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Dr. Arthur Trollingson
11-19-2011, 11:07 AM
Watch a True American Patriot(TM) in action at 0:10.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BjnR7xET7Uo





That, my friends, is how you deal with people who sit where they aren't supposed to sit.

Arizona Bay
11-19-2011, 11:15 AM
Disgusting....

I suppose calling out the National guard will be next

John Smith
11-19-2011, 11:16 AM
If I were the people these protesters were protesting, my response would be to ignore them. Actions such as this, thankfully, will grow the movement.

You will soon see Wall Street and other 1% ers applying money and political pressure to misrepresent this protest, which, I'm guessing, will head to DC sometime soon.

The cop using the pepper spray is one of the 99% these people are speaking up for.

I'm reminded of Jim Bouton thanking all those people who objected so loudly and publicly to his book, "Ball Four" and making it a best seller.

Phillip Allen
11-19-2011, 11:24 AM
an organized protest would include a peacful protest at the homes/locations of the ones ordering this act... at the same time... deviding the agressive forces so as to protect their patrons

David W Pratt
11-19-2011, 11:27 AM
What is next? Kent State redux?

Dr. Arthur Trollingson
11-19-2011, 11:38 AM
an organized protest would include a peacful protest at the homes/locations of the ones ordering this act...

That sounds like harassment of a public servant. I wouldn't put such insidious tactics past that bunch of malcontents. Some of their ranks have already posted what is supposedly Officer Spraycan's name online.


at the same time... deviding the agressive forces so as to protect their patrons

This bunch of nogoodnicks have some romantic infatuation with non-violence. They won't lay a finger on the Peace Officers. I was waiting for one of them to come flying out of the crowd to beat the snot out of the guy spraying the freedom juice, but it wasn't to be.

Dr. Arthur Trollingson
11-19-2011, 11:42 AM
That video was taken out of context.

What kind of crack are you smoking?

There were a bunch of hippies sitting in the middle of a pedestrian path, surrounded by police. Presumably they had been told to move, and subsequently declined to do so.

Suddenly, the sweet pepper spray of justice was deployed.

That, my friend, is how America is supposed to work. You don't need any more context for the times things go right.

bobbys
11-19-2011, 11:50 AM
I would have delivered a very stern lecture, this works well with mr left and glenn when they act up here

Andrew Craig-Bennett
11-19-2011, 11:57 AM
The violence of the protesters was shocking. Fancy sitting down like that and not moving for several minutes!

JimD
11-19-2011, 11:58 AM
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/297728_10150381533859563_532284562_8388437_1088790 206_n.jpg

Dr. Arthur Trollingson
11-19-2011, 12:00 PM
Here's a wonderful photo essay about True Patriots:

http://www.theatlantic.com/infocus/2011/11/occupy-wall-street-faces-evictions/100189/


http://cdn.theatlantic.com/static/infocus/occupy111511/s_o06_32696457.jpg





http://cdn.theatlantic.com/static/infocus/occupy111511/s_o26_32885664.jpg

BrianW
11-19-2011, 12:15 PM
I think still photos are great, and can induce very strong feelings. However, they often don't tell the whole story.

That said, I don't understand the pepper spraying either. It doesn't seem to work as a means to remove protestors. It will deter attacks though.

JimD
11-19-2011, 12:32 PM
...That said, I don't understand the pepper spraying either. It doesn't seem to work as a means to remove protestors. It will deter attacks though.

Somebody should tell the cops. The current version of their training manual apparently says it makes an excellent deterent against peaceful, legal assemblies. Since supplies may be limited it should be saved for this use and not squandered on attackers.

bobbys
11-19-2011, 12:35 PM
Portland occupier uses kid as human shield.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKa4ibE9SAg&feature=player_embedded

JimD
11-19-2011, 12:38 PM
Portland occupier uses kid as human shield.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKa4ibE9SAg&feature=player_embedded

What should he need to be shielded against? Maybe he thought will all those cops around it should be the safest place for the child to be. Maybe the cops should do a little serving and protecting for a change.

Dutch
11-19-2011, 12:46 PM
pepper spray?

I think not- a friendly spritz of de- lousing agent and febreeze never hurt anyone. :)

Lew Barrett
11-19-2011, 12:46 PM
pepper spray?

I think not- a friendly spritz bit of de- licing agent and febreeze never hurt anyone. :)

Funny. Not. The smiley does little to offset the meanness of the comment.

Dutch
11-19-2011, 12:51 PM
Funny. Not. The smiley does little to offset the meanness of the comment.

really? who cares? :)

Lew Barrett
11-19-2011, 01:04 PM
I am starting to grow more interested in the coverage supplied by Democracy Now.

NYC councilman arrested at OWC Wall Street (http://www.democracynow.org/2011/11/18/nyc_council_member_ydanis_rodriguez_detained)

Imagine how dangerous this 84 year old is! (http://www.democracynow.org/2011/11/17/84_year_old_dorli_rainey_pepper)

This movement will grow legs. It is a surprise to me that the only right wing adherent on this board to have grasped it's actual intent and value has been Mark.

Something the right and the left needs to get together on is an understanding of how deeply entrenched business interests are in the governing of this country and the world at large. At some level everyone understands that a lot of favor is for sale and that something fundamental has happened to our process. It has been going this way for several decades, and as the most active proponents on both the right and the left have sensed, there is something increasingly disturbed about the way our processes have developed of late. I tend to believe that this is the result of the coordination of interests...or rather the outright ownership of them.....by big business. The right will feel that it is the result of meddling by government, but I see it as the opposite: the meddling by business in government. Regardless.....the process is becoming increasingly owned.

Big Media, namely CNN, Fox and the networks, have identified politicians as customers every election cycle and have equally become increasingly difficult to sort through and out. There is something fundamentally on point about the anguish in the streets. Who here truly believes that our democratic process is not at risk?
Occupy Wall Street may or may not be the answer to this, but it is very much time to uncover the rot and the root. Air and sunshine will be needed as a start.

Lew Barrett
11-19-2011, 01:11 PM
really? who cares? :)

You should. "Who cares" is so very third grade, don't you think? Maybe you don't!

Boring mixed with snide and mean is a very disappointing persona to see coming from a once very entertaining avitar. Insight mixed with humor suits you and your esteemed handle so much better.

L.W. Baxter
11-19-2011, 02:32 PM
...This movement will grow legs. It is a surprise to me that the only right wing adherent on this board to have grasped it's actual intent and value has been Mark.

Something the right and the left needs to get together on is an understanding of how deeply entrenched business interests are in the governing of this country and the world at large. At some level everyone understands that a lot of favor is for sale and that something fundamental has happened to our process. It has been going this way for several decades, and as the most active proponents on both the right and the left have sensed, there is something increasingly disturbed about the way our processes have developed of late. I tend to believe that this is the result of the coordination of interests...or rather the outright ownership of them.....by big business. The right will feel that it is the result of meddling by government, but I see it as the opposite: the meddling by business in government. Regardless.....the process is becoming increasingly owned.

Big Media, namely CNN, Fox and the networks, have identified politicians as customers every election cycle and have equally become increasingly difficult to sort through and out. There is something fundamentally on point about the anguish in the streets. Who here truly believes that our democratic process is not at risk?
Occupy Wall Street may or may not be the answer to this, but it is very much time to uncover the rot and the root. Air and sunshine will be needed as a start.

My counterpoint to you, Lew, would be the Tea Party. I have no use for their politics, but they proved that our democratic process still works. They got together, formed a fairly cohesive block of like-minded voters, elected a bunch of their idealogues, and damn near brought the house down on all of us. Left wing voters could get together and change the terms of business in government, if we could pull our head out of our collective posterior. But the Occupy movement ain't gonna do it. They are laser-focused on creating conflict with the police. They are worse than useless.

John Smith
11-19-2011, 03:15 PM
Lew , the lefts head man is Obama. The democrat party of leftist are in charge. They had majority house & senate for 2 years and failed. You leftist are the threat to the democratic process. Leftist ideology is flawed , the occupy Wall street crowed are useful idiots of the corrupt leftist leadership. Wall street and capitalism are the scape goat of the left. Like the jews of nazi Germany. It is socialism in this country that needs to be reined in. Socialism in Europe has failed and will fail here.

There you go again: forgetting all those filibusters.

John Smith
11-19-2011, 03:16 PM
My counterpoint to you, Lew, would be the Tea Party. I have no use for their politics, but they proved that our democratic process still works. They got together, formed a fairly cohesive block of like-minded voters, elected a bunch of their idealogues, and damn near brought the house down on all of us. Left wing voters could get together and change the terms of business in government, if we could pull our head out of our collective posterior. But the Occupy movement ain't gonna do it. They are laser-focused on creating conflict with the police. They are worse than useless.

As a crowd, I'm not sure they're laser focused on anything, and that might prove a problem. Time will tell

L.W. Baxter
11-19-2011, 03:29 PM
Your logic is correct. The libs and the democrat party may not desire to destroy America but I do believe elements of the democrat party and occupy wall street crowd does.

The same could be said regarding elements of the Tea Party, and was even publicly stated by a few of the loonies they elected to the House. Remember the debt-ceiling hostage situation?


Obamas poor leadership and screw ups makes me think he is part of the crowd that desire to destroy America.
Laws can regulate capitalism to reduce corruption and protect human rights. We did it during the industrial revolution. Every man deserves a square deal,. nothing more and nothing less. We have been duped and We the People have not held our political leaders accountable.

Obama wants to be a Great American President, not the boob who destroyed a fine nation. I fully agree with the rest of your statement.

WX
11-19-2011, 03:46 PM
Lew , the lefts head man is Obama. The democrat party of leftist are in charge. They had majority house & senate for 2 years and failed. You leftist are the threat to the democratic process. Leftist ideology is flawed , the occupy Wall street crowed are useful idiots of the corrupt leftist leadership. Wall street and capitalism are the scape goat of the left. Like the jews of nazi Germany. It is socialism in this country that needs to be reined in. Socialism in Europe has failed and will fail here.
I just love it when you right wing Yanks use the word socialism.

Nicholas Scheuer
11-19-2011, 04:06 PM
Your "Patrio"t looks more like a Thug to me.

When the police are ordered to clamp down on the OWS, they only make OWS more determined. Just like the days if MLK, some thugs just don't get it.

Moby Nick

PeterSibley
11-19-2011, 05:48 PM
"Socialism" is a dirty word.

Socialism is a word, as a policy objective it is a great thing to balance against winner take all capitalism .It works in Australia, it works in Europe .The only thing that is threatening Europe is the banks and their lending .

Lew Barrett
11-19-2011, 05:51 PM
My counterpoint to you, Lew, would be the Tea Party. I have no use for their politics, but they proved that our democratic process still works. They got together, formed a fairly cohesive block of like-minded voters, elected a bunch of their idealogues, and damn near brought the house down on all of us. Left wing voters could get together and change the terms of business in government, if we could pull our head out of our collective posterior. But the Occupy movement ain't gonna do it. They are laser-focused on creating conflict with the police. They are worse than useless.

I'd thought of that, the Tea Party analogy. I'm just beginning to try and work this out for myself, so bear with me as I try on some ideas for size, Lee. What the Tea Party has morphed into, both rapidly and seamlessly, is the right wing of the Republican Party. The ideology has been adopted almost without reservation, at least in words, by the entire party. I would say they were co-opted if I were of a cynical mind, which I am at the moment.

That was a rather easy way to defuse them, although I'd agree, they managed to elect some representatives, several of which have gone as far as to take abortive runs at the Presidency. I suspect most of them will be absorbed into some kind of business as usual, with the difference that they will have to wear their ideological trappings for a while. Those who do not get bought out will probably be part of what I would suspect is a passing fad of history. In the end, the "revolution" of the Tea Party as we understand that party today (a populist movement) will either recede or prove to be....what's the polite word for somebody who sells their services? Pretty harsh, but I reckon it is happening as we watch Tea Party congresspeople slide easily and without discord into the main body of the Republican Party and it's agenda. Easily, even cheaply purchased I could surmise.

I can't say where the OWS is headed, and I suspect a clever Democratic leadership could just as easily co-opt their sentiment and style to turn raw energy into controlled support and votes. And if I were to be more cynical, I could even say that within the seeds of such a development, further co-opting will become visible in short order.

I am hopeful that this won't happen and that a more flexible and coherent philosophy and menu of actions will develop from the soup we see now. I have more confidence in a...... hopefully eyes open...... progressive movement to take the proper steps to gain a legitimate voice, as there is one thing I am quite fearful of being true: corporate interests wield far too much power in the halls of congress today for the health of the republic.

I am no communist, no socialist and believe in the power of individuals to make the most important positive contributions to their own lives., but the era of corporate welfare must come to an end if we are to make progress as a nation.

PeterSibley
11-19-2011, 06:18 PM
I thought GM paid back the loan ?

L.W. Baxter
11-19-2011, 06:18 PM
...corporate interests wield far too much power in the halls of congress today for the health of the republic...

Agreed. And I think there are enough people all over the political spectrum who feel the same to root that power out. Corporate power has been reined in before in the U.S.; think "trust-busting". It can be done again.

I think confrontations between protesters and police are a distraction from that goal, obscuring just what and who needs to be fought. The video in the O.P. makes me sad, but I don't think it proves anything about "the police", or who they truly serve.

Lew Barrett
11-19-2011, 06:22 PM
Same as the tea party. GM is now Obama motors,

You picked one of the examples of public spending that might actually work out as a dividend for America and almost certainly resulted in job creation or at least maintenance. I have no objection to partnership if it results in a benefit to the people, and if the investment can be properly/ legitimately justified on ecological, economic and social grounds.
For discussion, but don't expect a response to sniping. I have my own gripes with some of Obama's policies they just happen not to align with yours.

Dr. Arthur Trollingson
11-19-2011, 07:06 PM
Your "Patrio"t looks more like a Thug to me.

When the police are ordered to clamp down on the OWS, they only make OWS more determined. Just like the days if MLK, some thugs just don't get it.

Moby Nick

You didn't see his steely resolve and commitment to the rule of law?

That man is a patriot. He was given the order to clear the walkway, and he didn't let his own judgment, or sense of human decency stand in the way of that objective. He stepped right over those hippies, reached for that can, and sprayed it with such grace it could have been Lady Liberty herself shooting them in the face. It's the only choice he could have made. To touch them while making an arrest the old fashioned way would be to risk contaminating himself with progressivism. True Patriots can't take risks like that. Simply arresting them wouldn't have inflicted pain either. Those hippies need to learn that standing or sitting in the way of freedom will hurt like hell if a True Patriot sees them.



The video in the O.P. makes me sad, but I don't think it proves anything about "the police", or who they truly serve.

What? Do you hate freedom or something? A True Patriot should be overcome with joy when they see principled men who will stop at nothing to enforce the rule of law.

If that video proved anything, it's that those men serve the law more than they serve their own humanity. There's no room for empathy in a situation like that; only obedience to orders.

PeterSibley
11-19-2011, 07:13 PM
Well said oh furry one , I apologise for my response the other day .It must have been precoffee .You do it well .Perhaps there's a future a demotivational speaker at TP rallys ?


You didn't see his steely resolve and commitment to the rule of law?

