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The Bigfella
01-06-2012, 11:24 PM
I just had an Iranian friend over for a cuppa. She's a former political prisoner there - she had 5 years in prison as a political prisoner before coming here as a refugee. She's still got family and friends there, but that was her comment:

"I wish they'd go into Iran and do the job properly"

She was anti the Shah, but as she said "The Shah had 300 political prisoners but this government has 3 million and has executed 1.5 million, I really wish they'd get rid of them."

She also rattled off the list of countries that have sanctions against Iran and we chatted about the effects of the devastated economy on the local people. Its significant.... and very different to what we see on TV.

She said that the people in Iraq see themselves as worse off now than under Saddam, but that this would not be the case in Iran.

Incidentally, she had a chuckle when I told her the secret police in Indonesia had investigated me for people smuggling.

PeterSibley
01-06-2012, 11:57 PM
The charge has begun, trumpets, drums, oil the presses. Prime the missiles .

CWSmith
01-07-2012, 12:17 AM
Remind me why they have this problem?

Carter invited the Shah here for medical treatment and the people overthrew the government, right?

Then thet formed a constitution that gave final power to the religious leaders, who were known extremists.

Finally, the religious government persecutes everyone who defies them and seems bent on worldwide conversion by the sword.

So, why should we shed how much blood undoing their mistake? They screwed up and it cost them lives. They will spend more lives driving the religious leaders out of power. Get on with it and don't call on us to do it for you.

brad9798
01-07-2012, 12:29 AM
WOW! Bigfella is the International man of mystery, I guess ...

Indonesia 'investigated' you? Really? WOW!

Perhaps I am wrong ... and I assume I am ... but you are still alive, right!?!

brad9798
01-07-2012, 12:30 AM
We will pick it up in the morning ... a bit before Midnight here! G'nite!

The Bigfella
01-07-2012, 12:50 AM
WOW! Bigfella is the International man of mystery, I guess ...

Indonesia 'investigated' you? Really? WOW!

Perhaps I am wrong ... and I assume I am ... but you are still alive, right!?!

Amazing eh? Don't get your knickers in a knot though Brad.

They snuck into our hotel at midnight because they thought the guy I was travelling with was an Iranian or Pakistani (a bit of racial profiling at work here.... not too good though, because he's Hungarian).... and demanded passports - checking them out via laptops. They only backed off after my mate pointed out his 3 year Australian work visa. Duh.

No worries of course. Approach these bods the right way and things get sorted.

The Bigfella
01-07-2012, 12:51 AM
The charge has begun, trumpets, drums, oil the presses. Prime the missiles .

The Libyan model again perhaps?

Waddie
01-07-2012, 02:26 AM
I don't know if Iran is even capable of more than puff and bluff. They do support terrorists and threaten oil shipments, but the country is pretty screwed up.

They have a huge heroin problem, bigger than anything in the West. With their military busy keeping the people in check, I doubt that they would risk any serious military escapades. And their military is far from united.

regards,
Waddie

ramillett
01-07-2012, 02:38 AM
Who's they'd ? not me :)

Farfalla
01-07-2012, 03:05 AM
"I wish they'd go into Iran and do the job properly"

She was anti the Shah, but as she said "The Shah had 300 political prisoners but this government has 3 million and has executed 1.5 million, I really wish they'd get rid of them."


She said that the people in Iraq see themselves as worse off now than under Saddam, but that this would not be the case in Iran.


I didn't think you had a sense of humour BF, but when I first looked at those fantasy figures I thought you must be having a joke with us.
But then I realised that it was just another one of your trolling techniques.
By putting the ridiculous figures in the mouth of an Iranian woman refugee you could hold up your hands and say "Not me" when the figures were shot down for the joke they are and claim to be all innocent.
Iranian, woman and ex-prisoner are all nice touches. I'm sure that she's all those things but that just adds to the game of you trolling doesn't it?

I'll play|;)

Amnesty International's report for 75/6 said that it was impossible to be accurate on the number of political prisoners being held by the SAVAK but accepted the figures were definitely between 25,000 and 100,000. They could be no closer given the reign of terror by the SAVAK, that wonderful organisation trained by guess who?
Just a little different from 300:D

Again they can't provide accurate figures for the present regime but 3million is ridiculous, max. apparently would be around 100,000.
As for 1.5 million executed, they say the number of executions are less than a 1000 a year. Basic arithmetic doesn't get you anywhere near your, sorry her, figures!
That would require 47,000 a year!
The only events around that region that give those sort of death rates, barring war and earthquakes are events like the sanctions placed on Iraq between wars. Madeline Albright admitted that 500,000 children had died as a result of those.
A rough estimate gives you about 50,000 a year.
Funny thats what they are pushing onto Iran now, maybe they are hoping for similar results.
After all these evil Iranians are trying to get WMD's and we all know how dangerous they are just look at Iraq, it was just bristling with them!


You need to be a little more careful with the figures when you troll, something a little more believable, makes it a bit easier to work with.
The Iranian woman was a nice touch. I'm sure that she's a really nice lady!

Dr. Arthur Trollingson
01-07-2012, 03:52 AM
Your friend is right, Ian. War is what the world needs. Bombs away!!!

EDIT: BTW, who should I get my hobo army to vote for? We need to make this war happen!!111!!!!

The Bigfella
01-07-2012, 03:52 AM
I didn't think you had a sense of humour BF, but when I first looked at those fantasy figures I thought you must be having a joke with us.
But then I realised that it was just another one of your trolling techniques.
By putting the ridiculous figures in the mouth of an Iranian woman refugee you could hold up your hands and say "Not me" when the figures were shot down for the joke they are and claim to be all innocent.
Iranian, woman and ex-prisoner are all nice touches. I'm sure that she's all those things but that just adds to the game of you trolling doesn't it?

I'll play|;)

Amnesty International's report for 75/6 said that it was impossible to be accurate on the number of political prisoners being held by the SAVAK but accepted the figures were definitely between 25,000 and 100,000. They could be no closer given the reign of terror by the SAVAK, that wonderful organisation trained by guess who?
Just a little different from 300:D

Again they can't provide accurate figures for the present regime but 3million is ridiculous, max. apparently would be around 100,000.
As for 1.5 million executed, they say the number of executions are less than a 1000 a year. Basic arithmetic doesn't get you anywhere near your, sorry her, figures!
That would require 47,000 a year!
The only events around that region that give those sort of death rates, barring war and earthquakes are events like the sanctions placed on Iraq between wars. Madeline Albright admitted that 500,000 children had died as a result of those.
A rough estimate gives you about 50,000 a year.
Funny thats what they are pushing onto Iran now, maybe they are hoping for similar results.
After all these evil Iranians are trying to get WMD's and we all know how dangerous they are just look at Iraq, it was just bristling with them!


You need to be a little more careful with the figures when you troll, something a little more believable, makes it a bit easier to work with.
The Iranian woman was a nice touch. I'm sure that she's a really nice lady!

Hello darls. How's things?

Paul Pless
01-07-2012, 04:04 AM
One of my college advisors, earned his equivalent to the BS of Science from the University of Tehran, before coming to the States to study Economics at the University of Chicago. He was 'called back' to Iran (for the umpteenth time) to fight in the Iran Iraq War. He didn't return and has never been able to return since. About the time I graduated college he was able to secure visas for his parents to enter the States from the U.K. A really interesting gentleman, I learned a lot from him.

