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switters
12-20-2011, 01:29 PM
I have read several fascinating threads about the downfalls of each and every republican who might have or is running for president. I get it. Despite picking a few nits just to keep the conversation interesting I agree with a good amount of it.

So....
Why should I vote for Obama? His foreign policy is everything I didn't like about the red team.

Ditto for individual rights.

Spending so far has contributed mostly to bankers, unions and military contractors, not my favorite charities either. BTW, when I say charities I am sarcastically saying organized crime syndicates approved of by the federal government.

Health care could have been a winner, but has not made health care more affordable or accessible to me. I get that it has worked out for others, and I am happy for them (or you). My costs have gone up, and the only way to meet the deductible this year is to pay the government 10% of the amount I take out of my retirement account.

So can anyone tell me why I should vote for Obama without using the "well the other guy is even worse" line. I mean, that may be good enough for some, but if that's all there is then I am going to keep looking for a different candidate to get behind.

Disparaging comments of grammar and spelling welcomed, sorry in advance that a C&P that expresses my views was unavailable. If any sources need to be attacked, that would be me.

Thanks, and only two more days till solstice.

Mrleft8
12-20-2011, 01:44 PM
Without saying "The other guy is worse"....
To help try to keep people like Mitch McConnel, John Boehner, Joe Walsh, Eric Cantor, etc, from completing what Dubya, and Cheney started.

S.V. Airlie
12-20-2011, 01:47 PM
Sorry Doug he has passed legislation renewing too much of what Cheney et al, created.

Chris Coose
12-20-2011, 01:52 PM
Thanks for writing out just what I was thinking Norm.
I'd vote for a republican, but haven't yet. Probably won't in this lifetime cause they appear to be progressively crazier and much more dangerous.

Mrleft8
12-20-2011, 02:02 PM
Sorry Doug he has passed legislation renewing too much of what Cheney et al, created. It's your birthday Jamie. I promised myself I'd take it easy on you today! :D

RonW
12-20-2011, 02:09 PM
Switters -
Disparaging comments of grammar and spelling welcomed,

That's wonderful, and means everyone can participate, even the illiterate righties.....

Remember a vote for obama is a vote for change..but is that the change you want ?

S.V. Airlie
12-20-2011, 02:12 PM
It's your birthday Jamie. I promised myself I'd take it easy on you today! :DThan you. Was I wrong about the legislation passed that I posted about Doug?:)

Mrleft8
12-20-2011, 02:13 PM
Than you. Was I wrong about the legislation passed that I posted about Doug?:) Like I said.... It's your birthday, and I promised myself I'd take it easy on you today! ;)

Shang
12-20-2011, 02:22 PM
Why should you vote for Obama?
Well, here are a few reasons:

