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Gold Rock
01-08-2012, 01:39 AM
I'm a great fan of the mag as it currently exists; I've had a subscription for at least the last ten years and was a regular newsstand purchaser for many more prior to that. The how-to content is always my favorite and is currently well represented. My preferences are distinctly toward the traditional end of the spectrum. Plank on frame is a ten, vacuum bagged cold molders are a two; that kind of thing. Product reviews are also high on my list. And again, trad over mod is my preference. A new brand of caulking irons? Love it. The latest battery operated carbon fiber application device? Pass. I also like articles recounting interesting uses of wooden boats. Trips taken, experiences experienced, adventures had, etc. That's about it. As to the shanty boat article. Loved it. Harry Bryan is right up my alley philosophically and practically. Great piece.

Yeadon
01-08-2012, 11:50 AM
Interesting. I don't actually read WB on a monthly/periodic basis, though I occasionally buy a copy from the newstand. (I like what it represents, I guess.) I use WB mainly as a reference tool. When I need a how-to on a various topic, I search the index then go find the magazine with the article I need. I have stacks of old issues, though it would be easier for me to just buy the electronic version of your archives.

Leatherneck
01-08-2012, 04:15 PM
I second what Gold Rock said: I am interested mainly in reproducing the old methods, rather than practicing current methods, which admittedly may be better in some ways. But not in ways I think most wooden boat enthusiasts care too much about. For the modern thinkers, there's an abundance of plastic out there.

Tom

J. Dillon
01-08-2012, 05:26 PM
Matt, It's pretty hard to appeal to everybody but so far you're doing well. (IMHO) I'd like to see a continuining yarn ( each issue) on small ( 20' or less)boat cruising. Such an article has to be well written, many pix and with all the goofs the best of us commit. Also how those particular cruisers improvised. I recently picked up an out of date issue of Small Craft Advisor # 72 that had detailed accounts of their Texas raid.

I'd also like to echo about doing things yourself especially home made gadgets and gilhickeys. I think old Yachting magazine had something like that.

Did you ever consider going monthly ?

JD

MPM
01-08-2012, 06:34 PM
Indeed, Jack: Its impossible to please everybody. Who would have thought 35 years ago that the binding theme of "wooden boat" would generate such a diverse group. That's our basic strength, and our basic challenge, which is why it's so nice to see so much opinion in one place.

A little preview of the May issue: It features a piece by a young man who built a 14' Bill Garden-designed pram, and sailed, rowed, and motored it from Sioux City, Iowa, to Florida, across the Okeechobee, and up the East Coast to Freeport, Maine. We're looking for more good adventures in small wooden boats....
--Matt Murphy

fishrswim
01-18-2012, 07:06 PM
I've been a subscriber to Wooden Boat for about 12 years, and I devour every issue as soon as it comes in, including the ads. I usually read it cover to cover before I put it down. I have every issue on shelves in my garage / workshop. I go back and look articles up when I need a tip or info.

Boating history and articles about designers and builders are especially interesting to me.

I was new to boating when I started my subscription and my boating education is heavily dependent on the magazine. I confess that I have four boats and only one is wood, but I love wooden boats.

Keep up the good work. Some day I plan to have my new wherry in Launchings and Relaunchings.

I do have a quibble tho. IMHO you could / should deep six The Bilge on Wooden Boat Forum. It's not in keeping with the civility and class of Wooden Boat. I'd bet that most of the folks there never read the magazine. I think that many of them are just looking for another place to vent.

Thanks again,
The Old fisherman

johngsandusky
01-19-2012, 09:03 AM
Seconded.

George Jung
01-19-2012, 10:35 AM
Nice new section, should be a wonderful addition to 'the family'. But I have to admit bewilderment at those who, even in the safe confines of this nook of the forum, feel compelled to protest the Bilge. It must really irritate you!
So here's a suggestion - don't go there! For those folks so inclined, it provides a locale in which to 'vent', discuss anything to their hearts desire, and best of all - it's all down wind from where you reside. Or would you prefer that venting above decks?

John Bell
01-19-2012, 11:06 AM
Seconded.

Thirded. Or barring that, let me propose an alternative: Make it so that when you click the New Posts button, results from the bilge are not included.

Say what you will about Sailing Anarchy, the one thing they do correctly is corral all the political crap to it's own section and those posts never appear when you hit the "new posts" button. Some political stuff sometimes bleeds into the other sections, but between the moderator and the culture that screams "take it to PA!" if some one posts inappropriate content political arguments stay neatly hidden away behind the curtains. To be fair, SA has it's own share of sh!#fights in the other sections, but they are more frequently than not on boat-related issues like the America's Cup, whether or not some boat or another sucks or not, or whether or not Reid Stowe and those who support him are tools.

This would greatly improve the S/N ration of the forums, I think.

johngsandusky
01-20-2012, 08:26 AM
I don't go there, but the smell permeates the site! :)

kenjamin
01-20-2012, 10:02 AM
Just as the bilge functions on a boat it could be good that it's there, otherwise that unpleasant bilge water would be getting all over the cabin sole.

lagspiller
01-20-2012, 03:12 PM
My take...
I like the historical content - about the boats, the people who designed/made them, the people that used them. Work boats or yachts or well crafted small boats. Doesn't matter as long as it presents quality.

I also love to read about present day, solid craftsmanship. For example - there was a long article about making the special joints used in a hatch coaming in an issue a while ago... I'll never make one, but having it explained and seeing the progress step by step.... fascinating stuff. Can be about whole boats of course, but not necessarily. Boat bits, blocks, making rope, rigging.... whatever. Anything boat as long as it is quality craftsmanship.

Sailing, trimming aspects of different rig types.... good stuff.
Epic journey - large or small - and tour experiences. Good stuff.

What really strains my interest is when do-it-yourself moves from quality craftsmanship to 'make something that floats pretty good, costs little and gets you on the water by Tuesday'. I always get a kind of 'how to make a boat out of a cardboard box' feeling from that content.

Scot
01-26-2012, 04:36 PM
from John Bell:
Make it so that when you click the New Posts button, results from the bilge are not included.

Done.
-Scot

JonWilson
01-26-2012, 04:51 PM
Thanks, Scot -- WAY better. The Bilge is there for all who want it, but not in the way of those who are searching for the more wooden boat focused content when checking What's New?

Canoez
01-26-2012, 04:54 PM
Most excellent!