Andrew Craig-Bennett
01-07-2012, 04:13 AM
Remind me why they have this problem?

Carter invited the Shah here for medical treatment and the people overthrew the government, right?

Then thet formed a constitution that gave final power to the religious leaders, who were known extremists.

Finally, the religious government persecutes everyone who defies them and seems bent on worldwide conversion by the sword.

So, why should we shed how much blood undoing their mistake? They screwed up and it cost them lives. They will spend more lives driving the religious leaders out of power. Get on with it and don't call on us to do it for you.

Right.

A nation gets the government it deserves.

They got theirs.

IF there was a popular nonviolent movement against the government, IF it gained widespread popular support and IF the regime threatened mass killings I would support a no fly zone on the libyan model.

But they had better get started first.

I am sick of middle class Iranians, doing nicely enough, who tell me that "they were against the Shah, had high hopes, but..."

In reality most of them had parents closely associated with the Shah, and they made their money in the usual ways in such places. They, the children of the Shah's henchmen, played revolutions and got a shock.

Right now I can think of ONE Iranian in the West who has done something impressive, and she is honest enough to admit to what her parents did.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camila_Batmanghelidjh

You may be able to add to this list. I shall be glad to learn of more.

Farfalla
01-07-2012, 04:17 AM
One of my college advisors, earned his equivalent to the BS of Science from the University of Tehran, before coming to the States to study Economics at the University of Chicago. He was 'called back' to Iran to fight in the Iran Iraq War. He didn't return and has never been able to return since. About the time I graduated college he was able to secure visas for his parents to enter the States from the U.K. A really interesting gentleman, I learned a lot from him.

That was the war where Iraq was financed by the US and the Gulf States and using chemical weapons provided by the US.
Death tolls similar to WWI!
Maybe that's where BF is getting his 1.5m dead from.
After all those pesky Iranians didn't just rollover and play dead when Iraq and it's backers decided to invade it so I guess in some sort of perverted twist of logic you could blame those deaths on them and not on the aggressors who started the war.
Isn't that how the self-righteous justify their slaughters?
Look how they got things going to invade Iraq, kill 500,000 children with sanctions first and then invade and kill a whole lot more civilians again after.
Imagine the bloodbath in Iran, but of course it will be those terrible pesky Iranians after all they are trying to get WMDs and we know what that means.

Paul Pless
01-07-2012, 04:26 AM
That was the war where Iraq was financed by the US and the Gulf States and using chemical weapons provided by the US. Gosh, are you being as bad as Bigfella. Cite where the United States provided chemical weapons to Iraq.

It wasn't just the U.S. and the Gulf States supplying Iraq? I believe that U.K. arms manufacturers and dealers were second only to the United States in the amount of sales and profits made in that war. (At least from the Iraqi side)

Paul Pless
01-07-2012, 04:30 AM
Gosh, are you being as bad as Bigfella. Cite where the United States provided chemical weapons to Iraq.

It wasn't just the U.S. and the Gulf States supplying Iraq, I believe that U.K. arms manufacturers and dealers were second only to the United States in the amount of sales and profits made in that war. (At least from the Iraqi side)

Britain both openly and clandestinely provided Iraq with tanks, troop carriers, artillery, aircraft, helicopters, battlefield radar, munitions, and parts, service, and support for all the above and more.

Fortunately for you (or not perhaps), your political intermediaries were much better than Rumsfeld was at being able to avoid being photographed shaking Saddam's hand.

Farfalla
01-07-2012, 04:35 AM
Paul, If you want to get a really good picture of that war and so much more I suggest you read Robert Fisk "The Great War for Civilisation".
on that particular topic his interview with the engineer, I think from memory Texan< who was working on the weapons plant in Iraq. Rumsfield was the spokesman for the US chemical industry at the time.
The US provide up to dat satellite weather info for the Iraqis to make sure that their chemical weapons didn't drift back on their own troops and the US had technical observers with the Iraqis during the times it was used.
when the Iranians tried to take the whole thing to the UN Security council the US vetoed it.
You'll enjoy the book, a bit long but so much detail!!

I'm suer that all the warmongers were busy selling arms. That's why they push for wars. Its all about profits for them. who gains from a war in Iran now that the iraqi war is winding down, at least for the US, and Afghanistan is next.
They've got to have another one happening to make money.
Dead people in the Middle East equals dollars in the stock exchanges of the West!

Andrew Craig-Bennett
01-07-2012, 04:39 AM
That was the war where Iraq was financed by the US and the Gulf States and using chemical weapons provided by the US.
Death tolls similar to WWI!
Maybe that's where BF is getting his 1.5m dead from.
After all those pesky Iranians didn't just rollover and play dead when Iraq and it's backers decided to invade it so I guess in some sort of perverted twist of logic you could blame those deaths on them and not on the aggressors who started the war.
Isn't that how the self-righteous justify their slaughters?
Look how they got things going to invade Iraq, kill 500,000 children with sanctions first and then invade and kill a whole lot more civilians again after.
Imagine the bloodbath in Iran, but of course it will be those terrible pesky Iranians after all they are trying to get WMDs and we know what that means.

Did you visit Iran during that war, Sophie?

I did.

In Tehran, there was no blackout, no dispersal of military aircraft at the airfield, in fact no evidence that a war of any kind was being fought, let alone one involving millions on a WW1 scale. I didn't believe it then and I don't believe it now.

PeterSibley
01-07-2012, 04:42 AM
Did you visit Iran during that war, Sophie?

I did.

In Tehran, there was no blackout, no dispersal of military aircraft at the airfield, in fact no evidence that a war of any kind was being fought, let alone one involving millions on a WW1 scale. I didn't believe it then and I don't believe it now.

Now there's something you don't read every day .

Andrew Craig-Bennett
01-07-2012, 04:43 AM
Summer of 1984

Farfalla
01-07-2012, 04:45 AM
So Robert Fisk's chapters about being on trains heading to the front and all that were fake.
The hundreds of thousands of dead on both sides were fake and their was no war, despite all the news coverage at the time, every body just created a big myth!!

But to what end?
Sure Andrew!

Farfalla
01-07-2012, 04:52 AM
So the UN resolution 598 which ended the war was also a fake and the repeated calls from the UN at the time were also fake because there was no war!
interesting!

Funny that Wiki, that source of instant knowledge is full of dates for battles and casualties but this war never happened.

LeeG
01-07-2012, 05:01 AM
If wishes were horses

carioca1232001
01-07-2012, 05:07 AM
.....Right now I can think of ONE Iranian in the West who has done something impressive, and she is honest enough to admit to what her parents did.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camila_Batmanghelidjh

You may be able to add to this list. I shall be glad to learn of more.

There were three Persian brothers in school with me in the early 60īs who carried the same surname. Their father was the Ambassador in Karachi, Pakistanīs capital city at the time.
On their next ambassadorial assignment, the parents decided against moving the boys, so as not to interrupt their schooling and entrusted them to the care of family friends of ours (the lady of the house was Persian, born and bred in Cairo, Egypt, where there used to be (20īs to 50īs) a significant number of professional people of other middle-eastern nationalities).
Those boys were so mischievous and nutty, they drove the host family up the wall ! As such were obliged to move out to a hotel by the main railway station and when that fell through, were finally reunited with their parents !
Definitely off course, but I always wondered where those boys could be !

