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S.V. Airlie
12-31-2011, 05:04 PM
I say no.

seanz
12-31-2011, 05:05 PM
I say yes.

PeterSibley
12-31-2011, 05:09 PM
No, it gives me a chance to keep track of my granddaughter's reading and spelling and to help where necessary, usually for 40 minutes or so every evening .

S.V. Airlie
12-31-2011, 05:11 PM
I say yes.Why?

Mrleft8
12-31-2011, 05:13 PM
Because

BrianY
12-31-2011, 05:17 PM
No. Although it's sometimes a drag to have to sit there an help my kids with their homework, I do see that it (usually) has a positive effect on their learning. I do wish that there was better coordination between teachers though. The school policy states that the kids are suposed to have a certian amount of minutes of homework per night and those numbers seem reasonable...unless three or four teachers each assign that amount of homework on the same night.

CWSmith
12-31-2011, 05:19 PM
Hell no! Look at the thread of what happens when two identical cars collide at the same speed. There are two pages of people who don't understand freshman physics. You learn by doing and in class you only hear about it. Homework converts an idea into understanding and then into ability.

seanz
12-31-2011, 05:21 PM
Why?

Teaches bad habits for later life. Your work (assigned tasks by supervisor) is never done and you should bring work home with you. Not how I'd like the world to be run.

seanz
12-31-2011, 05:22 PM
Hell no! Look at the thread of what happens when two identical cars collide at the same speed. There are two pages of people who don't understand freshman physics. You learn by doing and in class you only hear about it. Homework converts an idea into understanding and then into ability.

All of that misunderstanding was created under an education system that enshrines homework. So not only is it a drag, it doesn't work.
;)

Gerarddm
12-31-2011, 05:29 PM
Abolished? Absolutely not.

Mrleft8
12-31-2011, 05:32 PM
I was given tasks to complete while at home. Most of the time these were redundant tasks, that served little, or no purpose except to make the next class easier for the teacher to coast through.

CWSmith
12-31-2011, 05:32 PM
All of that misunderstanding was created under an education system that enshrines homework. So not only is it a drag, it doesn't work.
;)

In that case, I knew the correct answer the moment I read the question and that is the result of doing homework until I knew something as opposed to just hearing about it.

Seriously, any student who does not do homework is a tourist passing through the world of knowledge.

seanz
12-31-2011, 05:33 PM
Yup accomplishing a goal is a very bad habit.Learning something which may have been taught by the teacher and fortified by homework assigned is a bad thing.Following through is also a bad habit. Sitting on the street corner from 3PM to dinner is however a good habit.

You're just teaching children that assigned tasks are open ended. Their reward for doing the homework is more homework.
At the end of their life do people regret not spending more time at the office?

seanz
12-31-2011, 05:35 PM
In that case, I knew the correct answer the moment I read the question and that is the result of doing homework until I knew something as opposed to just hearing about it.

Seriously, any student who does not do homework is a tourist passing through the world of knowledge.

Independent research skills can be taught during school hours, that's what libraries are for.

Meli
12-31-2011, 05:36 PM
Dunno, I think when they are little, it's a bit much unless it's a creative project and volutary, that is good child and parent time.
I do wish that with todays technology, they would Email the work to parents (for year 7-9 anyway)
Little buggers are always saying, "I've done it, havent got any, No, " when asked.
It's a major stressor for working single parents.

Garret
12-31-2011, 05:38 PM
No - absolutely not. I disagree with how seanz has correlated homework with the working world. What homework does (besides teaching you how to learn on your own - a big deal on its own), is to teach one time management & skills in concentration & discipline.

The above assumes that the teacher knows how to assign homework, which is by no means a given.....

Waddie
12-31-2011, 05:43 PM
I say abolish homework.

I'll see to it that my grand kids keep doing it, and when it comes time to compete for jobs they won't have much competition.... :)

Interesting facts from my son's Doctoral thesis;

reading 24 age appropriate books each year will raise your child's reading ability by one additional level. (in addition to their normal progression).

summer vacation without any instruction results in a drop of about 2 months of previously learned material.

because of announcements, recess, lunch, getting in line, bathroom breaks, discipline, classroom management, etc., the average number of hours spent on actual instruction is about 5 hrs., less in many schools.

About 30% of students must listen to instruction that covers material that they have already mastered.

About 30% of students must listen to instruction that covers material that is over their heads because they didn't master what went on previously.

Actually, more important than homework per se, is that parents know how much their child is "actually" learning, and home work can be structured to facilitate that.(home work should be primarily practice and review of already presented instruction, not an attempt to learn new concepts). Your child should not be "struggling" with home work, and if he/she absolutely breezes through it he/she is not being challenged in school. Ideally, having the occasional question tells you it is just right.

regards,
Waddie

PeterSibley
12-31-2011, 05:45 PM
All of that misunderstanding was created under an education system that enshrines homework. So not only is it a drag, it doesn't work.
;)

It does work as it gives parents a chance to see how their kids are going, to note and shortcomings that the parents wouldn't see otherwise and then apply some interest.

WX
12-31-2011, 05:46 PM
I was hopeless at doing homework and left school at 15.