Garret
01-26-2012, 05:15 PM
Thanks, Scot -- WAY better. The Bilge is there for all who want it, but not in the way of those who are searching for the more wooden boat focused content when checking What's New?

I can see that & I can see why it might be in the best interests of WB.

Any chance of a Bilge button? Even one that carries a caveat of some sort?

Thanks for providing the forum!

John Bell
01-26-2012, 07:20 PM
Thanks, Scot -- WAY better. The Bilge is there for all who want it, but not in the way of those who are searching for the more wooden boat focused content when checking What's New?


Excellent!

I remember when the bilge was created, it was because people wanted to keep the boaty stuff separate from the other stuff. It started off as Misc. Non-boat related and morphed into the bilge at some point. Now it's taken over a lot of the bandwidth on the forum. Hopefully this change will start to help the other sections get more message traffic and better support the mission of WoodenBoat Publications.

PeterSibley
01-27-2012, 04:35 AM
Content . I've been reading WB since number 30 and still have all my issues although I admit to not buying as many these days but I feel I've paid my dues. I'm waiting for another Bud McIntosh but I feel I may have to wait a long time.

A few possible topics for articles .... technical articles but that is my interest.

Basic pattermaking ...there always seem to be questions in Building about how to make patterns for replacement hardware. Winch handles for obsolete winches ?

Metal treatments . How to harden steels etc .You may well have done this and I missed it .

Bronzes . What they are ...discussions of the qualities and uses of various alloys.

How to substitute local timbers for the ones specified by your US naval architect ! That could be fun !!

Skegemog
01-27-2012, 10:24 PM
Thank you!! much better

Mad Scientist
01-28-2012, 04:26 PM
...How to substitute local timbers for the ones specified by your US naval architect ! That could be fun !!

That's an article I'd love to read, too! You might need to find a 'local' to write it, though. Not a lot of expertise in Oz woods in my end of the planet...

Tom

chas
01-28-2012, 04:33 PM
We've been substituting Oregon pine for Douglas fir in our exports for some time now! Hemlock is next. / Jim

PeterSibley
01-28-2012, 11:20 PM
It would need more expertise than I have !

Ed Burnett would be a good person to have offer input. The numbers are easy enough but it's the relative strengths and the required dimensions to compensate that provides the puzzle. Essentially timber engineering, but I wasn't just talking about Australian timbers but some parameters for examining your local timbers no matter where you live.

fishrswim
02-02-2012, 10:23 PM
Scot-

Thanks. Much better now.

Bob Cleek
02-04-2012, 12:28 AM
I do have a quibble tho. IMHO you could / should deep six The Bilge on Wooden Boat Forum. It's not in keeping with the civility and class of Wooden Boat. I'd bet that most of the folks there never read the magazine. I think that many of them are just looking for another place to vent.

Thanks again,
The Old fisherman

It twas I who suggested the old "miscellaneous" section be renamed "the bilge." Back in the day, expecially when the weather was bad, the bilges served as a warmer, drier, alternative to the heads. One can only imagine what the bilges must have been like in a Napoleonic Era man of war! When the forum was young, much of what you see in the bilge today was posted in other sections, and in "miscellaneous." The purpose of the bilge is to keep the crap where it belongs. "The Bilge" is not for the faint of heart or weak of stomach. If you find it offensive, or boring, I wouldn't recommend hanging out there as a steady diet. Better to stay topside where the air is fresh!

As to content, I am definitely in agreement with the previous posts. "How to make a boat out of a cardboard box by next Tuesday" says it all. I think the readership is much more sophisticated than to be much interested in plywood quick-n-dirty boats. Traditional craftsmanship is really the core of the thing. That's the difference between a Wooden Boat and a "boat with some wood in it." There is a wealth of information published and readily available on DIY plywood boatbuilding. I really think WB shouldn't lower itself to the level of "Popular Mechanics" boatbuilding articles. After all, you never would see that sort of thing in The Rudder, would you? Articles about boats intended to be build by house carpenters should be published in house carpentry magazines.

And also, while I'm on a tear here, please, please, don't waste precious space on "cruising" articles. Frankly, there is nothing quite so boring in all of maritime literature as somebody's cruising yarn. It's like being invited to somebody's house and being expected to watch their latest vacation home movies, which, thankfully, is a practice that has gone out of vogue. There are but a handful of classic cruising books, most published long, long, ago. (Slocum's "Sailing Alone Around the World, Warwick Tomkins' "50 South," the Hiscocks' stuff, the Pardeys' "Cruising in Serafyn," Hayden's "Wanderer" being among them.) These, however, are much, much more than simply travelogues, offering generally good technical information, a unique historical perspective, excellent literature, or a combination of these. The same goes for "how to sail" articles. It seems the red flag signifying the impending demise of any sailing publication is when it publishes its first article on "How to Anchor." Don't go there!

Now, for some postive suggestions, it would be interesting to read some authoratative information on a pressing problem of great currency: With what are we going to replace tried and true products which are now being increasingly outlawed? ("When red lead is outlawed, only outlaws will have wooden boats!") More and more all of us are experiencing the shock of going into the paint store and discovering they can't sell us what we've been using to keep our boats alive for years and years. Just what are the "legal" substitutes and how well do they really work? Or, better yet, where can we still get the "illegal" stuff. As it stands now, if the EPA knew what left over stuff lives in my paint locker, I'd be doing "life without!"

Duncan Gibbs
02-04-2012, 09:10 AM
We're looking for more good adventures in small wooden boats....
--Matt Murphy

Find out whatever became of AJ MacKinnon's boat, Jack De Crow. I wonder if she's still sailing on the Black Sea? (And she's plywood! :))

Did anybody get pictures of her along the route she took. (She sailed through Serbia just days before Nato started bombing the B'Geezuz out of it).

And bully for you, Bob, for having such strong and fixed opinions! :p

Keith Wilson
02-04-2012, 09:24 AM
I think the readership is much more sophisticated than to be much interested in plywood quick-n-dirty boats. Traditional craftsmanship is really the core of the thing. That's the difference between a Wooden Boat and a "boat with some wood in it."Mr. Cleek is a gentleman and a scholar, and has been here even longer than I have, but I must disagree with him strongly on this point. Most of WBs readership may be more sophisticated, but not all, and the ones that aren't are often the ones just getting interested in wooden boats. If we are to keep wooden boats alive, we have to attract new people, and many of them don't know a caulking iron from a turkey baster.