Andrew Craig-Bennett
01-07-2012, 05:20 AM
So Robert Fisk's chapters about being on trains heading to the front and all that were fake.
The hundreds of thousands of dead on both sides were fake and their was no war, despite all the news coverage at the time, every body just created a big myth!!

But to what end?
Sure Andrew!

I can only report what I saw with my own eyes. I am sure that there was a war of sorts going on, and that fire was being exchanged, somewhere, but what I saw did not suggest in the slightest degree that that war was being prosecuted in anything like the way in which it was described as being fought. There were plenty of young men of military age wandering about the streets in a seemingly aimless way and a great many more of them wearing Revolutionary Guard uniforms and standing around with their AK47s in meetings that I was having with the Iranian Offshore Oil company, trying to get them to stop lying and to pay their bills.

No black out, no rationing. Military aircraft not at dispersal. It might have been a war, Sophie, but Not As We Know It.

Consider that this war went on for seven or eight years, inconclusively, against the very Iraqi army and air force which was knocked over in three weeks by the coalition during the Kuwait War.

I caught Robert Fisk out in an untruth concerning Libya, a nation that I know a bit about, last year.

So far as I am aware, he covered the Iran - Iraq war from Beirut.

Farfalla
01-07-2012, 05:40 AM
This is just the stuff about Chemical weapons, 100,000 casualties from it, But of course this didn't happen!


In a declassified report, the CIA estimated in 1991 that Iran had suffered more than 50,000 casualties from Iraq's use of several chemical weapons,[165] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran–Iraq_War#cite_note-164) but today the actual number of victims is estimated to more than 100,000, since the long term effects still cause casualties to this day.[166] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran–Iraq_War#cite_note-165)[167] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran–Iraq_War#cite_note-166)
The official estimate does not include the civilian population contaminated in bordering towns or the children and relatives of veterans, many of whom have developed blood, lung and skin complications, according to the Organization for Veterans of Iran. According to a 2002 article in the Star-Ledger (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star-Ledger):
"Nerve gas killed about 20,000 Iranian soldiers immediately, according to official reports. Of the 90,000 survivors, some 5,000 seek medical treatment regularly and about 1,000 are still hospitalized with severe, chronic conditions."[168] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran–Iraq_War#cite_note-167)

Iraq also used chemical weapons on Iranian civilians, killing many in villages and hospitals. Many civilians suffered severe burns and health problems, and still suffer from them.[169] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran–Iraq_War#cite_note-r1-168)
On 21 March 1986, the United Nations Security Council made a declaration stating that "members are profoundly concerned by the unanimous conclusion of the specialists that chemical weapons on many occasions have been used by Iraqi forces against Iranian troops and the members of the Council strongly condemn this continued use of chemical weapons in clear violation of the Geneva Protocol of 1925 which prohibits the use in war of chemical weapons." The United States was the only member who voted against the issuance of this statement.[170] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran–Iraq_War#cite_note-169) A mission to the region in 1988 found evidence of the use of chemical weapons, and was condemned in Security Council Resolution 612 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Security_Council_Resolution_612).



According to retired Colonel Walter Lang, senior defense intelligence officer for the United States Defense Intelligence Agency (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense_Intelligence_Agency) at the time, "the use of gas on the battlefield by the Iraqis was not a matter of deep strategic concern" to Reagan and his aides, because they "were desperate to make sure that Iraq did not lose."

The fact that there was no blackout in Tehran in 1984 reflects the fact that since late 1982 the war had turned into a stalemate along the borders between Iraq and Iran hundreds of miles from Tehran which is over 400 miles from the border at it's closest point and far more in most areas.
The extensive use of trenches, barbed wire, human wave attacks, chemical weapons and artillery barrages and massive casualties were among the WWI similarities.

But of course this didn't happen!

Andrew Craig-Bennett
01-07-2012, 05:43 AM
London is 577 miles from Berlin, Sophie.

Farfalla
01-07-2012, 05:45 AM
So far as I am aware, he covered the Iran - Iraq war from Beirut.


So he made up the chapters in his book describing the train trips in Iran at the time of the war and his interviews with Iraqi soldiers in Iraq. Amazing.
So did you challenge him about faking all this about the war, and all those other journalists and the UN etc. you must have been busy writing letters to papers and publishers to get all those things corrected.

Farfalla
01-07-2012, 05:48 AM
Andrew if you did a little bit of research about the matter rather than relying on you own limited observations on a brief visit you might know that there were actually very few air attacks against any of the major cities after the first few months of the war.
Unlike the US and Britain there was no "shock and AWE" destruction of civilian areas using millions of dollars of hardware.
research is helpful when you advance a position not just limited anecdotal observation.

Oh and by the way, I don't think I need a European geography lesson thankyou. I think I'm up on the basics by now!

and what major "untruth" did you catch him out about. The colour of a flag or something equally earth shattering.

Bob Adams
01-07-2012, 05:53 AM
Your friend is right, Ian. War is what the world needs. Bombs away!!!

EDIT: BTW, who should I get my hobo army to vote for? We need to make this war happen!!111!!!!

But according to our Aussie friends here THEY won WWII, so hows about lets let THEM go take care of Iran.

skuthorp
01-07-2012, 06:01 AM
Paul, If you want to get a really good picture of that war and so much more I suggest you read Robert Fisk "The Great War for Civilisation".
on that particular topic his interview with the engineer, I think from memory Texan< who was working on the weapons plant in Iraq. Rumsfield was the spokesman for the US chemical industry at the time.
The US provide up to dat satellite weather info for the Iraqis to make sure that their chemical weapons didn't drift back on their own troops and the US had technical observers with the Iraqis during the times it was used.
when the Iranians tried to take the whole thing to the UN Security council the US vetoed it.
You'll enjoy the book, a bit long but so much detail!!

I'm sure that all the warmongers were busy selling arms. That's why they push for wars. Its all about profits for them. who gains from a war in Iran now that the iraqi war is winding down, at least for the US, and Afghanistan is next.
They've got to have another one happening to make money.
Dead people in the Middle East equals dollars in the stock exchanges of the West!

Can't agree more. With the US cutting back the military the MIC will be desperate to promote anything that will prevent it happening.

Andrew Craig-Bennett
01-07-2012, 06:06 AM
Dear Apprentice Tar Baby,

You seem to be trying for Sam F's place on this forum as the most tedous and tendentious poster.

I don't need to "do research" - I lived through these events and amazingly I actually read the papers, watched the television and spent quite a lot of time in the AG. I am well aware of the war between Iran and Iraq.

Do you honestly imagine that I would have travelled to Tehran, the capital of a nation with whom Britain had no diplomatic relations, and of course no direct air connections, to try and get payment of a couple of milion dollars from one of their state controlled enterprises, without doing a good deal of homework first?

I merely report what I saw with my own eyes. If it conficts with the Fisk version of history, you are at liberty to choose Fisk.

