Square-meter boats

[John Gearing]

Here's a great site ( http://www.home.no/tjohnson/index.htm )on the square-meter boats! For those of you new to these boats, a little history. They developed from the Skerry Cruisers that were popular in the Baltic. Features: tall rigs, short booms, long overhangs, short keels. Both Uffa Fox and L. Francis Herreshoff sailed square-meter boats and wrote that they were in many ways superior to existing 6-meter and R-boat designs. Although they came in several "classes" it is the 22 and 30 Squares that have survived to this day. Uffa Fox used to cruise his, and I believe that there are cruising versions of 30-Squares being built currently. The site even has links to some design drawings for those who really get the itch. Very popular in Norway and Sweden, the square-meter boats never quite caught on here in the States. They are beautiful and fine sailers, and I for one am intrigued by Uffa Fox's statement that compared to a 6-Meter a 22-Square costs half as much, weighs half as much and requires half the sail area to drive her. Here's a shot of one of the 22 square meter boats, Irina IV, built in 1926 from an Anker design:

http://www.home.no/tjohnson/boatimg/irinad.jpg

[ 03-07-2003, 07:31 PM: Message edited by: John Gearing ]

[Leon Steyns]

Thanks! Great link, lots of interesting info...

Greets, Leon Steyns.

[Wild Dingo]

Ive sorta been wondering whatever happened to that fella awhile back who was asking about the info in the mag on the 30sq class as he intended buyin on that was in a barn I think he was in NSW?? there was another outside the barn... mmmm wonder whatever happened there?

Aye but they sure be fine lookin boats matey! Thanks for the link John

[martin schulz]

Have you ever outsailed a FGlass Yacht as casual as overtaking a tractor on the Highway - (of course) a little snotty, with a stiff upper lip, due to theunexpected payback...

This is what it is like to sail with a 30 in a gentle evening breeze on a lake.
I wrote about that before, one of the trade-show guy that work for us owns a swedish 30 "Schärenkreuzer" on a lake near Munich. And I had the pleasure to take the boat out for a sail in the evening. Did I say that we outsailed every plastic-yacht on the lake?

[WWheeler]

The Tumlaren is a 20 metre design that was designed by Knud Reimers. (See the excerpt from WB 19 that folllows). It appears to have less overhang, and more of a canoe stern.

http://www.woodwindyachts.com/sailboats/tumlaren3.jpg

http://www.woodwindyachts.com/sailboats/valhal28.jpg

http://www.woodwindyachts.com/sailboats/VALHA428.jpg

[ 03-10-2003, 10:08 AM: Message edited by: WWheeler ]

[Rich VanValkenburg]

Lots of stuff here - www.sskf.se (http://www.sskf.se) (Swedish Association of the Square Meter Classes)

Rich
(the half model below is our 22 square)

[Noah]

I have been a follower of the SQ Meter class boats for some time now.

I'm very seriously looking to purchase one of them, and wondered if there are any out there for sale that I have yet to locate. I have looked at a couple in the Chicago/Wisconsin area, but not totally settled on any particular boat.

If anyone has information about one for sale please let me know.

Thanks,

Noah

[John B]

A 30 sq being restored here in NZ FYI
http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=4291714845
I haven't been out to see it for some months. It missed it's target completion date. Interesting actually. Sent out from the UK to be restored, will be posted back when completed.

I only have heard of mmm... 4 in this country actually .. including that one. 1 perfect 41 ft, 1 at about 32 ft( small for a 30 sq), the one above,VIVI, at about 43/44 ft now ,and one locally built rotten one. A butchered 50 sq( I believe) metre from Germany.... Can't think of any others.

[WWheeler]

Can anyone comment on the rig used? The story is that they were designed based on skerry cruisers, with exceptionally tall masts in order to catch the wind around small rocky islands in the Baltic called skerries. (Sounds like Georgian Bay.) Yet, the jib looks relatively small. Any of them use jennies?. Another point of interest is that the long canoe stern stays in the water even as the boat heel, in order to maintain speed.

[ahp]

The Museum of Yachting in Newport RI has two 30 Squares. The one that they maintain in sailing condition is OREOLE, designed by LFH, and she has a canoe stern, although much more drawn out.

LFH also designed a double ended, or if you prefer, a canoe stern "J" in the 1930's. She was eliminated in the trials to defend America's Cup. Some say she was not well managed and should have done better.