Consider my own case: I didn't grow up around boats; I learned to sail a sunfish on a lake in northern Minnesota at the advanced age of 32 (it doesn't seem so advanced now, but never mind). When I came home I decided I wanted to build a boat. I'd never done this kind of work before, and I knew nothing about it, although I was tolerably handy. I started reading Wooden Boat and getting books out of the library, and over the next six moths built a Bolger Gypsy straight out of Dynamite Payson's Build the New Instant Boats - with ABX fir plywood and polyester resin, no less. That boat has now been sailing for 23 years with various owners.

I've since built five other boats. Never traditional construction; that's utterly inappropriate for the kind of use my boats get (mostly smallish freshwater sailboats that live on a trailer). Not everyone has a boat that stays in a a salt-water slip. Bob has obviously never tried to keep a traditionally-built boat from leaking profusely when it lives on a trailer, gets bumped around on the highway, and dries out in the Midwest summer winds. I have. I found out quickly enough that there are more pleasant ways to build than with construction plywood and polyester resin, and the last couple of projects were epoxy-glued lapstrake of first-class plywood. Wooden Boat magazine has been helpful all along.

While I sympathize with the temptation to preserve the purity of the craft - and don't misunderstand me, old skills and techniques are certainly worth preserving - the way to do this is NOT to denigrate or ignore modern methods of construction, even ones that involve ACX fir and lots of nasty-smelling goop. Stitch-and-glue is a good introduction, and fine for many purposes. Some of those who start there will move on to more sophisticated methods, and may even discover the joys of handplanes, clear cedar, steam-bent oak and copper rivets.

My advice: Don't be snobs. Ignore those who suggest it.

McMike
02-04-2012, 09:32 AM
Mr. Cleek is a gentleman and a scholar, and has been here even longer than I have, but I must disagree with him strongly on this point. Most of WBs readership may be more sophisticated, but not all, and the ones that aren't are often the ones just getting interested in wooden boats. If we are to keep wooden boats alive, we have to attract new people, and many of them don't know a caulking iron from a turkey baster . . . .

. . . . While I sympathize with the temptation to preserve the purity of the craft - and don't misunderstand me, old skills and techniques are certainly worth preserving - the way to do this is NOT to denigrate or ignore modern methods of construction, even ones that involve ACX fir and lots of nasty-smelling goop. Stitch-and-glue is a good introduction, and fine for many purposes. Some of those who start there will move on to more sophisticated methods, and may even discover the joys of handplanes, clear cedar, steam-bent oak and copper rivets.

My advice: Don't be snobs. Ignore those who suggest it.

I was trying to figure out how to best put it, you did it for me. +1 and well done.

Breakaway
02-04-2012, 09:51 AM
^ +1

Kevin

Garret
02-04-2012, 11:56 AM
+3 !!

Bob Cleek
02-04-2012, 01:28 PM
But Keith, that's exactly my point. I was addressing the magazine's content and our need to preserve the crafts of a traditional trade. You built your first boat from Payson's book, a fine work and readily available, not from WB. As I said, there are many great sources of how-to-do-it information by good authors readily available to people starting out in the game and I heartily endorse it. (My own first "big" boat was a homebuilt plywood ketch.) Maybe what is really needed are different magazines. Maybe WoodenBoat has bitten off more than it can chew. Maybe we need a "Fine Boatbuilding" magazine like "Fine Woodworking" and a "Home Boatbuilding" magazine for those who do their sailing on "amber waves of grain."

I'm 62. All my "hands on" mentors are gone now. The master boatbuilders whose shoulders I looked over when I was in my twenties were in their forties, fifties and sixties then. These "90 day wonders" bumming around the yards looking for work and waiving certificates from the few "wooden boatbuilding schools" that exist can't hold a candle to the oldtimers who served formal years-long apprenticships in the old days. Greer and Smalser are about the only connection to that era we have here in the forum and they're older than dirt. There's a wealth of "tricks of the trade" that are becoming lost to us on a daily basis as the last generation of traditional boatbuilders dies off. I've built and owned plywood boats and mixed my share of googe. I can't think of much that applies to traditional boatbuilding that doesn't translate over to modern methods, really. I think boatbuilding is like music, you'll do better if you master the basics before you try to play jazz.

WB is positioned to preserve this irreplacerable knowledge and in many respects, it does. My point is that their publishing information that is already readily available, such as cruising yarns, basic seamanship and plywood and epoxy boatbuilding technology, wastes precious column inches that could be devoted to saving a vanishing (and to some, fascinating) store of knowledge created over centuries of hard work and skinned knuckles.

I've seen many fine boats built of non-traditional materials and techniques, but I don't think much is added to our store of boatbuilding knowledge by those who promote wooden boatbuilding materials and techniques designed primarily for people who are lured by the promise of instant gratification. It may certainly be said that "paint by numbers kits" gave (or give... do they still make them, or have video games rendered them extinct?) millions of people an introduction to fine art and the satisfaction of creating a "real oil painting," but did they add anything to fine art? I submit, so also is it with "instant boats." Like "paint by numbers," there's a place for "instant boats," but I do think it cheapens a publication that aspires to something better when it "teaches to the dumbest kid in the class" and follows an editorial policy of "No boat left behind."

Garret
02-04-2012, 01:45 PM
At least in the northeast - there are boatbuilders who are not "90 day wonders" - but folks in their 50's & 60's who've been doing it for a long time now & have (as is the normal course of life) taken over the mantle of the people you are talking about.

This is the first president who's younger than I am too......

Finally - I'd rather see the magazine as inclusive than exclusive.

Bob Cleek
02-04-2012, 02:42 PM
At least in the northeast - there are boatbuilders who are not "90 day wonders" - but folks in their 50's & 60's who've been doing it for a long time now & have (as is the normal course of life) taken over the mantle of the people you are talking about.

This is the first president who's younger than I am too......

Finally - I'd rather see the magazine as inclusive than exclusive.

God love 'em, but Maine doesn't count! LOL 250 years ago, if "inclusiveness" were the "politically correct" thing it seems to be with so many now, we'd all still be living in New England, waiting for the "slow ones" to catch up before moving westward. It's a noble endeavor to lend a hand to the laggers, but really, do we always have to cater to the lowest common denominator? I guess, when you are selling magazines, their money is as green as everybody else's and the publishers have to watch their bottom line. I can't blame them, I suppose.