The Bigfella
01-07-2012, 06:08 AM
But according to our Aussie friends here THEY won WWII, so hows about lets let THEM go take care of Iran.

Jeez, get it right Bob.... I said the Russians won WW2 and the Chinese tied up the Japanese.

The Bigfella
01-07-2012, 06:11 AM
Dear Apprentice Tar Baby,

You seem to be trying for Sam F's place on this forum as the most tedous and tendentious poster.

I don't need to "do research" - I lived through these events and amazingly I actually read the papers, watched the television and spent quite a lot of time in the AG. I am well aware of the war between Iran and Iraq.

Do you honestly imagine that I would have travelled to Tehran, the capital of a nation with whom Britain had no diplomatic relations, and of course no direct air connections, to try and get payment of a couple of milion dollars from one of their state controlled enterprises, without doing a good deal of homework first?

I merely report what I saw with my own eyes. If it conficts with the Fisk version of history, you are at liberty to choose Fisk.


I'm still waiting for her apology for the outrageous lie she told last night. I'm not holding my breath. She's not exactly arguing from a position of strength after that one.

PeterSibley
01-07-2012, 06:18 AM
Dear Apprentice Tar Baby,

You seem to be trying for Sam F's place on this forum as the most tedous and tendentious poster.



I can't agree Andrew , the debate is largely civil an well worth reading .You may not be enjoying it but I am .

The Bigfella
01-07-2012, 06:22 AM
I can't agree Andrew , the debate is largely civil an well worth reading .You may not be enjoying it but I am .

There's even some decent humour in it. Fancy someone raising the old WMD issue, then relying on the source of the WMD issue a post or two later.

Farfalla
01-07-2012, 06:24 AM
Dear Apprentice Tar Baby,

You seem to be trying for Sam F's place on this forum as the most tedous and tendentious poster.

I don't need to "do research" - I lived through these events and amazingly I actually read the papers, watched the television and spent quite a lot of time in the AG. I am well aware of the war between Iran and Iraq.

Do you honestly imagine that I would have travelled to Tehran, the capital of a nation with whom Britain had no diplomatic relations, and of course no direct air connections, to try and get payment of a couple of milion dollars from one of their state controlled enterprises, without doing a good deal of homework first?

I merely report what I saw with my own eyes. If it conficts with the Fisk version of history, you are at liberty to choose Fisk.

It's not just Fisk who has a different version of the events it's all the major sources.
So if you have so much expertise that you
don't need to "do research" .
How about you try explaining away just a few of those matters I raised, after all you are the expert.

And as far as "tendentious and Tedious" I leave that honour to your most "Pompous" and "self inflated" self Sir!

if you are going topresent a position then have facts to back it up rather than relying on slurs like trying to compare me to Sam F.
When in fact you are actually mirroring his technique of making statements and then not being able to back them up with facts and trying to claim some superior position for your unsupported statements.
you are more than welcome to correct all the errors that the historians and reporters, the UN and all the rest have made!
Go for it, I'm happy to be dazzled by your display of erudition and wisdom.
I defer to a position based on facts not on the pretentions of the presenter!

Let me get some popcorn and a comfy chair.:D

Waddie
01-07-2012, 06:32 AM
Jeez, get it right Bob.... I said the Russians won WW2 and the Chinese tied up the Japanese.

Not trying to hijack the thread, sorry.

Bigfella, what you say here is true to an extent, but not very complete. WWll was a war of materiel. American factories won WWll. Our materiel aid to Russia, China and England (and the Commonwealth) made it possible for the Russians to take on over 200 German divisions. And made it possible for China to tie up the Japanese, though the Americans did the majority of fighting in that theater. American food aid and our convoy system made the survival of England possible.

Maybe this topic deserves it's own thread.

regards,
Waddie

Farfalla
01-07-2012, 06:35 AM
There's even some decent humour in it. Fancy someone raising the old WMD issue, then relying on the source of the WMD issue a post or two later.
That's OK BF, if you can't follow the details of the debate its OK. You can get the "Readers Digest" version next week!

carioca1232001
01-07-2012, 06:44 AM
I can't agree Andrew , the debate is largely civil an well worth reading .You may not be enjoying it but I am .

When emotions get in the way, people lose their rationality.

That there was no Iran-Iraq war worth mentioning, well the more senior memebers on this board have seen that one before !

Some parts of Iran were so decimated in matter of young men lost in that futile war, that there is till today a demographic imbalance.

The Bigfella
01-07-2012, 06:46 AM
That's OK BF, if you can't follow the details of the debate its OK. You can get the "Readers Digest" version next week!

Oh, so droll.

PeterSibley
01-07-2012, 06:49 AM
Not trying to hijack the thread, sorry.

Bigfella, what you say here is true to an extent, but not very complete. WWll was a war of materiel. American factories won WWll. Our materiel aid to Russia, China and England (and the Commonwealth) made it possible for the Russians to take on over 200 German divisions. And made it possible for China to tie up the Japanese, though the Americans did the majority of fighting in that theater. American food aid and our convoy system made the survival of England possible.

Maybe this topic deserves it's own thread.

regards,
Waddie

A good idea, you've made a few funny statements already but we best leave this thread alone .

The Bigfella
01-07-2012, 06:50 AM
Not trying to hijack the thread, sorry.

Bigfella, what you say here is true to an extent, but not very complete. WWll was a war of materiel. American factories won WWll. Our materiel aid to Russia, China and England (and the Commonwealth) made it possible for the Russians to take on over 200 German divisions. And made it possible for China to tie up the Japanese, though the Americans did the majority of fighting in that theater. American food aid and our convoy system made the survival of England possible.

Maybe this topic deserves it's own thread.

regards,
Waddie

Agreed... separate issue entirely, so happy to discuss it elsewhere. We did the topic a while back. Whilst there was no doubting the usefulness of such aid, it must be remembered that the bulk of it arrived well after Germany had already been turned (about the time of Pearl Harbour).... and much of it was actually held back by the Russians.... as those who fought in Korea may recall, as they came up against it there.

Now... back to normal programming.

The Bigfella
01-07-2012, 06:59 AM
..... snip..... Death tolls similar to WWI!
........ snip.


When emotions get in the way, people lose their rationality.

That there was no Iran-Iraq war worth mentioning, well the more senior memebers on this board have seen that one before !

Some parts of Iran were so decimated in matter of young men lost in that futile war, that there is till today a demographic imbalance.

I think the issue that Andrew took exception to was the crap posted by Sophie above.

WW1 had total military casualties approaching 20 million military dead/missing in four years. The Iran-Iraq war had casualties of around half a million.

Sophie's not known around here for letting facts get in the way of bluster and abuse.

Farfalla
01-07-2012, 07:07 AM
Bf is
not known around here for letting facts get in the way of bluster and abuse.


300 political prisoners but this government has 3 million and has executed 1.5 million,

says it all1
Oh that's right you didn't say it, the iranian woman did how could I have forgotten that!!

If you don't have anything positive to add to the debate BF try exercising some restraint.

By the way I'm still waiting to get banned. You said you were going to do that last night!

Andrew Craig-Bennett
01-07-2012, 07:12 AM
Having read the reports (by Fisk, amongst others) before I went, what I saw did not conform to what I had read. What was described was something like a European "total" war; what I saw did not confirm that impression. I don't think either side was trying very hard.