PeterSibley
12-31-2011, 05:50 PM
You're just teaching children that assigned tasks are open ended. Their reward for doing the homework is more homework.
At the end of their life do people regret not spending more time at the office?

Their reward for doing the homework is more homework. Nup, it's improved spelling and the self esteem that comes with being as good at a skill as your peers.

School is not the office .I loved at least half of my school time but I only lasted a year in an office before i baled out for life.

BrianY
12-31-2011, 05:54 PM
You're just teaching children that assigned tasks are open ended. Their reward for doing the homework is more homework.
At the end of their life do people regret not spending more time at the office?

That is not the case at all. The assignements are not "open ended". There is work that has to be completed in school and other work that has to be completed outside of school and turned in the next day. What is "open ended" about that?

The "reward for doing home work" is education, mastering math and language skills, learning to manage time and work effectively and efficiently, self-displine and organization. These are important skills for people to know - especially if they ever hope to be sucessful at any sort of professional work. There are not enough hours in the school day for kids to do the repetive kind of work that is needed to reinforce concepts and processes. Homework also helps to instillthe idea that learning is not something that one only does in the classroom and that education is a 24-7 process.

rbgarr
12-31-2011, 05:55 PM
The issue isn't 'homework' as generally thought of here in the US. It's the need to learn and practice the disciplines of studying to understand, question, retain and synthesize material that's important.

By the time students enter junior high school they should study every evening, whether or not they have been assigned homework. After completing their homework assignment, if there is any, they should be in the habit of reviewing the current day’s lesson, recasting their notes into their own words from key points taken during class time and study for the next day’s lesson in anticipation of what will be presented in class.

Such practice instills discipline, persistence, dedication, and confidence, attributes useful to all students, smart and challenged alike, and persuades that each is responsible for the bulk of their own learning and accomplishment.

I was introduced to a somewhat formalized method of this approach in elementary school and it has stood me in good stead for all of my life. Of course, each student adapts it to suit different areas of study. It was called 'SQ3R': http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SQ3R

seanz
12-31-2011, 06:27 PM
Homework should be abolished. If students can't be taught good study habits and time management skills by a trained professional (their teacher), will they ever be able to learn those skills on their own?

Breakaway
12-31-2011, 06:36 PM
Not doing homework would be like reading a forum post about scarfing, sharpening, fastening, whatever and never attempting the task yourself. You'll gain some knowledge, but you'll never gain any ability. You'll be dilettante.

Kevin

Garret
12-31-2011, 06:41 PM
Not doing homework would be like reading a forum post about scarfing, sharpening, fastening, whatever and never attempting the task yourself. You'll gain some knowledge, but you'll never gain any ability. You'll be dilettante.

Kevin

Great analogy!

BrianY
12-31-2011, 06:50 PM
Homework should be abolished. If students can't be taught good study habits and time management skills by a trained professional (their teacher), will they ever be able to learn those skills on their own?

If you truly believe this, then I assume that you're also of the opinion that other skills like hitting a baseball, throwing a football, playing an instrument, painting, singing, etc. can all be learned solely by spending time with coaches in practice or teachers in lessons with no need for practice outside of these formal lesson times.

You have obviously never been serious about learning to play an instrument.

Teachers guide, point the way, provide the basics and then it is up to the student to develop their skills through additional practice and repetition. The teacher assesses the students' progress and provides addiditonal assitance and guidance as needed.

It is a common mistake to assume that teachers teach and students learn. Good teachers guide and assist and students teach themselves. learning is not a passive activity. You cannot force someone to learn no matter how much information you throw at them and how often you do it. The student has to teach himself.

seanz
12-31-2011, 06:51 PM
Not doing homework would be like reading a forum post about scarfing, sharpening, fastening, whatever and never attempting the task yourself. You'll gain some knowledge, but you'll never gain any ability. You'll be dilettante.

Kevin

Eh? Really? The last course I did was bowl-turning. All work done in class. Owing to circumstances beyond my control, I haven't set up my new (to me) lathe yet. When it does get set up, I'm confident that I'll be able to mount a blank in a chuck etc. All of that was taught in the classroom. Skill and knowledge passed on in the classroom for me to use as I see fit at a later date.
And (for others) don't confuse study with homework......two different animals.

Some very nice person has just cooked me bacon and eggs (for lunch), carry on, I'll be otherwise occupied.
:)

seanz
12-31-2011, 06:54 PM
You have obviously never been serious about learning to play an instrument.

Ah, the incredibly rude and boorish "you obviously" argument. Practice isn't homework. There, that'll make some heads explode out in internet debate land......


Mmmmm......she cooked flat mushrooms.
:)

Cuyahoga Chuck
12-31-2011, 07:01 PM
Homework is more important than what you get in class. Being able to negotiate the subject matter on your own shows you have a grasp of it.

CWSmith
12-31-2011, 07:08 PM
Practice isn't homework. There, that'll make some heads explode out in internet debate land......

Boom!

Sean, what did they do to you?! Was it homework at gunpoint, a belt for every wrong answer? The class is listening. Homework is doing. It does not matter whether you do it at home, in the car, the library, or where. Either you live the education or you witness it. Practice is homework.