That man is a patriot. He was given the order to clear the walkway, and he didn't let his own judgment, or sense of human decency stand in the way of that objective. He stepped right over those hippies, reached for that can, and sprayed it with such grace it could have been Lady Liberty herself shooting them in the face. It's the only choice he could have made. To touch them while making an arrest the old fashioned way would be to risk contaminating himself with progressivism. True Patriots can't take risks like that. Simply arresting them wouldn't have inflicted pain either. Those hippies need to learn that standing or sitting in the way of freedom will hurt like hell if a True Patriot sees them.




What? Do you hate freedom or something? A True Patriot should be overcome with joy when they see principled men who will stop at nothing to enforce the rule of law.

If that video proved anything, it's that those men serve the law more than they serve their own humanity. There's no room for empathy in a situation like that; only obedience to orders.

WX
11-19-2011, 07:14 PM
I voss only following orders. Sorry guys but the US significantly dropped it's standards after 911 when detention without trial and torture became the norm.

Sadly we've had similar responses from police in this country to peaceful demonstrations.

brad9798
11-19-2011, 07:19 PM
Walked through Kiener Plaza the other day ... the area of the St. Louis protestors ... what a joke ... nastiness EVERYWHERE! Many homeless and unemployed folks ... many used condoms ... booze bottles broken ... thousands of pieces of trash EVERYWHERE ... feces ... smell of body odor ... smell of pot ... syringes ... littering the site ... openly having sex in lawn chairs ... I was appalled ... a month long binge more than a protest, me thinks.

Yea- this what a protest is all about ... reminds me of Haight-Ashberry (sp?) in the 1960s ...

Get these folks the hell outa here ... :mad:

brad9798
11-19-2011, 07:21 PM
This peaceful demonstration has become an expose on the underbelly of society in many cases! This is not what it was supposed to be about!

It has, as is human nature, gone to far ... and lost nearly ALL focus.

Pepper spray the hell out of them!

Tylerdurden
11-19-2011, 07:27 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHhrZgojY1Q

ChaseKenyon
11-19-2011, 07:49 PM
Personally, in my view as someone who fact checks multiple things in every one of these posts, the opinions, most of which are not facts so far expressed here are predominately based on standard Fox News Ideology, or opposite equivalent.

The amount of conclusions made on those non facts show as much real research and knowledge of the topics under discussion as the Typical Herman Cain displays of lack of current event and global topics knowledge as in " Libya I just want to make sure we are talking about the same Libya" or some such drivel. And then we have the quite well documented comments by Perry and Bachmann that are so far wrong as to be a comedy routine if not having been spoken in earnest by the candidates themselves. Like Our founding fathers fighting the long battle against slavery til they won, and it all started in concord NH.

Id like to point out that in our form of democracy from federal to state and even local level in most things a simple majority does not control and get to do as they please.
a simple majority rule is when 51% of the people force the other 49% to do all the work for none of the profits from that work.

WE have a system where the marginal top tax rate has gone from over 90% in the fifties to what it is now as a actual average of 17% of income due to the freebie on dividends and capital gains.
I have posted this information so many times here.

THis is not opinion that your opinion is of equal value to. These are the real hard historical facts.


Year/Rate/TMTR/On amount over $
1940 81.1 5,000,000
1941 81 5,000,000
1942 88 200,000
1943 88 200,000
1944 94 <2> 200,000
1945 94 <2> 200,000
1946 86.45 <3> 200,000
1947 86.45 <3> 200,000
1948 82.13 <4> 400,000
1949 82.13 <4> 400,000
1950 84.36 400,000
1951 91 <5> 400,000
1952 92 <6> 400,000
1953 92 <6> 400,000
1954 91 <7> 400,000
1955 91 <7> 400,000
1956 91 <7> 400,000
1957 91 <7> 400,000
1958 91 <7> 400,000
1959 91 <7> 400,000
1960 91 <7> 400,000
1961 91 <7> 400,000
1962 91 <7> 400,000
1963 91 <7> 400,000
1964 77 400,000


and we were a debt free country that built dams and the entire Interstate Highway system and then started on the track to put a man on the moon, When NACA and the newest mind bogglers of aviation imaginable became NASA and the space program. WE can be again just by raising the TMTR on just the top; 0.01 percent of the population back to a real 35 % on income over, not $400,000, but over 1,000,000.

A 35% tax rate on earnings over $1,000,000 for less than on tenth of one percent of he taxpayers. Grover Norquist had to have failed every economics class if he took any. Besides who Elected him to control whether anything gets done (the work we elected congressmen/women and Senators to do for us) in the house or the senate.

Isn't a constitutionally spelled out form of treason to use money or any kind of force or threat to control the the votes of the House and or Senate or the decisions of the Supreme Court? Check your history books gang, I am sure it's in the laws of he land somewhere.



The democrat party of leftist are in charge. They had majority house & senate for 2 years and failed.

THis is a sorry sorry piece of unmitigated slander. If you take the trouble and actually check on what the POTUS has accomplished in spite of dealing with a party of no that he did not have a filibuster proof majority, you will be amazed.

I am a long term Republican but was and am upset by the GOP lock step to prevent bill and acts from happening even good ones they authored (for the simple here that is voting agaiunst your own bill just because Obama says he would sign it gladly) just so it would not happen and be a good thing on Obama's watch.

I am just overwhelmed that he he actually accomplished in 3 years more than any one POTUS did even in 8 years.

The unmitigated BS here in this thread and others that have political components, is riddled with unfounded long proven untruths disparaging the right or the left or ?.

I am glad I have had my hip waders on. ;)

It does seem to me that unless some start doing better at fact checking and stop escalating the level of BS we will soon need "full body condoms" to open threads here in the bilge.:arg:arg


Come on, do some homework once in while. You may be surprised at what you can learn.

peb
11-19-2011, 08:17 PM
.The only thing that is threatening Europe is the banks and their lending .

This is a false statement. The banks are threatening Europe, because they have been lending to heavily to governments who cannot come close to paying their bills. And those same governments you are defending rigged the banking rules to insure that banks would make a large portion of their assets the sovereign debt that is do questionable.

Yes the banks are in trouble, but if they had not been lending recklessly to those governments, the problem would have occurred sooner.

Sane thing is happening here in the US, only we are a couple of years behind. Banks putting ever greater percentage of assets in treasuries.

Paul Pless
11-19-2011, 08:33 PM
THis is not opinion that your opinion is of equal value to.eh?

yzer
11-19-2011, 08:33 PM
UC Davis police have done some dumb things over the years but this one takes the cake. The Faculty Association has called for the immediate resignation of UCD Chancellor Linda Katehi, but she stated that she will not resign.

peb
11-19-2011, 08:39 PM
I thought GM paid back the loan ?

A lie propagated by the Obama administration was that the loans had been paid back and that was all there was to it. They conveniently left out the fact the Feds owned over 60% of GM with Canadian governments owning the rest. At the time the loans were paid off, it was effectively shifting money between federal agencies

Now they have done an ipo and the us shares have been reduced to 30% or so. But the company is still majority owned by governments.

LeeG
11-19-2011, 08:41 PM
this is just sad

TomF
11-19-2011, 08:45 PM
I agree governments have been overspending their allowances - and IMO they absolutely share blame with the banks ... who lent to them.

Why do (democratic) governments do that? All politics is local.

The really big spending is always some combination of defence and social spending. Will your Congressmen get re-elected if they gut a defence contract that is a major employer in their constituency - one that pumps enough income into the local economy to support small businesses, support real estate markets, etc.? How about if they seriously rip into Medicare and Medicaid benefits, affecting a lot of voters in their own regions?

The point is, democratic Governments follow, they don't lead. They follow what will get them elected, and re-elected. Which means they follow what the CITIZENS will reward with their votes. That's the daily reality in my office. There are some very significant problems we can't get Government to address ... because no Government which did the "right" thing would get re-elected. It would affect too many voters, in too many regions.
"
The problem isn't Government, or the evil Banks. Sure, they've got a role, and there's plenty of blame to go around. But the problem is us. "The buck stops here" shouldn't have been on President Truman's desk ... it should be printed over polling booths.

BrianW
11-19-2011, 08:57 PM
You didn't see his steely resolve and commitment to the rule of law?

That man is a patriot. He was given the order to clear the walkway, and he didn't let his own judgment, or sense of human decency stand in the way of that objective...

I know and understand irony is your favorite way to express yourself. Which of course means you don't believe it yourself.

But... that cop is a product of his civilian leadership. Much like the military is run by the CIC, President Obama right now.

If he's following the current local police/protester protocol, don't judge him, but look at society in general.

yzer
11-19-2011, 09:06 PM
As of now the chancellor and police chief (both women, interestingly) are still in the hall where they gave a press conference this afternoon. Occupy types and students (a few hundred) have surrounded the hall, leaving only a narrow protester-lined exit route from the hall. I don't think the chancellor and police chief want to run that gauntlet. It's beginning to rain in Davis right now, which may cool things down a bit.

Mrleft8
11-19-2011, 09:23 PM
I would have delivered a very stern lecture, this works well with mr left and glenn when they act up here
Shall I infer that you are referencing me? If so, be aware that stern lectures don't have much effect on me.... I am much more apt to respond to the other end.;)
As to the original troll here, obviously a sick, perverted individual.... IMHOP.

yzer
11-19-2011, 09:58 PM
Chancellor Katehi left the building while the protestors watched in silence.

Peter Malcolm Jardine
11-19-2011, 10:08 PM
Socialism is a word, as a policy objective it is a great thing to balance against winner take all capitalism .It works in Australia, it works in Europe .The only thing that is threatening Europe is the banks and their lending .


Don't forget us... Socialism is working up here in Canuckistan too..

Hmm... maybe the american system isn't working.

PeterSibley
11-19-2011, 10:14 PM
My apologies ! The People's Republic of Canuckistan included ...an honourable mention !

yzer
11-19-2011, 10:18 PM
Video of Chancellor Katahi leaving Surge II and walking through the protesters to her car. Video shot by protester about 50 minutes ago. The Chancellor appears about 7:30 into the video. Watch from the start to see how this peaceful crowd is organized.

http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/18631629

(http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/18631629)

Durnik
11-19-2011, 10:18 PM
I know and understand irony is your favorite way to express yourself. Which of course means you don't believe it yourself.

But... that cop is a product of his civilian leadership. Much like the military is run by the CIC, President Obama right now.

If he's following the current local police/protester protocol, don't judge him, but look at society in general.

and yet you (presumably) willingly judge those who protest..

The cop is a person. He made the decision to act that way. The fact that he was hired by (other) thugs who knew he would respond thus in no way absolves him of his actions.

He, and those who hired/directed him, are to be judged.

enjoy
bobby

brad9798
11-19-2011, 10:47 PM
Evidently, no one wants to really hear about the the occupy sites really are ... :(

TomF
11-19-2011, 11:03 PM
Evidently, no one wants to really hear about the the occupy sites really are ... :(Oh, I'm sure they're pretty nasty from any number of standpoints. Hygeine, garbage, and the detritus of the various things people do to, erhmm, occupy themselves when they've got a lot of time on their hands doing not much. Put a large number of young adults into the mix, and there'll be a higher proportion of some predictable items in that garbage. ;)

I also fully believe that a bunch of homeless folks have moved into the camps - probably not least because while the tent cities held, they could camp there in a bit more safety from harassment than when they ordinarily slept rough - which oughta say something most of us don't want to hear. And they're part of the 99% too.

Brad, I'd have found some of the places pretty repulsive too, and have been very turned off by some of the behaviour. I really do hear you - and I'm quite aware that somehow over the decades I've turned into a middle-aged man with many of the opinions about that stuff that middle aged men have traditionally had. Makes me give my head a shake, realizing that!

But the reasons they're out there are as real as ever, despite the behaviour some of the lot have indulged in. And equally repulsive behaviour is on show in other places most weekends - acted out by folks on all sides of the "Occupy" issues.

L.W. Baxter
11-19-2011, 11:28 PM
...If that video proved anything, it's that those men serve the law more than they serve their own humanity. There's no room for empathy in a situation like that; only obedience to orders.

What do you know about humanity, you damned monkey?

This particular video captures one police officer doing one cruel thing, in a multi-city showdown that is now months long, and involves thousands of law enforcement officers working overtime as faithful, professional, public servants.

Here in Portland, a protester threw a rock during a peaceful standoff and injured a police officer. I guess all "those protesters" serve themselves more than they serve their own humanity?

That video proves spit.

brad9798
11-19-2011, 11:32 PM
BEST POST I have read today, TomF ... thank you for sharing that!! Seriously! :)

BrianW
11-19-2011, 11:32 PM
and yet you (presumably) willingly judge those who protest..

Ah, but I said nothing of the kind.


The cop is a person. He made the decision to act that way. The fact that he was hired by (other) thugs...

The other "thugs" are the general public.


He, and those who hired/directed him, are to be judged.

Well, you can judge him for doing the job we hired him to do, but at least you admit we need to judge ourselves too.

Geno
11-20-2011, 12:38 AM
Police officers as professional public servants. Now, THAT is good. I have been a jack-booted thug employed by the dot and never once regretted a thing I did. I landed a job as a state trooper because of those years spent honorably. Less than a month on the job, I was forced into a corner, lie on the stand for a fellow officer or be ostracized.

I told everyone who would listen and some that wouldn't that they did not want to put me on the stand because a man only has his honor at the end of the day. I left that job after I was actually left in the cold.

I do not hate leos but it will be a cold day in hell (if hell existed) before I would ever call any force "professional". I only see a few college degrees of any sort in the shops I've been in and most of the workers there are a damn long shot away from professional anything. "Skilled labor"......maybe. Wal-Mart has a much longer training program than 90+% of the municipalities out there.

Dr. Arthur Trollingson
11-20-2011, 01:11 AM
What do you know about humanity, you damned monkey?

This particular video captures one police officer doing one cruel thing, in a multi-city showdown that is now months long, and involves thousands of law enforcement officers working overtime as faithful, professional, public servants.

Here in Portland, a protester threw a rock during a peaceful standoff and injured a police officer. I guess all "those protesters" serve themselves more than they serve their own humanity?

That video proves spit.

Apparently you missed the 20 cops who stood behind Officer Spraycan and accompanied him in battle phalanx formation out of the park, after being offered a hippie truce.

Apparently you also missed the 20 Portland protesters who pushed Mr. DouchebagsgotARock out of the crowd into the arms of the cops.

Dr. Arthur Trollingson
11-20-2011, 01:22 AM
Chancellor Katehi left the building while the protestors watched in silence.

Thank you for the updates.

Citizen journalism is the best kind of journalism.

Meli
11-20-2011, 01:28 AM
I've taken my kids to several BIG (100,000 plus attendees) political demonstrations, Union marches etc, always in the happy knowledge that our police and protesters behave .

Until now
seems we can protest the treatment of our indiginees, protest war in Iraq, protest Work regulation "reforms"...
But draw attention to the bankers and corporative thievery?????

Our police must have been sooooo scared of these scruffy malcontents they even wore their caps.
http://resources3.news.com.au/images/2011/10/21/1226173/515883-occupy-melbourne-protest.jpg

http://static.lifeislocal.com.au/multimedia/images/small/1500578.jpg http://directaction.org.au/files/images/occupy%20melbourne.jpg http://images.theage.com.au/2011/10/21/2721673/art_occupy-420x0.jpg


The police had been having an industrial dispute with the State for months.
Funny, a week after the Demonstration they got an 18% pay rise.