Banking and Financial Reform

BROAD POLICY:
Established the National Commission on Fiscal Responsibility and Reform. ref
Established President’s Advisory Council on Financial Capability to assist in financial education for all Americans. ref, ref , ref
Restoring American Financial Stability Act of 2010. ref, ref
Dodd-Frank (DF) Wall Street Reform and Consumer Protection Act, the biggest financial reform law since the Great Depression. ref
Managed the Troubled Asset Relief Program (TARP) ref
Assigned a Special Inspector General for the Troubled Asset Relief Program Act of 2009. ref
Pension relief Act of 2010. ref
Fraud Enforcement and Recovery Act. ref, ref
Played a lead role in G-20 Summit re: financial crisis. ref
Reformed deferral rules to curb tax advantages for investing overseas. ref
Established new offshore investment policy that promotes in-sourcing. ref, ref
FUNDING:
Cut salaries for 65 bailout executives (Pay Czar). ref
Banks have repaid 75% of TARP funds, bringing the cost down to $89B as of June 2010. ref
Closed offshore tax safe havens, tax credit loopholes. ref , ref , ref
TARGETED ACTIONS:
Created the Financial Stability Oversight Council to monitor stability of the financial system and individual firms (DF). ref
New requirements for reporting financial data (DF). ref
Created self-funded Office of Financial Research (OFR) to collect information from financial firms (DF). ref
OFR employees must wait a year before working for certain financial firms. ref
Provided for orderly liquidation of financial companies (DF). ref
Limited trading activities of banks (Volcker Rule) beginning 2 yrs after passage (DF). ref
Swaps Pushout Rule prevented federal assistance to swaps (including derivatives) traders (DF). ref
Derivatives must be traded transparently through a clearing house (DF). ref
Defined the amount and nature of assets required to meet capital requirements (DF). ref
Originators of asset-backed securities must retain 5% ownership/risk (DF). ref
Bureau of Consumer Financial Protection (DF). ref
Stronger client fiduciary duty for broker-dealers (DF). ref
Higher standards for securities advertising and disclosures (DF). ref
Expanded “insider loans” (DF). ref
Higher standards for sytemically important ($50 billion assets+) institutions, including annual stress tests and restrictions on bank acquisitions (DF). ref
Executive compensation must be determined by an independent committee (DF). ref
Issued compensation guidelines for bank executive salary and bonuses. ref , ref
Financial agencies must establish Offices of Women and Minorities to promote more diverse hiring (DF). ref
Credit Card Accountability, Responsibility and Disclosure Act. ref, ref
Credit CARD Technical Corrections Act of 2009. ref
Established a credit card bill of rights. ref
Reformed credit card swipe fees. ref
Created new criminal penalties for mortgage fraud. ref
Congress pursued Goldman Sachs for securities violations. ref
Permanently extended Research and Experimentation Tax Credit for domestic investments. ref
RESULTS:
(Treasury) Sold 1.5 billion shares of Citigroup at a profit. ref
G-20 summit produced a $1.1 trillion deal to combat the global financial crisis. ref
Negotiated deal with Swiss banks to permit US government to gain access to records of tax evaders and criminals. ref
Financial reform has ‘strongest consumer financial protections in history.’ ref

To read the references for each item go to this site: http://obamaachievements.org/list#

Shang
12-20-2011, 02:26 PM
Then there's Obama's record regarding Civil Rights:

FUNDING:
Provided $12.2 billion in new funding for the Individuals with Disabilities Act though the American Recovery and investment Act. ref
TARGETED ACTIONS:
Lilly Ledbetter Fair Pay Act; Instituted equal pay for women. ref, ref, ref
Presidential Memorandum extending benefits to same-sex partners of federal employees. ref , ref , ref , ref
Presidential Memorandum protecting gay and lesbian partners’ visitation/healthcare decision-making rights (4/15/2010). ref
Matthew Shepard and James Byrd Jr. Hate Crimes Prevention Act to include gender, sexual orientation and disability. ref
Supported the repeal of Don’t Ask Don’t Tell (DADT). ref
Ryan White HIV/AIDS Treatment Extension Act. ref
Established White House Council on Women and Girls (Executive Order 13506 ). ref
Financial agencies must establish Offices of Women and Minorities to promote more diverse hiring.
Increased minority access to capital. ref
Pushing through settlement in the black farmers lawsuit against USDA. ref, ref
Signed the UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities. ref
Increased Federal Employment of Individuals with Disabilities (Exec Order)(celebrating 20th anniversary of the ADA). ref, ref

Shang
12-20-2011, 02:29 PM
Commerce, Trade and technology

BROAD POLICY:
Promoted internet freedom as part of U.S. foreign policy. ref, ref , ref
Webcaster Settlement Act of 2009. ref
Satellite Television Extension Act of 2010. ref
FUNDING:
Expanded loan programs for small businesses. ref
TARGETED ACTION:
Small Business Act. ref
Small Business Investment Act. ref
Proposed tougher meat industry antitrust rules. ref , ref
Denied federal contracts to tax delinquents. ref
Appointed the nation’s first Chief Technology Officer. ref
Established Federal IT Dashboard. ref
Modernized the USA.gov portal to connect people to the services they require. ref
Launched the National Export Initiative, with the goal of doubling US exports by 2015. ref , ref
Provided National Export Initiative/Progress report and named President’s Export Council. ref, ref
Launched piracy crackdown. ref

