Iraq

[ccmanuals]

The flag was finally lowered in Iraq yesterday. Would we still be there if John McCain had been elected? I'm thinking yes.

[Norman Bernstein]

Well, let's not get too excited here. We are leaving behind the largest 'embassy' America has ever built... and 16,000 people, some of whom are embassy staff, some of whom are contractors, trainers, etc.... so our 'withdrawal' from Iraq isn't quite the complete thing that it's being painted as being.

However, I do think there's a logic to it. On an NPR report I heard last night, it seems that Iran's influence in Iraq is a lot higher than I ever thought; frequent commercial air flights between the two countries, and a great deal of trade. I'm sure that the State Dept thinks it appropriate to maintain a presence, since Iran is probably likely to be an increasing problem in the region. Whether this is appropriate or not, is unclear... but if trouble occurs, it's probably not a bad idea to have a presence... better than having none. I was certainly against the Iraq war, but I'm not against the notion that the US has interests in the region.

[Uncle Duke]

Well, the answer is "of course we'd still have troops there". From here (http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/mccain-says-us-risks-losing-all-its-gains-in-iraq-without-leaving-residual-forces-at-wars-end/2011/12/15/gIQAhVLjvO_story.html):


WASHINGTON — Sen. John McCain says the U.S. could lose its gains in Iraq because no troops are staying behind. Officials formally ended the war in Iraq Thursday, and all U.S. troops should depart by the end of the year. McCain said on NBC’s “Today” show that the U.S. is at risk of losing everything it has gained without leaving a residual force behind to keep peace.
McCain accuses President Barack Obama of ignoring the advice of military leaders in order to keep a campaign promise to withdraw all U.S. troops. He says the lack of U.S .presence will embolden Iran and the Taliban in Afghanistan.

[LeeG]

"losing it's gains",,,wtf?

http://www.juancole.com/2011/12/post-american-iraq-by-the-numbers.html

Post-American Iraq by the Numbers

Posted on 12/14/2011 by Juan
Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki visited Washington this week, in something of a commemoration of the withdrawal of all US troops from his country. As the American War on Iraq draws to a close, the Neoconservatives have been trying one last time to depict one of the modern world’s great catastrophes, the Bush Administration invasion and occupation of Iraq, as a shining success story.

They even allege that the Arab uprisings of 2011 were inspired by Iraq (though they seem at the same time to go back and forth about whether the uprisings are even a good thing). In fact, virtually no one in the Arab world wants their country to look like Iraq.

Because the US media focuses on personalities instead of on social realities, they find it easy to go on interviewing Dick Cheney (who should be in jail), rather than reporting on what exactly Iraq looks like. If we examine some basic social statistics, the reasons for which American Iraq is not considered a model by other Arabs becomes blindingly obvious. For one thing, Iraq still suffers from a steady drumbeat of violence, with regular bombings and other attacks. Indeed, the monthly death toll in political and guerrilla violence for Iraqis is broadly similar to that in Afghanistan, an active war zone!

Moreover, the American public still for the most part has no idea what the United States did to that country, and until we Americans take responsibility for the harm we do others with our perpetual wars, we can never recover from our war sickness, which drives us to resort to violence in international affairs in a way no other democracy routinely does.

Population of Iraq: 30 million.

Number of Iraqis killed in attacks in November 2011: 187

Average monthly civilian deaths in Afghanistan War, first half of 2011: 243

Percentage of Iraqis who lived in slum conditions in 2000: 17

Percentage of Iraqis who live in slum conditions in 2011: 50

Number of the 30 million Iraqis living below the poverty line: 7 million.

Number of Iraqis who died of violence 2003-2011: 150,000 to 400,000.

Orphans in Iraq: 4.5 million.

Orphans living in the streets: 600,000.

Number of women, mainly widows, who are primary breadwinners in family: 2 million.