Consider, for a moment though, how much we see written, not just in WB, about lofting that assumes the reader has no understanding whatsoever of basic high school geometry. Or how many pages have been printed picturing the rings of a tree and the way the grain turns out when a log is sawn. Or the ink that's been spilled writing about sharpening tools, written with the assumption (perhaps sadly accurate) that American boys no long learn how to sharpen a pocket knive by the time they are eight. I guess we deserve to be a nation in which the average person no longer even knows how to hold a hammer. (By the end of the handle, not the neck, BTW.) What need is there for such knowledge when anything we want can be made by children chained to workbenches in China and bought with borrowed money?

Garret
02-04-2012, 02:49 PM
Maine doesn't count? When the magazine's headquarters are there? I'm confused.

As far as the average guy's training goes - there are many bright people out there trained in other areas. Additionally, if you grow up in the city & aren't ever allowed to carry a knife (especially to school) - what's the point in knowing how to sharpen it?

You hold the hammer on the comfortably shaped metal end right? Put the claw in your "claw"? ;)

Keith Wilson
02-04-2012, 03:02 PM
No, Bob, we have a deeper disagreement that you may think. I think techniques using effective glue - which is the major difference in technology from the old days - add to wooden boatbuilding rather than being something inferior for beginners, the incompetent, the hurried, or or the lazy. I think a well-built glued-ply lapstrake boat is functionally and aesthetically superior in many respects to traditional construction. I think a good cold-molded cruising boat is in every respect at least the equal of a traditionally built type. I have no patience at all with traditionalist snobbery, which is what I think you're demonstrating. Look at your language: "paint-by-numbers", "instant gratification", "the dumbest kids in the class". While traditional knowledge is certainly worth preserving and disseminating, so is developing new building techniques as we learn more about chemistry and engineering. The smartest kids in the class are not learning only the way it was done in 1900, they're figuring out new ways to do things using the resources and the knowledge we have now, and Wooden Boat should be a part of that. The magazine should not be "Nineteenth Century Boatbuilding", arbitrarily limited to the techniques used before good waterproof adhesives, when good-quality solid lumber was plentiful and cheap. We're much the same age; beware the Good Old Days syndrome.

Hwyl
02-04-2012, 03:45 PM
I too agree with Keith and actually like "instant boats". It's OK for Bob to extol the vertue of traditional builds, but allow us our views too.

Oh yes, and many thanks to Scot for exempting the bilge from the new posts button, a modification I've been suggesting for years and now a dream come true

Gold Rock
02-04-2012, 04:22 PM
My lobby for the traditional end of the spectrum is in recognition of the slippery slope syndrome. Glued lap. Cold molded vacuum bagged. Lighter. Thinner. The wood eventually becomes just a built in form around which to wrap the fiber and chemicals. Substitue the wood for Airex foam, why not? And finally, build around a plug and eliminate the fillers all together. I want to make clear that I'm not denigrating non traditional wood techniques, materials, and vessels. I'm talking specifically about Wooden Boat magazine. This single, unique publication. There are uncountable sources for non traditional (wood and otherwise) techniques and boats. And more so every day. There are almost none that still focus singularly on the areas I like. Might someday there be no longer any more materials left to actually construct a traditional wooden vessel? Sadly, very possibly. But even if the information I value becomes merely historic reference, I still want it. There are so many other fine publications that cover variations from non tradtional wood, Classic Boat, Good Old Boat, Small Craft Advisor, even Cruising World, are just a few that scratch just the kind of itch we're talking about here. I think the more a tool attempts to be all-purpose the lesser it's ultimate value. I feel the same way about publications.

Duncan Gibbs
02-04-2012, 05:32 PM
snip... when good-quality solid lumber was plentiful and cheap.

This is THE clincher of the argument! In most parts of the World, you cannot buy timber that is properly graded of of the appropriate dimension. I've had to cut my own as you'd have seen and have my own nice little timber yard. I'm as much in favour of traditional building techniques as you Bob. In intend to build a batten seamed Atkin design next, all the while slowly chipping away at my own design for an Ashcroft planked boat in the manner of the Logan & Bailey boats that our New Zealand cousins across the ditch are restoring to their former magnificence. (NZ Kauri is impossible to get in Australia and probably bloody difficult to get in NZ itself).

So here-in lays the fundamental problem: If the raw material is difficult to obtain, then how on Earth are we going to, not just maintain the old skills, but also expand them so a greater number of people practice them in years to come?

I suggest that WBM is doing just fine, although it could arrive on our antipodean shores to coincide with the date on the cover, rather than one or two months later! ;)

Oh... And I second the idea that it could go monthly... Bob could have more trad-rad stuff that way! :)

PeterSibley
02-04-2012, 06:13 PM
This is THE clincher of the argument! In most parts of the World, you cannot buy timber that is properly graded of of the appropriate dimension. I've had to cut my own as you'd have seen and have my own nice little timber yard. I'm as much in favour of traditional building techniques as you Bob. In intend to build a batten seamed Atkin design next, all the while slowly chipping away at my own design for an Ashcroft planked boat in the manner of the Logan & Bailey boats that our New Zealand cousins across the ditch are restoring to their former magnificence. (NZ Kauri is impossible to get in Australia and probably bloody difficult to get in NZ itself).

So here-in lays the fundamental problem: If the raw material is difficult to obtain, then how on Earth are we going to, not just maintain the old skills, but also expand them so a greater number of people practice them in years to come?

I suggest that WBM is doing just fine, although it could arrive on our antipodean shores to coincide with the date on the cover, rather than one or two months later! ;)

Oh... And I second the idea that it could go monthly... Bob could have more trad-rad stuff that way! :)

+1 How about having our edition printed in Oz ...I'm sure we could find a printer capable of the work . :d

Bob Cleek
02-04-2012, 07:38 PM
Keith, high quality boatbuilding wood has always been hard to come by. These days, with labor being worth what it is, we often set our wood standards so high it is well nigh impossible to find what we want. Some of those old classics were built with wood our modern day purists would consign to their fireplaces. I disagree with you assertion that modern adhesives are "better." We don't even know the life expectancy of some of them, they are still so new to us. Wood moves. Most adhesives don't, and those that do have their own downsides. Consider the market value of a well built traditionally constructed boat with the same design strip planked, cold moled or otherwise slathered with epoxy. Why do people pay three or four times as much for the old fashioned built model of the same boat? Why is a photograph worth less than an oil painting of equal quality?

Garret
02-04-2012, 07:54 PM
But actual cash value has nothing to to with value to the owner.

