buy or build?

[great white]

OK, I'm back again with another request for information. Given a budget of around $65,000, would it be better to buy a used boat or build one? Other info - access to semi-skilled labor at no cost; REALLY dislike FG; physical handicap limits mobility; fresh water; prefer EASY handling rig (junk or sliding gunter or ?); ease of maintenance; office space required...
I am naive about things boatish. Please assume I know little or nothing, those of you who don't already.
Eventually, I really do hope to wind up with a boat. Really.

[Venchka]

Hmmmmm...this should be interesting. Pondering. ;)

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D

[AngWood]

$65k Canadian?

[Wild Dingo]

I am naive about things boatish. Please assume I know little or nothing, those of you who don't already.Now once upon a time about 3 or so years back a statement like that would get one Bob Cleek to make his single word comment... ergo...

FUGGEDABOUDIT!

Well thats what he said to me but then he used bold AND italics too :rolleyes:

But a Bob Cleek I am not so I wont say anything of the sort... but be warned there are some contancerous ol pharts here who may just get up you about that mate!...

but dont take any bloody notice of em if you really mean this comment mate

Eventually, I really do hope to wind up with a boat. ReallyIF you REALLY want the boat of your dreams dont let any man woman critter stop you from attaining it!! seriously!... but with disabilities you got to consider a lot of factors so take your time with the decision

Okay now Ive lifted yer spirits I will sit back and wait for the fireworks to begin... well it will either happen or you'll get some great advice hopefully more good advice than negatives!

Go for it mate! :cool: Oi and keep us in the loop alright?! ;)

[ 11-15-2004, 12:13 PM: Message edited by: Wild Dingo ]

[great white]

Wow. Fast. Yeah, $65,000 Canadian. In a chunk. I am seldom depressed by negativity. After all, even the saltiest dog was once a helpless newbie who didn't know port from sherry.

[NormMessinger]

Being a fart somewhat older than Cleek though less experienced in all things boating, let me say this about that...

Depends on what you want to do. For me building is the essense of boating therefore the lack of water in Nebraska is a minor inconvience until the boat is finished. If you have water and want to go boating you have a completely different set of considerations. I doubt you can build as much a boat for $65K as you can buy but you will need someone honest, if blunt, like Cleek, who has brokered boats to tell you with authority.

[Venchka]

Did you say power or sail? Your list seems rather vague. Can you elaborate?

Learn to love fiberglass if shopping used. There are literally hundreds of boats for sale in places bordering the Great Lakes. Of course that doesn't get them to Manitoba. If you widen the search to include a decent collection of wood boats you have to go to either coast. Be prepared to spend 10% to 15% of the purchase price to have the boat hauled to you. Every foot of beam over 8'-6" and height over 10'-0" and pound of displacement costs extra for hauling.

Where are you planning to keep this boat?

Following Norm's path, when did you plan on using this boat?

A very quick and very dirty search of Yacht World For Sale yielded this boat in Manitoba in your price range.

http://newimages.yachtworld.com/1/2/1/8/3/1218304_2.jpg

You might want to build a boat yourself. smile.gif

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D

[ 11-15-2004, 01:14 PM: Message edited by: Venchka ]

[great white]

OK. Plan to use the boat to retire to. Anticipate spending a LOT of time either slow cruising with nowhere to be soon, or on the hook (I learned that here) watching sunsets for weeks at a time.
Boat will be Great Lakes, up into the French River system, down to Sault Ste. Marie.
REALLY don't like FG. Want to be able to mend or make on my own, without chemicals and boatyards as much as possible.
Sail is important, right up until they start charging for wind, but motor is geat for close quarters.
Shallow draft is a plus.
Extremely easy rig is essential
With regard to older and wiser heads, I am here because of them. Just hope they accept that I might not take negativity to heart.

[Venchka]

Here you go. An Atkin ketch in Victoria for $19,900 CDN. Could be riggred or re-rigged to suit you.


"Raireva" was built in Victoria in 1968 to Willliam Atkin's design # 562. She was featured as a "Classic Cruiser' in Pacific Yachting in April 1989. She is a beautiful vessel that is an 'eye catcher' wherever she goes and is in great condition, having been lovingly and beautifully restored by her current owner. Those of you who know Bill Atkin's designs know that this is a well balanced and sea kindly vessel that sails well and is a pleasure to behold. For those looking for a well found classic cruising sailboat, "Raireva" is well worthy of your consideration. She's less than 8'-6" wide and shallow draft. Makes the hauling cost a lot less.

Design #562 (http://www.boat-links.com/Atkinco/Sail/BarrieAnne.html)

http://newimages.yachtworld.com/1/3/0/3/9/1303953_1.jpg

Yacht World For Sale (http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/index.html.en)

Use the advanced search to home in on your dream boat.

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D

[bamamick]

O.K., so you've got what, $45,000.00US? for that kind of money you can get a nice Pearson 35, maybe even a 365 if you can find one. Of course those are glass boats. The thing about a wooden boat is that unless you can find one that someone else has mortgaged their houses on to restore or maintain and then decides to give away (which I admit sometimes does happen) then YOU are going to have to mortgage your house to restore or maintain one.