Tom Montgomery
12-31-2011, 07:08 PM
Why is an aged, unemployed, childless, bachelor interested in initiating a discussion about homework?

Breakaway
12-31-2011, 07:10 PM
Eh? Really? The last course I did was bowl-turning. All work done in class. Owing to circumstances beyond my control, I haven't set up my new (to me) lathe yet. When it does get set up, I'm confident that I'll be able to mount a blank in a chuck etc. All of that was taught in the classroom. Skill and knowledge passed on in the classroom for me to use as I see fit at a later date.

I have every confidence that you can. Here's the thing: you wont become the best bowl turner you can be until you start doing it yourself.

Kevin

Meli
12-31-2011, 07:15 PM
Interestingly doing homework doesn't necessarily correlate to success in uni or college.
Private schools tend to pile it on and do tend to get better entrance results.

BUT over here, it's shown that private shool students tend to drop out at a higher rate than public school students.
The reason usually offered is they have no research skills, all their homework being focused on passing exams, practicing old exam papers.
When left alone in the huge Uni environment, to produce original work. they get lost.

So if homework is directed at Information literacy learning, that's fine. But bogging kids down with grammar exercises and dull stuff ??
Some kids hack it, some don't.
Give them a research project to do at home by all means years 7-9.
Later years should be a mix of honing skills and research IMHO :)

BrianY
12-31-2011, 07:19 PM
Ah, the incredibly rude and boorish "you obviously" argument.

Well, have you? based on what you've said here, I assume not, but I freely admit that I could be wrong. I'm sorry that I hurt your feelings by being rude and boorish.

btw - "you obvioulsy" is not an argument. It is an assumption.



Practice isn't homework.


Well, the homework my kids get is a lot like practice..as in do tasks over and over again until they are perfected... use the same skills over and over again until they are able to do them well.

A lot of it reminds me of the kind of work I did practicing my trumpet for a couple of hours a day every day for many, many years, or shooting foul shots, practicing left handed layups and hook shoots over and over again on my own time when I played basketball in school...different subject matter, different mediums but the same fundamental idea.

seanz
12-31-2011, 07:21 PM
I have every confidence that you can. Here's the thing: you wont become the best bowl turner you can be until you start doing it yourself.

Kevin

Quite right and nothing to do with homework. Homework isn't practice or study, it's an insidious timewasting makework travesty of study and an anathema to intellectual growth.

seanz
12-31-2011, 07:25 PM
Well, have you? based on what you've said here, I assume not, but I freely admit that I could be wrong. I'm sorry that I hurt your feelings by being rude and boorish.

btw - "you obvioulsy" is not an argument. It is an assumption.


Sadly on the interwebs "you obviously" is what passes for argument. As an enthusiastic supporter of homework, shouldn't you be able to express yourself a little better?

fishrswim
12-31-2011, 07:31 PM
You guys need to get a life. I'm ashamed of myself for ever reading this ****.

seanz
12-31-2011, 07:34 PM
It does work as it gives parents a chance to see how their kids are going, to note and shortcomings that the parents wouldn't see otherwise and then apply some interest.

I must be in a 'mood'. Where you see success, I see failure. Why is it a parent's task to monitor a child's progress and do part of the teacher's job?
What can be done if a parent is unwilling or unable to coach and/or improve a childs school instruction, if the schooling is found lacking?
Why is it necessary to have an unofficial and unprofessional system operating in tandem with an official and professional system?

Abolish Homework! It's the demon-child of a corrupt system!


She did the eggs as a very light scramble (almost an omlette) with fresh basil. Mmmmmm, I'm in love but I won't be losing any weight today.
:)

seanz
12-31-2011, 07:35 PM
You guys need to get a life. I'm ashamed of myself for ever reading this ****.

You have 74 posts and one of those posts has been to a thread that you say was a waste of time reading but you still posted to it......leave now.
It's your only hope.

Nicholas Carey
12-31-2011, 07:42 PM
Most homework, at least in lower grades, is pretty much busywork...worksheets, etc.

It's another thin entirely to, say, require reading the chapter to be discussed the night before the discussionis to take place.

And there's something seriously wrong when I see kids 8 or 9 years of age towing so many books back and forth to school that they need a wheeled carry-on bag in which to carry them.

PeterSibley
12-31-2011, 07:43 PM
I must be in a 'mood'. Where you see success, I see failure. Why is it a parent's task to monitor a child's progress and do part of the teacher's job?
What can be done if a parent is unwilling or unable to coach and/or improve a childs school instruction, if the schooling is found lacking?
Why is it necessary to have an unofficial and unprofessional system operating in tandem with an official and professional system?

Abolish Homework! It's the demon-child of a corrupt system!


She did the eggs as a very light scramble (almost an omlette) with fresh basil. Mmmmmm, I'm in love but I won't be losing any weight today.
:)

Hmm ,answering questions that you don't actually mean:d Sometimes the child is slow, sometimes the teacher misses that or can't afford the time in big class. Sometimes the teacher is totally slack and prefers working in the office. :(

Parents (and grandparents) monitor schoolwork because they care and because it's ultimately their responsibility. They can blame the teacher and the school but it's too late if little Johnny can't read .

seanz
12-31-2011, 07:55 PM
Hmm ,answering questions that you don't actually mean:d Sometimes the child is slow, sometimes the teacher misses that or can't afford the time in big class. Sometimes the teacher is totally slack and prefers working in the office. :(

Parents (and grandparents) monitor schoolwork because they care and because it's ultimately their responsibility. They can blame the teacher and the school but it's too late if little Johnny can't read .