BrianW
11-20-2011, 01:34 AM
Police officers as professional public servants. Now, THAT is good...

We are talking about the actions video taped and shared here. If that is official policy, then the officer was acting professionally as we the public have deemed.

If not, then burn him.

Again, I don't support the pepper spraying in that incident, I'm just not willing to throw the officer to the lions, if that's what we hired him to do.

Dr. Arthur Trollingson
11-20-2011, 01:36 AM
Until now
seems we can protest the treatment of our indiginees, protest war in Iraq, protest Work regulation "reforms"...
But draw attention to the bankers and corporative thievery?????


The police had been having an industrial dispute with the State for months.
Funny, a week after the Demonstration they got an 18% pay rise.

Citizen journalism is the best kind of journalism.

{even though you're a Pinko Commie Socialist}

Curtism
11-20-2011, 01:37 AM
Right around two months after the Occupy protests began, a story from Portland made top center billing on the front page of our local St Petersburg Times. This is the pic they ran with the headline.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/.a/6a00d8341c630a53ef0162fc928e4f970d-600wi

That young lady sure looks like she presents a grave threat to the fellows in riot gear, doesn't she? OMG, look at that gal to her right. What's that she's holding up? Looks like a threat to me.

Maybe a couple of that "fine patriots" buddies, like C9 and D3 perhaps, should whisk him off to the nearest donut shop and help take care of his sugar imbalance before he does something really stupid on the national stage. Oh, wait, too late . . . never mind.

Curtism
11-20-2011, 01:47 AM
Thank you for the updates.

Citizen journalism is the best kind of journalism.

+1 Thanks Yzer . . .

Meli
11-20-2011, 01:49 AM
Citizen journalism is the best kind of journalism.

{even though you're a Pinko Commie Socialist}

Hmm? My days of chanting, walking arm in arm forming human barricades were long over.

These last years, I'll turn up, walk quietly with the main body, quietly listen to the main speeches and go home.

After the incidents in Melbourne, my red socks are calling from the draw.

All hail Gen X :D

The Bigfella
11-20-2011, 01:55 AM
Meli... there's a difference between protesting and occupying. Too subtle for you?

Meli
11-20-2011, 02:09 AM
Ian, this is not the first time protesters have occupied public space.
This is the first time they have been removed with force.

No one was complaining except a few cafe owners. The general public joined in fcs and got caught up in the police actions.

The Bigfella
11-20-2011, 02:28 AM
That's just not right. I've been removed from public space that I was occupying in a protest

PeterSibley
11-20-2011, 03:24 AM
That's just not right. I've been removed from public space that I was occupying in a protest

Yep me too but they didn't pepper spray us in the eyes first or the then current equivalent .

The Bigfella
11-20-2011, 03:27 AM
Nah... they just grabbed the women by a boob and the blokes by the hair and dragged them away

PeterSibley
11-20-2011, 03:28 AM
I think you just might have hit the nail on the head Meli .


I've taken my kids to several BIG (100,000 plus attendees) political demonstrations, Union marches etc, always in the happy knowledge that our police and protesters behave .

Until now
seems we can protest the treatment of our indiginees, protest war in Iraq, protest Work regulation "reforms"...
But draw attention to the bankers and corporative thievery?????

The police had been having an industrial dispute with the State for months.
Funny, a week after the Demonstration they got an 18% pay rise.

PeterSibley
11-20-2011, 03:31 AM
Nah... they just grabbed the women by a boob and the blokes by the hair and dragged them away

Not at the Vietnam demos in Bris they didn't. The Springbok demos were the bad ones, coppas on horseback with clubs. The Moratorium versions were gentle by comparison.

The Bigfella
11-20-2011, 03:34 AM
Just a bunch of losers who can't pr don't want to make a go of life. Tell them to spend a month in Timor-Leste and then see how they view life. Maybe its time for some of us older blokes to demand the young mob actually do some contributing eh?

The Bigfella
11-20-2011, 03:35 AM
Not at the Vietnam demos in Bris they didn't. The Springbok demos were the bad ones, coppas on horseback with clubs. The Moratorium versions were gentle by comparison.

Yep... I remember the marbles under the horses hooves. Charming stuff

PeterSibley
11-20-2011, 03:56 AM
Yep... I remember the marbles under the horses hooves. Charming stuff

Not by me , I like horses even when the coppas used them like weapons of war. I DO remember the boys in blue using their batons like cavalry sabres though. Apathied was something Joh felt quite strongly about ... he liked it and had a pretty decent facsimile going in Queensland .

Meli
11-20-2011, 04:56 AM
Nah... they just grabbed the women by a boob and the blokes by the hair and dragged them away

But I'm talking about civilized Melbourne not the rag tag decendants of the Rum Corps or lovely old Hinzes mob of thugs:D

Protesters occupied the steps of parliment here in the Kennett years for months.

skuthorp
11-20-2011, 05:00 AM
To me it seems that Meli is right about the Vic Police, bought. The more violent the authorities actions the longer they will go on, and don't forget violence begets violence and fear and frustration by the authorities will ramp it up as those people truly believe that people can be beaten into submission.
As far as the pepper spray incident is concerned citizen journalism means that many of the police faces are recognisable and identifiable. Modern technology and a half decent hacker means they can be named. I hope someone is keeping an archive.

PeterSibley
11-20-2011, 05:10 AM
http://pic40.picturetrail.com/VOL282/9443996/17245530/399618783.jpg


To me it seems that Meli is right about the Vic Police, bought. The more violent the authorities actions the longer they will go on, and don't forget violence begets violence and fear and frustration by the authorities will ramp it up as those people truly believe that people can be beaten into submission.
As far as the pepper spray incident is concerned citizen journalism means that many of the police faces are recognisable and identifiable. Modern technology and a half decent hacker means they can be named. I hope someone is keeping an archive.

McMike
11-20-2011, 09:21 AM
My counterpoint to you, Lew, would be the Tea Party. I have no use for their politics, but they proved that our democratic process still works. They got together, formed a fairly cohesive block of like-minded voters, elected a bunch of their idealogues, and damn near brought the house down on all of us. Left wing voters could get together and change the terms of business in government, if we could pull our head out of our collective posterior. But the Occupy movement ain't gonna do it. They are laser-focused on creating conflict with the police. They are worse than useless.

The Tea Party was as "grass roots" as my collection of plastic grocery bags sitting in the back corner of my kitchen cabinet. While their initial efforts were organic, the Republican Party swooped in fast and early to co-opt their message. The OWS is a true "grass roots" event as far as I can tell, their point has been to not adopt any specific demands simply because it would distract from the one (all be it vague) goal of the whole exorcize; that goal being, to try to fix the imbalance between the 1% and the 99%. There is so much that needs to be done to that end that the movement would be mired in an insane amount of minutia if it were to start to focus on any amount of them. The point of the movement IMHO is to raise awareness of the overall frustration of the embattled middle/working class and to hopefully spur the politicians to start working towards the interests of the people instead of just the big-money-interests.

As to your complaint that the OWS folks are "laser-focused on creating conflict with police"; the majority of violence I see is originating from the police and if passive resistance is useless I'd like to hear an alternative. So far you've presented the Tea Party movement as an example of how to get things done when I think it's clear that that movement was largely an invention coming from the upper echelon of the far Right Wing in government and business.

I'm sure the OWS movement would like to hear a better way as it's getting cold and they clearly are seen as useless by thinking people, the last thing I think they wanted to be seen as. Maybe you can help or do you simply think everything is fine.

McMike
11-20-2011, 09:37 AM
What? Do you hate freedom or something? A True Patriot should be overcome with joy when they see principled men who will stop at nothing to enforce the rule of law.

If that video proved anything, it's that those men serve the law more than they serve their own humanity. There's no room for empathy in a situation like that; only obedience to orders.

LO Flippin L!!!!!

John Smith
11-20-2011, 10:30 AM
Socialism is a word, as a policy objective it is a great thing to balance against winner take all capitalism .It works in Australia, it works in Europe .The only thing that is threatening Europe is the banks and their lending .

I think many forget how much socialism we enjoy in this country. The many roads we drive on, the lovely parks my grandkids play in, the water that comes from my kitchen sink and the drains that take it away are all provided by the government. It is the government who maintains the dredged harbors and the navigation aids. It's also the government who grants the licenses, certifcate of marriage, and the divorce. Our government maintains records of birth, death, etc. It provides an education for our children. It provides the police and firefighters to protect us. It provides the court system through which we can seek compensation if we've been harmed.

I often wonder how may things our government provides the anti-socialism crowd would like to live without.

There are some things better done by the private sector. There are other things better done by the government. The trick is to get the proper blend.

Phillip Allen
11-20-2011, 10:34 AM
http://pic40.picturetrail.com/VOL282/9443996/17245530/399618783.jpg

notice the salute behind the can guy?

Phillip Allen
11-20-2011, 10:40 AM
What do you know about humanity, you damned monkey?

This particular video captures one police officer doing one cruel thing, in a multi-city showdown that is now months long, and involves thousands of law enforcement officers working overtime as faithful, professional, public servants.

Here in Portland, a protester threw a rock during a peaceful standoff and injured a police officer. I guess all "those protesters" serve themselves more than they serve their own humanity?

That video proves spit.

one cop doing one cruel thing???
what about all those who stood and allowed it to happen? protect and serve? PROTECT??? they are just as guilty

John Smith
11-20-2011, 10:46 AM
What do you know about humanity, you damned monkey?

This particular video captures one police officer doing one cruel thing, in a multi-city showdown that is now months long, and involves thousands of law enforcement officers working overtime as faithful, professional, public servants.

Here in Portland, a protester threw a rock during a peaceful standoff and injured a police officer. I guess all "those protesters" serve themselves more than they serve their own humanity?

That video proves spit.

We need to tread carefully in this area. With all those people protesting, it's not unreasonable to expect a few with short tempers. History shows us that in events like this it's not unheard of for cops to dress as protestors, join the crowd, and start violence, which is then blamed on the protesters.

Best we keep an open mind.

Paul Girouard
11-20-2011, 10:51 AM
We need to tread carefully in this area. With all those people protesting, it's not unreasonable to expect a few with short tempers. History shows us that in events like this it's not unheard of for cops to dress as protestors, join the crowd, and start violence, which is then blamed on the protesters.

Best we keep an open mind.

Ah, OK there Tyler! More likely it's union thugs joining the crowd , prolly retired postal workers LOL.

John Smith
11-20-2011, 10:55 AM
We are talking about the actions video taped and shared here. If that is official policy, then the officer was acting professionally as we the public have deemed.

If not, then burn him.

Again, I don't support the pepper spraying in that incident, I'm just not willing to throw the officer to the lions, if that's what we hired him to do.
I think we have to take into account the number of Police who have not done such things, and not judge the entire force or the "policy" by the actions of a very few.

I would like to think most cops accept the fact they are part of the 99% and they, too, have been screwed by the 1%.

John Smith
11-20-2011, 10:57 AM
That's just not right. I've been removed from public space that I was occupying in a protest

Lincoln Park in '68 ring any bells?

Durnik
11-20-2011, 10:58 AM
Originally Posted by Durnik http://forum.woodenboat.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?p=3204438#post3204438)

and yet you (presumably) willingly judge those who protest..



Ah, but I said nothing of the kind.


Originally Posted by Durnik http://forum.woodenboat.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?p=3204438#post3204438) The cop is a person. He made the decision to act that way. The fact that he was hired by (other) thugs...



The other "thugs" are the general public.


Originally Posted by Durnik http://forum.woodenboat.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?p=3204438#post3204438) He, and those who hired/directed him, are to be judged.



Well, you can judge him for doing the job we hired him to do, but at least you admit we need to judge ourselves too.
A) hence my 'presumably'.. however, even tho you did not verbalize those precise words, your intent is reasonably clear.
B) The other 'thugs' are _not_ the general public.. They are the men & women in expensive suits who hire others to do their dirty work for them, while reaping the profits & smiling all the way to their free, to them, medical care & enjoyable vacations around the world.. Medical care & vacations that most of the 99%, who do _all_ the work & collect _little_ of the rewards, can not afford.
C) I did not hire him, nor do I condone his hiring.
D) If we, as a society, are actually hiring professional thugs, as police, to attack peaceful citizens who are engaging in their 'supposedly' constitutional right to assemble & seek redress, then we have failed. Completely.

We are, and we have.



>I was forced into a corner, lie on the stand for a fellow officer or be ostracized.
Geno..
I know two fellows who fell into that same position.. One did as you.. & I have the utmost respect, now, for him, and you, as a person. The other (I knew) did the opposite.. I feel the death penalty should be reserved for those who abuse the publics trust.. & he surely did abuse the publics trust.. & he surely does deserves it.. as does the cop with the spray.. & the cops who stood by & prevented others from 'interfering'. Society likes to talk of the 'example' the death penalty sets for 'criminals'. I say let's set an example for cops & politicians. They might just change their tune.. not that I'm holding my breath or anything..


I do not hate leos but it will be a cold day in hell (if hell existed) before I would ever call any force "professional". I only see a few college degrees of any sort in the shops I've been in and most of the workers there are a damn long shot away from professional anything. "Skilled labor"......maybe. Wal-Mart has a much longer training program than 90+% of the municipalities out there.

I know a gal back in MA who married a cop.. She tells me that when he puts his uniform on, she leaves the room. Apparently, he is actively taught to be rude & threatening to 'civilians' (tho the police are civilian too, eh?), & that includes her. That, seemingly, is the greatest 'training' they get. That is _not_ what I want to see in a police department. But it is what societies 'leaders' want in a police force.

ETA:


I would like to think most cops accept the fact they are part of the 99% and they, too, have been screwed by the 1%.

Not withstanding my previous statements, I concur with this.. The operative word being 'most', or perhaps, 'many', but not 'all'.. I have known some of the many.. &, for them, I have respect.

FWIW
bobby

John Smith
11-20-2011, 11:01 AM
Ah, OK there Tyler! More likely it's union thugs joining the crowd , prolly retired postal workers LOL.

Let's just take care to realize it may not be what it looks like.

Nicholas Scheuer
11-20-2011, 11:13 AM
The more the police behave like thugs, the more certain that OWS will overcome.

As for "the homeless" occupying the camps: WHY NOT? Who is more disenfranchised than they?

The selfish pigs who populate the Repub Party say "faith-based organizations" should helphomeless, but i's those same repubs who populate the "faith-based organizations" like the 700 Club. Wall Street is where the real money is. Hey, that 18% pay bump for the police ain't bad, neither. That lines up with Wiscon's Governor exempting police and fire from his ban on collective bargaining for public employees, LIKE TEACHERS.

Moby Nick

rbgarr
11-20-2011, 11:25 AM
My counterpoint to you, Lew, would be the Tea Party. I have no use for their politics, but they proved that our democratic process still works. They got together, formed a fairly cohesive block of like-minded voters, elected a bunch of their idealogues, and damn near brought the house down on all of us. Left wing voters could get together and change the terms of business in government, if we could pull our head out of our collective posterior. But the Occupy movement ain't gonna do it. They are laser-focused on creating conflict with the police. They are worse than useless.