Restoration costs a minimum of $50.00 an hour (US). In most cases the material is relatively inexpensive but the labor, whew. Labor is not inexpensive. An example: Woodwing Yachts in Ontario owns two old 6 meters. They've got the boats for sale, but will only sell them if they can do the work. Estimated cost? Around $125,000CDN on a 36 foot dayboat.

I love wood. I own three pretty nice wooden boats. Given the criteria that you've quoted I would suggest looking at some glass alternatives, or if I did want a wooden boat I would look at one of the smaller dayboats that folks on here have built or owned. After all, starting small is not a bad idea. It would give you a great point of reference to see if you really wanted to move up.

Sorry if this sounds discouraging. By all means do get a boat and go sailing. It's a marvelous thing to do. Let us know what happens, please?

Mickey Lake

p.s., just as I was putting in my post Venchka put up his, and I must say that 'there's your boat'. That looks worth looking in to, that's for sure. Figure around $5-7000CND to truck it and commision it and it's still a bargain. Best of luck.

[ 11-15-2004, 01:41 PM: Message edited by: bamamick ]

[JimD]

My two cents worth: You might have trouble finding the boat you want already made. One of the nice things about building yourself is you can customize almost endlessly. That said if you do find the boat you want second hand and within budget you should buy it. I think in the final say people who build there own boats mostly do it because they want to build their own boats. Its no cheaper than buying second hand and can take years more time.

[Bruce Hooke]

A key question is when you say "build" do you mean you personally building the boat or do you mean paying someone to build the boat? If the former, I would only go that route if you are in love with the idea of BUILDING a boat. If you are not passionate about the building process it is going to be very hard to get through it. On the other hand, I don't think you are going to be able to pay someone to build a boat of the size you need for the amount of money you have, however, I am no expert on new boat prices so don't quote me on that! :D

[great white]

Man, that is one beautiful boat. Raireva, hey? Even like the name. Also like the split rig. How difficult would it be to handle sail? That is one beautiful boat! My only concern is space below deck. My wife is a photographer (digital - no darkroom) and I write. You experienced hands - would there be room for workspaces below?
That is a really, really nice boat! Some fine people grow up in Louisiana...

[Hwyl]

Originally posted by great white:
My wife is a photographer (digital - no darkroom) and I write....Have you read the Hiscock books? He too was a photographer. Their cruising was spartan to most tastes (including mine and my tastes are spartan).
If your wife has not yet read them, your Christmas present problem is herewith solved http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0071559639/qid=1100561777/sr=2-3/ref=pd_ka_b_2_3/102-1351428-8213700

Hiscock is a great read, and still has some relevance.

Good luck with your search.

[great white]

Hiscock book. Thanks. I'll get her a copy.

[High C]

If you buy used, you'll end up with 3 or 4 times as much boat for the money. $65,000 Canadian won't build a whole lot of boat.

A buddy of mine recently finished building a 48' LOD ketch. He spent almost $300,000 US in materials. :eek:

[High C]

Originally posted by High C:
If you buy used, you'll end up with 3 or 4 times as much boat for the money. $65,000 Canadian won't build a whole lot of boat.

A buddy of mine recently finished building a 48' LOD ketch. He spent almost $300,000 US on materials and helper labor. :eek: He provided maybe 3/4 of the labor himself.

Building is no way to save money.

[RodB]

With the kind of money you are talking about you could get into a Nonsuch 32' or even one of the larger models depending on the age... They are easy as pie to singlehand with only one sail!!! They are fiberglass but very well made, and there are lots of them in Canada since they were manufactured there. .. This design offers lots of room below decks and you could not get a more simple boat to operate. Just a suggestion for a simple design that is very functional if you like their looks.
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid146/p10e394a5d76007f6fa946184e035708b/f63edcdc.jpg

I agree with most here, building is half the fun but you must be tenacious, dedicated, and motivated. There are some great deals out there in WOODEN BOATS if one is patient, is careful, and takes one's time finding one... There are THOUSANDS of deals on FG BOATS and you can buy a pretty good sized one leaving yourself a bit of money for refurbishing....

Don't forget how long it will take to build a boat, and buying a used one, allows you to enjoy sailing much sooner, just don't buy one that requires a few years to fix it up. Do you think you will really get off to all of the process from planning, researching every aspect, materials research and acquisition, and finally building her... plus working hard to build her for a few years?...things to consider...