Peter, I've known "Johnnys" that couldn't read. They were at school with me. The parents/gaurdians can't be the backstop for a system run and staffed by professionals, that's just wrong.
It's good that you take an interest, it shows the kid that what they're doing is worthwhile, like everything you take an interest in.
Being the ambulance at the bottom of the cliff for the education system shouldn't be your responsibility, at the very least, it means that you're not getting the service that you pay for.
Sometimes kids don't have people that care about their education in their lives but their teacher is paid to and obliged to be responsible for the child's education. Putting the onus back onto a non-professional is wrong.

Y Bar Ranch
12-31-2011, 07:56 PM
Kids should sit at their desks until their homework is done

CWSmith
12-31-2011, 08:01 PM
Kids should sit at their desks until their homework is done

Actually, no. That turns a marathon lifestyle of education and knowledge building into a sprint. Plus, it takes time to assimilate new information.

seanz
12-31-2011, 08:02 PM
I say abolish it, as it does more harm than good.

Waddie
12-31-2011, 08:14 PM
seanz; their teacher is paid to and obliged to be responsible for the child's education. Putting the onus back onto a non-professional is wrong.

A doctor is a professional....is he/she solely responsible for your health? Or are you responsible for your health with the doctors assistance and advice?

Guess who's responsible for your education - you are - with the help of teachers and parents. If you don't get educated, who pays the biggest price - you do. The doctor gets paid whether you live or die, and that's how it should be. The teacher gets paid even if you decide to be as dumb as a box of hammers. And that's how it should be.

regards,
Waddie

CWSmith
12-31-2011, 08:15 PM
I gave my kids homework if the school didn't give them enough. They had to read to me.

The one thing my best students all have in common is that their parents took a real interest in their education. I bet your kids are interesting people.

BrianY
12-31-2011, 08:21 PM
Sadly on the interwebs "you obviously" is what passes for argument. As an enthusiastic supporter of homework, shouldn't you be able to express yourself a little better?

Ah, now the offended party resorts to an ad hominem attack rather than responding to the points raised. Well done. Now who's being rude and boorish?

I take it as a matter of pride that my homework and in-school studies taught me the true meaning of phrases such as "you obvioulsy". That I did not have to depend on the "interwebs" to educate me in the proper use of the English language is, I think, an argument in favor of homework and public school education. That you are unable to understand the proper meaning of the phrase speaks volumes about the quality of your education. Perhaps if you had spent more time doing homework and less time surfing the net, you might be able to comprehend standard English.

BrianY
12-31-2011, 08:24 PM
I say abolish it, as it does more harm than good.

Please list the harms it does.

PeterSibley
12-31-2011, 08:37 PM
Peter, I've known "Johnnys" that couldn't read. They were at school with me. The parents/gaurdians can't be the backstop for a system run and staffed by professionals, that's just wrong.
It's good that you take an interest, it shows the kid that what they're doing is worthwhile, like everything you take an interest in.
Being the ambulance at the bottom of the cliff for the education system shouldn't be your responsibility, at the very least, it means that you're not getting the service that you pay for.
Sometimes kids don't have people that care about their education in their lives but their teacher is paid to and obliged to be responsible for the child's education. Putting the onus back onto a non-professional is wrong.

So what are you suggesting:confused:, do nothing ? Watch a child that might need remedial or just a bit of extra reading or help with some part of the whole they are having trouble with and do nothing ??? Pretty strange mate . We can all acknowledge that schools can be good or bad depending on the teaching, the staffing or facilities. If all it takes is a parental hand in the process and time to help why not .

Blaming the school system later seems about as slack as can be imagined ...but hey, if that's what you want to do ...Good Luck .:D

seanz
12-31-2011, 08:38 PM
A doctor is a professional....is he/she solely responsible for your health? Or are you responsible for your health with the doctors assistance and advice?

Guess who's responsible for your education - you are - with the help of teachers and parents. If you don't get educated, who pays the biggest price - you do. The doctor gets paid whether you live or die, and that's how it should be. The teacher gets paid even if you decide to be as dumb as a box of hammers. And that's how it should be.

regards,
Waddie

Professionals are responsible (or should be) for their actions within their system. If you mash your finger with a hammer and are dumb enough (or uneducated enough) not to follow the basics of wound care, it'll get infected. When you see the doctor (after someone tells you to go:D) you shouldn't be responsible for what the doctor prescibes you.
If you are allowed out of the doctor's surgery without appropriate medication and wound attention, it's not your fault.

Homework isn't a good substitute for proper instruction.......and children aren't adults, they aren't responsible.

seanz
12-31-2011, 08:43 PM
So what are you suggesting:confused:, do nothing ? Watch a child that might need remedial or just a bit of extra reading or help with some part of the whole they are having trouble with and do nothing ??? Pretty strange mate . We can all acknowledge that schools can be good or bad depending on the teaching, the staffing or facilities. If all it takes is a parental hand in the process and time to help why not .