Barney Frank agrees with you, as fwiw do I: http://www.mediaite.com/tv/barney-frank-unhappy-with-occupy-wall-streeters-who-blame-me-for-consequence-of-their-not-voting/

yzer
11-20-2011, 11:53 AM
The use of pepper spray on the UCD demonstrators seems unwarranted to me. These are students sitting down, arms locked on a pathway running through the middle of the Quad, a large park-like square in the middle of campus. They are not impeding movement through the Quad in any way. It would be quite easy to cross the Quad by simply walking around the demonstrators.

It would easy for police to remove these demonstrators without the use of pepper spray. The police were wearing protective riot gear so it's not likely that they would be injured while doing so.

One Sacramento news reporter quipped this morning that the police applied "a liberal amount of pepper spray."

However, someone had to authorize the use of pepper spray on these students. Most of the police shown in the video are from the City of Davis Police Dept., who are frequently called upon to assist the small UCD Police Dept. for all kinds of campus events.

McMike
11-20-2011, 11:57 AM
Ah, OK there Tyler! More likely it's union thugs joining the crowd.

The question to ask, if this is happening at all, is; what would the "Union Thugs" have to gain by such actions vs. what would the entrenched government have to gain? While it is possible for "Union Thugs" to act as agitators, it is at least equally as likely that the interests that want to keep the status quo in government are also playing the same game.

IT is well noted that there are factions of the protesters are intent on violence but the overall message has been one of passive resistance.

Ray Frechette Jr
11-20-2011, 12:00 PM
While I don't share much philosophically with the occupy movement I am disgusted with the excesses of the government in trying to close down these camps.

I have no problem with the government closing down the camps if the camps are in violation of laws and rules. I also would have no problem with the government forces using tear gas and such antics if they were attacked. But spraying tear gas in the faces of people who are simply refusing to leave is disgusting.

Shoot, bring enough force to keep the police safe and arrest anyone who refuses to disburse. If you can't unlink students arms sit them out. 15-20 hours... sooner or later they will have to go to the bathroom. or will fall asleep. Remove them at that time. No excuse at all for striking or pepper spraying in absence of violence on the part of the protesters.

Doesn't make me more likely to agree with the protesters views though on what they want done. I am, however, not at all impressed with the police.

ABC news footage also showing footage from New York with the public forced to show identification to go down to Wall Street.

Really? the Government is requiring you to show papers to be in a public space??

Not at all impressed with that either.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/occupy-protesters-beaten-pepper-sprayed/story?id=14990310

L.W. Baxter
11-20-2011, 12:09 PM
Barney Frank agrees with you, as fwiw do I: http://www.mediaite.com/tv/barney-frank-unhappy-with-occupy-wall-streeters-who-blame-me-for-consequence-of-their-not-voting/

Word.

McMike
11-20-2011, 12:36 PM
Word.

Interesting, I think OWS is in response to the ridiculous reward many people gave to the Republican Party as well as the failures of the Obama admin. Speaking for myself, I voted for change, the mandate was delivered to Washington in 08, the Republicans decided to directly attack that mandate.

I believe that the folks of OWS, if they were of voting age in 08 and 10, voted. They did their duty and their voice was not heard, instead it was subverted. They are now doing, what is within their right to do BTW, the only thing that is left to do. I find it telling that our society has come to this very disturbing symptom of the ills within our government.

Let me ask you, the freedom you have now, how was it gotten? I think the passive resistance that the majority are practicing is a far better solution to the violence of outright revolution, don't you?

Paul Girouard
11-20-2011, 12:41 PM
Let me ask you, the freedom you have now, how was it gotten?

I think the passive resistance that the majority are practicing is a far better solution to the violence of outright revolution, don't you?



#1: Blood, sweat and tears. Mostly of US military personnel.

#2: Are you saying the OWS crowd is a majority of US citizens? If not what "majority" are you speaking of?

McMike
11-20-2011, 12:47 PM
[QUOTE=Paul Girouard;3204992]#1: Blood, sweat and tears. Mostly of US military personnel.

1: I meant originally gotten, and the answer I was looking for was outright revolution . . . you remember the revolutionary war for independence? Independence from what was it now? . . . .


2: No I meant the majority of the OWS folks were practicing passive resistance and that is a good thing.

Lew Barrett
11-20-2011, 03:53 PM
Lee, May I suggest you spend some time on this site?:

Democracy Now (http://www.democracynow.org/)

I think there is a lot of interesting stuff there, and they certainly have a well developed viewpoint and some fairly convincing articles.
It's been one of my sources of late, and I think they are reliable for the most part.

They cover a lot more than OWS, but it's been their headline story for the last weeks.

Chris Coose
11-20-2011, 04:13 PM
I think still photos are great, and can induce very strong feelings. However, they often don't tell the whole story.


http://a6.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/376380_2446715481338_1055434766_2672491_1986653724 _n.jpg


This pig will do more for the message than a thousand hippies.

LeeG
11-20-2011, 04:21 PM
that is wrong and unnecessary. All I can imagine is taking a stick to that officers arm and knees then getting MY head stove in.




Davis, holy sh*t, it's got a school of Oenology, this shouldn't be happening.

George Jung
11-20-2011, 04:24 PM
Caught that bit on TV - and it was no more illuminating than the still life above. It looks like a photo op; when they panned the camera, lots of folks just standing around, waiting for the show - and then the policeman calmly walked down the line, spraying that small group of 'protestors'.

It looked staged and contrived. But I've heard virtually nothing more about that.

PeterSibley
11-20-2011, 04:28 PM
Staged ? I surely wouldn't like to be one of the actors. I reminds me of the Ghandian salt marches in India where the protesters were unprotestingly beaten .

Minnesnowtan
11-20-2011, 04:30 PM
I did not see anywhere mentioned if this was a legal demonstration or not? If they did not have a permit and so forth, then they deserved the pepper spray.

LeeG
11-20-2011, 04:33 PM
Caught that bit on TV - and it was no more illuminating than the still life above. It looks like a photo op; when they panned the camera, lots of folks just standing around, waiting for the show - and then the policeman calmly walked down the line, spraying that small group of 'protestors'.

It looked staged and contrived. But I've heard virtually nothing more about that.


Well yes it could be performance art by a local theater group.

George Jung
11-20-2011, 04:34 PM
Perhaps. I saw none of the buildup before the event, only the 'event' itself. And while I've no sympathy with the use of pepper spray, I don't see the utility of the event, from
either perspective. Small group of 'protestors', among a very large crowd of protestors/voyeurs. Were they causing a disruption/obstruction? There were, what - less than a dozen? They certainly weren't causing a ruckus - sitting quietly on the ground. The police looked like someone simply going through the motions, emotionless. The only 'winner' in this one might be the protest, having an image of over-reaction by Authority. But again - to me, it looked bizarre, staged for the camera. The police even seemed to be waiting for an order to begin the spraying.

PeterSibley
11-20-2011, 04:39 PM
I did not see anywhere mentioned if this was a legal demonstration or not? If they did not have a permit and so forth, then they deserved the pepper spray.

Fair and just you reckon ? Pepper spray in the eyes as a standard punishment for infractions of pedestrian rulings ?
Jaywalking ...yep
littering ... yep .
Dog crapping on the path ..yep

It sure beats fines, less paper work too. A bit like the Taliban goons beating people with canes for public infractions of the local code .

Chris Coose
11-20-2011, 04:40 PM
I did not see anywhere mentioned if this was a legal demonstration or not? If they did not have a permit and so forth, then they deserved the pepper spray.

Are you going to go further with that question or are you waiting to "see", lingering in the deservedness of it all?

frank pedersen
11-20-2011, 05:14 PM
Dr. Arthur Trollingson:

Would you be kind enough to tell me what kind of "Dr." degree you have? And what university conferred the degree?

Frank Pedersen, Ph.D.

Meli
11-20-2011, 05:26 PM
I did not see anywhere mentioned if this was a legal demonstration or not? If they did not have a permit and so forth, then they deserved the pepper spray.

Legal demonstration????
Um, dont you guys have freedom of assembly, association, free speech etc somewhere in your sacred document??

Lew Barrett
11-20-2011, 05:31 PM
Dr. Arthur Trollingson:

Would you be kind enough to tell me what kind of "Dr." degree you have? And what university conferred the degree?

Frank Pedersen, Ph.D.

Oh my. He has a degree......in Science!

LeeG
11-20-2011, 05:32 PM
Dr. Arthur Trollingson:

Would you be kind enough to tell me what kind of "Dr." degree you have? And what university conferred the degree?

Frank Pedersen, Ph.D.

chortle, guffaw, snort, Dr. Mad!

Meli
11-20-2011, 05:32 PM
Dr. Arthur Trollingson:

Would you be kind enough to tell me what kind of "Dr." degree you have? And what university conferred the degree?

Frank Pedersen, Ph.D.

Dr of Devils advocacy :D

LeeG
11-20-2011, 05:32 PM
Oh my.

indeed, best we get upwind.

Horace
11-20-2011, 05:36 PM
At least out of range.

Chris Coose
11-20-2011, 05:37 PM
Legal demonstration????
Um, dont you guys have freedom of assembly, association, free speech etc somewhere in your sacred document??

No hints from the foreigners Meli.

Meli
11-20-2011, 05:41 PM
No hints from the foreigners Meli.

Oooops, my apologies :D

Chris Coose
11-20-2011, 05:53 PM
From CNN reporting on the administrative leave for two campus cops.

http://www.cnn.com/2011/11/20/us/california-occupy-pepperspray/index.html?hpt=hp_t1


Earlier, UC Davis spokeswoman Claudia Morain said police used pepper spray after protesters encircled them and blocked them from leaving. Cut off from backup, the officers determined the situation was not safe and asked people several times to make room, Morain said.

But Spicuzza said the officers were put on leave after "discussion and reviews and time to contact these officers."

Guessing the campus cops told the Admin they felt unsafe. Thanks to the still photographer who captured the horrible fear the police suffered and reported.
The crowd is calling for the UCD Chancellor's head too. Off with it I say for allowing her spokesperson to report stupid and to can just 2 of these "police".

Lew Barrett
11-20-2011, 05:55 PM
Legal demonstration????
Um, don't you guys have freedom of assembly, association, free speech etc somewhere in your sacred document??

There is no doubt that this has moved into the realm of civil disobedience. Civil disobedience is not (to my knowledge) covered as a right in the documents, but the right to free (lawful) assembly, free speech, freedom of association is.

However, many freedoms...rights.... have been questioned or temporarily suspended by the authorities over the years. We have no shortage of examples of how firmly power can be used (or abused) against those with grievances. Among the most dramatic, and one that has very distinct echoes today:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xkmo4ygPTjc

Two steps forward, one step back. Once the students get involved, things really start to happen, for better or worse.
The deep roots of significant civil disobedience are largely responsible for the Civil Rights Act, the end to the war in Viet Nam, and of course, Woman's suffrage. There are equal examples of public demonstrations with little or no pretenses of forward motion in respect to civil liberty, of which a possible example might be the Draft Riots of 1863, also in New York City. Although to be fair, the draft laws of the American Civil War were patently unfair to the poor and recent immigrants to the country, notably the Irish.

The hinge point for assembly in this country is and probably will be the word "lawful" as it applies to OWS. No permit, no mass assembly. Getting permits will be the trick.

LeeG
11-20-2011, 06:25 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8775ZmNGFY8&feature=player_embedded

Chris Coose
11-20-2011, 07:00 PM
Lee, after that, the thread title might be changed to: This is how the Occupiers deal with it.

Cripes, I had a bit of Monday morning blues tonight.

johnw
11-20-2011, 07:31 PM
I know and understand irony is your favorite way to express yourself. Which of course means you don't believe it yourself.

But... that cop is a product of his civilian leadership. Much like the military is run by the CIC, President Obama right now.

If he's following the current local police/protester protocol, don't judge him, but look at society in general.

"I blame society?" That used to be what liberals said about criminals. Now it's what conservatives say about cops. Funny old world.

George Jung
11-20-2011, 07:34 PM
I thought I'd read that the cops ended up suspended over this? That would suggest that perhaps they weren't following protocol?

Anybody know?

Meli
11-20-2011, 07:49 PM
At what point does this become common assault?

Durnik
11-20-2011, 07:53 PM
I thought I'd read that the cops ended up suspended over this? That would suggest that perhaps they weren't following protocol?

Anybody know?

Actually, in the U.S. of A., leave with pay gets the cops out of the public eye, allowing the powers-that-be to pretend they 'are doing something about it'.. Meanwhile, the cops will be found to have used 'justifiable force' & be completely exonerated & re-instated. An all too common occurrence in a country where cops routinely kill with impunity.. A simple pepper spraying is nothing for them to get excited over. The nonchalance/arrogance of the cops in question demonstrates this quite well.

enjoy
bobby

sailboy3
11-20-2011, 07:54 PM
I thought I'd read that the cops ended up suspended over this? That would suggest that perhaps they weren't following protocol?

Anybody know?

They were put on indefinite paid leave, due to the uproar over the video.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2011/11/uc-davis-officers-placed-on-leave.html

Chris Coose
11-20-2011, 07:56 PM
At what point does this become common assault?

When the cops begin smashing heads with their sticks, but usually the state's attorney general will clear the cops if it is determined to be criminal.
We will see as many cops fired as necessary so's the University people don't lose their jobs. But with this one, some of them are going to go too.

Thanksgiving is going to give the UC system some breathing room but I think this cop caught the thing on fire.

L.W. Baxter
11-20-2011, 07:59 PM
Oh good, the kids figured out who is to blame and taught her a righteous lesson. We can all go home now, right?

Where's Bluto and Otter when we need them.

Chris Coose
11-20-2011, 08:02 PM
I thought I'd read that the cops ended up suspended over this? That would suggest that perhaps they weren't following protocol?
Anybody know?

This anybody must be on your ignore list.

Ray Frechette Jr
11-20-2011, 09:32 PM
I did not see anywhere mentioned if this was a legal demonstration or not? If they did not have a permit and so forth, then they deserved the pepper spray.

Really? They deserve to be pepper sprayed if they don't have a permit to protest? No more concept of proportional response??? They deserve to be beat on the head with a hardwood stick too if they don't have a permit?? At what point would the cops be justified in shooting them??

If they gave the cop a dirty look and they didn't have a permit??

If they were threatening the cops or throwing things at the cops I wouldn't have a problem with pepper spraying. But the only action I see in the video is bystanders video taping officers pepper spraying protesters who are disobeying an order to leave.

Dr. Arthur Trollingson
11-20-2011, 09:52 PM
Dr. Arthur Trollingson:

Would you be kind enough to tell me what kind of "Dr." degree you have? And what university conferred the degree?

Frank Pedersen, Ph.D.

I have multiple Doctorates, Dr. Frank.

The one I'm most proud of is my Dr. of the Art of Science. I don't like to brag, but I earned it at a prestigious University that is known in academic circles as the Harvard of the Cayman Islands. Most monkeys can't even get past the entrance exams, let alone go on to lead a department, but just like anywhere, talent is rewarded. Also bribes, bribes are rewarded too.

johnw
11-20-2011, 09:55 PM
I have multiple Doctorates, Dr. Frank.