To read the references go to:
http://obamaachievements.org/list#

S.V. Airlie
12-20-2011, 02:31 PM
I do not think anything about adding another commission here and there really says a lot unless he does something about the results. Most of this stuff centers on executive orders.*

Shang
12-20-2011, 02:32 PM
Conservation

BROAD POLICY:
Morris K. Udall Scholarship and Excellence in National Environmental Policy Amendments Act of 2009. ref
Omnibus Public Land Management Act of 2009. ref
North American Wetlands Conservation Act. ref
Stewardship of the Ocean (established National Ocean Council ), our Coasts and the Great Lakes (Executive Order). ref
Federal Leadership in Environmental, Energy and Economic Performance (Executive Order). ref, ref
Established partnerships to share environmental technology with other countries. ref
FUNDING:
Increased funding for the Land and Water Conservation Fund. ref
Increased funding for national parks and forests. ref
$175 million of ARRA allocated for water conservation, $135 million of that in the West. ref
TARGETED AREAS:
Reengaged in the treaties/agreements to protect the Antarctic. ref, ref
Expanded access to places to hunt and fish. ref
Chesapeake Bay Protection and Restoration (Executive Order). ref, ref
Led effort to phase out whaling. ref
Pursued a wildfire management plan. ref
Encouraged more controlled burns to reduce wildfires. ref
Ordered removal of more brush, small trees and vegetation that fuel wildfires. ref

Shang
12-20-2011, 02:37 PM
Economy

BROAD POLICY:
The American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009 (ARRA): a $789 billion economic stimulus plan. ref
US auto industry rescue plan. ref, ref
Start-Up activity now higher than it was during the dotcom boom. ref
Created task force to fight deficit. ref
Worker, Homeownership, and Business Assistance Act of 2009. ref
Temporary extension of programs under the Small Business Act and the Small Business Investment Act of 1958. ref
FUNDING:
Increased minority access to capital. ref
$26 billion aid to states package (Aug 2010). ref
TARGETED ACTIONS:
Raised the small business investment limit to $250,000 through the end of 2009. ref
Created an Advanced Manufacturing Fund to invest in peer-reviewed manufacturing processes. ref
Improper Payments Elimination and Recovery Act – establishes a Federal “Do Not Pay” list. ref
Extended and indexed the 2007 Alternative Minimum Tax patch. ref
Adopted Economic Substance tax doctrine. ref
Extended unemployment insurance benefits and temporarily suspend taxes on these benefits. ref ref
Economy grew 5.9% in 4th quarter. ref
U.S. Economy: Manufacturing grew by most since 2004. ref
U.S. GDP up 3.2% in first quarter. ref
Consumer spending showed biggest rise in 3 years. ref
Orders for most durable goods rose. ref
Wholesale inventories and sales rose in March. ref
$26 billion state aid bill triggered a surge of private municipal investment. ref
EXHIBITS – THE STIMULUS ONE YEAR LATER:
Success of the stimulus–how do you illustrate ‘could have been worse’? ref
Distribution of ARRA funds by year. ref
Need for financial education: Investors who act on their own do worse than T-bills; market timers earn negative returns. ref
Consumer debt patterns (revolving and non-revolving) through end of 2009. ref
Growth of the national debt from 2000-2009. ref
Bar chart showing increases in national debt by President (since Carter). ref
Pie chart: 2009 annual deficit contrasting large Bush tax cuts and relatively small ARRA. ref
THE LEGACY: AUGUST 2010
The Economy Has Been Growing – seasonally adjusted change in GDP by quarter 2007-2010. ref
The Private Sector Has Begun to Add Jobs – Monthly change in nonfarm employment 2008-2010. ref
GDP would have been lower without the Recovery Act (2007-2013 projection) (scroll down to Part III to see chart). ref
Unemployment would have been higher without ARRA (2008-2010). ref
The gap between actual and full-employment GDP would have been much larger without TARP and ARRA (2008-2010). ref
MISCELLANEOUS EXHIBITS:
Public Sector Lost 316,000 jobs October 09-July 10 (state aid negotiated out of ARRA by GOP). ref