The Bigfella
01-07-2012, 07:13 AM
Bf is



says it all1
Oh that's right you didn't say it, the iranian woman did how could I have forgotten that!!

If you don't have anything positive to add to the debate BF try exercising some restraint.

By the way I'm still waiting to get banned. You said you were going to do that last night!


Oh dear... another one that "isn't quite right".

What I said last night was that I was going to report my own post - the one where I called you a liar after you claimed that I'd written that women had no place on a guys forum. I've never written, nor said that - nor do I believe it. Have you no shame?

PeterSibley
01-07-2012, 07:14 AM
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/war/iran-iraq.htm

This gives a fairly comprehensive coverage of the war .

The Bigfella
01-07-2012, 07:21 AM
Having read the reports (by Fisk, amongst others) before I went, what I saw did not conform to what I had read. What was described was something like a European "total" war; what I saw did not confirm that impression. I don't think either side was trying very hard.

Which is exactly what my friend is saying now about the situation in Iran, versus what is in the media.

Manufacturing has been decimated by the downturn in the economy, imports are significantly up in price and people are hurting.

Just checked the exchange rate Rials per US dollar – 17,200 (January 2012), 10,308 (2010), 9,864 (2009), 9,143 (2008), 9,408 (2007), 9,227 (2006); 8,964 (2005); 8,885 (2004); 8,193 (2003)

Farfalla
01-07-2012, 07:22 AM
Having read the reports (by Fisk, amongst others) before I went, what I saw did not conform to what I had read. What was described was something like a European "total" war; what I saw did not confirm that impression. I don't think either side was trying very hard.

So all those dead people came about from a war where people weren't trying very hard!

And your extensive tour of the country and the war zones hundreds of miles from Tehran were how long? Just a rough estimate of the weeks you spent in the war zones.


this war where no-one was trying very hard involved Iraq receiving

$35 billion in loans from the West and between $30 and $40 billion from the Persian Gulf states during the 1980s

Lot of money for a war where you are not trying. And that was just one side.

Again I'm waiting for some of the erudition, the facts that are just going to knock me over and convince me that everyone else got it wrong and you are the only true source.


The Iraqgate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraqgate) scandal revealed that an Atlanta (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlanta) branch of Italy's largest bank, Banca Nazionale del Lavoro (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banca_Nazionale_del_Lavoro), relying partially on U.S. taxpayer-guaranteed loans, funneled $5 billion to Iraq from 1985 to 1989. In August 1989, when FBI (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Bureau_of_Investigation) agents finally raided the Atlanta branch of BNL, the branch manager, Christopher Drogoul, was charged with making unauthorized, clandestine, and illegal loans to Iraq – some of which, according to his indictment, were used to purchase arms and weapons technology.The New York Times (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_Times), the Los Angeles Times (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Los_Angeles_Times), and ABC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Broadcasting_Company)'s Ted Koppel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Koppel), covered the Iraq-gate story, and the investigation by the U.S. Congress.[163] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran–Iraq_War#cite_note-FAS-162) This scandal is covered in Alan Friedman's book The Spider's Web: The Secret History of How the White House Illegally Armed Iraq.[clarification needed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Please_clarify)]
Beginning in September 1989, the Financial Times (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financial_Times) laid out the first charges that BNL, relying heavily on U.S. government-guaranteed loans, was funding Iraqi chemical and nuclear weapons work. For the next two and a half years, the Financial Times provided the only continuous newspaper reportage (over 300 articles) on the subject. Among the companies shipping militarily useful technology to Iraq under the eye of the U.S. government, according to the Financial Times, were Hewlett-Packard (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hewlett-Packard), Tektronix (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tektronix), andMatrix Churchill (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arms-to-Iraq), through its Ohio (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ohio) branch

So this financial trail has US govt. backed loans being used to fund the Iraqi chemical and nuclear weapons programs during the war that wasn't a real war.

I have a big bowl of popcorn to eat while I wait, but I still haven't seen you come up with a single fact as substantial as the inside of my popcorn!!

Farfalla
01-07-2012, 07:29 AM
Oh dear... another one that "isn't quite right".

What I said last night was that I was going to report my own post - the one where I called you a liar after you claimed that I'd written that women had no place on a guys forum. I've never written, nor said that - nor do I believe it. Have you no shame?

your welcome to provide the quote where I said that you'd written that. Like I told Andrew I have a big bowl of popcorn and i'm happy to wait for one of you 2 guys to come up with some facts. But seriously BF, like I said if you have nothing of substance to add to this debate why don't you just sit down and listen, you might learn something. You want to slag me off go and open a thread and do it to your hearts content. You are irrelevant to this discussion at this time.

Andrew Craig-Bennett
01-07-2012, 07:30 AM
I spent a week in the capital city of a nation which was reported to be fighting for its life with mass mobilisation of its young men. No blackout.no rationing, plenty of young men around. And most surprisingly a couple of squadrons of F4s parked up in lines, not at dispersal, on the military side of the airport, visible from the departure lounge.

That is what I saw.

Now tell me if you would have seen the same sort of thing in London in the years 1939-45?

I have never been to Chamonix, and I suspect that you were never in Tehran or Baghdad during the Iran-Iraq war.

Farfalla
01-07-2012, 07:40 AM
[QUOTENow tell me if you would have seen the same sort of thing in London in the years 1939-45?[/QUOTE]

London was in the middle of a war in which both sides staged massive and prolonged aerial attacks on urban sites over a period of years. That was never a tactic used in this war by either side.

Now I'm still waiting for all those facts to discredit every other source on the war except the "Gospel according to ST. Andy." because that's what your argt. is beginning to look like, one based on your own beliefs and not a single fact.
Sorry but I'm not a true believer. You are going to needa few stone tablets inscribed with facts or a couple of burning bushes to help you out here.
Your position is looking very untenable at this stage Andrew.
You could just admit that all you have is your own limited view and that everyone else actually got there facts right. Maybe they know just a bit more about an 8 year war than an office guy for a shipping company on a 1 week trip to a city hundreds of miles away.

Andrew Craig-Bennett
01-07-2012, 07:50 AM
[QUOTENow tell me if you would have seen the same sort of thing in London in the years 1939-45?

London was in the middle of a war in which both sides staged massive and prolonged aerial attacks on urban sites over a period of years. That was never a tactic used in this war by either side.

[/QUOTE]

THAT was my point!

Chris Coose
01-07-2012, 07:50 AM
"I wish they'd go into Iran and do the job properly"

After a sentence like that, I withdraw from the conversation immediately.

Doing the job properly could include statements like, "turning the sand to glass".

Andrew Craig-Bennett
01-07-2012, 07:52 AM
And note the enthusiasm for recruiting "them" to do a" job" for the expatriate Iranian middle classes! :pmad:

The Bigfella
01-07-2012, 07:54 AM
"I wish they'd go into Iran and do the job properly"

After a sentence like that, I withdraw from the conversation immediately.

Doing the job properly could include statements like, "turning the sand to glass".

Not my words .... but a direct quote today from an Iranian lady. Not that some low-lifes won't want to misrepresent that fact, but I did make it clear right from the start.... and no Chris, you are not in that category, of course.