The one I'm most proud of is my Dr. of the Art of Science. I don't like to brag, but I earned it at a prestigious University that is known in academic circles as the Harvard of the Cayman Islands. Most monkeys can't even get past the entrance exams, let alone go on to lead a department, but just like anywhere, talent is rewarded. Also bribes, bribes are rewarded too.

Well, we knew you were smart from the glasses.

Dr. Arthur Trollingson
11-20-2011, 10:00 PM
If they were threatening the cops or throwing things at the cops I wouldn't have a problem with pepper spraying. But the only action I see in the video is bystanders video taping officers pepper spraying protesters who are disobeying an order to leave.

They were actively resisting. Curling up in the fetal position is something no officer wants to see. It's like looking at a ball of pure danger lying on the ground.


Charles J. Kelly, a former Baltimore Police Department (http://content.usatoday.com/topics/topic/Baltimore+Police+Department) lieutenant who wrote the department's use of force guidelines, said pepper spray is a "compliance tool" that can be used on subjects who do not resist, and is preferable to simply lifting protesters.

"When you start picking up human bodies, you risk hurting them," Kelly said. "Bodies don't have handles on them."

After reviewing the video, Kelly said he observed at least two cases of "active resistance" from protesters. In one instance, a woman pulls her arm back from an officer. In the second instance, a protester curls into a ball. Each of those actions could have warranted more force, including baton strikes and pressure-point techniques.

"What I'm looking at is fairly standard police procedure," Kelly said.



http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2011-11-19-uc-davis-pepper-spray-occupy-protests.htm

Minnesnowtan
11-20-2011, 10:56 PM
If it was an illegal assembly, and they had been asked to leave etc etc ad nauseum . . . . .yes, then this was an appropriate use. Sorry, you just do not play that game with that many people because if they are allowed to start to attack the police, then mob mentality takes over and they have a whole lot larger mess on their hands. So I do feel if the assembly was illegal and they did not comply with the orders to disperse in that kind of crowd it is very well warranted.

Ray Frechette Jr
11-20-2011, 11:20 PM
Call in m,ore police. Maybe the real police rather than campus security. Have enough police that it is not an issue.

Disperse the spectators. If spectators refuse to leave arrest them.

Split the group up.

If it becomes physical and protesters start anything than elevate force used.

from video shown I can't for the life of me imagine me siting on a jury and not finding that the Police used excessive force.

Durnik
11-20-2011, 11:24 PM
mob mentality takes over

Ah, yes.. Cops do exercise mob mentality on a very regular basis.. Scary, that.. You are correct.. It must stop..

enjoy
bobby

Durnik
11-20-2011, 11:26 PM
Well, we knew you were smart from the glasses.

Glasses? I thought he was one o' them lemurs with the eye patches..Hmm.. needs new glasses meself, I thinks.. ;-)

enjoy
bobby

Meli
11-20-2011, 11:33 PM
If it was an illegal assembly, and they had been asked to leave etc etc ad nauseum . . . . .yes, then this was an appropriate use. Sorry, you just do not play that game with that many people because if they are allowed to start to attack the police, then mob mentality takes over and they have a whole lot larger mess on their hands. So I do feel if the assembly was illegal and they did not comply with the orders to disperse in that kind of crowd it is very well warranted.

You know, It would have been especially exciting if they had been welfare moms.
I am beginning to suspect that you have a little controlling issue.

Lew Barrett
11-20-2011, 11:39 PM
If it was an illegal assembly, and they had been asked to leave etc etc ad nauseum . . . . .yes, then this was an appropriate use. Sorry, you just do not play that game with that many people because if they are allowed to start to attack the police, then mob mentality takes over and they have a whole lot larger mess on their hands. So I do feel if the assembly was illegal and they did not comply with the orders to disperse in that kind of crowd it is very well warranted.

Something to remember regardless of permits, is that these are UC Davis students. It is in every respect, their school. The quads, the lawns, the knolls, these are places where they can get together to cheer on a team without having a permit. They opted to meet there for the purpose of a political demonstration instead, and were greeted with violence. Their purpose, not the gathering, was really what was being responded to. Had it been a football game, the pepper spray would likely have stayed holstered.

johnw
11-20-2011, 11:49 PM
If it was an illegal assembly, and they had been asked to leave etc etc ad nauseum . . . . .yes, then this was an appropriate use. Sorry, you just do not play that game with that many people because if they are allowed to start to attack the police, then mob mentality takes over and they have a whole lot larger mess on their hands. So I do feel if the assembly was illegal and they did not comply with the orders to disperse in that kind of crowd it is very well warranted.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Meli
11-20-2011, 11:52 PM
While what you say is undoubtedly true, the idea of having to have a permit for a peaceful political demonstration anywhere in public space or risk getting pepper sprayed, your head cracked or tasered is ludicrous and smacks of totalitarianism.

I can just see it, "..please sir/madam, we don't like the way this country is going and a few rich people ripping the rest of us off, may we have a demonstration permit please?" (tugging caps)

johnw
11-20-2011, 11:55 PM
Now, here's an interesting point of view:



http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/ten-miles-square/2011/11/dumbass_training_and_the_uc_da033608.php#
By Peter Moskos


This UC Davis pepper-spray (http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/political-animal/2011_11/as_one_would_spray_pesticide_o033602.php) incident from yesterday, in which campus police sprayed a group of protesting “Occupy” students who were sitting on the ground, was just brought to my attention. I don’t know all the facts, but as a former cop-turned-academic, there’s one thing I can say.


In the police academy, I was taught to pepper-spray people for non-compliance. Ie: “Put your hands behind your back or I’ll… mace you.” It’s crazy. Of course we didn’t do it this way, the way we were taught. Baltimore police officers are too smart to start urban race riots based on some dumb-ass training. So what did we do to gain compliance? We grabbed people. Hands on. Like real police. And we were good at it.


Some people, perhaps those who design training programs, think policing should be a hands-off job. It can’t be and shouldn’t be. And trying to make policing too hands-off means people get Tased and maced for non-compliance. It’s not right. But this is the way many police are trained. That’s a shame. (Mind you, I have no problem using such less-lethal weapons on actual physical threats, but peaceful non-compliance is different.)


When police need to remove protesters—whether that’s even the case here I don’t know—it needs to be crystal clear who gives the order, be it the president of the university or the ranking officer on scene. Officers on the scene shouldn’t be thrown under the bus because their superiors gave stupid (albeit lawful) orders. Accountability matters.


And if police need to remove these students, then the police can go in four officers to one protester and remove them. Lift them up and take them away. Maybe you need one or two more officers with a threatening baton to keep others from getting involved. It really can be that simple.


People don’t hate the police for fighting off aggressors or arresting law breakers. They do hate police for causing pain—be it by dog, fire hose, Taser, or mace—to those who passively resist. And that’s what happened yesterday at U.C. Davis.

Lew Barrett
11-21-2011, 12:38 AM
While what you say is undoubtedly true, the idea of having to have a permit for a peaceful political demonstration anywhere in public space or risk getting pepper sprayed, your head cracked or tasered is ludicrous and smacks of totalitarianism.

I can just see it, "..please sir/madam, we don't like the way this country is going and a few rich people ripping the rest of us off, may we have a demonstration permit please?" (tugging caps)

If you are speaking to me, I don't disagree in principle, but in practice, if large bodies of people are to gather for extended periods of time, organization is necessary. In an enlightened society such as we profess to be, it would be for that purpose that permits would be granted; to allow for organization of basic needs. With an entrenched oligarchy or totalitarian world view, the permit would be denied to deny the message. Permitting an area for mass gathering to the purpose of making it safe and comfortable is one thing; banging heads is entirely another. We expect....demand... authorities walk the fine line between truly protecting basic freedoms and truly protecting the people and that is at question here, as we discuss it. Only light, air and sunshine will reveal the meaning of our American authorities on the one hand, and the viability of this movement on the other. The whole thing is in flux and a moving target, but it hardly surprises me that we are having conflict given the nature of what is at stake.

I am very encouraged when the young get interested and it's been a fair number of years since they have shown interest at this level, not that this is solely a movement of youth. I expect a fair amount of uncomfortable, unpleasant and misguided events and I believe there has been a fair amount of that; cop baiting and so on. But I really don't believe that is what characterizes the vast majority of the people who wish to support the central tenet of OWS: that corporate influence in American politics (and the world at large) is way out of proportion to any benefit that will be returned to the vast majority of the people who are increasingly threatened by an enhanced and powerful oligarchy.

Our process looks increasingly like it has been bought.

BrianW
11-21-2011, 01:32 AM
I've taken the view that the police were trying to remove the protesters, peacefully first, then elevated the use of force in increments.

They could have gone straight to bashing skulls, and there's a slight indication here that somehow that's okay and different.

You know why they never used pepper spray in the 60's?... because they didn't have it.

Now, if we want to discuss if we, Joe public, approve of that measure, we have to accept some level of responsibility.

Chris Coose
11-21-2011, 05:55 AM
Like the cop being a bit ouf of shape, the pepper spray having a color to it makes a nice touch. It's like picante hurl in a can.


we have to accept some level of responsibility.

I'll take responsibility for the immediate reaction to wanting to take a 2x4 to that cop. It'll be interesting to see if all the others who feel that way will take responsibility for the rage and move it into the positive direction of the agenda. Ganhdi and King knew how that worked. You know, in the days before pepper spray.

Tylerdurden
11-21-2011, 06:36 AM
Constantly amazed and disgusted at how much media influences peoples positions and understanding. Also just flabbergasted at how many simpletons just want to defend corruption and raping of the people at large by the multinational corporations merged with government.

"Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable."
John F. Kennedy (http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/j/john_f_kennedy.html)


Call me doom and gloom all you want but many here seem to get off on wanting violence and seem to enjoy the idea of where this is heading. I for one do not. I tend to understand it is inevitable and pray it falls on the selfish self centered generations before the children have to deal with it. The world is chock full of true cowards looking for any excuse not to participate. You will get what you pay for. Count on it.

TomF
11-21-2011, 10:40 AM
If it was an illegal assembly, and they had been asked to leave etc etc ad nauseum . . . . .yes, then this was an appropriate use. Sorry, you just do not play that game with that many people because if they are allowed to start to attack the police, then mob mentality takes over and they have a whole lot larger mess on their hands. So I do feel if the assembly was illegal and they did not comply with the orders to disperse in that kind of crowd it is very well warranted.Let's imagine for a moment a hypothetical situation in which the protesters had actually got a permit, but exactly the same activity happened. That is:

Protesters were sitting on the ground,
Police directed them to move,
Protesters non-violently resisted, and
Police nonchalantly pepper sprayed protesters in the face.
Minnesnowtan, if legal permits were in place, at what point would the protesters be justified in exercising their 2nd Amendment rights?

Now let's imagine that the very same little drama happened at one of the Tea Party demonstrations we've seen in the past, where protesters exercised both their Constitutional rights to free speech/association ... and to bear arms

Do you think the police response to non-violent resistance would have been similarly "proportionate" were the demonstrators openly carrying firearms? Why?

yzer
11-21-2011, 12:59 PM
Things are moving in the right direction. UC Davis Police Chief Annette Spicuzza was placed on administrative leave this morning.

A rally is planned on the Quad at noon today: two hours from now.

The UCD policeman who did most of the spraying and another who assisted were in radio contact with someone immediately before the decision was made to use pepper spray. UCD police went to the Quad to remove illegal campers, which they did with assistance from City of Davis police. As they left the Quad police encountered the seated protesters who the police claim were blocking their exit route. A large student crowd was quickly gathering and surrounding the police force.

You need to review several of the videos taken from different angles to see what happened next. Just before UCD Lt. Pike began spraying the students a group of Davis City cops approached the protesters from the opposite direction and politely asked them to move aside. These policemen drove to the location with a squad car, parking on the same sidewalk perhaps twenty feet in front of the protesters. Thus, an exit route was clearly available to the UCD police group if they chose to step over, move side or sidestep the seated protesters. My next door neighbor of more than twenty years was one of those City of Davis policemen.

The use of pepper spray on the students was clearly unnecessary and represented an unwise escalation of force. I'd like to know who authorized the use of pepper spray in this situation and if that person was given an accurate evaluation of the situation at hand. The radio communications between the Quad and UCD Police station will probably be very useful in this investigation.

MiddleAgesMan
11-21-2011, 01:04 PM
On a lighter note, here's what has evolved out of it--pepper spray in history and art: http://gawker.com/5861431/uc-davis-pepper-spray-cop-is-now-a-meme/gallery/1

...not that this is a laughing matter.

ccmanuals
11-21-2011, 01:26 PM
I did not see anywhere mentioned if this was a legal demonstration or not? If they did not have a permit and so forth, then they deserved the pepper spray.

Legal? How about this law.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress (http://forum.woodenboat.com/glossary.html#REDRESS) of grievances."

yzer
11-21-2011, 01:27 PM
I see everyone is still obsessing about rhetoric and tactics... and there ain't nobody (with the exception of me, perhaps) talking about the big picture.

What matters is NOT the rhetoric or tactics... but the meaning of the phenomenon, what gave rise to it, and what it means for the country.I disagree. The subject of this thread is a particular incident between protesters and police. I agree that the a discussion of the Occupy movement from a big picture perspective would be interesting but suggest that it would make a good topic for another thread.

Blowtorch
11-21-2011, 01:46 PM
The First Amendment IS their Permit.

Good link http://www.salon.com/2011/11/20/the_roots_of_the_uc_davis_pepper_spraying/
(http://www.salon.com/2011/11/20/the_roots_of_the_uc_davis_pepper_spraying/)

The thing about #Occupy is that these people are willng to stay as long as it takes. That is the Problem for the status quo. But Goverment doesnt get to say, "oh, OK, youve been at this two months and it didn't work so now its time for you to go home." They just dont. Goverment doesnt get to dictate how a protest should or shouldnt happen or how long it gets to go on, as long as its Peaceful.

The Government has forgot about The Consent Of The Governed.

johnw
11-21-2011, 01:47 PM
I've taken the view that the police were trying to remove the protesters, peacefully first, then elevated the use of force in increments.

They could have gone straight to bashing skulls, and there's a slight indication here that somehow that's okay and different.

You know why they never used pepper spray in the 60's?... because they didn't have it.

Now, if we want to discuss if we, Joe public, approve of that measure, we have to accept some level of responsibility.
I think you're overlooking the more obvious path not taken, which was pointed out by the ex-cop I quoted in post #144. The traditional way to remove people who engage in passive resistance is to grab them and physically move them. You don't have to bash skulls or use pepper spray.

yzer
11-21-2011, 02:33 PM
On a lighter note, here's what has evolved out of it--pepper spray in history and art: http://gawker.com/5861431/uc-davis-pepper-spray-cop-is-now-a-meme/gallery/1

...not that this is a laughing matter. Here are some more... http://peppersprayingcop.tumblr.com/

George Jung
11-21-2011, 02:53 PM
While peripheral to this discussion, I've found it quite informative, particularly Blowtorch's and JohnW's comments. You are right, of course.

I really rather expect this is simply going to accelerate in intensity and distribution. Barack Obamas / the Govt.s take on this would be interesting, though

I'm unaware of any comments on the OWS movement by any in that position.