I respect your knowledge hugely & have followed your advice more than once, but we do know that, in salt water, epoxy lasts as long as or longer than stainless screws for example.

Luders' seem to be holding their value pretty well & they (hot molded) were certainly modern & untried in the 50's, no?

Duncan Gibbs
02-04-2012, 08:35 PM
A mint, hot moulded Uffa Fox 14 would cost just about as much as a Concordia.

The Mighty Pippin? You couldn't pay enough!!! :D

BTW, it was built in the early 1970s and the glue on the seams was just as good and adhered to the ply just as well as the day it was applied. That's about 40 years of service without fault. The ply (laminated wood) has rotted in parts, just as well as solid timber would have rotted under the same circumstance. It's still fundamentally an organic product.

Both methods, modern and traditional, are needed, can be mastered from the pedagogy of Wooden Boat, books, schools, self-teaching & practising and apprenticing, or a combination of any of these. There's more than one way to skin a cat and so it should be this way.

chas
02-04-2012, 09:36 PM
"Both methods, modern and traditional, are needed, can be mastered from the pedagogy of Wooden Boat, books, schools, self-teaching & practising and apprenticing, or a combination of any of these. There's more than one way to skin a cat and so it should be this way."

Well said, a man of understanding. When you do that for what seems like forever, it adds up to experience. With that you come to understand that the learning never ends. / Jim

Gold Rock
02-04-2012, 09:58 PM
The point of the conversation is (or certainly should be) WB magazine itself. I for one don't wish to declare any relative merit to any style of boat or boat construction at all. But the magazine is simply a finite resource. Every page dedicated to stich and glue how-to is one less for what I want to pay for. That's the basis of my argument. If someone wants to spin off "Plywood and Epoxy Monthly", more power to 'em. There's plenty of material and doubtless an eager clientel out there. That's all I meant to convey.

Duncan Gibbs
02-04-2012, 11:19 PM
Chuck, in an ideal world where there is great interest in all things carvel, batten seamed and ashcroft, I would agree with you. However, this not being the case (and I would point out now that all the woodenboat restoration/building schools around the globe have both modern and traditional streams in their curricula) both ends of the spectrum need addressing within the magazine. Plywood/cold moulding boatbuilding techniques are now well entrenched within Wooden Boat, and to remove such content from the magazine would cut the financial viability of the journal out from under it. If this happened there would be no publication where traditional techniques would be expounded, explained, dissected and debated.

Just sayin'...

Matthew! Carl! Look for Jack de Crow!! Pretty please!!!

Keith Wilson
02-04-2012, 11:39 PM
Bob, I'm not claiming that glued boats are necessarily better. I'm claiming that they can be every bit as good as a traditionally-built boat, with advantages and disadvantages depending on the application, and that they deserve an honored place in WB alongside traditional construction. Arbitrarily limiting the magazine to wooden boats built with techniques predating modern adhesives would exclude some of the best wooden boats ever built. We've been building with epoxy for many years now, and we know that life expectancy is long enough. It's also an undeniable fact that in most places high-quality boatbuilding timber is harder to come by and relatively more expensive that it was in previous years.


Why is a photograph worth less than an oil painting of equal quality?And here we go again, more snobbery. Beware Creeping Fogeyism! Are you sure you're not a Confucian? ;)

Gold Rock
02-05-2012, 12:24 AM
Chuck, in an ideal world where there is great interest in all things carvel, batten seamed and ashcroft, I would agree with you. However, this not being the case (and I would point out now that all the woodenboat restoration/building schools around the globe have both modern and traditional streams in their curricula) both ends of the spectrum need addressing within the magazine. Plywood/cold moulding boatbuilding techniques are now well entrenched within Wooden Boat, and to remove such content from the magazine would cut the financial viability of the journal out from under it. If this happened there would be no publication where traditional techniques would be expounded, explained, dissected and debated.


Duncan, what pains me most about your comment is the truthful sounding ring of inevitability it has. Fight the good fight as long as you can, I say. That's all we can do. After that? I'll just have to learn to love carbon fiber. Or maybe I should finish that rebuild of my '73 T140 Bonnie...

Bob Cleek
02-05-2012, 01:57 AM
Keith, Gold Rock and I are on the same page. We are talking about the content we'd like to see in WB, without regard to the merits of construction techniques that rely on adhesives and manufactured wood prducts. Let's not put too fine a point on it. What I was proposing was beneath WB wasn't everything that wasn't totally traditional, but rather the very elementary "quick and dirty" entry level techniques and designs. Like Gold Rock, I really have no interest in "entry level" content. For those that wish or require such, as we all did at one time, it can be found just about anywhere.

I'm not denigrating so-called "modern" methods, but I don't have much regard for those who tout them as an easier alternative to a demanding craft, or more accurately, a collection of interrelated crafts. God knows we see a large number of posts in the forum from people who have spent hundreds of dollars on epoxy and can't seem to get it to do what it's supposed to do. Frankly, it's been my experience that working with plastic resins in boatbuilding is much trickier than building traditionally. I'm sure you've seen me write more than once that working with grown natural wood is in many respects easier and more pleasant than working with plywood and epoxy. You aren't going to hear that from the manufacturers of plywood and epoxy, but I suspect a lot of professional boatbuilders would say the same. I really do have sympathy for the many folks who jump into building a boat far ahead of the learning curve and endure great cost and frustration when they find it all wasn't as easy as whoever sold them on the idea told them it was. As you know, however, I have little sympathy for those who feel those who have invested the time and study to learn the right ways to do things are being "elitist" or "snobbish" when they recognize that there are, more often that not, right ways and wrong ways to do do things.

