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Phillip Allen
11-18-2011, 08:48 AM
here is an article that illistrates my point.

http://www.4029tv.com/news/29802385/detail.html

Every few years, some politicians will strive to have the f&g funds put into the general fund... always promising that the move will make f%g stronger... don't believe it. It is for the purpose of inhancing THEIR revenues and the folks in Arkansas got that message back in the 60's (states like Colorado did it and then turned it over to the tourism bunch and sold off their game to the higher bidders... just another form of market hunting)

SamSam
11-18-2011, 09:44 AM
Hmmm. What is your point and how a shortened turkey season illustrate it?

wardd
11-18-2011, 09:47 AM
Hmmm. What is your point and how a shortened turkey season illustrate it?

yea?

Phillip Allen
11-18-2011, 11:25 AM
Hmmm. What is your point and how a shortened turkey season illustrate it?

too simple?

the f&g works for the hunter and the hunter works for the f&g... mostly... hunters are much more interested in the enviorment than one might think... the biologests hired (however indirectly) by the hunters recomended the shortened season... not a buerocrat

how could that not be obvious or were you joking?

Ian McColgin
11-18-2011, 12:11 PM
What's not obvious is how this could be contsrued as self-regulation. It's actually an example of responsible hunters joining with and utilizing good wildlife management and the government's enforcement power to regulate those hunters who cannot regulate themselves. Were hunters truely self-regulating we would not need such defined seasons as they would all in their own self-interest behave as the responsible hunters without a nanny state telling them when to go out and when to stop.

David W Pratt
11-18-2011, 01:26 PM
Two words: passenger pigeon.

Ian McColgin
11-18-2011, 01:42 PM
Actually, based entirely on what Phillip reported, this is an excellent example of superb governmental regulation over-coming the economic model called "The Tragedy of the Commons." In that example, from before England's rather horrible enclosures, farmers kept their sheep and cattle on common pastures. Since it was in the individual farmer's interest to raise as many as possible, it was possible if all farmers were equally able to expand their herds for the total number grazing to exceed the capacity of the land. Yet it was not in the individual interest of any farmer to decrease his herd.

In Phillip's excellent example, it's not really in the interest of any individual hunter to regulate his bag. Some might exercise self control but as a mass if there are enough hunters with no limits the turkeys are toast. In this case the responsible part of the hunting community together with the responsive governmental officials took the time to develop the knowledge for a good management plan which the state had the power to implement, thus overcoming the Tragedy of the Commons for Arkansas turkey hunters.

Thank you Phillip for sharing an example of how government should work.

Phillip Allen
11-18-2011, 03:16 PM
Actually, based entirely on what Phillip reported, this is an excellent example of superb governmental regulation over-coming the economic model called "The Tragedy of the Commons." In that example, from before England's rather horrible enclosures, farmers kept their sheep and cattle on common pastures. Since it was in the individual farmer's interest to raise as many as possible, it was possible if all farmers were equally able to expand their herds for the total number grazing to exceed the capacity of the land. Yet it was not in the individual interest of any farmer to decrease his herd.

In Phillip's excellent example, it's not really in the interest of any individual hunter to regulate his bag. Some might exercise self control but as a mass if there are enough hunters with no limits the turkeys are toast. In this case the responsible part of the hunting community together with the responsive governmental officials took the time to develop the knowledge for a good management plan which the state had the power to implement, thus overcoming the Tragedy of the Commons for Arkansas turkey hunters.

Thank you Phillip for sharing an example of how government should work.

Thanks, Ian...

I want to point out that is this state, our fish and game is closely monitored by hunters... to the extent of direct representation by/from hunters. There have been attempts to redirect the f&g funding into the direct control of our 'elected' state government. Every attempt is and has been met with an uprising of the hunting public along with the f&g itself. I am pointing to one less (at least) middle man between the hunter and the 'regulation' of the hunter's interest

given: turkey hunters are vastly better informed than your average deer hunter and is enthusitic to a fault... if you want proof... get a turkey call and to to a mall with a lot of people in it... let out a few hen squalks and you will know every turkey hunter in the place... complete with violently red waddles :)

John Smith
11-18-2011, 03:26 PM
So, the food and drug administration should be closely monitored by the eaters and pill takers. As opposed to the food and drug suppliers?

