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Paul Pless
01-10-2012, 11:19 AM
Perhaps we could address the forum rule against selling stuff and self promotion again, specifically with regards to designers and naval architects. There seems to be few enough of them (designers) working specifically in wood these days and offering a little encouragement and support would be a good thing, yet the forum rules, even though generally unenforced, discourage such. I know personally a few naval architects that would like to suggest designs to some threads in the Designs section of the forum, yet they have refrained from doing so, so as to not break the rules. While at the same time, dozens of other forum members, my self included, cut & paste copyrighted materials* to such threads.


* copyrighted materials: I believe this falls under fair use laws though and is not a violation of those copyrights. . .

Ian McColgin
01-10-2012, 12:37 PM
The problem with changing the rules is that some with commercial interests will overdo it while others will feel slighted. This can spill into the publication side in much the same way as there were some hard feelings a year or two back when WoodenBoat did a bit on kit boats without mentioning a long time advertiser or two.

One way to partially get at the info, a sort of adjunct to the articles we've had about some designers and builders, would be to have some focused articles by some builders and designers that address some aspect of what they do and why. These might involve follow-ups from colleagues, competitors or rivals. One hopes disagreements can be well and objectivly stated but even if vigorously put, as has happened in the magazine in the past, the dialogue is very helpful to those of us who read our ways through. I urge the editors to look back at some of the early spats, like contending notions of responsible preservation, with a view as to how to facilitate such "reasoning together".

I certainly hope that the woodenboat community is robust enough to take a little dialectical conflict.

Sailor
01-13-2012, 01:56 PM
I agree there should be some sort of "classifieds" or Promotional venue in the forum. Perhaps a section dedicated to advertisments with a classified section. By restricting some of the posts that people are making as was mentioned above I think we are strangling our already small family.

Yeadon
01-29-2012, 10:43 AM
Perhaps we could address the forum rule against selling stuff and self promotion again, specifically with regards to designers and naval architects. There seems to be few enough of them (designers) working specifically in wood these days and offering a little encouragement and support would be a good thing, yet the forum rules, even though generally unenforced, discourage such. I know personally a few naval architects that would like to suggest designs to some threads in the Designs section of the forum, yet they have refrained from doing so, so as to not break the rules. While at the same time, dozens of other forum members, my self included, cut & paste copyrighted materials* to such threads.


* copyrighted materials: I believe this falls under fair use laws though and is not a violation of those copyrights. . .

There's a difference between shameless self-promotion by a designer, and a designer using their designs as an example to illustrate a point. This makes sense to me. And you're saying both are discouraged?

Any chance we can get a Wooden Boat Magazine staffer to give their take on this? Where is that bat signal button again?

Yeadon
01-29-2012, 10:49 AM
There's a difference between shameless self-promotion by a designer, and a designer using their designs as an example to illustrate a point. This makes sense to me. And you're saying both are discouraged?

Any chance we can get a Wooden Boat Magazine staffer to give their take on this? Where is that bat signal button again?

Though ... come to think of it, you have Hvalsoe, Noyes, Welsford, Kurylko, Michalak, Todd Bradshaw, and probably other designery-types that I'm missing right now .. they all successfully navigate the situation.

Maybe there's not such a problem. Dunno.

johnw
01-29-2012, 04:38 PM
I rather liked the way Roger Long solicited advice on one of his designs here. Watching something in the process of design was quite nice.

Eric Hvalsoe
01-31-2012, 02:32 PM
Over time I've offered on the forum a few thoughts on design, construction, etc. Inevitably it is self referential to my livelyhood, and very often to my own personal boat, which is also a 'commercial' product. Mmm. Friends have suggested sneaking in those clever links directly to my web site, which makes a lot of sense, but also strikes me as nearing the edge of the non commercial spirit of the thing. I see other people sometimes do this, a small number of folks on a regular basis. I tend not make a particular effort to steer folks to my web site or business activity. When I see this done by others, it can seem a bit jarring and out of place, and sometimes bothers me. Maybe there is information on a member's business site, which is pertinent to the forum discussion, which is not a blatent sales pitch. The boundary can get a little grey. If folks want to know more about my business, I should have some of that information in my personal profile.


The idea of a discreet 'classified', or services listed section, is interesting. But again, maybe personal profiles provide this function, in which case, generic links in a post to the member's web site or business activity, is, . . . in poor taste?

Would I like to see some business come my way as a result of my participation in the forum . . . , well hell, sure. Is it a significant factor - not that I can easily document.


How much this matters, I dunno.

Eric Hvalsoe
01-31-2012, 02:42 PM
You know, thinking a little more about this, I have occasionally posted about my business activity. I'd like to say it was in the spirit of 'hey this is cool, it is pertinent and of interest on the forum, people will enjoy it'.

A greycoat perhaps.

Carl Cramer
01-31-2012, 03:27 PM
I like that thought, Eric. Some of the best ideas come from designers trying to earn their way. The Forum and WBM would be worse off without them.