Blowtorch
11-21-2011, 03:06 PM
All in all I think the squabbling over turf is stupid. But the media has NO credibility with #Occupy, or at least the MSM, so people who just get their news from MSM really dont have a good picture of what its about. The MSM mis-reports what #Occupy is about and #Occupy doesnt issue a correction or even address it at all. So people are left thinking its just a bunch of Dreadlocked Rabble who want Free handouts. Which is NOT TRUE. Something like 80% of #Occupiers natonwide have jobs. Compared to like 60% of TPers.

How #Occupy moves forward from here is kind of up in the air but I can tell you the sentment is still strong. Lots of people are Occupying foreclosed homes and as winter comes in they are making themselves useful in the neighborhoods. This is going on just down the street where I live and when it snowed last the Occupyers shoveled the Sidewalks on the whole block.

But I do not understand why the Police are so enraged about this. Its like the nonviolence just pisses em off more. I think its because they dont understand it at all and they dont have a solid enemy to fight so they want to shut it down so they dont have to actually think about what they do and why. But I dont know.

LeeG
11-21-2011, 03:28 PM
I see everyone is still obsessing about rhetoric and tactics... and there ain't nobody (with the exception of me, perhaps) talking about the big picture.

What matters is NOT the rhetoric or tactics... but the meaning of the phenomenon, what gave rise to it, and what it means for the country.

I don't think it means much for the country. Like JohnW posted on #144 it reflects a change in tactics from hands on removal of protesters to application of pain compliance with pepperspray/tazers. Kind of like going into a war with tremendous force protection but come across like storm troopers.

rbgarr
11-21-2011, 04:38 PM
http://ineteconomics.org/blog/inet/robin-wells-we-are-greg-mankiw%E2%80%A6-or-not

Nicholas Carey
11-21-2011, 05:40 PM
I've taken the view that the police were trying to remove the protesters, peacefully first, then elevated the use of force in increments.

UC Davis and the police are going to be paying out some bucks in damages when the dust settles over this. In the 9th Circut, this sort of prophylactic use use of pepper spray is explicitly outlawed. Here's the applicable case law, from Headwaters Forest Defense v. County of Humboldt, et al. (ftp://ftp.resource.org/courts.gov/c/F3/276/276.F3d.1125.98-17250.html), a lawsuit stemming from a series of incidents in the late 1990s where the police were even more egregious in there use of pepper spray against non-violent protesters:


II. Analysis

Under the qualified immunity doctrine, "government officials . . . generally are shielded from liability for civil damages insofar as their conduct does not violate clearly established statutory or constitutional rights of which a reasonable person would have known." Harlow v. Fitzgerald, 457 U.S. 800, 818, 102 S.Ct. 2727, 73 L.Ed.2d 396 (1982) (citations omitted). Prior to the Supreme Court's decision in Saucier v. Katz, we had held that "the inquiry as to whether officers are entitled to qualified immunity for the use of excessive force is the same as the inquiry on the merits of the excessive force claim." Katz v. United States , 194 F.3d 962, 968 (9th Cir. 1999) (citations omitted).

In Saucier, the Supreme Court instructs that these inquiries are distinct. In order to decide whether state officers are entitled to qualified immunity, Saucier instructs that we must first determine whether, "[t]aken in the light most favorable to the party asserting the injury . . . the facts alleged show the officer's conduct violated a constitutional right. " Saucier, 121 S.Ct. at 2156. "[I]f a violation could be made out on a favorable view of the parties' submissions, the next, sequential step is to ask whether the right was clearly established . . . in light of the specific context of the case" such that"it would be clear to a reasonable officer that his conduct was unlawful in the situation he confronted." Id. (citing Wilson v. Layne, 526 U.S. 603, 615, 119 S.Ct. 1692, 143 L.Ed.2d 818 (1999)).

We concluded in our prior opinion that, viewing the evidence in the light most favorable to the protestors, a rational juror could conclude that the use of pepper spray against the protestors constituted excessive force and that Lewis and Philip were liable for the protestors' unconstitutional injury. 240 F.3d at 1199-1209. This analysis is consistent with Saucier's first inquiry: viewing the facts in the light most favorable to the protestors, Lewis and Philip violated the protestors' Fourth Amendment right to be free from excessive force.

Having answered Saucier's first question in the affirmative, we turn to Saucier's second inquiry, and conclude that it would be clear to a reasonable officer that using pepper spray against the protestors was excessive under the circumstances. The Fourth Amendment permits law enforcement officers to use only such force to effect an arrest as is "objectively reasonable" under the circumstances. Graham v. Connor, 490 U.S. 386, 397, 109 S.Ct. 1865, 104 L.Ed.2d 443 (1989) (citations omitted). "[T]he essence of the Graham objective reasonableness analysis" is that " `[t]he force which was applied must be balanced against the need for that force: it is the need for force which is at the heart of the Graham factors.' " Liston v. County of Riverside, 120 F.3d 965, 976 (9th Cir. 1997) (quoting Alexander v. City and County of San Francisco, 29 F.3d 1355, 1367 (9th Cir. 1994)) (emphasis in original). The facts reflect that: (1) the pepper spray was unnecessary to subdue, remove, or arrest the protestors; (2) the officers could safely and quickly remove the protestors, while in "black bears," from protest sites; and (3) the officers could remove the "black bears" with electric grinders in a matter of minutes and without causing pain or injury to the protestors.

Defendants asserted at trial that the protestors' use of "black bears" constituted " `active' resistance to arrest," meriting the use of force. The Eureka Police Department defines "active resistence" as occurring when the"subject is attempting to interfere with the officer's actions by inflicting pain or physical injury to the officer without the use of a weapon or object." 240 F.3d at 1202-3. Characterizing the protestors' activities as "active resistance" is contrary to the facts of the case, viewing them, as we must, in the light most favorable to the protestors: the protestors were sitting peacefully, were easily moved by the police, and did not threaten or harm the officers. In sum, it would be clear to a reasonable officer that it was excessive to use pepper spray against the nonviolent protestors under these circumstances.

Defendants' repeated use of pepper spray was also clearly unreasonable. As we recently concluded, the use of pepper spray "may be reasonable as a general policy to bring an arrestee under control, but in a situation in which an arrestee surrenders and is rendered helpless, any reasonable officer would know that a continued use of the weapon or a refusal without cause to alleviate its harmful effects constitutes excessive force." LaLonde v. County of Riverside, 204 F.3d 947, 961 (9th Cir. 2000) (emphasis supplied). Because the officers had control over the protestors it would have been clear to any reasonable officer that it was unnecessary to use pepper spray to bring them under control, and even less necessary to repeatedly use pepper spray against the protestors when they refused to release from the"black bears." It also would have been clear to any reasonable officer that the manner in which the officers used the pepper spray was unreasonable. Lewis and Philip "authorized full spray blasts of [pepper spray], not just Q-tip applications," despite the fact that the manufacturer's label on the canisters of pepper spray defendants used " `expressly discouraged' spraying [pepper spray] from distances of less than three feet." 240 F.3d at 1195, 1208.

Finally, it would have been clear to any reasonable officer that defendants' refusal to wash out the protestors' eyes with water constituted excessive force under the circumstances. As we noted in LaLonde, -- when determining that the law had been clearly established by a date that is prior to the time the pepper spray was used on the protestors -- "any reasonable officer would know that . . . a refusal without cause to alleviate [pepper spray's] harmful effects constitutes excessive force." LaLonde, 204 F.3d at 961. In two of the protests, officers threatened that they would not provide the protestors with water to wash out their eyes until they released themselves from the "black bears," and in one of the protests, the officers did not provide the protestors with water for over twenty minutes. Spraying the protestors with pepper spray and then allowing them to suffer without providing them water is clearly excessive under the circumstances.

We are not prevented from denying defendants qualified immunity merely because no prior case prohibits the use of the precise force at issue in this case. In the first instance, the circumstances of LaLonde, although not identical to those in this case, are "not distinguishable in a fair way from the facts presented in the case at hand" such that their results should be different. Saucier, 121 S.Ct. at 2157. In addition, regional and state-wide police practice and protocol clearly suggest that using pepper spray against nonviolent protestors is excessive. The law regarding a police officer's use of force against a passive individual was sufficiently clear at the time of the events at issue in this case that the defendants cannot claim qualified immunity on the ground that they made a reasonable mistake of law. See Saucier, 121 S.Ct. at 2158.

Moreover, in requiring that the law put a government officer "on notice that his conduct would be clearly unlawful" before he could be held liable for violating the Constitution, the Supreme Court emphasized that it was not insisting that "courts must have agreed upon the precise formulation of the standard." Id. As we recently noted, a law can be violated "notwithstanding the absence of direct precedent . . . [o]therwise, officers would escape responsibility for the most egregious forms of conduct simply because there was no case on all fours prohibiting that particular manifestation of unconstitutional conduct." Deorle v. Rutherford , 272 F.3d 1272, 1274-75 (9th Cir. 2001) (citation omitted).

Viewing the facts in the light most favorable to the protestors, we conclude that Philip and Lewis are not entitled to qualified immunity because the use of pepper spray on the protestors' eyes and faces was plainly in excess of the force necessary under the circumstances, and no reasonable officer could have concluded otherwise.

Nicholas Carey
11-21-2011, 06:47 PM
Apparently, the product used against these kids, Defense Technology's MK-9 Magnum, is 0.7% capsaicin and the recommended minimum distance for use is 6 feet.

http://www.defense-technology.com/pdfs/specs/MK-9_Aerosol%20Projector%20Rev%2012_10.pdf

http://www.defense-technology.com/images/products/56795_lg.JPG

yzer
11-21-2011, 07:17 PM
I wonder what solution was contained in those tactical super-soakers the police were carrying. They didn't use those during the UCD confrontation.

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c374/yzer1/nastysuper-soaker.png

Here is another article about police use-of-force tactics against passive resistance. This is from Police Chief's Magazine.

http://www.policechiefmagazine.org/magazine/index.cfm?fuseaction=display_arch&article_id=563&issue_id=42005

Chris Coose
11-21-2011, 07:39 PM
My Facebook page is soaked with photoshopped images of the cop.

http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/s320x320/386190_2158046313315_1311211708_1854276_2147166746 _n.jpg

http://a7.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/s320x320/384134_10150408871688954_710123953_8211904_8622432 37_n.jpg

I wonder what kind of a bottom we've got to hit before the government comes out of failure? Politicians will be the last to respond to the intervention due to the characteristics it takes to become a politician.

There is a great scene in the Godfather where Pacino takes a ride down to Cuba and witnesses a roadside assassination and knows Cuba is in headed to capitalist failure. We could use about 500 hundred legislators to see the same thing but this only happens in the movies.

brad9798
11-21-2011, 07:45 PM
What gave rise to it, Norman ... well, that is nothing like what is really going on ... once again, a good cause gets bastardized by folks just looking to make a scene ... be bums ... litter ... use drugs, etc.

The REAL protestors have become too scared ... most of them, anyway, of what these caustic sites have become ...

yzer
11-21-2011, 07:49 PM
Lt. Pike has become a meme.|:)

Chris Coose
11-21-2011, 07:54 PM
The REAL protestors have become too scared ... most of them, anyway, of what these caustic sites have become ...

In Portland with winter coming on the Occupy site continues to grow in the number of tents (60 or more maybe). I think the population remains steady and small in numbers. Most real protestors are continuing to go about their lives and speaking for myself, this symbol in the park represents something beyond the silence that has allowed the corruption of our government.
I am lookig forward to a large spring renewal. I expect massive.

Nicholas Carey
11-21-2011, 08:07 PM
Yes, Atlantic Monthly's Alexis Madrigal has an interesting analysis, Why I Feel Bad for the Pepper-Spraying Policeman, Lt. John Pike (http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2011/11/why-i-feel-bad-for-the-pepper-spraying-policeman-lt-john-pike/248772/), arguing that Lt John Pike (who happens to drive a desk in the UC Davis PD's Support Services division as the Records Unit manager -- @ $116,000 per year!) is the endpoint of the system that shaped him.

It doesn't help that, according to an interview with a witness, "Our line that they pepper-sprayed was ... one-person-deep. One of the officers began to remove us physically without the use of weapons. And Liutenant John Pike ordered them to stop, raising his pepper can and saying ... 'Leave them. I want to spray these kids.'" That will likely sink him, especially if one of the gaziliion video recordings picked up that little exchange.

http://vimeo.com/32389739

http://vimeo.com/32389739

It doesn't help either that he looks like a cartoon caricature of the sterotypical lazy, overweight, doughnut-loving corrupt cop as portrayed in Smokey & The Bandit and any number of other movies and TV shows.

http://cdn.theatlantic.com/static/mt/assets/science/192897-us-davis-police-lt-john-pike-dousing-seated-students-with-pepper-spray.jpg

LeeG
11-21-2011, 08:57 PM
Lt. Pike has become a meme.|:)

bizarre, and comforting.

brad9798
11-21-2011, 09:49 PM
All I can speak for is the clowns I ran into ...

Do NOT get me wrong, I hope this DOES make a difference ... but not so much, is it going to make a diff. in STL! :(

CWSmith
11-21-2011, 10:17 PM
I see everyone is still obsessing about rhetoric and tactics... and there ain't nobody (with the exception of me, perhaps) talking about the big picture.

What matters is NOT the rhetoric or tactics... but the meaning of the phenomenon, what gave rise to it, and what it means for the country.

What big picture? You mean that the authority at a public institution chose to attack nonviolent protestors because they feared their power was somehow threatened? Do you mean the collapse of social values and priorities learned the hard way 50 years ago and now set aside by a society that once again values money and power above discourse and democracy? Or, are you simply refering to the callous manner that a police officer was permitted to attack nonviolent protestors who never raised a hand to the police, allowing the police to pass back and forth, even allowing the police to step over them? Don't you know they deserve it for defying the choices made by politicians who are bought and paid for by the 1%?

There are police professionals criticizing the use of pepper spray in this manner.

Lew Barrett
11-21-2011, 10:29 PM
I just watched the 8 minute video again, and I have to say; the students were mighty impressive. I'll say it again. I am always heartened when the young people get involved. Anybody who hasn't watched the whole video front to back really owes it to themselves to do so. The students won this day, no doubt about it. It made me proud of them. They were powerful in the face of a lot of potential intimidation.
It only took them a few minutes to figure out exactly how to deal with the situation, and once they did, it is pretty clear that the police had lost the initiative. Never did anyone threaten a cop. It was all about gaining moral authority.
Course, they were just campus cops.

Whose quad?
Our quad.
Shame on you.
You can go.


Damn straight. It's their university.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmJmmnMkuEM&feature=share.

Norman, not to gang up on you, but I had the same sense about your post as Yzer and CW.

John of Phoenix
11-21-2011, 10:42 PM
"Lt Meme" steps over the line of seated protesters from behind and later claims the police were surrounded. I can't wait to hear that guy in court.

That guy was toast loooong before he ever picked up that can of spray. What a dud.

Bobcat
11-21-2011, 10:42 PM
Thanks for posting that, Lew; I had not seen that yet in its entirety. I agree that the students were impressive and working together nonviolently.

