whb?

[Wild Dingo]

Howard I cant find the post you did about the boat you were wondering about stern wheeler type?
Anyway Ive updated the old "designs" album with a couple of others ive found on the old computer... but since I cant get at the email itself only the attachments at present I cant post where they come from or give credit for them but one is from Phil Bolger which gives some of his thoughts about it

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid51/pf11312286f73425f452da8597272a8b8/fca090ea.jpg

and another is a smaller 18ft overall one called showboat peddle or 5 - 7hp motor.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid51/pb79d157250b967da4080bba0d9a32899/fca08e33.jpg

Anyway the rest are in the album... just thought Id give you the heads up could give you some more ideas??

Danged rappid fire fingers!! :eek: here yer go! (http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=4290816399)

[ 02-18-2003, 12:46 AM: Message edited by: Wild Dingo ]

[whb]

Hi Shane,

Thanks. I like the looks of that front rudder. For a slow moving boat like this is would probably make control a lot smoother. The only concern I would have with it is hitting an underwater obstruction with it.

I have also noticed a small houseboat that Al Mason did. Its not a stern wheel. Instead he uses a tunnel so that the whole prop is above the level of the bottom of the boat. I think I might end up building the hull like he did. I would then be able to use a prop or a stern wheel.

Thanks again,

Have a good day

Howard

[A. Mason]

Hi Howard! What small houseboat design of Al Mason's are you referring to in your post?

The only wood houseboat of Al's design I know of is a 31'-11" shoal draft called "Inland Clipper?" To my way of thinking 32 feet is not exactly small ;=)

Do you know something I don't?

Take care, Anita

[whb]

Anita

Quite right, quite right, its not small is it. The inland clipper was in fact the boat I was referring to. I'm planning an 18' boat but I like the tunnel that Al used on the Inland Clipper.

Did Al do any other designs with this type of tunnel that you are aware of.

Howard

[A. Mason]

Hi Again Howard - the only other scow hull was the 16'-6" "Lily Pad" designed for use with an outboard. She has a bit of flare to the sides and a modified curvature to her bow. It doesn't appear that she has a tunnel though.

Al made the following comment that I think is worth repeating:

"It is a very common tendency of many amateur builders to make a part here and there a little larger and stronger believing only a mere pittance of weight has been added. Actually it is the little extra weight here and there that builds up to a quite large percentage of the total weight surprisingly fast, and weight always seriously affects the actual performance of the boat. Hence, don't exceed the weight of the material and sizes shown if you don't wish to be sadly disappointed at the culmination of your labor and effort."

Hope this helps,
Anita

[whb]

Thanks Anita

So far all I've really got in mind is a little part here and a little part there :D .

I have not yet really settled on any design.

In a perfect world here the criteria I have been refining.

1) Able to run in 6" of water with four adults and gear on board.
2) When the adults are told to get out and walk so we can go over a shallow bar able to float in 2 to 3" of water.
3) Speed is not a big factor but able to go up river faster than I can walk.
4) Stable for fishing.
5) Easy to trailer.

The above desires don't fit any one design very well but I have been designing one with the help of the forumites here. Right now here is where I am at.

1) Basic shape is a scow coming to a rounded point at the bow.
2) Beam at water line 4' to 4.5'
3) Cantileverd deck beam 6'
4) LOA 18'
5) Freeboard above cantileverd deck 1' to reduce windage
6) Power plant either a paddle wheel or a prop in or behind a tunnel.

This is how the proverbial camel was created isn't it ;)

Seems appropriate somehow as the river I travel is in a desert. This will be a real ship (boat)of the desert.

Howard

[Wild Dingo]

Ive been thinking since I posted the above... firstly Ive had to have a closer look at the hard copy of the "showboat" one and its not 18ft but 16ft 4in!!

Now the ideas that are floating are
a) Lengthen it out to 20 - 22ft
b) Beam out to 8ft 6in {this would still allow it to be trailered}
c) Take out the cuppola and move it forward
d) take out the two stacks and move them to aft above the motor area
e) raise the height of the cabin to 5ft 8 - 6ft for walk through

f) I can see the same problems as Howard did with the rudders being in the front and as he says this location may cause some problems so perhaps install them in the two side panel sections as they turn in at the aft position alongside the two paddlewheels {this can be best seen in "construction plan details of hulls" sheet at the imagestation album}

g) Adjust the width and height of the paddles to fit the adjusted space
h) Install a 15 hp outboard in a well at the aft area of the cabin {about where the bike is}

Now questions
1) Regarding the rudders would this idea of moving them to the rear work? perhaps make them so they kick up if they hit something below the depth of the paddles?
2) Regarding the outboard placement stretched would this be the best place? {Im thinking a set up such as the Simmons sea skiff}
3) So if one builds a setup such as the Simmons would this cause problems with the paddles working or the effectiveness of the two rudders?