Let's permit the "hey, this is cool, it is pertinent, and of interest on the Forum, people will enjoy it" prevail as the guiding spirit.

Any dissenters?

Thanks, Carl

Ian McColgin
01-31-2012, 03:43 PM
I think Carl has in mind about how folk do it now - maybe a hair more detail. There's a difference between sharing a nice thing and drumming for business and I think we'll see if it were to happen. The folk involved already are sure to stay on the right side and perhaps in increased clarity will make some others less reticent.

Wooden Boat Fittings
01-31-2012, 04:25 PM
Well, I've followed Eric's guideline in Post #8 for as long as I've been a member -- offering information on something that I though was pertinent to the particular discussion to provide additional information or otherwise help enlarge on it, even though it was also something to do with the business. On one or possibly two occasions, when I haven't been entirely sure I wasn't breaching the guidelines, I emailed Scot to draw his attention to the post and ask whether he'd prefer I pull it. But since he said it/they were okay, I assume my reading of the policy was okay too. (One occasion that I remember was when I was considering adding a rigging cleat to our product offering, and asked people about their use of such an item -- this was in the nature of 'business research' I suppose, but their were no objections from Scot or anyone else that I was ever aware of.)

Mike

Ben Fuller
01-31-2012, 05:20 PM
I agree there should be some sort of "classifieds" or Promotional venue in the forum. Perhaps a section dedicated to advertisments with a classified section. By restricting some of the posts that people are making as was mentioned above I think we are strangling our already small family.

What we have done on the Qajaq USA forum is have a commercial forum which allows people to post anything from boats for sale to services. Problem is that this might compete with our hosts need for some advertising revenue to keep all of this running.

pcford
01-31-2012, 07:54 PM
Though ... come to think of it, you have Hvalsoe, Noyes, Welsford, Kurylko, Michalak, Todd Bradshaw, and probably other designery-types that I'm missing right now .. they all successfully navigate the situation.

Maybe there's not such a problem. Dunno.

c'mon. yeadon is the most inveterate self-promoter on this board. you guys can't see what is in front of your face.

Gold Rock
01-31-2012, 08:15 PM
Eric's post in #7 explains my sentiment perfectly and represents exactly how I feel the professionals should participate in this forum. I was the patternmaker at Port Townsend Foundry for seven years and felt the urge on countless occasions to say, "We have that,.." or "we can do that..". If I'd been allowed to pitch my business, I recognize that my credibility as a casual participant would have been compromised. My input would have the taint of "agenda" to it. At least that's how I think of it. This isn't, perhaps, the most eloquent arguement, but this forum's purely egalitarian nature is rare on the internet and it's huge number of participants validates it as it is.

davebrown
01-31-2012, 09:48 PM
I say allow anything that helps them survive. Ain't it hard enough for them?

Garret
01-31-2012, 09:53 PM
Eric's post in #7 explains my sentiment perfectly and represents exactly how I feel the professionals should participate in this forum. I was the patternmaker at Port Townsend Foundry for seven years and felt the urge on countless occasions to say, "We have that,.." or "we can do that..". If I'd been allowed to pitch my business, I recognize that my credibility as a casual participant would have been compromised. My input would have the taint of "agenda" to it. At least that's how I think of it. This isn't, perhaps, the most eloquent arguement, but this forum's purely egalitarian nature is rare on the internet and it's huge number of participants validates it as it is.

Nicely said - but I personally would feel that your professional opinion carries weight. I'm sure it is a tough line to dance, but as an amateur, I certainly appreciate the input from the pros here!

Gold Rock
01-31-2012, 10:14 PM
Just like the other tradesfolk on this forum, I'm always happy to offer my input. But just in a generic context. I don't think there's any diminishment of value in this regard.

Yeadon
02-01-2012, 12:18 AM
c'mon. yeadon is the most inveterate self-promoter on this board. you guys can't see what is in front of your face.

Correct.

shade of knucklehead
02-01-2012, 05:48 AM
I post about things I do at my yard, but have only posted a link to our website when I first introduced myself to the community. I try to post pictures that are on photobucket instead of ones hosted on my server or on my website so that they don't link to my website. I am not here to get customers, I am here because talking about boats is almost as fun as messing about in them.

I am a member of another forum, one totally unrelated to boats, and in my profile on that forum I list my website. Is that something frowned upon here?

Scot
02-01-2012, 06:00 AM
I am a member of another forum, one totally unrelated to boats, and in my profile on that forum I list my website. Is that something frowned upon here?

A simple link in your signature is fine. It's when folks make an "ad" out of it, lines, and lines, in their signature, that pushes the boundaries of this being a non-commercial place.

-Scot

Chris Coose
02-01-2012, 07:04 AM
I don't make any money on the referrals I get through the forum. Wouldn't consider them as "client" status anyways.