The Bigfella
01-07-2012, 07:55 AM
And note the enthusiasm for recruiting "them" to do a" job" for the expatriate Iranian middle classes! :pmad:

She did her bit over there Andrew and had a pretty horrible five years in gaol for it. She made the point too that people are forced to declare a position. Its pretty nasty stuff.

Chris Coose
01-07-2012, 07:57 AM
I understood that Ian.

Normal type people who have not considered the open endendness of "doing the job properly", I consider to be a bit dangerous in their own right.

Farfalla
01-07-2012, 07:58 AM
low-lifes

Such a polite guy. Just what i called you on last night and almost every interaction I've had with you. If you can't do this without abuse go play with the little kids, they act like that. you are supposed to be an adult on an adult public forum, try to act like it for a change. you really are boring when you keep this rubbish up. time to grow up.

Andrew Craig-Bennett
01-07-2012, 07:59 AM
I agree that it is a horrible regime. Dishonest, duplicitous, corrupt and cruel.

Farfalla
01-07-2012, 08:05 AM
London was in the middle of a war in which both sides staged massive and prolonged aerial attacks on urban sites over a period of years. That was never a tactic used in this war by either side.



THAT was my point![/QUOTE]

And so?
What does that prove. neither side had major air forces and the tactics they used were very similar to WWI battles. That is the whole point and you are just trying to dance around it.
So lay aside the "Gospel according to ST Andy" and come up with a few facts that discredit all those other sources. Every major paper, historians, the UN and a host of other agencies, have at them. Lets see you produce the facts not the faith based perceptions of a lone observer who by his own admission spent a week hundreds of miles from the front lines. Unlike the sources he claims are false!

Popcorn, good to eat but insubstantial like your arguments..

The Bigfella
01-07-2012, 08:08 AM
Such a polite guy. Just what i called you on last night and almost every interaction I've had with you. If you can't do this without abuse go play with the little kids, they act like that. you are supposed to be an adult on an adult public forum, try to act like it for a change. you really are boring when you keep this rubbish up. time to grow up.

The funny thing about interactions with you is that you launch into attack mode without justification and normally with inaccurate data and sometimes with outright lies.... as you've demonstrated again tonight. That's never going to result in adult-adult interactions.

If you've got a short term memory problem, let me refresh it

This was you on post #46




Oh that's right you didn't say it, the iranian woman did how could I have forgotten that!!

.... snip.....

By the way I'm still waiting to get banned. You said you were going to do that last night!



Of course.... you wouldn't see a lie, claiming that I'd lied in the first line and then another outright lie by you in the third line as kid's stuff.

Would you?

You come to every discussion with slurs, lies and aggression. None of which deserves an ounce of respect.

Farfalla
01-07-2012, 08:14 AM
Oh that's right you didn't say it, the iranian woman did how could I have forgotten that!!

point out where in that I claimed you've lied. When you can't then you can apologise and keep your comments to your self because they are a waste of time and that's the polite version!

Andrew Craig-Bennett
01-07-2012, 08:15 AM
THAT was my point!

And so?
What does that prove. neither side had major air forces and the tactics they used were very similar to WWI battles. That is the whole point and you are just trying to dance around it.
So lay aside the "Gospel according to ST Andy" and come up with a few facts that discredit all those other sources. Every major paper, historians, the UN and a host of other agencies, have at them. Lets see you produce the facts not the faith based perceptions of a lone observer who by his own admission spent a week hundreds of miles from the front lines. Unlike the sources he claims are false!

Popcorn, good to eat but insubstantial like your arguments..[/QUOTE]

You had better do some homework.

I suppose this was done by paper darts:


http://www.oilspillsolutions.org/13480640.jpg

You are apparently a friend of someone whom I like and respect. I have therefore tried to be as nice as I can, but my patience is now at an end. Find someone else to play with.

Farfalla
01-07-2012, 08:18 AM
So Andrew this proves your point how?

Time for you to do your homework and disprove all those dead, the chemical weapons attacks and everything else you claimed were not really happening. including the fact that Fisk faked all his reports from iramn and Iraq, you claimed he was in beirut all the time. Homework, I think thats something you need to do.

The Bigfella
01-07-2012, 08:20 AM
point out where in that I claimed you've lied. When you can't then you can apologise and keep your comments to your self because they are a waste of time and that's the polite version!

Sure... no problem. Here


By putting the ridiculous figures in the mouth of an Iranian woman refugee you could hold up your hands and say "Not me" when the figures were shot down for the joke they are and claim to be all innocent.


That's post 10 btw.

I didn't make any such false claims

Farfalla
01-07-2012, 08:23 AM
you presented figures that were ridiculous and I said that they came from her, via you. I never said that you lied. So as that was your chance you can now apologise and go away Bye Bye, time to leave the adults to talk.


Oh that's right you didn't say it, the iranian woman did how could I have forgotten that!!


claiming that I'd lied in the first line
This is where you claimed I ;ied and you were going to prove the lie in that.
Obviously you couldn't so off you ran to an even less plausible one.

Like I said you had your shot and failed. Leave the adults to talk now BF, go and play with you r toy motorbikes in the corner.

Farfalla
01-07-2012, 08:49 AM
So the official war dead for the 8year Iran/Iraq war is more than the official death toll for the 10 year Iraq war and yet some people are claiming that the Iran/Iraq war wasn't really that much of a war and that they weren't really trying that hard. Strange logic unless they think that the Iraq war was just a minor picnic with a few dummy spits over access to the barbecue!

McMike
01-07-2012, 08:55 AM
Thanks for posting that Mark.

LeeG
01-07-2012, 08:58 AM
Hey Ian, was your guest any more specific about who "they" are and what the "finishing" process involves?

John Smith
01-07-2012, 09:07 AM
It appears the sanctions are having an impact. Is it not possible that this time next year we'll look back with hindsight and see the situation as well handled?

Farfalla
01-07-2012, 09:09 AM
Yes, I agree. Mark I finally got time to look at you video, thankyou. We need a lot more of that attitude and a lot less of the bomb em back to the stone age" mentality.

Farfalla
01-07-2012, 09:11 AM
Sanctions against Iraq for nonexistent WMD's cost the lives of 500,000 Iraqi children, a figure admitted by Madeline Albright the UN amabassador at the time.

John Smith
01-07-2012, 09:14 AM
Points well taken. To what extent are the internal workings of Iran our business?

P.I. Stazzer-Newt
01-07-2012, 09:17 AM
Points well taken. To what extent are the internal workings of Iran our business?

To precisely the extent that we buggered them up.....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat

LeeG
01-07-2012, 09:52 AM
trolling,trolling,trolling, yeee haa!