Blaming the school system later seems about as slack as can be imagined ...but hey, if that's what you want to do ...Good Luck .:D

You're making the assumption (and I addressed it in the post you quoted) that parents can lend a hand. In any case, they aren't required to. There is no (to my knowledge) official requirement to make sure your child does their homework.

Implying that the school system has no responibility for a child's education seems as divorced from reality as can be. Still, that does happen a lot.........

PeterSibley
12-31-2011, 08:44 PM
I guess we have basic difference in attitude to responsibility.

seanz
12-31-2011, 08:45 PM
Please list the harms it does.

Please read some of my previous posts.


I would also like to point out that taking the "nay" side in a homework debate means that I don't have to do any.
;)

PeterSibley
12-31-2011, 08:48 PM
You're making the assumption (and I addressed it in the post you quoted) that parents can lend a hand. In any case, they aren't required to. There is no (to my knowledge) official requirement to make sure your child does their homework.

It is here ...'completes homework' is on the school report

Implying that the school system has no responibility for a child's education seems as divorced from reality as can be. Still, that does happen a lot.........

The school system has responsibility ...of course but the person ultimately responsible for helping their child is the parent or carer, not some professional who may be brilliant at their job or quite mediocre .

seanz
12-31-2011, 08:50 PM
I guess we have basic difference in attitude to responsibility.

You've guessed correctly. Your attitude is narrow (not necessarily a bad thing) and based on individual children in your care. Mine is broader and questions why a huge system staffed and run by professionals and funded with billions of dollars requires your assistance.

A question, if children didn't get homework, would you still believe they were learning?

crawdaddyjim50
12-31-2011, 08:51 PM
I say that school should be mostly homework. And it should be year round. And schools should be sighted such that kids do not need to be driven to school by bus.

CWSmith
12-31-2011, 08:51 PM
Please read some of my previous posts.

Seriously, I'm trying to understand your point. I don't get it. I am left to guess why you write these things and I can't find a clear answer in your posts.

crawdaddyjim50
12-31-2011, 08:53 PM
You're making the assumption (and I addressed it in the post you quoted) that parents can lend a hand. In any case, they aren't required to. There is no (to my knowledge) official requirement to make sure your child does their homework.

Implying that the school system has no responibility for a child's education seems as divorced from reality as can be. Still, that does happen a lot.........

Actually the education of your child (it is your child, not the state's) is your responsibility. From my point of view it is the single most important decision you make as a parent after basic needs are met.

seanz
12-31-2011, 08:53 PM
It is here ...'completes homework' is on the school report

Is that on their report or yours, Peter?



The school system has responsibility ...of course but the person ultimately responsible for helping their child is the parent or carer, not some professional who may be brilliant at their job or quite mediocre .

Why send them to school at all then?

And don't get me started on "quite mediocre" professionals.....they shouldn't exist within a well regulated system.

crawdaddyjim50
12-31-2011, 08:59 PM
Teaches bad habits for later life. Your work (assigned tasks by supervisor) is never done and you should bring work home with you. Not how I'd like the world to be run.

Sorry, that is not logical or correct. Home work teaches not only the skill in actual use, but more importantly teaches responsibility. The student acquires confidence and self esteem when they complete said home work successfully. It gives them the ability to self teach and how to learn new skills on their own.

Not sure what the labor rules are in NZ, but I don't bring home work from my job.

seanz
12-31-2011, 09:01 PM
Actually the education of your child (it is your child, not the state's) is your responsibility. From my point of view it is the single most important decision you make as a parent after basic needs are met.

We're straying from homework to parental responsibility........fine......it's The Bilge...:)

So, where the State plays a part in your child's education, how should they be helf responsible if they fail in their obligations? Some sort of refund? Teachers made to do detention?

PeterSibley
12-31-2011, 09:03 PM
Is that on their report or yours, Peter?

Theirs ... they actually like homework and call us to come and help.These are just little kids,7 and 9 .We do it together and enjoy it .




Why send them to school at all then?

And don't get me started on "quite mediocre" professionals.....they shouldn't exist within a well regulated system.
Ahh ! Expectations of perfection ! The school they go to is very good but it used to be quite mediocre. A new headmistress has really changed things for the best .

seanz
12-31-2011, 09:11 PM
Sorry, that is not logical or correct. Home work teaches not only the skill in actual use, but more importantly teaches responsibility. The student acquires confidence and self esteem when they complete said home work successfully. It gives them the ability to self teach and how to learn new skills on their own.

Homework, as I remember it, was none of those things. It was a reiteration of the days lesson plan, there was hardly ever anything new in it. I learned 100X more from the library at school. Once you can self-teach, or learn unassisted, why keep constantly proving it? This brings us to the tricky part, what happens when a child "fails" homework. What does a teacher do to help the child "pass"?


Not sure what the labor rules are in NZ, but I don't bring home work from my job.

Lucky you, neither do I but I know people that can't leave their work behind and their homelife and, ironically, parenting suffers from it.

seanz
12-31-2011, 09:14 PM
Ahh ! Expectations of perfection ! The school they go to is very good but it used to be quite mediocre. A new headmistress has really changed things for the best .