Dick Wynne
02-01-2012, 07:41 AM
A simple link in your signature is fine. It's when folks make an "ad" out of it, lines, and lines, in their signature, that pushes the boundaries of this being a non-commercial place.

-Scot

Good to have that clarified Scot. My links are to two "not-for-profit" and one "non-profit"...

Eric Hvalsoe
02-01-2012, 11:17 AM
A simple link in your signature is fine. It's when folks make an "ad" out of it, lines, and lines, in their signature, that pushes the boundaries of this being a non-commercial place.

-Scot

You are referring to a simple link on the signature of a post, rather than only in personal profile information? If that is what you mean, that seems fair. I don't object either way. As you have reinforced, I find signatures with trailing business hype irritating and offensive.



I rather liked the way Roger Long solicited advice on one of his designs here. Watching something in the process of design was quite nice.

This was an interesting episode. To be honest I first thought what the heck was going on with this fella - soliciting design advice for a commission (?). What is he trying to get away with? I then began to understand what an impressive background Roger has. Roger
was apparently probing an area somewhat outside of his expertise in terms of small craft design and traditional rigs. To his credit there was no hidden agenda. Roger appears to be comfortable enough in his own skin, and with his own professionalism, so as to create a wide open discussion, on the internet. I hope my assesment is fair and in no way insulting. Roger's thread created a quality discussion. This is social media turning the office down the hall, or your grandfather's friendly advice local hardware store, on it's head. The lines between amateur and professional blur in this world of communication and information gathering practically without limits. On line personalities are not strangers. How do I buy a boat, how do I build a boat, how do I fix a boat? All on a chat forum . . . It still sometimes strikes me as bizarre.

Garret
02-01-2012, 11:56 AM
You are referring to a simple link on the signature of a post, rather than only in personal profile information? If that is what you mean, that seems fair. I don't object either way. As you have reinforced, I find signatures with trailing business hype irritating and offensive.

This was an interesting episode. To be honest I first thought what the heck was going on with this fella - soliciting design advice for a commission (?). What is he trying to get away with? I then began to understand what an impressive background Roger has. Roger
was apparently probing an area somewhat outside of his expertise in terms of small craft design and traditional rigs. To his credit there was no hidden agenda. Roger appears to be comfortable enough in his own skin, and with his own professionalism, so as to create a wide open discussion, on the internet. I hope my assesment is fair and in no way insulting. Roger's thread created a quality discussion. This is social media turning the office down the hall, or your grandfather's friendly advice local hardware store, on it's head. The lines between amateur and professional blur in this world of communication and information gathering practically without limits. On line personalities are not strangers. How do I buy a boat, how do I build a boat, how do I fix a boat? All on a chat forum . . . It still sometimes strikes me as bizarre.

I participate in another forum that is 80% software developers & 20% end users who do some of their own programming. The amount of sharing between both groups is absolutely amazing. I've seen (actually - have done it myself) where people will share pages & pages of code to help another developer or user do what they need to do. If one applies the "what goes around, comes around" philosophy, it makes great sense, as I have both given & benefited there - just as I have here. Though I must admit I benefit more than give here.....

IMO - no one can know all the answers to all questions. Of course a pro posting "Is it OK to use mild steel screws below the waterline on a boat that will be sailing around the world" might give a potential customer pause, but sharing more detailed/esoteric info is a wonderful thing.

As long as the environment is supportive of people learning, this works well. On the other forum, anyone who treats someone badly for asking a "stupid" question is warned once & banned the second time - so there are no flame wars.

ChaseKenyon
02-08-2012, 01:49 PM
A simple link in your signature is fine. It's when folks make an "ad" out of it, lines, and lines, in their signature, that pushes the boundaries of this being a non-commercial place.

-Scot-
Being an ancient member or plank owner of a number of musical instruments forums I would like to relate one system that I personally like.

The my profile tab is a profiles tab.You can choose your profile or dealers list or makers list both of which drop down to guitars violins and family drums and so on.

I can't remember all the designers nor can I the builders we have on the forum. That makes it difficult to find and contact them when I want to.

I so wish for a list of designers so I can click on their profile and find an email or website.
We are a small dedicated world community. The forum has become the primary link for many of us.

As a community we have a vast amount of Knowledge about many things not just boats. It would be nice to have a cars list to find Ian for BMW stuff and some might want to find me for Jaguar stuff.

Some might want to find folks knowledgeable about Bartenders or Ski boats or Oregon type white water boats.

If we had a place for the lists I would gladly search the thread archives to start it with the folks I can find on various topics. Then I could start a thread about each list and who it is for and who should add themselves to said list.

No advertising just a way to find the profiles you need and then read them and go to home sites. Yes many would have to greatly improve on their profiles but I feel that should be done anyway.

Chase

Scot
02-08-2012, 03:31 PM
Chase:

Have you used the CONTACTS under Community (it's on the smaller toolbar) to add folks to your contact list?

-Scot