Ian, here's one writers idea to "finish the job", bring about world wide depression so the demand and price of oil plummets for 6mo or so! Brilliant!

http://www.businessinsider.com/want-to-put-iran-out-of-business-heres-how-2012-1

Those attempting to pressure Iran by increasing "tensions" and thus the price of oil have it precisely backwards. The one sure way to fatally destabilize the Iranian theocracy is to adjust the demand and supply of oil so the price plummets (as it did in December 2008) to $25/barrel, and stays there for at least six months.
It has been estimated that the Iranian theocracy cannot fund its bloated bureaucracies, military and its welfare state if oil falls below around $40-$45/barrel. Drop oil to $25/barrel and keep it there, and the Iranian regime will implode, along with the Chavez regime in Venezuela.
Saber-rattling actually aids the Iranian regime by artificially injecting a "disruptive war" premium into the price of oil: they can make the same profits from fewer barrels of oil.
The way to put them out of business is drop the price of oil and restrict their sales by whatever means are available. They will be selling fewer barrels and getting less than production costs for those barrels. With no income, the regime will face the wrath of a people who have become dependent on the State for their sustenance and subsidized fuel.
How do you drop oil to $25/barrel? Easy: stop saber-rattling in the mideast and engineer a massive global recession with a side order of low-level trade war.Though you wouldn't know it from the high price of oil, the world is awash in oil; storage facilities are full, and production has actually increased a bit in North America.
Long-term, Peak Oil is a reality; but in the short-term, production is more than adequate to meet recession-suppressed demand.
The way to drop oil from $100/barrel to $25/barrel is to crush demand via global depression. Let's face it, the global economy is already slipping into depression as credit bubbles pop and austerity and rising debt service expenses bleed off disposable income.
We can nudge the global demand for oil off a cliff with a few other policies, for example, a low-grade trade war with China and Japan.

Read more: http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/google/RzFQ/~3/Ggt5-lq35UM/want-to-put-iran-out-of-business-heres.html#ixzz1imgnGaoS

Gerarddm
01-07-2012, 11:13 AM
It is instructive that some people scream loud about American hegemony, yet complain when we don't or won't show 'leadership' in fixing the world's problems. The House of Saud wants us to "cut off the head of the snake"? Let them ask the Arab League instead.

But you can tell your Iranian pal that Stuxnet et al is evidence that somebody is doing the job properly, I.e. covertly and without overt war.

pefjr
01-07-2012, 11:20 AM
Neda

carioca1232001
01-07-2012, 02:24 PM
It is instructive that some people scream loud about American hegemony, yet complain when we don't or won't show 'leadership' in fixing the world's problems. The House of Saud wants us to "cut off the head of the snake"? Let them ask the Arab League instead.

But you can tell your Iranian pal that Stuxnet et al is evidence that somebody is doing the job properly, I.e. covertly and without overt war.

House of Saud ? Before cutting the head off of whosoever, they ought to try their hand at ...simple circumcision on one of of their male offspring ! ;)

I suppose the money they have impresses some people, but besides that, just think.....stone age !

fishrswim
01-07-2012, 03:27 PM
"I wish "they'd go"... Certainly not you. But someone elses kid, or husband, or father or daughter. Certainly not yours. Pretty brave, when it's not you or yours. But if you really want to go, I'll bet we can pitch in and buy you a ticket.

PeterSibley
01-07-2012, 03:55 PM
To precisely the extent that we buggered them up.....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d'état (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat)

That bears reposting in the light of Andrew saying somewhere above that countries get the government they deserve. Iran got the government chosen by Britain and the US .

WX
01-07-2012, 04:13 PM
The Iran-Iraq war was similar to WW1 in that it became a trench war with high battle casualties. The US and other countries) did supply chemical weapons to Iraq, they also provided conventional bombs along with the target information on where to drop them. You could say it was an American war by proxy. This is how the Cold War was fought. The US and the USSR using other countries to fight each other in their game of global chess.

Andrew Craig-Bennett
01-07-2012, 04:41 PM
That bears reposting in the light of Andrew saying somewhere above that countries get the government they deserve. Iran got the government chosen by Britain and the US .

They had a government chosen by us in the 1950's, they overthrew that one in the 1970's and they chose the one they've got now.

PeterSibley
01-07-2012, 05:01 PM
They had a government chosen by us in the 1950's, they overthrew that one in the 1970's and they chose the one they've got now.

and not surprisingly there is strong anti Western feeling. I wonder if the citizens of our Western countries can even conceive of having a foreign country engineer the overthrow of it's democratically elected government ? Britain ? USA ? Australia?

The Bigfella
01-07-2012, 05:20 PM
Hey Ian, was your guest any more specific about who "they" are and what the "finishing" process involves?


"I wish "they'd go"... Certainly not you. But someone elses kid, or husband, or father or daughter. Certainly not yours. Pretty brave, when it's not you or yours. But if you really want to go, I'll bet we can pitch in and buy you a ticket.

No, she wasn't more specific and I didn't pursue the matter as she was clearly distressed about the situation. I took "they" to mean the UN or the nations behind the sanctions. We had a bit of a discussion about Iraq and how a promising start there had degraded over time.

People with longer memories around here may recall that I posted some commentary by an Oz Army Middle East specialist way back when we first went in there. I well remember him saying, over a bottle or two of red at the officers mess at Puckapunyal, that he couldn't understand how the Americans could march into Iraq and expect the locals to put roses in the barrels of their rifles.

There are some models around for better managing regime change. Iraq isn't one of them.

Perhaps Sophie would share her views with us on how women and children are faring in Afghanistan now, relative to say a dozen or so years ago? Are "we" doing the right thing there?

As for me going over. No worries. Send that ticket. I'll help. A very good friend of mine is there doing just that at the moment (helping in Afghanistan, that is).... he's due home next weekend, and another good friend, a senior politician will be there soon too.

Send it quick though, I'm heading off to Laos in six weeks to catch up with another friend who is working on rebuilding that country.... some 50 years after it was bombed into the stone age by.... guess who. Unlike a lot of the aid specialists and UN Goons I've run across in the third world countries, he's not doing it for the money (his "salary" is about $300 a month). He's doing it because he can make a difference.

My last bit of helping was rebuilding a burnt out building left over from the US/Australian-supported invasion of Timor-Leste for a youth centre and funding its ongoing activities.

What was yours?

Andrew Craig-Bennett
01-07-2012, 05:22 PM
and not surprisingly there is strong anti Western feeling. I wonder if the citizens of our Western countries can even conceive of having a foreign country engineer the overthrow of it's democratically elected government ? Britain ? USA ? Australia?

I can remember the invasion of a part of my country by another and I remember my feelings at the time, which were quite strong. But I have no difficulty in getting on with the Argentinians whom I meet.

The events of the early 1950s are now beyond the living memory of anyone younger than their late sixties. The strong anti western feeling which certainly exists in Iran exists because the overthrow of Mossadeq is constantly harped on by propagandists.

The Bigfella
01-07-2012, 05:25 PM
and not surprisingly there is strong anti Western feeling. I wonder if the citizens of our Western countries can even conceive of having a foreign country engineer the overthrow of it's democratically elected government ? Britain ? USA ? Australia?

I believe there was some US consideration of doing that to the Whitlam government here in the early 70's.... but we started to toe the line with, for example, our support of Ford's suggestion that the Indonesians invade East Timor.

PeterSibley
01-07-2012, 05:36 PM
I believe there was some US consideration of doing that to the Whitlam government here in the early 70's.... but we started to toe the line with, for example, our support of Ford's suggestion that the Indonesians invade East Timor.

Yep, we got the message and bent over and grabbed our ankles .The Iranians on the other hand weren't as cooperative .