Ian McColgin
11-18-2011, 03:27 PM
Phillip, there are plenty of examples of government doing it wrong, of both elected and appointed officials meddling due to self-interest, stupidity, or ideological blinders. This happens to be an example of Arkansas folk managing to keep their government on track due largly to concerned citizens keeping the right sort of pressure on.

That's my idea of democracy in action and exactly the sort of thing (including some hunting issues when I was organizing in Northern New Hampshire) that I tried to facilitate as a community organizer.

Representative democracy fails if people barely vote much less take an active interest. Here we have a group of citizens, turkey hunters who given how elusive the turkey can be I easily believe to be a generally wholesome lot, making their government work correctly. Without the governmental power the turkeys would likely be exterminated. Without the citizens, politicians and their appointees could easily mismanage the resourse.

It's a great example and I thank you for bringing it to us.

Phillip Allen
11-18-2011, 03:28 PM
So, the food and drug administration should be closely monitored by the eaters and pill takers. As opposed to the food and drug suppliers?

didn't we have a thread about how the f&d is already monitored and controled by big pharma?

Phillip Allen
11-18-2011, 03:30 PM
Phillip, there are plenty of examples of government doing it wrong, of both elected and appointed officials meddling due to self-interest, stupidity, or ideological blinders. This happens to be an example of Arkansas folk managing to keep their government on track due largly to concerned citizens keeping the right sort of pressure on.

That's my idea of democracy in action and exactly the sort of thing (including some hunting issues when I was organizing in Northern New Hampshire) that I tried to facilitate as a community organizer.

Representative democracy fails if people barely vote much less take an active interest. Here we have a group of citizens, turkey hunters who given how elusive the turkey can be I easily believe to be a generally wholesome lot, making their government work correctly. Without the governmental power the turkeys would likely be exterminated. Without the citizens, politicians and their appointees could easily mismanage the resourse.

It's a great example and I thank you for bringing it to us.

I generally agree with you here... would that 'we' took more interest in the day to day running of our government but we are distracted by circus...lots of circus

John Smith
11-18-2011, 03:34 PM
I generally agree with you here... would that 'we' took more interest in the day to day running of our government but we are distracted by circus...lots of circus

One man's circus.....as they say. Self Regulation generally refers to NO government involvement. The way the system is SUPPOSED to work is the politicians answer to the public who holds them accountable. The system is corrupted by money, so those who most need to be regulated are the ones that have the money to buy the politicians.

Ian McColgin
11-18-2011, 03:55 PM
It's a fight that's never lost forever, but also never won. To take but one example: A quarter century ago I was part of the health care initiatives on Cape Cod that led to a clinic that not only brought prenatal and natal access to women on Medicaid but also lowered the Caesarian rate. Now we have state-wide caesarian rates that rival what Cape Cod Hospital - once the place of docs seeking cheep golf and a convenient schedule - had back then.

And I learned from both '30s labor radicals and from earlier Nonpartisan League and Women's Suffrage veterans. Just as in individual life one cycles through a new version of adolescence at other ages - new version, not quite the same version - so also issues are both historical and perennial. We must all keep plugging.

SMARTINSEN
11-18-2011, 04:03 PM
Two words: passenger pigeon.

Or buffalo, or cod, or Siberian tigers, or....... Our increasing mass of humanity is decimating once abundant natural food resources, and we are proving to be very poor indeed at self-regulation.

Md state biologists estimate that less than 1% of our once teeming oyster beds remain in the Chesapeake, yet the watermen are crying for more fishing rather than less saying that they know how to better manage the fishery than those damned state bureaucrats. Very poor self-regulation, indeed.