You could consider the 38 FOOT ATKIN DESIGNED "INGRID" which is a great double ender with lots of room. Many of these hulls were built in fiberglass and sold to folks that wanted to finish them themselves so many topsides have traditional styling. You could probably find one of these in your price range, but its not a centerboarder.
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid146/pbd672a44c3a0aa6b4355fe27fc89f273/f63ee4c7.jpg

Of course you couldn't go wrong with the Norwalk Islands Sharpie 31, which offers plenty of room, shallow draft, and is easy to build, plus could be easily built within your budget. This is a lot of boat for the money and would be a great choice... but you would have to build one as there are very few around. The plans for this design have not been around that long, however, there are lots of 26 footers. You could ask Mr. Kirby if any of the existing models are for sale.
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid146/p194dbf602ec4aa7d082a70aee1afd9af/f63ee4b3.jpg
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid146/pbe1aa5ee881d519d0a4021a1ffe79d69/f63edce2.jpg

Oh yes, the Norwalk Islands Sharpies site is... NIS (http://www.norwalkislandssharpie.org/)

RB

[ 11-16-2004, 03:40 PM: Message edited by: RodB ]

[rbgarr]

With that amount of money and special requirements (easy sailing rig, room for work, long term living aboard, canal and lock cruising) you might want to consider building a Bolger design such as the AS29 or AS39 (may be too big), for which you get quite a bit of boat for the money. Sometimes semi- or fully finished ones come on the market, too. There are some pictures of one here:

http://www.geocities.com/coastercoaster/index.html

You might also want to get a copy of his book "Boats with an Open Mind", and perhaps contact him.

[ 11-16-2004, 03:58 AM: Message edited by: rbgarr ]

[great white]

OK, I've got a lot of good advice here, and a lot of interesting ideas. Here's something for comment and advice.
Suppose I went with a Bolger-style boat - very cheap and easy to build - but bigger, big enough for us to both have offices, with something like junk rig.
Does that make sense?

[Venchka]

Or one of Jay Benford's sailing dories...

Benford Dories (http://www.benford.us/index.html?dories/index.html)

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D

[rbgarr]

Phil Bolger is the one to ask about his designs' strengths and weaknesses, and along with the question about the junk rig I'd ask about capability under power in a steep chop, given that you wish to sail the Great Lakes and river systems.

[ 11-16-2004, 01:22 PM: Message edited by: rbgarr ]

[great white]

Thanks, Wayne, I'll check that out.
Yes, Bolger is certainly the final source on his designs. And I realize that, for something like this, I'd have to commission him to draw up plans.
The question is, in the opinion of the nautical types here, is this a viable concept? Bolger's AS39 made an Atlantic crossing, which certainly seems to say the design handles weather.

[Venchka]

More on Bolger's Square Boats.

Square Boats (http://www.ace.net.au/schooner/as192939.htm#start)

If they please your eye, these boats pack a lot of living space into a given length.

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D

[great white]

True. And they are, according to what I can discover, fairly quick, easy and inexpensive to build. Tell the truth, I kind of like the square boat look.
Also a HUGE fan of Bolger's Sneakeasy. Love the whole retro kind of look. Too bad it's too big to take aboard. Oh, well. He has smaller boats that work well as tenders.

[RodB]

You should consider Bruce Kirby's NIS 43, or even having him scale the NIS 31 up etc...

These designs are very easy to build look good and offer lots of room inside.
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid147/pd320faf40b62ce3086b5454d5b2159d4/f63d0fc3.jpg

Good Luck,

RB

[great white]

Thanks RB. Checking him out now.

[Venchka]

Reality check. Looking at the NIS-43 I see more than $65k CDN in deck hardware, running & standing rigging, spars, ground tackle, windless and sails.

Here's a thought. Maybe good. Maybe bad. Suppose you found a nice safe capable day boat on a trailer for $10k CDN or less. A simple easily handled rig. A boat to poke around deserted coves every day. Sailing in new waters as the whim struck. Spend the other $55k CDN on renting cabins here and there with the boat in tow. You might even find a cabin to buy and park the boat at the dock in the front yard.

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D

[bainbridgeisland]

There are really only two reasons to build a boat:

First, because you enjoy building boats.

Second, because the boat you want is available no other way.

[great white]

Yeah, bainbridge, you're right about the buy/build thing. And I do have definite needs. I'm getting a lot of help here in deciding how best to meet them.
Wayne, you actually hit on my first plan. Which means, it was a terrific idea for me for a long time. I've got some reasons, maybe not great by anyone else's standards, why I want to be non-land based.
My wife and I talked for a very long time about this, and, despite our lack of experience, we both believe that we need a boat. One that's large enough to give us work space as well as living space.
With what I've learned on the Net, and the advice that I've gotten from people here and at other sites (about specifics like epoxy or oil-based waterproofing), I'm at a point where I need to start tossing out ideas that don't quite fit - even good ones - and working on what's left.
I do a lot of research in my work, ask dumb questions, try to avoid pissing people off, and then come up with something. That's what I'm doing here.
The rest of my life is going to start, anyway, on a boat. With any luck, it will end on the same boat. It's got to be the right boat, though, and the best way for me to dicide is to just ask questions and listen to answers.
Thanks. To everybody. And I'm still listening.

[yorgie]

Maybe it would be a good idea to start off with a reasonable priced motor-sailer,try it out on the lakes and canals of Ontario.Find out what you like and don't like and what your real needs are.When the dream boat comes up for sail you will be ready for it without having delay your nautical lifestyle.