Ive had a bit of a nose around today for a 5hp motor and so far no joy... so ergo the thoughts of the outboard ;)

Speed isnt important which is why I was thinking of the 15hp based on Rogers dads Nix design using one :rolleyes: perhaps one larger or smaller would do the trick? {suggestions?} I just grabbed that one as an example... Its intended use would be to just steadily plod along the waterways dropping a crab net or two sit at the front and do some fishing... not a houseboat but more a day traveler seats instead of beds and such a comfortable cruise... thinking of visitors when they lob up to take them into town in this instead of the usual car trip.

The plans show timber planking... Im thinking ply say 5/8in on the bottom and the sides and decks of 1/4 - 1/2in still using the timber framing of course!

What say you does all this seem feasible? Possible? within the realms of probabilities? what needs be done to get it to a point of buildability?

I shall again be playing around with these ideas tonight and trying to get them onto paper hopefully I will be able to take some pics of the results and post them {of course that will depend greatly on just how frustrated I get!! :mad: they could all end up in the bin! :D }

Also what happens on the proper showboats with the gang plank when its not in the down postition? Does it usually lay flat on the deck or are they tied off and remain in the upright? Just curious with that one! :cool:

[ 02-24-2003, 04:43 AM: Message edited by: Wild Dingo ]

[whb]

Hi Shane.

Take a look at the X treme flats boat at bateau.com.

By using a tunnel forward of the outboard they claim that they can run in 4" of water.

A 15 hp should be more than enough because we are not building a planing boat. A 15 hp with the right displacement hull should move along quite comfortably.

I am concerned about the width vs. length issue. You want at least three times the length at waterline as the beam also at waterline for efficiency. The efficiency improves up till about an 8 to 1 ratio.

I am moving back to considering two pontoons each 18' by 2'. This will give me a little more than an 8 to 1 ratio for each pontoon. Should be very efficient. I will put a 8' wide deck on it and rather that a permanent structure am considering a bimimi type top.

I still haven't come to grips with the power plant, bicycle or electric or even paddle wheel vs. outboard.

Like you I am more interested in plodding/fishing that high speed.

Howard

[ion barnes]

Howard, get a copy of Dave Gerr's book 'Nature of Boats' He talks about prop tunnels though they were for a prop and shaft, the info could be of some help. Ion

[John E Hardiman]

Originally posted by ionbarnes:
Howard, get a copy of Dave Gerr's book 'Nature of Boats' He talks about prop tunnels though they were for a prop and shaft, the info could be of some help. IonIon's comment about tunnels and shafts set off a warning buzzer in my brain, so I re-read the whole thread. And Howard and Shane, you are talking outboard in tunnel, right?...

There are some problems that you need to know about on tunnels, especially the ones that the top (not the exit) of the tunnel is close to or above the waterline. Now if the tunnel is sealed by water and the prop has sufficient tip clearence and turns at a low enough speed, everything works fine as the suction of the prop can only pull water from ahead and push it out astern. If there is an path to atmosphere however, the prop sucks air and you go nowhere fast while the engine rapidly tries to disassemble itself. :( I recall seeing only one outboard converted for a tunnel drive by having a seal plate fitted on top of the cavitation plate. The motor was fixed, did not turn, did not tilt. The cut out you see on the back of many carolina skiffs is to allow the motor to be tiled up, there is no "tunnel" and the prop is always below the hull in the running condition.

[Wild Dingo]

I was actually thinking of the skiffs John tunnels hadnt entered the equasion for me

I was thinking along the lines of installing the outboard about where the bike is in the picture I posted of the small sternwheeler above... basically because finding a small motor will be a drag but an outboard easy :rolleyes:

I was playing with the idea gleened from Simmons sea skiff having the tilt up setup as per his at the aft end of the boat forward of the wheel thus pushing water to the wheel and moving along :confused: ...I guess its more a "look" than actually making it work as a sternwheeler Im after... else Id be hunting a steam engine to fit in it! and that would be rarer than hens teeth around here tongue.gif

So you dont think it would work? :(

[whb]

Hi Shane and John

Shane I think it can work. What about a small direct current electric motor to power a paddle wheel. Quiet and a fairly good range especially if you install a solar panel to charge when you aren't actually motoring.

John, I was thinking about either an electric I/O or a trolling motor permanently installed in the tunnel. The tunnel would exit below water line. The motor would likely be fixed in place so rudders would still be required.

The advantage to the trolling motor is that for the price of a used motor and decent battery I also get the forward/reverse and velocity control.

Howard

[Ian McColgin]

Howard,
Looks like you're really on the sternwheeler tear but if you drift more to the practical, Tractor makes a nice low speed/high volume jet drive that might do you quite well.

Tractor has models that will get you up in the double digit speeds - 15kt ++ - but unlike the more common high speed jet drives they have power and control at low operating speeds and they don't osterize the water so much, making for environmental damage about in the range of a normal propeller.

Also unlike normal jet drives, these won't be damaged so much by sand sucked up in shallow areas.

G'luck

[whb]

Thanks Ian,

I will definately take a look. Not sure if I'm on a paddle wheel tear as much as looking for a solution that is.

Shallow water compatible, good a slow speeds, relatively quiet, low maintenance and cheap. I know that some of the above seem mutually exclusive.

Howard