RonW
12-20-2011, 02:37 PM
Shang you forgot the $500.million dollars he generously gave to solyndra. The solar cell company..

Shang
12-20-2011, 02:40 PM
Education: College

BROAD POLICY:
Enacted largest reform of student aid in 40 years. ref, ref
Health Care and Education Affordability Reconciliation Act of 2010. ref
Established President’s Advisory Council on Financial Capability to assist in financial education for all Americans. ref, ref, ref
FUNDING:
Increased funding for land-grant college. ref
Provided means for students struggling to make college loan payments to refinance. ref
TARGETED ACTIONS:
Expanded Pell grants for low-income students. ref
Expanded Pell grant pool by eliminating private lender subsidies for student loans. ref

Education: Health of Children

BROAD POLICY:
Created the Race to the Top Fund ($4.35 billion) to reward States that create comprehensive education reform plans. ref
Children’s Health Insurance Program Reauthorization Act of 2009 . ref
FUNDING:
Provided funding for high-speed, broadband Internet access to K-12 schools. ref
Established State Equalization Fund; new funds for school construction (ARRA). ref
Provided $77 Billion for reforms to to strengthen Elementary and Secondary education. ref
Fully funded the Community Development Block Grant (CDBG). ref
Provided $12.2 billion in new funding for the Individuals with Disabilities Act through the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act. ref
$26 billion state aid package saved 160,000 teacher jobs (Aug 2010) ref
Provided over $2.3 billion in additional funding to Head Start and Early Head Start programs in 2009. ref
Provided $5 billion dollars for Early Learning Programs under the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act. ref
Roughly doubled the amount available in Federal Child Care Block Grants. ref
Established “Promise Neighborhood” Grants (modeled after the Harlem Children’s Zone). ref , ref
Eliminated abstinence-only funding in budget. ref, ref
TARGETED ACTIONS:
Helped rebuild schools in New Orleans. ref
Established school programs to highlight space and science achievements. ref
Recruited math and science degree graduates to the teaching profession. ref
Expanded the Nurse-Family Partnership to all low-income, first-time mothers . ref
Provided affordable, high-quality child care. ref
Unveiled initiatives to help men be better fathers. ref

Shang
12-20-2011, 02:42 PM
Employment: Jobs

BROAD POLICY:
Jobs for Main Street Act (2010). ref
American Jobs and Closing Tax Loopholes Act of 2010. ref
National Export Initiative ref
FUNDING:
(DOL) Dedicated $100 million in Energy Training Partnership green jobs training grants. ref
(DOL) Dedicated $150 million for Pathways Out of Poverty green jobs training grants. ref
$33 billion-dollar jobs package (March 2010). ref , ref
$26 billion aid to states package (Aug 2010). ref
$5,000 tax credit for every new worker. ref
New Health IT Workforce Grants (ARRA). ref
TARGETED ACTIONS:
Job training programs in clean technologies for displaced workers. ref
Green Vet Initiative to promote environmental jobs for veterans. ref
Financial agencies must establish Offices of Women and Minorities to promote more diverse hiring (DF).
Recruited math and science degree graduates to the teaching profession. ref
Initiated a new policy to promote federal hiring of military spouses. ref, ref
Required new hires to sign a form affirming their hiring was not due to political affiliations or contributions. ref, ref
RESULTS:
CBO found 3.7 Million jobs created by stimulus (May 2010). ref
Job loss exploded under Bush, improves under Obama. ref
682,370 jobs created under the Recovery Act Between January 1 — March 31,2010. ref, ref, ref
New jobless claims tumble. ref
March payrolls surge by 162,000 US says . ref
March jobs data showed biggest growth in three years .ref
U.S. economy added 90000 jobs in April . ref
Jobless rates dropped in 34 states and DC (AP). ref