[John B]

It's just simply that they are a sail area driven class.30 sq m. The early boats were quite small. we have one here that I'm continually surprised to regard as a 30 sq. She's only about 32ft I think.Like any rule, as the class develops , the designers look for speed giving properties within the rule. What has emerged over an extended period is that the longer the hull the better for speed on the water.That's why you see 22 sq metre boats longer than early 30 sq m boats and 30 sqares out to what? 45ft and about 6ft something beam.

You want to see a more recent development of length and beam within a rule, look at how the Americas cup boats have changed from when the class was introduced a decade or so ago. They have got significantly narrower for length and they have evolved back into nearly full counter sterns .

PS those are counter sterns on the 30 sqares ( as a rule) Canoe sterm on the Tumlaren.

The LFH Canoe sterned J class was Whirlwind? She features in Common Sense of yacht design doesn't she.What a shame she was broken up so fast, she could easliy have been with us today. LFH wrote that the bow sections were altered in build on that boat and they couldn't get her to balance without moving the mast some large amount. 10 ft ?

[ 03-12-2003, 03:03 PM: Message edited by: John B ]

[Noah]

The 22 sq Meter that I just made an offer on is roughly 37ft overall, and 30ft on the water line. The sail area of 22sq meters is calculated on the main and the J (distance between the forestay and the mast) of the Jib. You need to note that this is only calculated for 85% of the J, while many of these boats use a 150% Genoa. Some times the Genoa is large enough that it completely overlaps the main sail. While this isn't the most efficient rig design, it gets the job done within the SQ Meter rating system.

I think with some rig tweaking and nice plastic sails I should be able to get this boat to go up wind like the devil.

I suppose the last thing is to see if we can agree on a selling price.

I will post pictures once everything is finalized.

Noah

[Noah]

I should add that it was designed in 1945 by Knud Reimers, and proved faster than many of the earlier boats.

There is some very cool hardware on the boat including under deck adjustments for the forestay tension, and both a winch contolled halyard and downhall/cunningham controls for the jib.

It also has a normal backstay which is used to keep the rig up and put some prebend into the mast. There are two running backstays that are used to pull the forestay tight in highwind/ upwind sailing.

Noah

[WWheeler]

Uh oh WB hysteria breaking out. I'm going to look at a boat tomorrow. (A Tumlaren, also designed by Knud Reimers) It's in a barn way up country. Will report in with photos soon.

[Rich VanValkenburg]

Here's one of the few photos that I have of Sonja under sail. I never could figure out how to jump in the water, take a pic, and call the boat back to pick me up. The power sail was always the 150 genoa. She has all of the cool gadgets to control trim below decks(forestay, cunningham, backstay), but they can be tough to get to while underway. The pre-bend in the mast was created during construction, not as a result of backstay tension.
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid21/p1046bb2423a503aca2cea54881c30d2e/fdb029db.jpg

Here's links to the hull and sail plan that I obtained from the 1935 SSKF yearbook. The jpg's are too big to post here.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid54/pa679a0c4c138dd269a4301f78dae1d f9/fc83627c.jpg (http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid54/pa679a0c4c138dd269a4301f78dae1df9/fc83627c.jpg) This also shows how the bolts through the sternpost go the direction that they do.
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid54/pae3fe1b812d933ad653c8bf123546a c3/fc836279.jpg (http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid54/pae3fe1b812d933ad653c8bf123546ac3/fc836279.jpg)

The Lottningsbot translation means 'lottery boat'. She was a raffle prize.

Rich

[ 03-12-2003, 09:18 PM: Message edited by: Rich VanValkenburg ]

[Chris.]