Iraqi refugees displaced by the American war to Syria: 1 million

Internally displaced [pdf] persons in Iraq: 1.3 million

Proportion of displaced persons who have returned home since 2008: 1/8

Rank of Iraq on Corruption Index among 182 countries: 175

[Bruce Hooke]

Regarding those who say that under a different administration we would still have combat troops in Iraq, didn't Iraq make it very clear that the only way we were going to keep combat troops there is by force used against our supposed ally, the current government of Iraq? As I recall, the elected government there told us in no uncertain terms to get our troops out. To think the a different administration could somehow have convinced the Iraqis to take a different position on this issue strikes me as naive.

[S.V. Airlie]

Norman I hope Wardd reads your post. Are are saying the same as I am. There will be Americans left in Iraq. You gave a number. I told Wardd, that Iraq is here to stay until ALL Americans are gone with te exception of maybe Embassy personnel.I take an embassy as a given for any country that has relations with the US.

[RonW]

Next question ? What is Barry's plans with the national guard ?

[Chris Coose]

Never considered this a war. It was an ill motivated and strategized invasion that we got purpously stuck in. 1 trillion dollars later, in hindsight, nothing of it could be considered successful.

[John of Phoenix]

McCain said on NBC’s “Today” show that the U.S. is at risk of losing everything it has gained without leaving a residual force behind to keep peace.
"The U.S. is at risk of losing everything it has gained"?? I'm with Lee and Dr. Cole on this but maybe some of our local reds would expound on what the hell we've gained in Iraq?

It's damned sure not "prespective".

[Y Bar Ranch]

"The U.S. is at risk of losing everything it has gained"?? I'm with Lee and Dr. Cole on this but maybe some of our local reds would expound on what the hell we've gained in Iraq?
Last checked, Saddam Hussein was still dead.

[skuthorp]

Last checked, Saddam Hussein was still dead.

There are plenty of his ilk awaiting in the wings. Getting rid of a dictator is one thing, getting rid of the dictatorship is another. In such chaos a demagog promising order can be an attractive proposition.

[PhaseLockedLoop]

In such chaos a demagog promising order can be an attractive proposition.

This demagog--you mean GWB?

[PeterSibley]

Those are pretty horrible statistics .How to destroy a nation and why ????


"losing it's gains",,,wtf?

http://www.juancole.com/2011/12/post-american-iraq-by-the-numbers.html

Post-American Iraq by the Numbers

Posted on 12/14/2011 by Juan
Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki visited Washington this week, in something of a commemoration of the withdrawal of all US troops from his country. As the American War on Iraq draws to a close, the Neoconservatives have been trying one last time to depict one of the modern world’s great catastrophes, the Bush Administration invasion and occupation of Iraq, as a shining success story.

They even allege that the Arab uprisings of 2011 were inspired by Iraq (though they seem at the same time to go back and forth about whether the uprisings are even a good thing). In fact, virtually no one in the Arab world wants their country to look like Iraq.

Because the US media focuses on personalities instead of on social realities, they find it easy to go on interviewing Dick Cheney (who should be in jail), rather than reporting on what exactly Iraq looks like. If we examine some basic social statistics, the reasons for which American Iraq is not considered a model by other Arabs becomes blindingly obvious. For one thing, Iraq still suffers from a steady drumbeat of violence, with regular bombings and other attacks. Indeed, the monthly death toll in political and guerrilla violence for Iraqis is broadly similar to that in Afghanistan, an active war zone!

Moreover, the American public still for the most part has no idea what the United States did to that country, and until we Americans take responsibility for the harm we do others with our perpetual wars, we can never recover from our war sickness, which drives us to resort to violence in international affairs in a way no other democracy routinely does.

Population of Iraq: 30 million.

Number of Iraqis killed in attacks in November 2011: 187

Average monthly civilian deaths in Afghanistan War, first half of 2011: 243

Percentage of Iraqis who lived in slum conditions in 2000: 17

Percentage of Iraqis who live in slum conditions in 2011: 50

Number of the 30 million Iraqis living below the poverty line: 7 million.

Number of Iraqis who died of violence 2003-2011: 150,000 to 400,000.

Orphans in Iraq: 4.5 million.

Orphans living in the streets: 600,000.

Number of women, mainly widows, who are primary breadwinners in family: 2 million.