As for boatbuilding wood, I have to say that I think the claim that it cannot be found today (particularly when proposed as an "excuse" to build boats out of manufactured wood products) is a lot of bunk. I cannot ever remember a time when good boatbuilding wood didn't command a high premium, and that goes back forty plus years now. (Even in the "Golden Age," every time they cut one tree, the next one was going to necessarily be farther away, so ya never ever could "get wood like we used to!") The trees still grow just as they did in generations past (except, of course, for chestnut and kauri pine and some politically incorrect tropical hardwoods, for all of which we have comparable alternatives). Mechanized equipment makes harvesting timber easier today than it ever has been and much more wood is accessible in areas where, without the logging technology we now have, harvesting was previously impossible. (There's no contest between a chainsaw and a double bladed axe!) "Finestkind" straight grained knot free stock was always hard to come by. Sourcing it is but another of the traditiional boatbuilder's skills. Good trees still grow and are felled as in ages past and just about every area of the world has local species suitable for boatbuilding use. I have to laugh when I so often read the laments of those who "can't find boatbuilding wood" and haven't loooked beyond their local big box hardware outlet or construction trade lumberyard. I've seen a lot of good boatbuilding wood used in boatyards and none of it ever came from Home Depot. Most all came directly from mills, or "Gypsy" loggers with a Woodmizer, who had been "keeping an eye out out" for it, knowing there was a yard that would be happy to buy it for a good price if and when it was available. It would then be set aside for when it was needed, often to air dry for a good long time, and that's how "good wood" was seemingly "always available" in times past. When somebody snivels that they can't just run down to their neighborhood lumberyard and buy clear Sitka spruce or green bending white oak, I don't think I'm being elitist at all in thinking they haven't a clue what they are doing.

Keith Wilson
02-05-2012, 09:32 AM
We are talking about the content we'd like to see in WB, without regard to the merits of construction techniques that rely on adhesives and manufactured wood prducts.So am I. I think modern construction techniques enhance the world of wooden boats and make it better, and deserve coverage in WB magazine just as much as older methods.


Traditional craftsmanship is really the core of the thing. That's the difference between a Wooden Boat and a "boat with some wood in it."
What I was proposing was beneath WB wasn't everything that wasn't totally traditional, but rather the very elementary "quick and dirty" entry level techniques and designs.Make up your mind. However, I still disagree. Phil Bolger and Dynamite Payson were excellent fellows and introduced many people to boatbuilding, including me, and I'm proud that their work was occasionally in the hallowed pages of WB. There's space for it all; we certainly have not been overwhelmed with month after month of "build the latest instant boat" articles. If the magazine neglected more complex or more traditional methods in favor of only that, I'd complain too, but there's certainly no danger of that.



I don't think much is added to our store of boatbuilding knowledge by those who promote wooden boatbuilding materials and techniques designed primarily for people who are lured by the promise of instant gratification. It may certainly be said that "paint by numbers kits" gave . . . millions of people an introduction to fine art and the satisfaction of creating a "real oil painting," but did they add anything to fine art? I submit, so also is it with "instant boats." Like "paint by numbers," there's a place for "instant boats," but I do think it cheapens a publication that aspires to something better when it "teaches to the dumbest kid in the class" and follows an editorial policy of "No boat left behind."
I'm not denigrating so-called "modern" methods, but I don't have much regard for those who tout them as an easier alternative to a demanding craft, or more accurately, a collection of interrelated crafts . . . Frankly, it's been my experience that working with plastic resins in boatbuilding is much trickier than building traditionally. I'm sure you've seen me write more than once that working with grown natural wood is in many respects easier and more pleasant than working with plywood and epoxyAgain, make up your mind. Is it a simple technique for the inexperienced, ignorant, lazy or stupid, or is it really harder than traditional methods? (Some folks can screw up anything, but none of us are born knowing how to do much.) But again, you most certainly are denigrating modern methods. Look at the language. "Dumbest kid in the class" indeed. As you know, I have no patience with doing things badly. I have even less patience with the idea that doing it the way it was done in 1886 is superior to doing it in a way that has only been possible recently.

There is room in WB magazine for all construction techniques that use wood, old and new. There is room for sophisticated articles that will teach the oldest and most experienced something new, and for articles that teach the basics. We are in no danger of the magazine turning into "Boatbuilding for Beginners". However, I do not think WB should be "Nineteenth Century Boatbuilding" either.


As for boatbuilding wood, . . . the claim that it cannot be found today . . . .I didn't make that claim, merely that it's scarcer, harder to find, and more expensive. That's true. One can obviously still find it, since traditional boats are still being built, and a good thing too. It's also true that with better adhesives and production techniques, plywood is better than it has ever been, and first-class boatbuilding plywood is more or less instantly available to anyone with the money. Personally I don't find tracking down lumber in the backwoods an enjoyable part of a project. YMMV.

C. Ross
02-05-2012, 11:00 AM
I say reproduce and edit the dialogue between Cleek and Wilson as an article. (No offense to Gibbs and Gold Rock and others adding great insights.)

They are civilly and thoroughly debating the future of wooden boats. Who better than WoodenBoat to lead the way in advancing the dialogue over boat building methods?

McMike
02-05-2012, 12:32 PM
I say reproduce and edit the dialogue between Cleek and Wilson as an article. (No offense to Gibbs and Gold Rock and others adding great insights.)

They are civilly and thoroughly debating the future of wooden boats. Who better than WoodenBoat to lead the way in advancing the dialogue over boat building methods?

A great idea!



Eventhough I think Keith is ultimately right in this argument, Bob has some great points twards the preservation of the traditional craft.

Bob Cleek
02-05-2012, 03:43 PM
I hereby waive my "copyrights" to WB! Quote away! Keith and I are really not all that far apart, as usual. We just like debating things and we know how to "play by the rules." You won't find us devolving to name calling, although Keith does sometimes "bend the rules" by trying to put an advantageous spin on what I say. :) His premises seem more absolute, while I like to paint mine in a broader spectrum of "shades of grey." (That'll get a rise outa him!)

I am certainly no Luddite. I use modern materials when they seem appropriate and I'm always on the lookout for new mehtods and products, as anyone who knows of my affinity for CPES can attest, but I think there are two constants in the game that don't ever change, the "physics of wood" and the "physics of the sea." A craftsman who has a command of the traditional methods can build any "wooden" boat, be it plank on frame fastened with treenails or a "plywood box" "encapsulated in plasic resin like a fly in amber (which I concede, in the case of amber, is a "wood product" that does last a long, long time!) I appreciate that others may debate differing boatbuilding philosophies, but there can be no denying that the mechanical properties of wood and how it moves as its moisture content changes in a marine environment are inconsistent with rigid adhesives that don't move along with it. That's really the distinction between building with mechanically fastened natural timber assembled with consideration for shrinking and swelling and building with "manufactured wood products" fastened and encapsulated in adhesives and coatings that are intended to prevent the wood doing what it naturally does.. The traditional approach requires a respect for and acceptance of how wood moves and an accommodation of that, while the "modern" approach confronts those same inherent characteristics of wood and seeks to negate or overpower them with modern technology. Even though I might be considered a "Confucian," I do think there's a "yin" and a "yang" in that, in much the same way that similar differing perspectives in Eastern and Western philosophy are reflected in the differences between Asian and European sailing hull and rig design. It isn't "a matter of opinion" that laminated wood structures subjected to wetting and drying cycles, however mitigated by moisture inhibiting barriers, will inevitably tear themselves apart. That isn't to say that traditonal construction doesn't have it's own well known limitations, but when wood decays, as nature has decreed it will inevitably do, traditional construction takes that into account by factoring the anticipated need for repairs into its engineering equation, unlike "modern" methods, which reflect the "modern" economics of our "throw-away" materialistic culture. The "traditional" boatbuilding methods address the inevitable forces created by the nature of wood by vectoring them in the direction desired, while "modern" methods meet those forces head on and seek to overpower them.