The protests now are different than the ones in the 1950's and 1960's in that so many people have cameras and what they recorded goes out uncensored to the Internet.

CWSmith
11-21-2011, 10:44 PM
What is lacking here is proportional response.

I watch the video and I keep wondering what essential building the students are blocking by their sitdown. I can't see it. I wonder what their protest is denying to others? If they are not impeding others from accessing their education, then I see no reason to break up the demonstration at all.

If I break the law, I deserve to be arrested. If I enter into nonviolent protest, perhaps it is my right to be arrested. I do not deserve to be pepper sprayed before I am arrested. That's just one group with power demonstrating that power over another and that is, in my opinion, a violent violation of the law.

For all the world I would like to know what is going through the mind of that cop as he shows off the spray and then uses it to attack nonviolent protestors. Do you think he's proud of himself? Does he feel important? He's a tool.

Lew Barrett
11-21-2011, 10:50 PM
"Lt Meme" steps over the line of seated protesters from behind and later claims the police were surrounded. I can't wait to hear that guy in court.

That guy was toast loooong before he ever picked up that can of spray. What a dud.

Towards they end, one of the kids shouts: "None of you will get your pensions." Certainly could be the case for Meme. I didn't sense that all the police were on the same page with him, but that's just reading into the body language. As it progresses, the cops look considerably more befuddled and intimidated than the students do.

They need to go after the Chancellor, but she'll probably get off due to the fog of war.


Thanks for posting that, Lew; I had not seen that yet in its entirety. I agree that the students were impressive and working together nonviolently.

The protests now are different than the ones in the 1950's and 1960's in that some many people have cameras and what they recorded goes out uncensored to the Internet.

It's amazing, isn't it, how some of us will look at that and see one thing, while others may look at it and get an entirely different message. Just amazing how that works.

brad9798
11-21-2011, 11:32 PM
Lew ... you are an old hippy! :D

johnw
11-22-2011, 12:00 AM
Thanks for posting that, Lew. It's incredible that they managed to stay non-violent throughout, and really great. Usually, the state has a near-monopoly on violence, and yet someone wants the glory and catharsis they thing violence will bring.

The handbook for a lot of these protests is Gene Sharp's book, From Dictatorship to Democracy, by the way.

http://www.aeinstein.org/organizations/org/FDTD.pdf

http://booksellersvsbestsellers.blogspot.com/2011/02/prof-gene-sharp-and-nonviolent-action.html

Chris Coose
11-22-2011, 07:29 AM
http://a5.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/378092_10150475243320452_750900451_10489269_455196 768_n.jpg

Lew Barrett
11-22-2011, 11:31 AM
Lew ... you are an old hippy! :D

No lie that! It was educational, fun and actually a hopeful time, even living through the big threats of nuclear war (and are they really any less today?). Also, I had more luck with women back then.....
If you weren't a hippy (at least on the weekends.....) back then Brad,you were not part of the action, and you certainly weren't getting as much either!

I think we have given our kids, the kids of the hippies as it were, a time with less hope and greater worry. In that sense, the hippies failed in the mission. I take my share of responsibility for that.

Dr. Arthur Trollingson
11-23-2011, 01:42 AM
For all the world I would like to know what is going through the mind of that cop as he shows off the spray and then uses it to attack nonviolent protestors. Do you think he's proud of himself? Does he feel important? He's a tool.

The man is a highly paid officer who had graduated from the mean streets to a desk and a 115k/yr salary. I'm shocked that you would think so little of him. He saw another officer getting ready to inflict harm on the students by physically removing them and had the guts to stop the torture. "Wait, I want to spray these kids" he said. There's nothing prideful or self important in that. But you are correct, he is a tool. A tool for justice.

yzer
11-23-2011, 01:58 AM
Unfortunately, there is nothing to suggest that Lt. Pike made the command decision to spray the protesters. Lt. Pike was very busy on the radio for several minutes prior to pulling out the MK-9, agitating the cans in a very public way and eventually spraying the students. I suspect recorded communications between Lt. Pike, UCD Police HQ (and perhaps UCD Administration) will figure prominently in the investigation of this incident.

johnw
11-23-2011, 03:01 AM
http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2011/11/funny-pictures-memecats-one-percent-cat-has-had-enough.jpg

Durnik
11-23-2011, 12:00 PM
Unfortunately, there is nothing to suggest that Lt. Pike made the command decision to spray the protesters. Lt. Pike was very busy on the radio for several minutes prior to pulling out the MK-9, agitating the cans in a very public way and eventually spraying the students. I suspect recorded communications between Lt. Pike, UCD Police HQ (and perhaps UCD Administration) will figure prominently in the investigation of this incident.

Not to disagree,

However, when I was in the service we were told that while we _had_ to obey a direct order, we were also responsible for our actions should we obey an illegal or wrong order.. The _real_ Catch 22.. This seems to be the case here.. 'Following Orders' is _not_ an excuse. The order giver, and the order executor, are both wrong..

Those who can make us believe absurdities can make us commit atrocities..

They did.. & he did..

I would add that while a weapon for immediate self defense is understandable.. a weapon for aggression to force a point is either simple assault.. or terrorism.. & is wrong.

enjoy
bobby

CWSmith
11-23-2011, 01:56 PM
The man is a highly paid officer who had graduated from the mean streets to a desk and a 115k/yr salary. I'm shocked that you would think so little of him. He saw another officer getting ready to inflict harm on the students by physically removing them and had the guts to stop the torture. "Wait, I want to spray these kids" he said. There's nothing prideful or self important in that. But you are correct, he is a tool. A tool for justice.

Arthur, you really should shorten your name - Troll says it all.

Dr. Arthur Trollingson
11-23-2011, 07:14 PM
Arthur, you really should shorten your name - Troll says it all.

What? Did I stutter, or misrepresent something? I'm bringing cold scientific method to the masses here, nothing more.

Pike is a $115k/yr officer of the law who drives a desk. Fact.

He stopped physical abuse of students by spraying them instead. Fact.
http://occupyamerica.crooksandliars.com/diane-sweet/ucdavis-student-pepper-spraying-office
The students themselves commend his protection efforts in that 1:30 video. Watch and learn.

Pike reached out on behalf of the law books and enforced the "no blocking sidewalks ordinance." That makes him a tool for justice. Fact.

See that, CW? 3 for 3. Problem?

CWSmith
11-23-2011, 07:53 PM
What? Did I stutter, or misrepresent something? I'm bringing cold scientific method to the masses here, nothing more.

Pike is a $115k/yr officer of the law who drives a desk. Fact.

He stopped physical abuse of students by spraying them instead. Fact.
http://occupyamerica.crooksandliars.com/diane-sweet/ucdavis-student-pepper-spraying-office
The students themselves commend his protection efforts in that 1:30 video. Watch and learn.

Pike reached out on behalf of the law books and enforced the "no blocking sidewalks ordinance." That makes him a tool for justice. Fact.

See that, CW? 3 for 3. Problem?

Proportional response. You don't pepper spray someone for sitting on the sidewalk. I deny the students were in danger, but they might have been arrested. If so, the police were obligated to do so without violence. If you believe this was an appropriate response, then I can only hope it happens to you (when the meter runs out on your parking spot, when you are driving slowly in the left hand lane, when something falls from your car and you are accused of littering, or when you just piss off a cop by looking at him the wrong way.

I've read your posts for over a year and I have not ever found one spark of humanity in you. You are a Troll.

Blowtorch
11-23-2011, 08:10 PM
He is a Troll for Freedom and Justice and Apple Pie and truthiness!!

Dr. Arthur Trollingson
11-23-2011, 08:16 PM
I've read your posts for over a year and I have not ever found one spark of humanity in you. [outrageous insult removed]

I would certainly hope not. Your species is screwed up. Thankfully I am just a monkey scientist with a keyboard.

Durnik
11-23-2011, 08:52 PM
You don't pepper spray someone for sitting on the sidewalk.

Actually, cops have been exonerated for pepper spraying innocent by-standers/passers-by..


If so, the police were obligated to do so without violence

According to the police, themselves, this is untrue. The pepper spray is to make them tractable.. don't want any poor officers of the law getting hurt, eh? You do realize that in the 21st century in the good old U.S. of A., police are more important than mere citizens, right? It is our duty to suffer that they may be safe..

You really should re-read the, ahmm, 'good' Dr.'s posts.. in context..

or not, your choice, but you're missing some good.. analytical observations.. Perhaps, one could say he is a Just troll.. ;-)

enjoy
bobby

CWSmith
11-24-2011, 12:11 AM
Perhaps, one could say he is a Just troll.. ;-)

enjoy
bobby

Honestly, I don't enjoy resorting to name calling and I am not proud that I did it. That said, when I checked the spelling of "troll" online I was reminded that it has at least 2 meanings: It is a sort of small monster at war with humanity and it's the act of making remarks designed to insight replies. Both would seem to describe his behavior. I have never seen Arthur go against the side of money, the side of the corporation, or the side of the police and powerful even to the point that he justifies the assualt of teenagers who's only crime is sitting on the sidewalk apparently quite far from any buildings and inhibiting no one's right to access. Where is the compassion? If it's sarcasm, he needs to practice and refine his craft.

Dr. Arthur Trollingson
11-24-2011, 01:49 AM
I think I see the problem here, CW. You have trouble discerning the intentions behind the words being tapped out on some keyboard elsewhere on this world wide web. The fact that some sentient being on this pale blue dot doesn't reach the same conclusions as you after evaluating the same facts and circumstances troubles your mind.

I'll now offer some free doctoral level education: You'd do well to evaluate what you read on the internet independent of bias. You might find that you occasionally agree with those you usually disagree with, and vice-versa . Your approval or disapproval matters little here considering the fact that you've got another choice to make. You can respond, or not. You can nod approvingly, basking in the knowledge that another internet commenter thinks like you, or you can shake your head in disgust at perceived ignorance. You can post a comment to voice approval or expand on a point to let the world know that your right-thinking has been validated while sharing some wisdom, or you can chose to debate a point of fact, perhaps challenging and changing opinions along the way. There's no wrong response, however you should know that any resulting frustration is entirely self-inflicted.

You should also know that only dirty hippies ask questions like "Where's the compassion." So, unless you quit sounding like the OWS terrorizers, I'm going to have to forward your username to DHS for possible monitoring by the NSA. It's my duty as a True Patriot. No offense.

Meli
11-24-2011, 02:25 AM
Troll is a little harsh.
World weary, possum stirring, cynical nihilist perhaps :D

johnw
11-24-2011, 02:38 AM
Arthur, Joe Lieberman is doing his best to enlist Google in your crusade against terrists. However, this:


I'll now offer some free doctoral level education: You'd do well to evaluate what you read on the internet independent of bias.
shows that your education is sadly lacking in the sort of neo-Marxist critical theory post-structural analysis that the conservatives are now starting to adopt. Both Marxists and conservatives have determined to their satisfaction that there is no objectivity, only which side you're on.

Of course, your degrees are all in the arts of science, so you think just because every time you put the same chemicals together they blow up and you get a new lab, that means the world is the same sort of real no matter what we think about it, but the folks who run our politics know that they can create their own reality. Right now, I'm working on creating a reality in which Jennifer Lopez and I are making a Fiat commercial in which we demonstrate the possibility of sex in a Fiat 500.

Granted, I wish she'd managed to get a contract to promote something roomier, but the company clearly needs to demonstrate that the car is useful for something, since it's not like you can drive it all the time. Here's what happened when they were filming one of the ads.

http://i.cdn.turner.com/dr/teg/tsg/release/sites/default/files/assets/1edmoralesjlo.jpg

Clearly, they need to promote this car as a form of conspicuous consumption, the car you buy when you don't really need a car. It's a car for the 1%!

Chris Coose
11-24-2011, 06:55 AM
A monkey with a PhD is as bright as the monkey who sits in the zoo cage playing with himself all day.

Phillip Allen
11-24-2011, 07:46 AM
A monkey with a PhD is as bright as the monkey who sits in the zoo cage playing with himself all day.

I never saw you tell lj that

John of Phoenix
11-24-2011, 07:54 AM
That's quite a fascination you have there. You should ponder what drives it.
★★★
Some of you guys need to have your sarcasm meters calibrated.

McMike
11-24-2011, 08:28 AM
That's quite a fascination you have there. You should ponder what drives it.
★★★
Some of you guys need to have your sarcasm meters calibrated.


Big time!

Phillip Allen
11-24-2011, 09:37 AM
Big time!

could it be lj himself who helped you to your conclusion?... sort of spoon-fed it to you?... naw... he would never do that!

Durnik
11-24-2011, 11:40 AM
Honestly, I don't enjoy resorting to name calling and I am not proud that I did it. That said, when I checked the spelling of "troll" online I was reminded that it has at least 2 meanings: It is a sort of small monster at war with humanity and it's the act of making remarks designed to insight replies. Both would seem to describe his behavior. I have never seen Arthur go against the side of money, the side of the corporation, or the side of the police and powerful even to the point that he justifies the assualt of teenagers who's only crime is sitting on the sidewalk apparently quite far from any buildings and inhibiting no one's right to access. Where is the compassion? If it's sarcasm, he needs to practice and refine his craft.

I think if you peruse the remarks of D.A.T. with an eye toward the bent, you will find that he feels much as you do about the events in question.

Imagine, if you will, a thinking/feeling being, who perceives that most of the world it finds himself cast upon indulges themselves in violent, fantasmagorical imaginings on the meanings of the reality that surrounds them. A world where these inhabitants react in fear & violence toward any who pull aside the curtains of their fantasies.. One might understand that sarcastic 'understanding' remarks will cause, or at least 'encourage', the inmates to simply grunt & groan as they knuckle along while, hopefully, those also aware of the irrationality of the whole, will see the genius in the sham..

or, he's simply a troll..


If it's sarcasm, he needs to practice and refine his craft.

keeping in mind the sarcasm, if indeed it is that, is mainly directed at those who tend to miss that which is not pounded into their seemingly thick skulls.. I say, chalk this experience up to a lack of an adequate amount of the elixir of the gods.. Coffee.. (tea.. $MMSoC*.. ;-))

BTW, a possible synonym for sarcasm is 'irreverent'.. Just sayin'..

enjoy
bobby

* - $MOOD_MODIFYING_SUBSTANCE__OF_CHOICE

Durnik
11-24-2011, 11:53 AM
A monkey with a PhD is as bright as the monkey who sits in the zoo cage playing with himself all day.

as opposed to all the monkeys who sit in the ethereal cage of the internet mentally masturbating all day.. ;-)

But, I quite agree.. a PhD changes not a wit the brightness of a being.. it simply is a mark of the acceptance of the being by a group with spare sheets of en-printed paper to pass around..

Happy Turkey Day, everyone! ;-) It's a day to give thanks (as opposed to all the other days to give thanks.. ;-)) - Thanks, Wooden Boat, for this place where inquiring (& otherwise) minds can gather to toss the.. bologna.. ;-)

enjoy
bobby

McMike
11-24-2011, 12:10 PM
could it be lj himself who helped you to your conclusion?... sort of spoon-fed it to you?... naw... he would never do that!

What are you talking about?

Lew Barrett
11-24-2011, 01:32 PM
That's quite a fascination you have there. You should ponder what drives it.
★★★
Some of you guys need to have your sarcasm meters calibrated.