Not at all.......I'd just like schools to be somewhat responsible for a childs learning. The "the system isn't perfect" is the biggest cop-out the education system has, highly over-used and ultimately toxic.
Sad really.

crawdaddyjim50
12-31-2011, 09:23 PM
We're straying from homework to parental responsibility........fine......it's The Bilge...:)

So, where the State plays a part in your child's education, how should they be helf responsible if they fail in their obligations? Some sort of refund? Teachers made to do detention?

With my second son, I took the responsibility and moved him to a private school which offered more hands on teachers. He responded well and has received his Masters degree in Electrical Engineering as of last year. Once the failure takes place, laying blame does no one any good. Making the changes necessary to garner success is most important.

The best solution to the problem would be to end the state monopoly on education allowing the free market to determine the success or failure of state schools.

crawdaddyjim50
12-31-2011, 09:29 PM
Lucky you, neither do I but I know people that can't leave their work behind and their homelife and, ironically, parenting suffers from it.

Can't is not really their issue. They don't value their children's education above their careers. I used to manage four restaurants that operated seven days per week with approximately 200 employees total. When my second son began having problems with school I left that vocation and took one that left me able to focus on my son. Sacrifice is what parents do for their children. It is a choice those parents are making and in my opinion it is the wrong one.

But home work at school teaches the student that learning never stops.

PeterSibley
12-31-2011, 09:34 PM
Not at all.......I'd just like schools to be somewhat responsible for a childs learning. The "the system isn't perfect" is the biggest cop-out the education system has, highly over-used and ultimately toxic.
Sad really.

Yes, indeed I'm sure the new perfect human system is just around the corner .

Breakaway
12-31-2011, 10:31 PM
it's an insidious timewasting makework travesty of study and an anathema to intellectual growth.

Are you talking about the homework you were given, or that assigned to your kids in the present? In any event, if thats your experience than you either attended a bad school, with shoddy teachers, or your children do now. If the latter, I suggest heading off to the next school board meeting and making a complaint. In fact, I'd call the teacher, the principal and the school superintendent and demand a meeting.

Kevin

seanz
12-31-2011, 10:57 PM
Yes, indeed I'm sure the new perfect human system is just around the corner .


And, with that attitude, all you'll get is the same-old same-old......


When will people realize that "modern" education isn't modern. It's a system mired in the 19th Century that, apparently, needs constant input from parents if it's to even get close to achieving its basic function. It is a system that sweeps its failings under the carpet and is incapable of self-reform.
If parents are the ones required to educate their children, what is this huge expensive system for?

seanz
12-31-2011, 11:00 PM
Are you talking about the homework you were given, or that assigned to your kids in the present? In any event, if thats your experience than you either attended a bad school, with shoddy teachers, or your children do now. If the latter, I suggest heading off to the next school board meeting and making a complaint. In fact, I'd call the teacher, the principal and the school superintendent and demand a meeting.

Kevin

I couldn't possibly spend this much time on the forum if I had children. What do you think I am? A monster?

;):D

CWSmith
01-01-2012, 12:15 AM
And, with that attitude, all you'll get is the same-old same-old......


When will people realize that "modern" education isn't modern. It's a system mired in the 19th Century that, apparently, needs constant input from parents if it's to even get close to achieving its basic function. It is a system that sweeps its failings under the carpet and is incapable of self-reform.
If parents are the ones required to educate their children, what is this huge expensive system for?

Man, what the hell did they do to you?

seanz
01-01-2012, 12:27 AM
Man, what the hell did they do to you?

Failed to stop me from asking "Why"?

;):D

Ian McColgin
01-01-2012, 11:13 AM
It's not all one or the other. There are some interesting studies out indicating that many forms of homework don't just fail to add anything to the educational experience, they actually retard education. But that's true of some classroom approaches as well.

There are some leading studies that help distinguish between the sorts of homework that are functional and those that are not, but one of the more important elements is that homework really must be integrated across the student's whole academic load and really must be time limited as well. For the single-teacher primary grades, that integration is good curriculum design, all too often absent. Once students are past just one teacher - usually by middle school - the entire faculty must coordinate homework and time demands. To take a simple example from how it was done at my school, a history term paper was also an English theme. One job for two different grades. (Anything written in sentences became an English exercise, and that included Chem Lab write-ups.)

To attend to individual student needs with intelligently designed homework means fewer students per pupil, especially in primary education where a class size goal should be twelve kids per teacher and the school should not permit more than fifteen. That means a small school with say 60 fourth graders and four teachers is right on the edge and one more kid means having five teachers, which brings the average class down to an optimal size. Studies in districts with high rates of poverty have shown that it's just that simple. You don't even need genius teachers. Most literate adults who care about kids can do a perfectly adequate job so long as they are not overloaded. And at that rate they don't have the burn-out that turns potentially good new teachers into cynically tyranical jerks. And in that environment of manageable class sizes, teachers will be observing correctly what homework forms work for various kids.