Good luck and check out the west coast too,Chris.

[RodB]

Kirby once told me the budget for building a NIS 31, and it was way less than you plan on spending...the NIS 31 is very roomy and perhaps you could size her up a bit, still staying under say $35K to build a nice boat.

Building is really not in the cards unless you really want to build one. there are just too many available boats out there where someone else has taken the hit and you get a lot of boat for a very reasonable amount of money.

Additionally, the research is really fun and your gaining an education all the time. Keep looking at different boats and as you weed different designs out, you will be narrowing down what you want... and then the right design, both in budget and size will come into view.

RB

[ 11-17-2004, 12:38 AM: Message edited by: RodB ]

[PVanderwaart]

The Bolger AS-39, aka Loose Moose, was designed for a spec very close to yours, including the office space for two. I'm sure it's about the cheapest boat that would fit the spec. Since it sounds like you don't want a building project that would take a skilled builder over a man-year, but your budget does not extend to buying that man-year either. So my answer to your original question, is that you will probably have to "buy".

I think there have been at least three AS-39's completed. The original was destroyed by a lightning strike and subsequent fire. One was built by a professional, but the owner hated it. He felt it was like living in a tunnel. I'm not sure what he expected, but maybe he would have been happier with one of Reuel Parker's scows, which have big windows.

Parker claims that his liveabord scows offer the most living space for the least money of any boat you can build.
http://www.parker-marine.com/scow33page.htm
http://www.parker-marine.com/45scshoonerpage.htm
They are worth a look. Bolger has a design for a liveaboard scow schooner, too, which might be interesting.

Peter

[ 11-17-2004, 10:07 AM: Message edited by: PVanderwaart ]

[PVanderwaart]

Also, Bolger has some straight power sharpies that would be of interest, if you aren't interested in sail. They are the "state" series, named after battleships: Wyoming, Dakota, etc. Note that they are not a progression of the same notion. They share a concept of hull shape, but not a common purpose.

In general, a straight sailer or a straight power boat will be cheaper than a combination auxillary or motorsailer since you aren't paying for two types of propulsion. A low-speed power boat ought to be the cheapest, though so many are loaded down with teak as to squander the theoretical advantage.

[TimothyB]

Actually, Bolger's TANDEM is perfect for you I think.

It is a 2 masted junk schooner, sharpie hull, and very well designed. It's another evolutionary step ahead from the Advanced Sharpie series (AS29,39) and is 50' long, has a nice open wheelhouse, and definitely space for an office, as well as a double berth.

I'd highly recommend you ask about it. It is what they suggested to my wife and I when we were still considering cruising the canals of Europe, but wanted to get to Europe on our own bottom.

Oh and she drafts something like 20".

There is also the Bolger Catamaran DOUBLE EAGLE, which has some info up on the web about it here (http://www.thegreatsea.homestead.com/)

--T

PS: Here is the B&F contact info

Phil Bolger & Friends
fax (978) 282-1349

P.O. Box 1209
Gloucester, MA 01930

Don't be surprised if a woman calls you up. That's Susanne Altenberger, Phil's wife and cohort, as well as design partner.

[Venchka]

Boat Ownership Rule #1:

The total annual cost of operating, maintaining, hauling, storing, etc., etc., etc. increases exponentially with length and displacement.

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D

[great white]

Wayne - yeah, costs go up exponentially. I'm hoping that anchoring off shore a lot, eating rice and beans while I'm anchored off shore, and limiting my spending to buying rice and beans will take up the slack.
Has anyone got a link to any information about the Tandem? Sounds perfect.

[gert]

Buy now. Sail now.

But then I love building stuff and I have found the week-end sailing is interfeering with the building (aint life grand?). Sure wish I had 65k to buy material with though.

Speaking of expodential relationships, isn't there one about boat size and how often they get out?

[ 11-17-2004, 07:40 PM: Message edited by: gert ]

[JimD]

So we're looking for a design that will hold lots of rice and beans :D

[great white]

Gert - you got that right. Of course, that refers mostly to people that CARE whether they get out a lot. For me, a sailboat is a home that floats, not a recreational opportunity.
JimD - beans and rice are really nice.

[slacker]

My 2 cents...
Buy a big boat, build a small one. In my neck of the woods, there is no shortage of used cruisers for FAR less money than it would cost to build. FAR FAR LESS. This isn't the perfect example, but my last boat, a deep keel Columbia 22", cost me $1500 and $100 for a used kicker. We sailed it for 3 years without spending another penny beyond moorage.In the end, moorage alone was my reason for selling. Solid bang fer yer buck, but not exactly pretty. My pragmatism, however, goes right down the drain when entering the world of small craft... exponentially that is :D

Darren

[RodB]

Your last statement where you say a sailboat is just a home that floats and not an adventure says more than you think.

A good analogy... some guys get the lowest cost rifle and go hunting mainly to shoot a deer. As long as it fires a bullet towards the target they are satisfied...Others, enjoy everything involved with guns and hunting... and build a custom or semi-custom rifle, reload for accuracy,and then really enjoy using their well thought out "tool" to hunt with. They not only enjoy the experience of the hunt but also relish using their "perfect" rifle.