It was I that was asking about back issues of WB for the 30 sq article.
You may remember that the boat was part of a deceased estate (guy shot his wife and then himself), and negotiations are bloody slow. Everything has to go thru the damn lawyers. Anyway, this 30 sq is also designed by Reimers, and is a sister to the one he designed for the Emperor of Annan (now called Vietnam) in the mid-1930s. It truly is a beautiful object. 43' long and all huon pine. BTW, if anyone else is looking at a Reimers boat, his estate bequeathed all his designs to the Swedish Maritime Museum (Statens Sjöhistoriska Museer ) and it is possible to get copies of the original plans. Contact Eva Hult, the archivist there on eva.hult@sshm.se She quoted me 95 crowns for a set of plans for this boat. This is less than US$12 including postage to Australia.
Anyway, the boat still sits in a shed miles from the sea as it has for four years, along with a couple of Jags, pianos, tables and the mast and rigging of the boat (it's a big shed). Boat is pretty much finished (truckload of money spent on it - could explain the argument with spouse).
He had a beautiful job done on it, except that he ordered the shipwright to put not one but two outboard wells in the back end of the cockpit!. Both outboards (unused) come with the boat. So one issue is closing them up again, and installing a nice light little diesel. As you will have seen by the above posted photos, they are very shallow hulls, and having a donk installed without intruding on the already minute accommodation space will be challenging. And then I have to sort thru the assorted boxes of stuff to work which deck fittings go where etc
Some pictures at the following imagestation url - the outboard wells can be seen at the aft end of the cockpit. There is a coverless outboard stuck in one of them.
30 sq album (http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=4290532477)

[Wild Dingo]

Aye twas ye there CJ... gidday again mate! :cool:

Sooo its all bogged down with the infernal lawyers eh? :rolleyes: aaahhh well we can but hope they'll pull their proverbial fingers out!

Lewan!! That was her! there was also another in the paddock wasnt there? you goin for both or just Lewan CJ? off in on the Jags? HA! ;)

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid54/pac9842039c4ff8b9280329ee5fe55833/fc831d30.jpg

Best of luck and keep us up to scratch on the happenings mate :cool:

[Jochen Ruoff]

Hello,

Martin Schulz maild this link to me, he sailed
on my boat this summer ( he mentioned in his
text) I am not used to write in a forum, so i apologise forward for any mistake.
We have bought a a30 last winter in Sweden, and
found that the class was very active also in Germany. Please see the links www.sskf.se (http://www.sskf.se)
www.sk30.nu (http://www.sk30.nu) and www.schaerenkreuzer.com (http://www.schaerenkreuzer.com)
I have yust posted some pictures of my boat at
www.imagestation.com/album/?id=4290509843 (http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=4290509843)

Greetings from Bavaria
Jochen

[Noah]

Hello Jochen,

You have an very beautiful boat there. It looks like you did a very good and thorough job on the restoration.

You should be proud of the work that you have done. She must be a dream to sail.

Noah

[Rich VanValkenburg]

Wow! A full stem replacement. You have bigger and more gronicles than I, sir. Many of the photos look familiar. Nice job!

S 84
First name/designation -- SSK-1929
Current name on record -- Kinano
Length x beam - 11.7 meters x 2.08 meters
Built in the Rosätra boatyard in 1929
Designed by Gustav Estlander of Stockholm to an order by SSK(Stockholm Sailing Club)
Most famous name -- Bim-Bam-Bulla (no year given for this)

There were two S-84 30 sqm designations, one by Tore Holm, and the other by Estlander.

Rich

[Jochen Ruoff]

Hi Rich,

have you got the book Jakt pa Kryss?
I only know of one s84. Please tell me more.
Kinano was over all lenght about 12,4m and they have cut away some 0,7m because the
stem was rot, or damaged. I have yust started to built her back, before finishing the hull for this season.
Cut away of the stern was very usual in the
late times. I have looked at a A+R design a30 last week wich is probably missing 1,5meter.
I have read so many translation about the
Class Name Skaergardskrysare that I will tell
how the Swedish explain the word.
Skaergard means the thousands of litle Ilands aroud Sweden, Krysare means not to cruis, it means to tack.
The Swedish wanted to design a boat that easyly tacks to windward between to often narrow Islands of the Skaergard. They wanted a boat easier to built than the imr 6 yacht for example which were very popular in that time.
In fact tha a30 has more than 1ton less displacement than a 6mr.As they developt the first qm yachts in about 1906 or so they all had Gaff Riggs, and they changed to Marconi
Riggs step by step after this type of Rigg was
designd by Mr. Marconi from Italy. The bend part on the top of the riggs are in my opinion a reminiscent to the old Gaff Riggs. As you can see on some late Gaff riggs, the Gaff is an add to leght of the short Mast strait up.
A22 and a30 boats are still built in Sweden and Germany( see the link on sskf.se and the
Page in the mentioned book.