That said, can we truly consider a method that of its essence seeks to overcome the very nature of wood by holding it together and covering with plastics to be "wooden boatbuiding?" Is that qualitatively any different from other modern technologies that have made it possible to turn barrels of crude oil into unquestionably fine fibreglass boats? It's all "wooden" at the end of the day, oil being, after all, merely decomposed vegetable material.

Duncan Gibbs
02-05-2012, 04:46 PM
Once again Bob, I point to my own 40 year old unencapsulated, ply, stitch and glue boat that, left uncared for for many years, developed rot and required bits of it to be chopped out and replaced. Now after a few seasons hard sailing it needs a repaint. I would hardly call this the act of a "throw away" culture, although many did suggest I do just that before I restored her.

The same degree of care is required in building and maintaining a ply, stitch and glue boat as a traditional building. Endgrain needs to be sealed, voids filled, metals of differing nobility need to be separated and so on. If built and maintained properly it will last as long as any traditionally built boat, and probably longer as plastic resins will last for hundreds, if not thousands of years before breaking down. Like I said, wood is wood and it really doesn't matter if it's been processed and laminated up, or if it's used in a solid form. If left uncared for in either state it will rot.

It's worthwhile remembering that many of the traditionally built boats were working boats and designed to have a short, hard life. A life beyond 20 years of service was not generally thought of, either in the building or using of these vessels. That some of them are with us today is extraordinary.

As to the issue of traditional timber stock, the method of obtaining timber you've described is precisely the one I used in getting mine. Even if I just wanted small stock to build Billy Atkin's Krazy Kat (my next build, as Erica will consume years of time) which is batten seamed carvel, I would still have to follow this route. Whereas Atkin describes being able to pick up the timber, for such a small vessel, from a local supplier quite easily and at low cost. Now, excluding my own labour I've now accumulated quite a collection of timber suitable for boat building at a much, much lower cost than if I were to go and order such timber from the local mill. But how many people these day have either the time, work space, or inclination to man-handle big logs onto gluts, roll them into a portable mill, stack, sticker and air dry cubic metres of timber?

I also restate that if Wooden Boat doesn't cover "quick and dirty" builds, or modern processed timber/adhesive techniques it will not be a going concern (think advertisers alone) and there will be no journal where traditional techniques can be expounded upon.

Bob Cleek
02-05-2012, 04:58 PM
I also restate that if Wooden Boat doesn't cover "quick and dirty" builds, or modern processed timber/adhesive techniques it will not be a going concern (think advertisers alone) and there will be no journal where traditional techniques can be expounded upon.

Yea, I know. You're right about that. And if it weren't for the dirty pictures, Playboy wouldn't be publishing all those great articles! :) But to bring it back to where it started, I think they can find it still profitable to cut the stuff about "12 hour boats" and use the space to address both traditional and modern sophisticated aspects of the craft.

Keith Wilson
02-05-2012, 05:56 PM
. . .by trying to put an advantageous spin on what I say. Now, now, Bob, if you don't like the words I quoted, you shouldn't have written them. http://img.fropper.com/z/blog-images/500x400/K/KIDDO-BHAI-gBR-blog-30690.gif


His premises seem more absolute, while I like to paint mine in a broader spectrum of "shades of grey." (That'll get a rise outa him!) Indeed. :D My position is not absolute at all, but as inclusive as possible. I like traditional boats and boatbuilding, and I think WB should publish lots of excellent articles about them. I also like boats built by modern methods, and I think articles about them would be fine too.

Your arguments seem to shift around surprisingly. Is simple plywood construction really too easy, fit only for novices and those desiring an ugly boat by next Tuesday, and beneath the dignity of the august pages of WB magazine? Or is it a snare and a delusion, and in truth no easier than traditional construction? Are boats built by modern methods just fine if carefully constructed, or do they have serious inherent flaws just waiting to appear? Are you "not denigrating modern methods", or are they "boats with some wood in them", not really any different from fiberglass boats, "instant gratification " for "the dumbest kids in the class"?


A craftsman who has a command of the traditional methods can build any "wooden" boat . .

I don't think so, at least not without learning new skills. While most traditional boatbuilders are intelligent, skillful, and adaptable, knowing how to shape solid wood teaches one nothing about the techniques for using epoxy effectively. A cold-molded boat that's vacuum-bagged, for example, uses techniques very, very different from anything in traditional building; it's probably the most difficult and labor-intensive method of wooden construction known. Modern boatbuilding techniques are NOT entirely a subset of traditional skills.


. . . there can be no denying that the mechanical properties of wood and how it moves as its moisture content changes in a marine environment are inconsistent with rigid adhesives that don't move along with it. That's really the distinction between building with mechanically fastened natural timber assembled with consideration for shrinking and swelling and building with "manufactured wood products" fastened and encapsulated in adhesives and coatings that are intended to prevent the wood doing what it naturally does.

Ah, now we're talking materials science and engineering, subjects I do understand a little about. Wood changes size and shape with changes in moisture content, certainly. Glue doesn't so much, although characterizing it as rigid isn't really accurate. Epoxy is quite flexible compared to iron or bronze, for example. However, glued construction in most cases doesn't try to eliminate wood movement by abolishing changes in moisture content. It deals with the motion by keeping the size of the wood pieces small relative to the size of the glue joint. Glue joints can accommodate wood movement perfectly well as long as it's not too large. That's how plywood stays together; the veneers are thin and they don't move much, so the stresses on the glue lines stay within reasonable limits. A cold-molded hull is just a large funny-shaped piece of plywood. So is a glued-ply lapstrake hull. They can be covered with layers of reinforcing fabric and epoxy (although they aren't always) because, again, the veneers are thin and don't move more than the glued joints can tolerate. Glued construction "works with the nature of wood" just as much as traditional construction; if it didn't, the boats wouldn't stay together. Nature cannot be fooled.