S.V. Airlie
12-20-2011, 02:44 PM
I'm glad he gave money to school programs. I mean the Sec of education has mandated that states have to abide to the rules and regs. governing schools without willing to pay for them Glad Obama realizes that mandating requirements is one thing, paying for them is something else and have to be paid for.Or is he really paying for these mandates h has created.Kind of hazy on that.

Mrleft8
12-20-2011, 02:49 PM
Shang you forgot the $500.million dollars he generously gave to solyndra. The solar cell company..Is this the same Solyndra that applied for a Govt. loan in 2006, and was in the pipeline to receive the loan in early 2009, before Obama even took office?

Paul Pless
12-20-2011, 02:49 PM
The only reason to vote for Obama would ne to cast a protest vote against the Republican party.

Mrleft8
12-20-2011, 02:52 PM
The only reason to vote for Obama would ne to cast a protest vote against the Republican party.Or just to irritate knee jerk republicans like you, Slim! C'mon! We gotta have some fun now that Dubya's gone back under his rock! :D

Cuyahoga Chuck
12-20-2011, 03:24 PM
I have read several fascinating threads about the downfalls of each and every republican who might have or is running for president. I get it. Despite picking a few nits just to keep the conversation interesting I agree with a good amount of it.

So....
Why should I vote for Obama? His foreign policy is everything I didn't like about the red team.

Ditto for individual rights.

Spending so far has contributed mostly to bankers, unions and military contractors, not my favorite charities either. BTW, when I say charities I am sarcastically saying organized crime syndicates approved of by the federal government.

Health care could have been a winner, but has not made health care more affordable or accessible to me. I get that it has worked out for others, and I am happy for them (or you). My costs have gone up, and the only way to meet the deductible this year is to pay the government 10% of the amount I take out of my retirement account.

So can anyone tell me why I should vote for Obama without using the "well the other guy is even worse" line. I mean, that may be good enough for some, but if that's all there is then I am going to keep looking for a different candidate to get behind.

Disparaging comments of grammar and spelling welcomed, sorry in advance that a C&P that expresses my views was unavailable. If any sources need to be attacked, that would be me.

Thanks, and only two more days till solstice.

If you are an Amrican you have a civic duty to do your part to make the wheels of government turn.
Regardless of your likes or dislikes of the choices at hand you have duty to go to the polls and make a choice.
It helps if you have some facts to guide you but absent that you should vote anyway.
I feel it is more important on the federal level because there is more at stake. The world ain't going to come to an end if your city or town elects a mayor that is a commie cross-dresser. For a president we need someone who can carry out the duties of the office and be our fitting representative to the rest of the world.

John Smith
12-20-2011, 03:25 PM
switters, you shouldn't vote for Obama, if you don't agree with his policies, agenda, or performance. You should vote for the candidate who ends up on the ballot which, ON BALANCE, you feel is a better choice.

I don't think I can agree with people who say that we should change Presidents, merely for the sake of change. The positions and ideologies of the two candidates do matter. I doubt there's a single person in this country (outside of a few fanatical Ron Paul suporters) who completely agrees with whatever his preferred candidate says, in ALL respects.

It's a long way to the election, but if the alternate choice is either Romney or Gingrich, I'll be voting for Obama.

NOT because I agree with every single thing he's done.... because I don't. NOT because I awlays vote Democratic.... in fact, I don't.