Maybe this boat thing is similar in many ways. I think most boat lovers would agree that taking out a vessel that you have passion for is an adventure...and walking away from her at days end is enjoyable...just taking a last look before going home. If you love boats and if you really are passionate about the one you end up with...that makes quite a difference in the overall experience. Its kind of one of those concepts where if you have to explain it, the person just won't understand.

If you like boats at all, you should find one that really appeals to you, one that causes a stir inside of you.

You seem to want the functional "shooter" without much regard to the rest of the experience. That said, you can really lower the cost of said vessel because you can consider so many different craft, and you certainly should buy a used boat simply because you will get so much bang for your buck.

I agree that one of the major reasons to build besides just enjoying the building process is to build something that is not available anywhere else...something that is perhaps your "dream concept" of a craft, something that you have passion for... all this makes the building process much more enjoyable and seemingly less work...a labor of love.

I am in the process of having Reuel Parker design a Presto boat for me...He is very knowledgable and could offer much incite in meeting any criteria in a design. He has lived aboard and cruised many years and has designed many types of boats that would work for you.

If your are seriously considering building a boat, you should list a detailed criteria and email him for a recommendation. First time boat builders could handle many of his designs, just learn how to use epoxy.

RB

[ 11-17-2004, 10:11 PM: Message edited by: RodB ]

[brian.cunningham]

If you want to build a large boat, start with a small one 1st, really.

You'll gain the skills and more importantly know what questions to ask later.

Try to build the with the same type of construction, cold moulded, lapstrake, stitch 7 glue.

If you really no nothing about boats, learn how to sail, and how to dock w/o crashing on the smaller boat.

[great white]

RodB... funny you should pick that analogy. I'm a former cop who shot competitively for a long time. With a "cheap" gun - a stock S&W K-38 w/ a 6"bbl that I carried daily. I was shooting against guys that used guns worth more than my car, from Gold Cup National Match .45's to stoned, buffed, tuned and polished single purpose Colt and S&W iron. I did OK, had fun. Never shot a deer, never tried to. I guess I'm trying to say I enjoyed what I could afford.
Same with the boat, I think. I have distinct needs that I can't compromise. Some of them are personal, relating to my handicap and my wife's; some are professional, relating to generating an income while we are afloat.
I am really prepared to learn to sail my home with professionalism and skill. I would be a fool not to. It's just that I can't afford to put esthetics before utility. My passion resides in a boat that, first of all, meets my needs.
I envy you commisioning Reuell Parker. I considered doing the same thing, something similar to his scow. But, for ease of construction, I have to go with Bolger's designs. I have access to some semi-skilled labor who will work for nothing, but I can't hold them for long. They all have families and jobs. My involvement would be to provide beer and pizza and plywood and encouragement. So, the sheer speed of getting a no-compromise boat that meets my needs into the water in the shortest time is something I have to consider.
Similarly, buying a used boat and modifying it to meet my needs entails, I think, too much time and expense.
Despite all the excellent advice from the people on this board, I don't think a used boat is going to make it for me. To modify it to meet my needs is going to take more time and money than I can afford.
I guess I'm saying that my question has been answered.
Build or buy?
Build.
Thanks.

[Venchka]

Cheers and good luck!

What will you do from November 1 to April or May 1 annually? Shovel snow in Winnepag? smile.gif Or run down the Mississippi and take in Mardi Gras? :D

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D

[great white]

Snow? What's that? No, I want to do my best to avoid getting cold. Had enough of that.
Mardi Gras sounds great. And the Mississippi is a name to conjure with, isn't it? Shades of Huck and Tom and Injun Joe...
Thanks for the help, everybody...

[RodB]

Great White,

Everything you said makes perfect sense, dealing with your limitations, etc... I applaud your dream and determination to make it happen...However... I do not agree that a design you select cannot be quite appealing and easy to build at the same time. I certainly never meant to put aesthetics before utility. Having built my 18 foot stitch and glue flyfishing skiff over the past two years, I certainly can say that the main underlying theme was building exactly what I wanted in a flyfishing boat from a custom removable trolling motor bracket to a custom mounted compass in the console to custom flyrod holders under each sheer deck. All these touches didn't cost much, just a little labor and I got her laid our exactly like I planned in the beginning.

I fail to see much difference in the construction of many of the Bolger, Kirby, and Parker designs mentioned here... they involve plywood, taped seams. etc...plus there are many more designs like the larger sharpies of Parker's or Stanbaugh's that are very easy to construct, offer very shallow draft, and are easily handled. I would hope that aesthetics plays some part of your equation and of course the design must meet your needs, that goes without saying. I don't mean to be negative towards Bolger designs, its just that there are many other designs that are easy to build, have reasonable building costs, and can be laid out to meet virtually anyone's needs.