Best regards

Jochen

[WWheeler]

Went to see this Tumlaren last week. Some issues with planking, but overall in good condition. Some ribs replaced already. (uses original design with a steel rib every third, plus steel floors) Planking finished bright above the waterline. No motor, no equipment. Mast good, sails fair. Good trailer.


http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid55/pfe7fae59aa7169d81a20fc86ca0dacfe/fc7c34f5.jpg

New ribs in stern.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid55/p3927578af80a389dee098a9fda74f772/fc7c5921.jpg

Refastening where new ribs have been installed.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid55/p0eac130a8c9cf7470cc769bbd44f85c5/fc7c59d7.jpg

Inside forward.
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid55/pc44067f2df72fd81f88d5d7f015eaa0f/fc7c595c.jpg

Old repair - planking about level with the mast. Note the short lengths used. Excessive number of butt blocks on the other side.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid55/p7dbd47fe82afeec8fc25c928d5f3b64e/fc7c58be.jpg

[ 03-18-2003, 12:31 PM: Message edited by: WWheeler ]

[Rich VanValkenburg]

Jochen,

I have the book 'All of Our Square Meters' by Per Thelander. It's written entirely in Swedish, but I do the best I can with a translator tool. The length states 11,7 and also is this way in the 'Matrikel' section of the SSKF web site.

When I get back home tonight I will copy that page of the book and post it here for you. It's possible that one is in error since both boats are listed as 11,7.

I'd like to see a copy of Jacht pa Kryss but it costs more than double the price of the book just to wire money over there.

Rich

[Jochen Ruoff]

Hello,

see this link for Tumlaren
http://sys.websajt.nu/matrikel/dopping.htm

[John Gearing]

Hmmmm....now I can see why the guys at Spirit Yachts compare their boats to the square meters...

Here's a Spirit.

http://www.spirityachts.com/images/gal-7.gif

[WWheeler]

Jochen:

Thanks for the Tumlaren link. I will now have to work on my Swedish!

[Jochen Ruoff]

Hi WWeehler,

mail this guy I am shure he will be happy to answer your questions in English.
The Swedish are all easy going. I have once
tryed to buy this tumlaren, and the seller mailed me lots of beautiful Photoes of his ship. If you can not get them from him, mayby I find them soemwhere on my Comuter.
I found that there are only few tumlaren in Sweden, you can hardly find 1 in a jear to buy, and If you are not quick someone els makes the deal.

Best regards

[WWheeler]

Jochen:

You'll be happy to hear that I bought the boat last night. They're kind of rare around here too.

[lagspiller]

About Sq.Meter rigging....

[QUOTE] Can anyone comment on the rig used?

Square meter rigs are pretty amazing - and not only because they were amoung the first to use most of the so-called modern discoveries. Already in the late 20's & 30's, Sq.m. were using whip-top masts, full length batten, full (rounded) mainsail tops and such goodies. This gave extreme tuning possiblities for sail depth, twist, etc. My boat from '26 had roller reefing. No one today would even think of using something so out-dated in a racing Square.

The Genoa jib was reported to have been introduced to the US on a Swedish 30 Sq.M. in a race series initiated by Herreshof at the Corinthian club - Mass. Modern A-class racers today have bearing-mounted masts that turn with the mainsail. Rod rigging too, I imagine.

The rigs have always been extremely high aspect - very tall, short booms. This is good both for fine tuning and for ability to go into the wind. It also means the rigs develop a lot of horsepower pr. unit of canvas as opposed to low aspect rigs. It can be compared to the same discussion in motors - power or torc. Can't have one without the other, but torc is for heavy work (like moving a heavy hull or dragging a trawl). High aspect is for thoroughbreed racing.

Another interesting fact is that, although the rule is based on sail area, the amount of sail flown is not locked to the stipulated area - and never has been. Jib area is measured between jibstay and mast - everything past the mast is unmeasured. A 30 Sq.M. will generally fly a genoa which overlaps much of the main. Downwind a 30 will put up something like 150 Sq.m. of sail. That is a lot of sail for a boat that a 3 hp outboard will push at about 6 kt. Rudder magazine from way-back-when also credited the Sq.M. class for the first use of the spinacher in any US race series.

My Sq. is built to the international rule of 1923 - which is much more moderate than the Swedish rule of 1925 that is now in use. My mast is 12 meters long. The boat is less than 10 meters. It originally had double spreaders, double jib stays (so that new jibs could be bent on before dropping the jib in use) and a foretop stay. The foretop ran through the deck to a block&tackle for tension adjustments and for release when the spinacher was used.