Farfalla
01-07-2012, 06:01 PM
I can remember the invasion of a part of my country by another and I remember my feelings at the time, which were quite strong. But I have no difficulty in getting on with the Argentinians whom I meet.

The events of the early 1950s are now beyond the living memory of anyone younger than their late sixties. The strong anti western feeling which certainly exists in Iran exists because the overthrow of Mossadeq is constantly harped on by propagandists.

So the anti-Western feeling that exists in Iran is all to do with propaganda and the fact that the West supplied and directly supported Iraq in an 8 year war that killed hundreds of thousands of people has no bearing on it at all.
The fact that when Iran went to the UN about the use of Chemical weapons the US blocked the Security council from acting also has nothing to do with the feeling, purely propagandist beat up.
The fact that the USS Vincennes shot down a totally defenceless Airbus full of civilians for no reason at all and has still refused to admit it's mistake is no cause for anti-Western feeling.
The fact that the US totally supported the Shah in all his horror has nothing to do with the anti-Western feeling.

I dont think I need to go any further but I'm happy to if you wish. And by the way all those events happened well within the memory of Iranian citizens and I don't think you'll find any need for propagandists to point that out to them.

As for the Falklands war, now that was a perfect example of a war fought for political grandstanding on both sides without a doubt. But to use your rules it wasn't a real war because they didn't obliterate each others cities.

Andrew Craig-Bennett
01-07-2012, 06:10 PM
Try reading the post to which my response relates.

Farfalla
01-07-2012, 06:12 PM
I did and that's why I quoted your post.
:d

purri
01-07-2012, 06:13 PM
A source states war dead Iran/Iraq 700K to 1.1M plus equivalent wounded. Others arrive at a median of 700K plus.

Hardly a "minor" engagement.

As I understand Iran has abt 70% of the popn under 35, is highly urbanised, has a large technocrat middle class and is chafing with resentment toward the theocracy. However should military incursions take place the nation would unify. With 75 million people it's not a cakewalk! The invaders would lose big time.

Andrew Craig-Bennett
01-07-2012, 06:19 PM
I did and that's why I quoted your post.
:d

I think maybe it's time for the deep, deep peace of the "ignore" button

Farfalla
01-07-2012, 06:23 PM
The pleasures all mine! you wouldn't have to resort to it if you argued from a reasonable position instead of ignoring all the facts in preference to your own views.
enjoy the peace and quiet! But I will feel free to comment on your posts as they will still be in the public arena.
ByeBY:D

The Bigfella
01-07-2012, 07:16 PM
The pleasures all mine! you wouldn't have to resort to it if you argued from a reasonable position instead of ignoring all the facts in preference to your own views.
enjoy the peace and quiet! But I will feel free to comment on your posts as they will still be in the public arena.
ByeBY:D

I thought Andrew argued from quite a reasonable position.

Sophie, on the other hand, started with a personal attack in post #10 "fantasy.... trolling....etc" and followed it up with the ridiculous comparison of the Iran-Iraq War with WW1.... "Death tolls similar to WWI!" in post #15.

I pointed out in post 45 that:

"WW1 had total military casualties approaching 20 million military dead/missing in four years. The Iran-Iraq war had casualties of around half a million."

Damned if I can figure out how Sophie can reconcile those facts with her statements? ... oh, and this one: "I defer to a position based on facts not on the pretentions of the presenter!"

P.I. Stazzer-Newt
01-07-2012, 07:18 PM
The events of the early 1950s are now beyond the living memory of anyone younger than their late sixties. The strong anti western feeling which certainly exists in Iran exists because the overthrow of Mossadeq is constantly harped on by propagandists.

"...but for freedom alone...." (1320) and still quoted not only by Scots, but from time to time by Englishmen too.

Sixty years is barely the blink of an eye - I can believe that the Iranians will eventually forgive the west for that piece of meddling but I cannot imagine they will forget.

Bigfella's friend is entitled to her dreams - but nobody in the west should be so stupid as to mess with the internal politics of another country -let 'em solve their own mess.


"

The Bigfella
01-07-2012, 07:21 PM
"...but for freedom alone...." (1320) and still quoted not only by Scots, but from time to time by Englishmen too.

Sixty years is barely the blink of an eye - I can believe that the Iranians will eventually forgive the west for that piece of meddling but I cannot imagine they will forget.

Bigfella's friend is entitled to her dreams - but nobody in the west should be so stupid as to mess with the internal politics of another country -let 'em solve their own mess.


"

What's your view of what happened in Libya this last year?

Farfalla
01-07-2012, 07:25 PM
Easy, compare the relative populations of the combatants in a war between those two countries and the populations involved in a WWI and you'd be able to understand it. When you factor in the tactics employed for most of the war you'll see it even clearer but you'd prefer the views espoused by Andrew, then go for it. holding views contrary to facts, maybe its common for some people.
As for Andrew's position, he failed to provide a single fact supported by anything other than his own personal observation during one week in a city hundreds of miles from the frontlines in a war that had been reduced to a stalemate very similar to what most of WWI was. The fact that Parisians could continue their lifestyle during WWI is well documented even though it was far closer to the front line.
The fact that his position is at total odds with every other "qualified" commentator speaks for itself.

P.I. Stazzer-Newt
01-07-2012, 07:27 PM
What's your view of what happened in Libya this last year?

90% of that appeared to be Libyans sorting out their own mess.

Syria looks somewhat similar.

Peter Malcolm Jardine
01-07-2012, 07:34 PM
I can't imagine why Iran dislikes the US.

I don't need to, the facts speak for themselves.

The Bigfella
01-07-2012, 07:36 PM
This is the same British person who wondered aloud about what effect would result from the US having a real military man as President.:d

She's a classic. Apparently I harbour some deep seated desire to have been in the military too.... because I had someone take a photo of me shooting an AK47 specifically for one of the gun threads on here.

The Bigfella
01-07-2012, 08:09 PM
Sanctions against Iraq for nonexistent WMD's cost the lives of 500,000 Iraqi children, a figure admitted by Madeline Albright the UN amabassador at the time.

Perhaps you'd tell us just where this number comes from and whether you believe it? We know of course, that US presentations to the UN aren't necessarily reliable, so let's just see if there's anything to back it up eh?

This quote appears to be the source. Its from UNICEF

"500,000 children (including sanctions, collateral effects of war). "[As of 1999] [c]hildren under 5 years of age are dying at more than twice the rate they were ten years ago."

cited here... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_sanctions#Estimates_of_deaths_due_to_sanction s

The sanctions ran from 1990 to 2003.

Here's some interesting UN stats. They show a steady decline in infant mortality since 1950-55 (197.6 deaths per 1,000) decreasing steadily until it was at 43.4 when the sanctions began, 38.1 mid-sanction period and 35.9 by the time they ended and down a touch more to 34.6 for 2005-10.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Iraq

CWSmith
01-07-2012, 10:33 PM
I agree that it is a horrible regime. Dishonest, duplicitous, corrupt and cruel.

And yet, the people like the west. There is a striking break between regime and the people. Sadly, they must take back their own country.

The Bigfella
01-08-2012, 01:11 AM
And yet, the people like the west. There is a striking break between regime and the people. Sadly, they must take back their own country.

..... and isn't a pity that "we" don't learn these lessons?