BTW, Reuel Parker is very reasonable in modifying an existing set of plans (like an interior or sailplan), you might check with him if you are interested in any of his designs. Finally, I would suggest taking a look at Parker's 36 and 39 foot versions of the Egret Sharpie which are quite seaworthy cruisers, easily handled, easily built, offer low cost to build and offer plenty of room. The 39 footer could be built quite reasonably and would offer lots of room below decks. These designs have quite nice lines but are really quite utilitarian as vessels and the sailplans are easy to handle.

Good luck, enjoy the build.

RB

[ 11-18-2004, 03:44 AM: Message edited by: RodB ]

[great white]

RodB - Another fly fisherman! Way to go! Eventually, we'll educate all those people who churn the water to froth trying to beat the fish to death with chunks of metal or plastic.
The different designers are all a whole lot smarter than I. The reason I am leaning toward Bolger's square box is that it is right angles - no calculation, no beveling, no fiddly bits.
Right angles mean that fitting cabinets, for example, requires far less beveling and test-fitting and measuring. The only angle involved is the slight arc of the topsides. It's a small saving of time... which is money... but small, incremental savings add up. And they add up to me actually getting my boat, in a timely and cost-effective manner.
Reuel Parker, craftsman that he is, spends a lot of time planing, sanding, fitting pieces. And his excellent designs reflect this care.
The only thing sadder than not building this boat, would be only building half of the boat. I have a limited time window for my labor and a fixed amount of cash, and I have neither the ability to do the work myself nor the cash to hire a crew to finish the boat. Therefore, I have to settle on a design that goes together fast, easy and tight, and within my budget.
No fiddly bits. A lumberyard boat.
The Bolger builds on the web all seem straightforward and linear. And all of the saving of time and effort that stitch and glue embodies are available, in fact, indicated, for many of his designs.
If I get more money later, then potentially, I will be able to afford a different boat - one that reflects a different philosophy.
Maybe even Reuel Parker's.

[TimothyB]

Sounds like you have yourself a project GW. :)

Phil Bolger doesn't have an email addie that he shares, and he doesn't have a website. You have to FAX them as they don't publish their phone number.

But they are pretty prompt about replying. When I had questions I got replies in a day or less. I believe once you commision them and hand/mail them a check you do indeed get their phone number. I didn't end up commisioning a design from them for a number of reasons, including a change in cruising plans.

Oh and if you suddenly realize you've been talking to Susanne for 2 hours about boat stuff, don't say I didn't warn you. smile.gif

--T

[great white]

Thanks, TimothyB. And I have been warned. But it sounds like two hours spent talking to her would be an education. Looking forward to it.

[NormMessinger]

Great White, I like a guy that says, "I did okay." My money is on your having out shot the dudes who are bragging about how well they did. Life is like that, in my limited experience.

[rbgarr]

I thought the Bolger e-mail address was pcb@shore.net

[great white]

Thanks, Norm. One thing I learned when I was a cop is that on any day, everybody is somebody's meat. Besides, I always looked at it that I was really competing with myself.
Gonna check out the address, rbgarr. Thanks.

[RodB]

Great White,

I admire that you have friends or family that will build a boat for you. I have only one friend that would even consider building a boat...all the rest think the amount of work is "nuts"...They think I'm crazy just building along and enjoying it so much. They see it mostly as a lot of work for those with lots of patience and too much time on their hands.

Flyfishing is the best (I also bowhunt with a recurve... which has lots of similarities), I decided to build a boat simply because a flyfishing craft didn't exist to suit me. I grew tired of fishing the Texas coast with the wrong boat so I conceptualized what would work and had Tracy Obrien design it for me. Tracy only designed the hull, I pretty much planned out all the rest to functionally suit flyfishing. I researched most systems on the boat by talking to experienced boating enthusiasts and fishermen narrowing down the most notable features to incorporate into the works.

It has been a blast I hope to finish painting by early spring. Good luck I wish you well on your project. Keep us posted.

RB

[ 11-18-2004, 05:38 PM: Message edited by: RodB ]

[great white]

RodB... what choices did you make for the fly fishing boat? Love to hear about it.
Yeah, I've built up a few relationships with good people, we've worked together in complex situations. They are good with their hands, they even have... like... tools, for crying out loud!
I tried bowing, but I have problems with both shoulders - rotator cuff, old sports injuries, and I can't draw more than about thirty pounds, tops. Which is like... girl scout... But I really like the thought of bowhunting. It requires more skill than shooting.
Great luck with the boat, and lemme know how it comes out. (Maybe post a picture or two, and I'll do the same as things go along. Deal?)

[RodB]

Flyfishing special features...

Totally clean deck with absolutely nothing to hang the flyline when casting. This includes some blind drilled stainless flanges made my a gunsmith friend of mine, that allow the large "L" bracket for my transom mount trolling motor to be removed quickly leaving only 4 threaded holes that are a bit less than flush with the deck...a totally clean deck.

A flush Accon pop-up cleat at the front "V" of the bow to keep the deck clean for flyfishing.

Flush mounted push pole brackets for holding the push pole down while underway, but they push down flush when you are fishing and using the push pole.