Iraqi refugees displaced by the American war to Syria: 1 million

Internally displaced [pdf] persons in Iraq: 1.3 million

Proportion of displaced persons who have returned home since 2008: 1/8

Rank of Iraq on Corruption Index among 182 countries: 175

[Phillip Allen]

The flag was finally lowered in Iraq yesterday. Would we still be there if John McCain had been elected? I'm thinking yes.

gonna start another Tebow thread?

[Phillip Allen]

Regarding those who say that under a different administration we would still have combat troops in Iraq, didn't Iraq make it very clear that the only way we were going to keep combat troops there is by force used against our supposed ally, the current government of Iraq? As I recall, the elected government there told us in no uncertain terms to get our troops out. To think the a different administration could somehow have convinced the Iraqis to take a different position on this issue strikes me as naive.
not naive so much as a lie with an agenda

[bobbys]

The flag was finally lowered in Iraq yesterday. Would we still be there if John McCain had been elected? I'm thinking yes..

Being as we are on hypothetical Questions do you think we would have a fast and furious if John McCain had been elected?.

Im thinking No

[Phillip Allen]

.

Being as we are on hypothetical Questions do you think we would have a fast and furious if John McCain had been elected?.

Im thinking No

if fact that dead agent would still be alive... chalk one up for Obama!

[SMARTINSEN]

Sadaam and the Baathists were Sunnis. The new government is Shiite, and as one would expect if one were to think it through, cozy with Iran. It appears that GWB did not do a very good job of thinking things through. So even though Sadaam is dead, the destabilization of Iraq along with a shifting of the geopolitical/religious alliances is by far a worse result.

[John Smith]

Well, let's not get too excited here. We are leaving behind the largest 'embassy' America has ever built... and 16,000 people, some of whom are embassy staff, some of whom are contractors, trainers, etc.... so our 'withdrawal' from Iraq isn't quite the complete thing that it's being painted as being.

However, I do think there's a logic to it. On an NPR report I heard last night, it seems that Iran's influence in Iraq is a lot higher than I ever thought; frequent commercial air flights between the two countries, and a great deal of trade. I'm sure that the State Dept thinks it appropriate to maintain a presence, since Iran is probably likely to be an increasing problem in the region. Whether this is appropriate or not, is unclear... but if trouble occurs, it's probably not a bad idea to have a presence... better than having none. I was certainly against the Iraq war, but I'm not against the notion that the US has interests in the region.

The dilemma, as I see it, is we don't know what happens after we leave, and I'm not sure what kind of presence the "embassy" will be. From my view, whatever does happen in Iraq, or in Afghanistan, when we are gone would be the same no matter how long we stay.

Let us suppose that what happens there over the next year or two is very bad. Who gets blamed? Some of us will Blame Obama and other will blame Bush for getting us into a war that could not be won.

I'll remind all that the ultimate goal of the invasion was a more stable middle east. Bush negotiated the withdrawal time frame. If the middle east is not more stable than it was, the entire war effort cannot be construed as anything other than a failure.

[skuthorp]

This demagog--you mean GWB?

It's not always about the US PLL, and certainly not about GWB. I was rather thinking that there is every likelyhood of another strong man subverting the rather unrepresentative and corrupt admin we leave behind.

[John Smith]

Regarding those who say that under a different administration we would still have combat troops in Iraq, didn't Iraq make it very clear that the only way we were going to keep combat troops there is by force used against our supposed ally, the current government of Iraq? As I recall, the elected government there told us in no uncertain terms to get our troops out. To think the a different administration could somehow have convinced the Iraqis to take a different position on this issue strikes me as naive.

There you go again: posting facts.

[John Smith]

It's not always about the US PLL, and certainly not about GWB. I was rather thinking that there is every likelyhood of another strong man subverting the rather unrepresentative and corrupt admin we leave behind.

simple math tells me honest elections in Iraq will lead to Shiite control, and then there will be no more elections in Iraq.

[skuthorp]

Back to square one with so many lost lost and nothing gained eh John?

[ccmanuals]

Recent estimates are at 4 trillion for both Iraq and Afghanistan. This number includes long term care of our wounded.