Canoeyawl
01-01-2012, 12:01 PM
I think that schools should concentrate on how to learn and not so much on what to learn.
Once the most basic education is taught (reading and writing is not "an education") the rest is up to the "student"
Homework is rarely the panacea claimed unless the student feels that this is information he needs to know. It takes a dedicated and gifted teacher to inspire someone to learn. Rarely will homework do it.

"The two men who installed the first radio in Paul Galvin’s car, Elmer
Wavering and William Lear, ended up taking very different paths in life.
Wavering stayed with Motorola. In the 1950’s he helped change the
automobile experience again when he developed the first automotive
alternator, replacing inefficient and unreliable generators. The invention
lead to such luxuries as power windows, power seats, and, eventually,
air-conditioning.
Lear also continued inventing. He holds more than 150 patents. Remember
eight-track tape players? Lear invented that. But what he’s really famous
for are his contributions to the field of aviation. He invented radio
direction finders for planes, aided in the invention of the autopilot,
designed the first fully automatic aircraft landing system, and in 1963
introduced his most famous invention of all, the Lear Jet, the world’s
first mass-produced, affordable business jet. (Not bad for a guy who
dropped out of school after the eighth grade.)"
link

(http://www.antiqueradiomuseum.org/thecarradio.htm)

(http://www.antiqueradiomuseum.org/thecarradio.htm)

McMike
01-01-2012, 12:22 PM
Yes but only if year-round-school is enacted.

Cuyahoga Chuck
01-01-2012, 12:28 PM
Independent research skills can be taught during school hours, that's what libraries are for.

There must be a divergence between our two versions of English. I don't know what kind of schools you went to but in mine library research was often a component of homework. And in the more prestigeous schools each student was expected to do research, library or otherwise.
Comes the time for college (what you folks call "university") the most prestigeous schools are looking for those who have done "independent studies", which includes library research, besides doing their required high school curriculem.
I remember students like you who were so smart they understood every lesson implicitly as presented and considerd it boring to have to revisit it a second time. But for me and those like me many subjects were over my head and the only way to pass the course was to do the homework and whatever else I needed to come up to snuff. If I hadn't gone to a parochial school where every nun gave homework every night I probably wouldn't have gotten thru' the difficult courses I had to take later on.

McMike
01-01-2012, 12:30 PM
And you know that will never happen.
Yes, I know. Like a lot of things that make sense . . . .

seanz
01-01-2012, 12:32 PM
Yup having high school students hanging out on street corners with their hands in their pockets, bored bananas and perhaps getting into trouble because of that boredom is certainly not harmful.Some here mention libraries.. Well who needs to go to a library if they don't have homework? A teacher teaches classes up to 20-30 students for a max of 55 minutes a day. Out of those students, how many don't get it. How many teachers don't know how many kids get the lesson and understand it? If there is no way to determine that, she may expect more students failing because she did not realize they didn't get the material until it was too late.Sure parents often do the homework and that should be encouraged obviously. Helping a student with corrections and explaining why the answes were incorrect, is a good learning process which only can be done at home with a parent.. Doing the homework is a fine line is an issue.

You just want homework assigned because you're scared of teenagers? What if they get a part-time job or play some sport?
And, I still go to libraries........

seanz
01-01-2012, 12:36 PM
It's not all one or the other. There are some interesting studies out indicating that many forms of homework don't just fail to add anything to the educational experience, they actually retard education. But that's true of some classroom approaches as well.

There are some leading studies that help distinguish between the sorts of homework that are functional and those that are not, but one of the more important elements is that homework really must be integrated across the student's whole academic load and really must be time limited as well. For the single-teacher primary grades, that integration is good curriculum design, all too often absent. Once students are past just one teacher - usually by middle school - the entire faculty must coordinate homework and time demands. To take a simple example from how it was done at my school, a history term paper was also an English theme. One job for two different grades. (Anything written in sentences became an English exercise, and that included Chem Lab write-ups.)

To attend to individual student needs with intelligently designed homework means fewer students per pupil, especially in primary education where a class size goal should be twelve kids per teacher and the school should not permit more than fifteen. That means a small school with say 60 fourth graders and four teachers is right on the edge and one more kid means having five teachers, which brings the average class down to an optimal size. Studies in districts with high rates of poverty have shown that it's just that simple. You don't even need genius teachers. Most literate adults who care about kids can do a perfectly adequate job so long as they are not overloaded. And at that rate they don't have the burn-out that turns potentially good new teachers into cynically tyranical jerks. And in that environment of manageable class sizes, teachers will be observing correctly what homework forms work for various kids.

Yes it is, this is a Jamie thread. There is no middle ground. :arg

Some very good points there, thanks.

seanz
01-01-2012, 12:44 PM
There must be a divergence between our two versions of English. I don't know what kind of schools you went to but in mine library research was often a component of homework. And in the more prestigeous schools each student was expected to do research, library or otherwise.
I said the skills can (plain English) be taught at school and in the library. I'm aware of how homework is structured.


Comes the time for college (what you folks call "university") the most prestigeous schools are looking for those who have done "independent studies", which includes library research, besides doing their required high school curriculem.
AFAIK, entrance is based on final scores from high school.