Sheer decks with a width of one foot, for easy walking around the boat when fishing.

Two pvc tubes installed on each side of the boat under the front deck so that you can carry two rigged flyrods on each side, reel portion of rods hung in fabricated rodholders with shock cord tie downs.

Poling platform over the outboard to allow for one person to see fish well and to pole the boat in the flats, while the man on the front deck does the fishing/casting...

These are some of the special features.

I have some photos that I can post if you want.

RB

[great white]

Love to see them. Sounds like you made some good decisions.

[rbgarr]

Check out the ideas on this 40' junk-rigged liveaboard: http://yachtworld.com/core/listing/pl_boat_full_detail.jsp?slim=quick&boat_id=1249892&units=Feet&currency=USD&access=Pub lic&listing_id=1709&url=

Search yachtworld.com under Covey for it if the link doesn't work.

[great white]

That's a fine looking boat. One thing I really like about getting all the specs like that is that it gives me an idea of some of the stuff I have to have on my boat.
I was just reading a library book on yacht building and the author said what I was trying to say all this long time - "Like any other construction, faster is cheaper." Faster is no fiddly bits. Faster is a box. I could learn to love an ugly boat that did everything I needed it to do, AND that I could afford.
Of course, I'm not at all salty. Herreshoff is probably sending demons after me right now, for saying that.

[Venchka]

Originally posted by great white:
- "Like any other construction, faster is cheaper." Faster is no fiddly bits. Faster is a box. I could learn to love an ugly boat that did everything I needed it to do, AND that I could afford.
Kinda like the red neck axiom: "Go ugly early" :D

If it works for you, do it!

One more Bolger design to ponder, possibly stretched and rerigged by Mr. Bolger.

WoodenBoat, Dec. 2000, #157, page 36. Design # 639. A shoal draft, leeboard, water ballasted, trailerable, gaff schooner rig sharpie. The rig probably needs to be redone for you. A cat ketch comes to mind. The fact that you can take it with you in the winter without spending a fortune on boatyards pays dividends in the long run.

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D

[ 11-19-2004, 10:09 PM: Message edited by: Venchka ]

[RodB]

Hey Great White... Not wanting to hijack your post... but your asked for it...

Here we go :::Flyfishing features on a boat

The Trolling motor bracket that removes allowing a flush deck. http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid147/pe6ca6485371ca19abc8df24039859f59/f63520e4.jpg

Note the nice and wide sheer decks for ease of movement around the boat when fishing.
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid147/p2dc0745227e826b9f6c94db87b6c6b6b/f63520e1.jpg

Note the sponsons on the back of the boat for keeping her level in really shallow waters when flyfishing for Redfish and Speckled Trout. When you gun the engine the boat stays relatively level so that you don't hit the bottom with the outboard jet pump housing. The sponsons also allow for easy stepping into and out of the water for wade fishing.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid147/p25c62b82e46f6bd187063a58b3c4a9e6/f6351219.jpg
I tried to get this image placed first but here it is...you get the idea.


Here is the front deck anchor locker hatch... I specifically wanted flush hinges in keeping with the flush deck theme when casting the flyline... Anchor locker keeps anchor out of the way...
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid147/p5a8254817131f1870687cacff933535b/f635121c.jpg

Better illustration of flyrod holders.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid147/pd23c03af5257e759926ed341fcf64bea/f635121d.jpg

My buddy's boat set up more or less like mine will be... we had his built along the parameters of mine, I just took longer to get done. We didn't like how the bow turned out, they didn't follow our drawings, the bow is too pointed. This little 16 footer has a 60" bottom and probably weights about 550 lbs.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid147/p781daf2131663d07bd816adeb7cfcdf0/f6351221.jpg

Common method to tie up to the push pole (jammed into the soft bottom) when bone fishing or Tarpin fishing that allows for quick release... you just come back later and get the pole after landiing the Tarpin.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid147/pcffbd9a33ac0da2abf4ef4b79aa8d875/f6351213.jpg

How my boat will be set up for the most part, I was just able to incorporate several custom features like drink holders, flush mounted compass in the top center of console, anchor locker, etc...
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid147/p23411d4bf2a250ddd05a5cbc6fdef3c6/f63520d9.jpg

Hope you enjoyed the show.

RB

[ 11-19-2004, 10:22 PM: Message edited by: RodB ]

[great white]

Wayne... thanks for the info. The more I learn about Bolger, the more I like his work. He's got a pretty "me" philosophy... or, since I have no ego, I'm getting a Bolger view of things. BTW, I love the idea of water ballast. Lets you build light, and still have self-righting.
Cat ketch is a first choice. It gives more interior room for a given square footage of sail carried, without having two masts intruding on the inside. And I think that I'm gonna get a T-shirt that says "If it works for you, do it!"
Rod... Great work! I am such a HUGE fan of natural wood. See, that's what I'm talking about. You get something that WORKS for you, and it's bound to look good.
It says about jet drive - is it gonna be an outboard unit or are you going I/O? The platform over the outboard is a good idea. My only question, and this may not apply to salt water, is about when you are trying to stay low.
I usually go after bass and pike, and I know that when I'm casting from shore, I try to crouch my oversize butt down as much as possible. They see altogether too well for me to go waving my hairy arms around in the bright light. If you have the same situation, do you have enough clearance that your back cast won't foul on the platform?
Oh, and about hijacking the post... don't worry. This is all good.