I'll vote for Obama because I agree with much of his agenda (not all of it, but most of it). I'll vote for him because I believe he's done a good job in circumstances for which ANY President would have an extraordinarily tough time: getting inaugurated simultaneous with that absolute bottom of a horrendous recession.... with massive national debt and huge deficits.... and with an opposition which has openly stated that their #1 priority is to see that he doesn't get re-elected.... i.e., the commitment to damage his presidency, even if it damages the country.

Facing those kinds of challenges is more than a President ought to have to bear. I think he's done fairly well at it.

He certainly HAS made mistakes.... chief among them, his two year effort to demonstrate his willingness to make big compromises, with the hope that he could work with the Republicans.

So, if you don't agree with that, and you think Romney or Gingrich can do a better job, then by all means, vote for one of them!

Seems to me Obama's foreign policy, and most of his other policies, are 180 degrees from most Republican Policies. I, too, for the record have a problem with him extending some of the Bush laws I don't like, but voting in a Republican won't change those policies either.

I don't know what the Republican position was on Libya. It seemed to change for each of the candidates numerous times. Most of their warnings of the mistaken way he was handling turned out to be off base.

Looking at the Republican field and how they get in so much trouble by what comes out of their own mouths, I have to appreciate a president who thinks before he speaks. He seems to be the only one running who has that attribute.

John Smith
12-20-2011, 03:28 PM
I do not think anything about adding another commission here and there really says a lot unless he does something about the results. Most of this stuff centers on executive orders.*

Imagine what he could do if the senate didn't filibust everything?

wardd
12-20-2011, 03:31 PM
I'm glad he gave money to school programs. I mean the Sec of education has mandated that states have to abide to the rules and regs. governing schools without willing to pay for them Glad Obama realizes that mandating requirements is one thing, paying for them is something else and have to be paid for.Or is he really paying for these mandates h has created.Kind of hazy on that.

didn't bush mandate standards and not fund them?

Mrleft8
12-20-2011, 03:31 PM
I'm not sure that making a choice, merely for the sake of making a choice is wise. Is an uninformed choice, or a choice based on false information better than abstaining from making a choice? (I know, I know, the old RUSH song lyric pops to mind..... "If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice"...)

Cuyahoga Chuck
12-20-2011, 03:31 PM
That was an amazing display, Shang and well worth the read. But you might get a more intelligent response if you had presented all those salient facts to a big boulder out in the hills.

S.V. Airlie
12-20-2011, 03:35 PM
Imagine what he could do if the senate didn't filibust everything?The act of Fillibusting has been a part of the American scene for many many years.Both sides have used this tactic and it is nothing new. So bama can't deal with a few reps, I wonder why he can't even really try. I guess it makes him look good if he has opposition. Also, he has a party to explain his personal failings.

Cuyahoga Chuck
12-20-2011, 03:38 PM
I'm not sure that making a choice, merely for the sake of making a choice is wise. Is an uninformed choice, or a choice based on false information better than abstaining from making a choice? (I know, I know, the old RUSH song lyric pops to mind..... "If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice"...)

If you want to enjoy the rights you should be willing to at least go thru' the motions.
I realize that voting on governance is not usually as easy as picking the honey with the biggest boobs as homecoming queen but you should be willing to make the effort anyway. When you are old and gray the high school honey will be a honey no more but the government will still be there if you are lucky.

James McMullen
12-20-2011, 03:42 PM
I'm voting for Obama just to piss off Jamie and RonW. Oh, and jbelow too.

wardd
12-20-2011, 03:45 PM
The act of Fillibusting has been a part of the American scene for many many years.Both sides have used this tactic and it is nothing new. So bama can't deal with a few reps, I wonder why he can't even really try. I guess it makes him look good if he has opposition. Also, he has a party to explain his personal failings.

only you could believe what you posted, it takes a certain intensity of denial

S.V. Airlie
12-20-2011, 03:47 PM
didn't bush mandate standards and not fund them? Yup, he probably did and those mandates ar or seem to be still in effect.*

switters
12-20-2011, 03:47 PM
The only reason to vote for Obama would ne to cast a protest vote against the Republican party.