I remember students like you who were so smart they understood every lesson implicitly as presented and considerd it boring to have to revisit it a second time. But for me and those like me many subjects were over my head and the only way to pass the course was to do the homework and whatever else I needed to come up to snuff. If I hadn't gone to a parochial school where every nun gave homework every night I probably wouldn't have gotten thru' the difficult courses I had to take later on.
Yay for homework! Does sound like the courses weren't over your head at all though.......

Garret
01-01-2012, 12:44 PM
Yes, I know. Like a lot of things that make sense . . . .

I gotta disagree on this one (year 'round school). I believe good homework that forces a kid to stretch his/her mind is a good thing, but I also believe kids need time to be kids. How many of our very best memories (& indeed learning experiences) come from summers when we weren't in school? Obviously, I'm not talking about 2 months of video games - but the chance to get outside, go camping, sailing, whatever - to explore the real world.

Yes, I know all kids don;t get the chance to do so, but all are better off for it IMO.

seanz
01-01-2012, 12:47 PM
Don't colleges and universities assign work for outside of the classroom?

No. They assign essays and set exams. How the students achieve their results is up to them.

I wonder if all universities have libraries?

Garret
01-01-2012, 12:54 PM
Well Garret..Umm.. I was working in my field, not homework per se. I was not out playing. I was more than free to be a kid, but had other things on my mind. I lived in a neighborhood with three other kids. that's it. Yes, I liked them (still do as adults), but I had my mind set on other things that excited me too.

When you were 8? I can see it as a teenager, but I was referring to elementary school kids. Come high/prep school, different story.

seanz
01-01-2012, 12:59 PM
Seanz..Not at my university. May be yours. Isn't assigning essays homework or were these essays written in class?

Isn't completing essays part of the course requirement? How and where the student does them is up to the student. Very different to a 6 year-old being given an English assignment.

seanz
01-01-2012, 01:07 PM
Prove it? Yup again what do I hear from kids.." Daddy I'm bored, can go hang out on the street corners until 9 PM? I don't have enough videos of blood, gore, and sex to keep me occupied on the TV".

If you're going to make up quotes from imaginary children (and do so in an unamusing fashion) I will stop playing this game with you.
Apparently all of that time doing homework stunted your social skills.
:D

PhaseLockedLoop
01-01-2012, 01:09 PM
I wonder if all universities have libraries?

You're kidding?

Garret
01-01-2012, 01:12 PM
If you're going to make up quotes from imaginary children (and do so in an unamusing fashion) I will stop playing this game with you.
Apparently all of that time doing homework stunted your social skills.
:D

Having lived with a # of different early teen boys, what Jamie described is exactly what they'd like to do if allowed.

I thought he nailed it.

seanz
01-01-2012, 01:29 PM
You're kidding?

That time? Yes.


A course requirement might include homework(at any level) or is that beyond you?

Post #103.......Courses might include homework......in a thread about abolishing homework.


Super.

seanz
01-01-2012, 01:29 PM
Having lived with a # of different early teen boys, what Jamie described is exactly what they'd like to do if allowed.

I thought he nailed it.

They ask first? Good kids.
:)

seanz
01-01-2012, 01:41 PM
Just pointing out seanz that your reasoning to abolish homework from you perspective, makes no sense. An essay given even by a college professor is nothing more than a homework assignment.*I guess those students at college can just blow it off though.

Nothing more? If a University course is 60% Essays and 40% Exam for the final mark, I'd say that "blow it off" would be a poor choice.

I hope you realize that "abolish homework" is your choice of words; not "make it mandatory", "enshrine it with legislation" or "be paid by the hour". Secretly, I don't think you liked homework as much as you make out...

seanz
01-01-2012, 01:46 PM
Hey Seanz.. The bus passes my door at 1435 hours. How do you keep them occupied?Do you just let them loose to their own devices until it's dark and they can turn on the TV after dinner?*

Hey S.V. Airlie.......why am I responsible for your teenagers?

Jamie, you are imposing drudgery and intellectual slavery on little children because it suits your schedule and keeps them off the street.
You should be ashamed.



And homework should be abolished.
:D

* Not sure where the rest of that post came from, it just showed up when I pushed "quote".

seanz
01-01-2012, 02:20 PM
you are imposing drudgery and intellectual slavery on little children

This is a good thing, to you?

Why is it that you equate "not doing homework" with a breakdown in social order? Is there really nothing that young people can do that is constructive, creative and rewarding outside of the school system? Eventually (most) people leave school......


And dont say "yup" to me.

And sit up straight.

Garret
01-01-2012, 03:14 PM
They ask first? Good kids.
:)

Right.... I shoulda said "is exactly what they'd like to do if given the chance" :d

seanz
01-01-2012, 03:57 PM
And you sound like someone who doesn't care about any form of discipline. How in heck did you potty train your kids..By asking nicely not to poop in their diapers or did you wait until they were 12 and were just tired of dumping in their pants finally. Thank the lord for peer intervention there. Probbly wouldn't have happened if his peers teased him.And I'm not afraid of kids, Seanz appears to be. He is the type who offers kids 5 choices for breakfast because he wants to please them. He wants to be a buddy not a parent..

How dare you question my parenting skills? At least I'd give them breakfast, you appear to be the type that would wake a child with a beating and send them to school shoeless and sewn into their rags.
You Monster!