[RodB]

The poling platform is mainly for poling shallows in coastal flats where one guy poles and the other flyfishes. When Bass fishing, I will be installing seat bases both on the front and rear deck, and use the trolling motor as usual in Bass fishing (seat bases installed flush). The trolling motor is not used in the salt water as it scares the fish away terribly...We don't seem to have that much trouble with Bass seeing us as many of our lakes do not have extremely clear water.

I also like natural wood but that won't be the case here. The Texas sun is quite hot and the boat will be painted a very light grey on the decks and interior to avoid too much brightness on the eyes and to protect the epoxy from getting too hot. All surfaces exposed to the weather have been glassed with 6oz fiberglass cloth and will be primed and painted. There will be a nice non-skid pattern crafted but that is that.

Propulsion... The motor is a two stroke 90hp Yamaha outboard mounted on a special mechanical jackplate made by the outboard jet manufacturers. This jackplate allows for very quick change over from prop to jet pump via an indexing pin (takes about 45 minutes). The jet pump will be used in shallow waters and the prop when appropriate like deeper waters such as Key West. BTW, the bottom of the boat was shaped especially to optimize performance with the Jet pump... which is also great for a prop.

Some dimensions: my hull is 18' LOA discounting the sponsons, the bottom width is 66 inches. The beam is 84 inches. Approx weight of the hull is 800 lbs. One of the most important features of a saltwater flyfishing boat is that she is easy to pole around.

The best along these lines are boats such as the Maverick Miage by Hewes Corp. Oh yeah, the cost of the Maverick HPX is about $16K with no trailer or motor, just the hull... which weights about 489 lbs, she is just a tad over 17 feet long and poles like a dream. I built a complete boat with all such features including motor and galvanized trailer for less than that.My boat is a bit wider and heavier than their 17 footer and has a bit more freeboard, which will cause more wind resistance. Poling will be a bit more work but I can carry 3-4 folks easy and my boat has all the wonderful characteristics of wood.

RB

[ 11-20-2004, 12:45 AM: Message edited by: RodB ]

[great white]

You really thought things out. I just wish you could leave that wood exposed. I'm not a fan of varnish, but there's something about wood grain on a boat... oh well. I can always do the interior of mine. I predict a lot of fish are going to wish they kept their mouth shut after that baby hits the brine.

[Jay Greer]

It has been said that,"He who listens to too much good advise, ends up making other peoples mistakes!" Sooo
I won't say wheather you should or shouldn't build your own boat. Having built a few and repaired many for fun and profit, I will say that there is a great amount of satisfaction to be gained from creating your own dream of wood and sweat! I would offer this small amount of advise. Check out "Sensible Cruising Designs" by L. Francis Herreshoff. These are time proven practical boats that take the amature builder into consideration. If nothing else, the designs are food for thought and the author's comments are of a very practical if not poetic nature. "The Common Sense of Boat Design" by Herreshoff is another good read!
Best of luck to you!
Jay Greer

[great white]

Thanks, Jay. As a matter of fact, the first design that I got all worked up about was a Herreschoff (I have such a hard time spelling that!) There is something so sleek and beautiful about his work, it almost seems as if the boats are alive. They are DEFINITELY "she's"!
I admit that I am excited at the thought of building (or watching friends build) MY boat... one that makes the compromises that I choose. And, if I had time and money, I would want something as sleek and altogether beautiful as his designs... or many other designers, historical and contemporary.
Alas, I have to make, as my first criteria, low cost and short build time. Everything else has to arise from that. If I were a younger man, even forty, I would perhaps have a different set of standards. But reality always gets in the way of a good dream, so I swallow that and look for the designs that I can plug into my particular set of needs.
And Bolger does it for me.
As I said in an earlier post, when something simply WORKS, it has a beauty that, to me at least, far surpasses all the currently commercial filigree, varnished teak veneer, flashy seat cushion covers and fiberglass moldings in the world.
I guess, in the final analysis, I'm a work-boat kind of guy. And, while I may admire the craftsmanship and creativity of the true sailors who populate this board, I'll settle down in my ragged cutoffs on the deck of my old-shoe of a boat and raise a beer to each and every one of you who have the time, money and vision to create art, in tribute.

[Wild Dingo]

Not gonna comment much gonna keep this succinct and to the point... ie: no long winded post ;)

Gotta agree given your criteria with the scow idea...{PVanderwaart halfway down page 1) Seems just right :cool:

[Venchka]

Originally posted by Wild Dingo:
Not gonna comment much gonna keep this succinct and to the point... ie: no long winded post ;)
:cool: This is a first? :cool:

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D