That is why I have become interested in Jill Stein , who is my front runner right now. Unfortunately I know very little about her. Hopefully she gets some name recognition and I can start reading several character assassination C&Ps about her right here in the bilge.

Shang, excellent research. One problem, I consider several of them half measures or outright failures. That is also to say that I am happy with almost half so it is hard to say whether or not the republicans could have done better. I will go out on a limb here and leave the devils advocate persona in the closet for just a moment.

On the environmental issue, I think the democrats are still closely aligned with my views, although I consider myself a conservationist more than a tree hugger. And they have let me down more often than not in the past two years with half measures. But they are in the same hemisphere as I am, and the republicans are not. I get where some people think the environment is taking up or denying resources that should be used for people. But I am thinking much more long term and am more optimistic. In my opinion, Rome isn't burning yet, we still need to think about where the water will come from tomorrow. That is just an example, but I happen to think about water often.

I am looking at "BROAD POLICY" re-established United States standing in the world? Not in the bilge he hasn't:D Where did that list come from, I see several omissions, like under the law and justice section; RE:patriot act.

And Norman is right about who people should vote for, but I do not accept that there are only three choices right now.

wardd
12-20-2011, 04:05 PM
Yup, he probably did and those mandates ar or seem to be still in effect.*

so you think obama should disregard the law?

S.V. Airlie
12-20-2011, 04:20 PM
Which law are you mumbling about Wardd?

wardd
12-20-2011, 04:23 PM
Which law are you mumbling about Wardd?

no child left behind

S.V. Airlie
12-20-2011, 04:24 PM
And how is that relevant? Oh never mind, it isn't.I'll be posting again, make sure you find it so you can attack me and avoid ever iter post on the thread I pick Wardd. Very obvious even for a talented troll..

switters
12-20-2011, 04:31 PM
Note:
All of the above-listed accomplishments by the Obama administration were conducted while the Republicans squatted on their thumbs and refused to participate.

The Republican's accomplishments during the period? ZERO !

Not all, though I like your research. For instance the visitors logs were made available via federal judge, http://www.judicialwatch.org/files/documents/2011/jw-v-usss-opinion-08172011.pdf. Being ordered to do something by a federal judge and complying is not exactly an accomplishment in my book. I would have let it slide but transparency was something I had "hope"d for.

I also note several omissions( patriot act), a few well executed spins (new jobless claims tumble) and at least one policy(TARP)
that was in place from the previous administration. I don't think the president has screwed up, I just dont think he has excelled. And the republicans? They lost me when they were supposed to be coming up with a jobs plan after rejecting the one from the white house and decided to hold debate on same sex marriage.

Mrleft8
12-20-2011, 04:41 PM
I can see same sex marriage as being a job..... Kinda....

switters
12-20-2011, 05:11 PM
I fully respect your right to cast a vote for a very minor party candidate, like Jill Stein.... but I can't respect your decision. Votes for candidates like that might be considered 'protest votes'.... except protests, by definition, require broad acknowledgement. Without that, the protest is meaningless. If Jill Stein garners, say, 200,000 votes in the next Presdiential election, it's not even an effective protest.

Personally, I'd rather make the choice between candidates that actually have a chance of being elected.... because no matter what, and for better or for worse, ONE of them will be the next President.

Wow! I will vote my conscious, but I'm not looking for respect either. But good luck with that.

leikec
12-20-2011, 06:03 PM
Wow! I will vote my conscious, but I'm not looking for respect either. But good luck with that.


I understand Norman's point, but I disagree with him. I can't stand Ron Paul, but he has managed to work his way into consideration in the GOP primary race via the "minor" candidate route. Ron Paul has an outside chance of winning the Iowa primary.

Your vote for Jill Stein will not lead to her being elected in 2012, but it could bring her publicity for a future race, and because of that your vote could well become more than a token "protest" vote.

Jeff C