Big time!



I think of the Doctor as the (and it is a bit a stretch, seeing as he has presumably neither the wealth, nor the success)
Stephen Colbert of The Bilge. Of course, I could be wrong about the wealth part, but no way has he the success or he would not have the time to be here!

Conservatives Claim Colbert (http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/stephen-colbert-occupy-wall-street-256087)

You are a naughty, naughty man, Arthur!

johnw
11-24-2011, 01:48 PM
That's quite a fascination you have there. You should ponder what drives it.
★★★
Some of you guys need to have your sarcasm meters calibrated.

Perhaps it's a lack of irony in their diet.

TomF
11-24-2011, 01:48 PM
...But, I quite agree.. a PhD changes not a wit the brightness of a being.. it simply is a mark of the acceptance of the being by a group with spare sheets of en-printed paper to pass around.....And in the humanities and social sciences at least, as much as anything it shows dogged bloody-mindedness. If you're bright enough to get into grad school, you're bright enough to write an acceptable thesis. Whether you've got what it takes to grind out the book, in all its interminable revisions and details, is quite a different (and admirable) thing. Most PhDs I know were heartily sick of their thesis topics by the time the last revisions were done, but did them anyway; in my day, only about a third of PhD candidates completed.

FWIW, I didn't have what I needed to complete it at the time ... might have it by now...

johnw
11-24-2011, 02:01 PM
And in the humanities and social sciences at least, as much as anything it shows dogged bloody-mindedness. If you're bright enough to get into grad school, you're bright enough to write an acceptable thesis. Whether you've got what it takes to grind out the book, in all its interminable revisions and details, is quite a different (and admirable) thing. Most PhDs I know were heartily sick of their thesis topics by the time the last revisions were done, but did them anyway; in my day, only about a third of PhD candidates completed.

FWIW, I didn't have what I needed to complete it at the time ... might have it by now...I didn't find writing a master's thesis that hard, although I certainly had had enough of grad school by the time I finished it and didn't go on to get the Piled Higher and Deeper degree.

I've always been astonished at how many people go through a PhD program and never finish the dissertation. Of course, it used to be possible to get a teaching position while ABD, but really, it's only about four or five times the work of your comprehensive exams, if they are on the scale mine were. Would you really be satisfied with leaving that undone? After all, if you built a boat, would you leave off the rail cap and never even rig the mizzen?

TomF
11-24-2011, 02:38 PM
By the time I got well into my dissertation, I'd become a dad twice, was working in a responsible job to support the little sods, and no longer wanted to teach. The market for PhDs in my discipline (broadly defined) was only about 5-6/year, anywhere in Canada, and completing it wouldn't have influenced recruitment for the work I did (and do).

So when the PhD didn't look like it would advance any career goals I still had (and sure as shootin', it didn't advance my wife's ... who completed her own 3rd Degree), I cut my losses. Yeah, I'm sorry to not have it, but then there are always a few regrets about other roads not taken too. Singing, cello, sailing. No regrets about the choices I did make though - in favour of kids and the marriage.

johnw
11-24-2011, 02:55 PM
Kids will do that, Tom. My dad dropped out of grad school when his second child was born.

Phillip Allen
11-24-2011, 04:30 PM
What are you talking about?

Ooooh, good evasive answer

johnw
11-24-2011, 07:51 PM
Ooooh, good evasive answerThis one was even better.

Barry
11-24-2011, 07:56 PM
I like the Doctor: He done cured me!!!

http://youtu.be/Szq-2v3MCew

Arizona Bay
11-24-2011, 08:06 PM
On a lighter note... :D

http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc125/nirgal2/maceparade.jpg

Mace(ies) TG Day Parade?

Life is a mystery, with unlimited opportunities to create it any way we want it to be... why do so many of us make it into something so serious and and dramatic?

“The trick is in what one emphasizes. We either make ourselves miserable, or we make ourselves happy. The amount of work is the same.”

Be grateful for every moment!
Happy Thanksgiving!

George Jung
11-24-2011, 09:30 PM
Lessee....



Dr. Arthur Trollingson is to ?????

as

David G is to bobbys


I suspect someone is promoting his/her alterego here.

Any ideas??

I'd suggest either JohnW or CWSmith.

But I could be wrong.

johnw
11-24-2011, 09:53 PM
My lips are sealed, because I'd really like people to think I'm clever enough to prank the forum with Dr. Arthur Trollington.

PeterSibley
11-24-2011, 10:02 PM
I have seen the error of my ways in reference to DAT, his sarcasm is so well acted that I took him for that which his is not .


I think if you peruse the remarks of D.A.T. with an eye toward the bent, you will find that he feels much as you do about the events in question.

Imagine, if you will, a thinking/feeling being, who perceives that most of the world it finds himself cast upon indulges themselves in violent, fantasmagorical imaginings on the meanings of the reality that surrounds them. A world where these inhabitants react in fear & violence toward any who pull aside the curtains of their fantasies.. One might understand that sarcastic 'understanding' remarks will cause, or at least 'encourage', the inmates to simply grunt & groan as they knuckle along while, hopefully, those also aware of the irrationality of the whole, will see the genius in the sham..

or, he's simply a troll..



keeping in mind the sarcasm, if indeed it is that, is mainly directed at those who tend to miss that which is not pounded into their seemingly thick skulls.. I say, chalk this experience up to a lack of an adequate amount of the elixir of the gods.. Coffee.. (tea.. $MMSoC*.. ;-))

BTW, a possible synonym for sarcasm is 'irreverent'.. Just sayin'..

enjoy
bobby

* - $MOOD_MODIFYING_SUBSTANCE__OF_CHOICE

Dr. Arthur Trollingson
11-24-2011, 10:48 PM
Enough about me, folks. Let's get back on topic. John stumbled upon the only sensible solution to this OWS mess. We need to set up an artistic science experiment that doubles as a plot to a buddy comedy screenplay. It will either be a spectacular success, or it will explode. There's only one way to find out.

We'll put Ted Rall, Bill Clinton, Rush Limbaugh, Jennifer Lopez and Lt. Pike in a Fiat 500 and have them attempt to drive from Zuccotti Park to Portland OR. It will be a cramped ride. Along the way the stereo will alternate between Noam Chomsky's Manufacturing Consent lecture and a selection of bailout speeches by GW Bush. Officer Pike will be given a decibel meter with strict instructions to pepper spray the test subjects in the face if they raise their voices above 70db. I'm not quite sure what this experiment will prove, but Bill and Jennifer will probably solve the sexytimes in a Fiat problem along the way if Bill doesn't break a hip. If they make it to Portland, they just might have solved the issues OWS has raised by the time they arrive.

I'll put my team of grad students to work on this ASAP.

johnw
11-24-2011, 11:24 PM
If they drive from New York to Portland in a Fiat, the film crew is traveling in a tow truck just in case the inevitable happens.

Barry
11-24-2011, 11:32 PM
Enough about me, folks. Let's get back on topic. John stumbled upon the only sensible solution to this OWS mess. We need to set up an artistic science experiment that doubles as a plot to a buddy comedy screenplay. It will either be a spectacular success, or it will explode. There's only one way to find out.

We'll put Ted Rall, Bill Clinton, Rush Limbaugh, Jennifer Lopez and Lt. Pike in a Fiat 500 and have them attempt to drive from Zuccotti Park to Portland OR. It will be a cramped ride. Along the way the stereo will alternate between Noam Chomsky's Manufacturing Consent lecture and a selection of bailout speeches by GW Bush. Officer Pike will be given a decibel meter with strict instructions to pepper spray the test subjects in the face if they raise their voices above 70db. I'm not quite sure what this experiment will prove, but Bill and Jennifer will probably solve the sexytimes in a Fiat problem along the way if Bill doesn't break a hip. If they make it to Portland, they just might have solved the issues OWS has raised by the time they arrive.

I'll put my team of grad students to work on this ASAP.

Been there, done that, but it was a Fiat 128 wagon(Giallo Limon) with a a leaky head gasket. http://www.autoviva.com/img/photos/330/fiat_128_station_wagon_large_37330.jpg

johnw
11-25-2011, 12:05 AM
For some reason, my father's Fiat 128 was constantly needing front end alignments. Great car to drive, not a great car to own.

Barry
11-25-2011, 12:43 AM
Fix it Again Tony.
Ergonomically perfect. The mechanics, "not so good".

sharps4590
11-27-2011, 04:21 PM
Life isn't fair. Neither fairness nor morality can be legislated. Get over it and go to work.

CWSmith
11-27-2011, 04:42 PM
I think I see the problem here, CW. You have trouble discerning the intentions behind the words being tapped out on some keyboard elsewhere on this world wide web. The fact that some sentient being on this pale blue dot doesn't reach the same conclusions as you after evaluating the same facts and circumstances troubles your mind.

I'll now offer some free doctoral level education: You'd do well to evaluate what you read on the internet independent of bias. You might find that you occasionally agree with those you usually disagree with, and vice-versa . Your approval or disapproval matters little here considering the fact that you've got another choice to make. You can respond, or not. You can nod approvingly, basking in the knowledge that another internet commenter thinks like you, or you can shake your head in disgust at perceived ignorance. You can post a comment to voice approval or expand on a point to let the world know that your right-thinking has been validated while sharing some wisdom, or you can chose to debate a point of fact, perhaps challenging and changing opinions along the way. There's no wrong response, however you should know that any resulting frustration is entirely self-inflicted.

You should also know that only dirty hippies ask questions like "Where's the compassion." So, unless you quit sounding like the OWS terrorizers, I'm going to have to forward your username to DHS for possible monitoring by the NSA. It's my duty as a True Patriot. No offense.

Oh, please do, Dr. Call them. It seems that every time I turn around to a knock on my office door its another FBI agent doing a security check on someone and asking me if they can be trusted with nuclear secrets. I'd love to be bothered just a little less. Don't you hate it when the feds come to you with such questions?

As for the rest, I have plenty of friends with whom I disgree. Debate has never been a problem for me. My problem is that I have never seen even one glimmer of humanity within any of your posts and that convinces me that the worth of your words is not great.

Durnik
11-27-2011, 06:04 PM
Life isn't fair. Neither fairness nor morality can be legislated. Get over it and go to work.

There is no right way to do a wrong thing and
John 3:16


"Jesus answered, If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.'" Matthew 19:21

"The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because He has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to release the oppressed." Luke 4:18

"Sell your possessions and give to the poor. Provide purses for yourselves that will not wear out, a treasure in heaven that will not be exhausted, where no thief comes near and no moth destroys." Luke 12:33

"But when you give a banquet, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, the blind." Luke 14:13

"When Jesus heard this, he said to him, You still lack one thing. Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.'" Luke 18:22


I like this one..

"Beware of the teachers of the law . . . They devour your widows' houses . . . Such men will be punished severely." Luke 20:46-47

"Suppose a man comes into your meeting wearing a gold ring and fine clothes, and a poor man in shabby clothes also comes in. If you show special attention to the man wearing fine clothes and say, 'Here's a good seat for you,' but say to the poor man, 'You stand there' or 'Sit on the floor by my feet,' have you not discriminated among yourselves and becomes judges with evil thoughts? Listen, my dear brothers: Has not God chosen those who are poor in the eyes of the world to be rich in faith and to inherit the kingdom He promised those who love Him? But you have insulted the poor. Is it not the rich who are exploiting you? Are they not the ones who are dragging you into court?" James 2:2-6

And last, but esp. in light of your comment, certainly not least,

"If anyone has material possessions and sees his brother in need but has no pity on him, how can the love of God be in him? Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and in truth." 1 John 3:17-18

enjoy
bobby

Keith Wilson
11-27-2011, 06:54 PM
Neither fairness nor morality can be legislated. Utter nonsense. Both most certainly can be legislated to some degree. The basis of most of our laws is what we believe to be fair and moral. We think theft, murder and rape are wrong, therefore we make laws prohibiting them. Reasonable people may differ about the proper balance between equality and freedom, but the idea that the inequalities of capitalism are some sort of law of nature is spectacularly mistaken. Economic systems are a human invention, they require laws to function, and we get to decide the best way to structure those laws. Without the protection of law, your property belongs to whoever is strong or ruthless enough to take it from you. Life isn't fair. Get over it.

CWSmith
11-27-2011, 07:08 PM
Bobby and Keith, I genuinely admire both your views and the way you express yourselves. Good on ya'.

Dr. Arthur Trollingson
11-27-2011, 10:19 PM
On a lighter note, here's what has evolved out of it--pepper spray in history and art: http://gawker.com/5861431/uc-davis-pepper-spray-cop-is-now-a-meme/gallery/1

...not that this is a laughing matter.

Not all of the art is funny MAM. Some of it is just so good it makes me tear up a little, 'cuz of the patriotism and all...

http://i.imgur.com/Mo6iV.jpg

perldog007
11-27-2011, 10:53 PM
The violence of the protesters was shocking. Fancy sitting down like that and not moving for several minutes!

I'm assuming you have never been in a place or disposition which attracted unpleasant attention from the Bobbies? Try pulling that sit in stunt in the lobby of Grosvenor House or Burberry's and get back to me.

We have the right to peaceably assemble for lawful protest. Stick to that and most of the time, everything is everything. Infringe, get violated.

Believe it or not, officer spraycan knew what he was doing. You can't carry and use that stuff without being certified, which entails a good dousing so you know what it feels like.

O/C spray was the most humane way to break up that "dope ring". Start manhandling folks when they are in a posture to resist and they likely will. Get their attention, inspire some cooperation and it's safer for all involved. Including the spoiled brats who really thought they could do whatever they wanted to wherever.

I can sit down and block a walkway, as long as it's on my property or I have permission from the deed holder. Or in public if such is legal in that venue. Other than that, I plant myself where I don't belong and refuse to move I expect to re-live my own o/c spray qualification class.

The left media has all the progressives shook, ain't no such thing as half legal crooks. Those idiots put Ofc. Spraycan in a position where the poor slob had to do his job to make the next Subaru payment. He did so.

Now if they were legal and they got assaulted then all this pantie soaking would be justified. You can't rob a bank, shoot the guard and claim self defense. Something you expect college students to intuitively grasp, as it's so bleeding obvious.

CWSmith
11-28-2011, 12:56 PM
I'm assuming you have never been in a place or disposition which attracted unpleasant attention from the Bobbies? Try pulling that sit in stunt in the lobby of Grosvenor House or Burberry's and get back to me.

We have the right to peaceably assemble for lawful protest. Stick to that and most of the time, everything is everything. Infringe, get violated.


Isn't that really the point? They weren't in a lobby and there weren't impeding anyone's access to a building. They were peaceful and nonviolent. So where is the just cause behind the officer's actions? What required it?

Chris Coose
11-29-2011, 12:30 PM
http://a3.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/s320x320/384315_313474742015319_205344452828349_1197876_153 2249720_n.jpg

Chris Coose
11-29-2011, 12:39 PM
Those idiots put Ofc. Spraycan in a position where the poor slob had to do his job to make the next Subaru payment. He did so.


Poor guy. Cops are now releaved of responsibility to their training and may now act on their own according to the circumstances the bad guys put them in?
Those idiots put this guy no place. He lost his job all on his own.

You don't give cops much credit.