They're all wooden boats. Some of them are good, some not, but goodness doesn't depend on with whether thay use treenails, metal fasteners, or glue. And the good ones all deserve coverage in Wooden Boat.

Certainly if anyone at WB wants to do anything with our conversation it's OK by me (as unlikely as that may be). And by "Confucian" I meant having perhaps excessive reverence for the ancestors. ;)

essaunders
02-06-2012, 08:01 AM
from John Bell:

[/I]Done.
-Scot


Thanks! I've been wanting that "feature" for years!!!!

Bob Cleek
02-10-2012, 02:10 PM
In case anybody's still interested in this thread, I'm copying this from http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?66364-Stitch-and-glue-marketing-propaganda, a "revived" thread relevant to this one.
It contains a lot of back and forth discussion on the pros and cons of "modern" boatbuilding. When you separate the fly$hit from the pepper, good points are raised from both perspectives. If WB's editors were to keep in mind that these "new" methods are "entry level" techniques, perhaps an editorial content balance could be struck that kept things in perspective. I submit that it is fair to presume that those who are just starting out really do want to learn the traditional methods and that "quick and dirty" methods allow them to get their feet wet without being scared off by the considerable complexity of traditional methods.

"I've been following it with some interest. Frankly, I think it is a great discussion and pretty much all that can be said about the subject has been said in here.

The biggest kernel of truth is that SNG or "quick and dirty" boatbuilding does indeed provide an entry for many who otherwise would be discouraged by the steep learning curve attendant to the traditional wooden boatbuilding craft. DIY traditional wooden boatbuilding requires much more of the amateur than it ever did of the pros. Professionally, in days of old, boats were built by teams of specialists. While master boatbuilders had a working command of most all of the various separate crafts required to build a traditional wooden boat, few were masters of all of these. In the old time production environment, there were loftsmen, framers, plankers, caulkers, finish joiners, painters, riggers, sailmakers and so on, each a separate trade with its own tricks of the trade and secret handshakes. Today's amateur has to be able to do most all of them alone. How many really would tackle traditional wooden boatbuilding today from a standing start?

Stitch and glue, and indeed many of the adhesive-dependent construction systems touted today serve a justifiable purpose as the "gateway drug" to real wooden boatbuilding, but those who start off with it and never matriculate to the more challenging traditional methods are a lot like those who begrudgingly admit they "tried it," but "didn't inhale."'

Canoeyawl
02-10-2012, 03:19 PM
there were loftsmen, framers, plankers, caulkers, finish joiners, painters, riggers, sailmakers and so on, each a separate trade with its own tricks of the trade and secret handshakes.

With sailmaking always being specialized, that would be the difference between a "boatbuilder" and a "shipbuilder"
A boatbuilder has to be competent in all those skills. It would be impossible for one man to complete a ship.

Bob Cleek
02-10-2012, 05:08 PM
With sailmaking always being specialized, that would be the difference between a "boatbuilder" and a "shipbuilder"
A boatbuilder has to be competent in all those skills. It would be impossible for one man to complete a ship.

I think the main difference is the size of their hammers. :)

That said, specialization was common practice in most all of the larger yards. Herreshoff, Lawley, and the rest, had separate crews for the various specialties. Herreshoff, for example, had a separate "small boat shop" that turned out their Columbia "lifeboats," the "Buzzard's Bay Boy's Boats" and the like, but, when completed, the painting was done by the paint shop crew. Their larger boats were built "in place," with the various crews rotating through as the work progressed. It wasn't an "assembly line" operation as with automobiles, of course, but their foundry work was done by the foundry crew, rigging by the rigging gang, caulking by the caulking gang, and so forth.

Duncan Gibbs
02-10-2012, 06:07 PM
A great couple of posts Bob, and I think they really explain the ultimate need to have S&G methods shown alongside traditional methods under the one publishing umbrella. I wouldn't call all S&G "quick and dirty" as some of these vessels do require considerable skill beyond that of putting a "Bolger box" together. Indeed, some "Bolger boxes" can be major builds as well, as witnessed by the epic of Peter Lennihan's Turtle Bay. There are some many shades of grey that render the subject that a simple dichotomy is really impossible to attain. As much as I dislike powerboats, the noise and fumes they make, the wash they produce that can damage delicate ecosystems, I know that Wooden Boat will always have them within its covers (and sometime on its cover!)

Interestingly finely crafted musical instruments, such as violins and pianos, are almost all produced in a 'factory' setting where different people turn out and assemble the various components in a production setting.

Keith Wilson
02-10-2012, 09:58 PM
First, epoxy-glued construction is far more than stitch and glue. Second, stitch and glue is not merely "entry level" boatbuilding, although it can be. Have you ever seen one of Sam Devlin's boats? You can say many things about them, but entry level they're not. Here are four at Port Townsend.



http://boatbuild.files.wordpress.com/2010/09/img_1319.jpg

P.L.Lenihan
02-11-2012, 06:06 AM
I've a real problem and honestly hope to never remedy it. I like all sorts of boats.In fact, if it floats, I like it. I do not care if it is big or small nor the material it is made from. I am just addicted to floating things.Either I was a fish in some previous life or I am absolutely nuts in the present, I really do not know. The only reason I have a slight bias toward a boat made from wood is that this is about the cheapest and easiest material I imagine I can safely handle. I am a hobbiest , not a tradesman or professional boat person. The variety of methods and boats presented in Woodenboat magazine satisfies my addiction handsomely as it is forever reducing the paucity of my knowledge in things boat related. For that I am grateful.

Perhaps in the next life I will win the Choose-Your-Next-Life lottery and return as a tradesman or professional boat builder(shipwright). How lucky I will be to have had the chance to read Woodenboat magazine in this life!




Cheers!


Peter

Nicholas Scheuer
02-11-2012, 02:58 PM
Second what Keith wrote instead of going with the "traditionalists".

I like the diversity includud under the present WB mantle. Heck, one of my favorite articles appeared several years ago, the one about the wooden PT-Boats. And it's the only place we're going to read about reasonably small, low-powered displacement motor cruisers.

Old Dryfoot
02-11-2012, 06:00 PM
A very enjoyable read, thank you to all contributors.

My vote is for more of the same, I think that WB has found a pleasing balance of modern and transitional content.