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ahp
10-30-2011, 03:36 PM
I know a lot of bad things have been said about red oak, but if it sealed with CPES is it durable? The local Lowes has it but not white oak.

JoshuaIII
10-30-2011, 03:38 PM
Lowes? What about looking at a real saw mill for real durable wood?

yesiam
10-30-2011, 04:06 PM
I am no woodsmith but most of what I have read here regarding red oak is that it is to be shunned for any/most uses in wooden boats. When I started replacing the keelson on my Hartley this past summer I also considered red and soaking it in CPES as you have posed but I heeded the advice on this forum and sought out a better wood and source. HD and Lowes seems to really have alot of this stuff always in stock -- too bad because it is a good-looking wood at first glance.

ahp
10-30-2011, 07:45 PM
I have visited and contacted real saw mills. There are a few around. If you won't pay for entire log, they don't want to talk to you. I can get cypress, and I am using some. The pine found in lumber yards is "Southern Pine" which can be anything, or radiata pine which is junk. The lumber yards are essentially selling framing lumber. I think the lumber dealers are carrying a minimum of inventory in order to cut costs and stay in business. Building has essentially come to a halt around here.

Todd D
10-30-2011, 08:04 PM
What are you planning to use it for? For some applications it should be Ok if you thoroughly seal the end grain with epoxy. I think it works fine for laminations, but the wood is pretty much coated with epoxy in that application.

seo
10-30-2011, 08:16 PM
You should be far enough south to find live oak. That stuff will last a long time. Red oak is a northern species, common in the areas that are at the cold end of white oak's range.

Michael D. Storey
10-30-2011, 08:26 PM
I remember when there was an article in WB years ago regarding trying to PT red oak. Does anyone know if it went anywhere?

Paul Pless
10-30-2011, 08:47 PM
Art, I wouldn't chance it. Its just too prone to rot. I've watched it turn to mush in just a couple years time here on the ground in Michigan and can't imagine how much quicker it would go down South. I'm guessing this is for chines on sharpie, right? If your looking at big box stores for lumber in South Georgia, most of them carry Douglas Fir that would probably be as acceptable as oak. Its available in such large dimensional pieces and you can dig through the stacks and usually find something you can work with. Another option for you is to check out the dock, piling and seawall lumber suppliers near Savannah. I bought high quality custom treated pine from these places when building a large dock. They also sold redwood, cedar, and fir. Worth asking around for. There are several places that sell reclaimed as well second growth heart pine in North Florida and Georgia for custom flooring. If you only need a small amount they might be willing to cut you what you need but it will be expensive. Goodluck.

3sheets
10-30-2011, 10:19 PM
Hood Distribution is in Savannah. They probably deliver down your way. In my area they offer "free delivery" with a $300 minimum.

ahp
10-31-2011, 09:50 AM
Thanks all. I will stay away from it.

JoshuaIII
10-31-2011, 10:14 AM
This is why you don't want red oak:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eIXZ9iYM4PA

Jay Greer
10-31-2011, 12:02 PM
One consideration is that we all have the choice to disregard the advise of others, even when it is given as a result of past experience. I could give you a very sad example of this phennominom but I prefer not to.
Jay

McMike
10-31-2011, 12:14 PM
All I know is the restorers for the Morgan at Mystic gave a steam bending class at the WBS a few years back and they said that red oak should never be used in boatbuilding. They said it falls apart in water. I'll take that to the bank.

Lewisboater
10-31-2011, 02:16 PM
So... how many pounds pull would you say? Made out of one solid piece or laminated? (looks solid). How long did it take to tiller it so it pulled evenly?

wizbang 13
10-31-2011, 06:27 PM
That is not the correct use of cpes. Or junk wood.

seo
10-31-2011, 06:38 PM
The schooner "Heritage" was built almost entirely of red oak in 1982, and is still sailing, not in bad shape. The usual rap on red oak is that because it's very porous that moisture, humidity, rot spores, etc will race up and down the "soda straw" structure of the wood.
And that may be.
But on the other hand, those same Hell Tubes can be used to seal the structure of the wood.
As an example, a friend of mine was working as a boat carpenter for a well-known local guy named Roger Morse, who is Wilbur Morse's nephew, and grew up helping around his uncle's shop when they were building sloops in Friendship, Maine. Yeah, that Wilbur Morse. Then he worked at a family shipyard in Thomaston, Maine, and then started up his own shop, which was bought out by a guy named Cabot Lyman. Yeah, that Morse.
Anyway, my friend Geoff built a Friendship sloop, and Roger Morse helped him bend the frames into it, and told him to leave the frames run six inches above where the clamp would land. Then they drilled holes down into the extended frame heads, and through the entire planking process, part of the building ritual was to pour a mixture of kerosene, turpentine, and pine tar into all the framehead holes. By the time the planking was done, the oil/tar mixture was oozing out of the frame butts. The frames were incredibly hard, none of them broke, they were oily as fat longleaf yellow, and twenty five years on she hasn't rotted at all.
But, I guess that no real boatbuilder with any experience or any background would DREAM of using red oak.

wizbang 13
10-31-2011, 07:02 PM
That do sound practical Seo,
I bored a big hole down from the truck of my grown spar, and do the same, pour poison in .
Is the boat planked with red oak? Cuz if the answer is yes, I will" re think my drink!"

Bob Smalser
10-31-2011, 08:04 PM
Temperature and humidity.

What works (for a while, anyways) in the cold waters and frozen, dry winters of Maine or the Maritimes will be an absolute disaster in Georgia.

James McMullen
10-31-2011, 11:21 PM
Why the hell do people borrow so much trouble around oak? Whether it's trying to epoxy white oak or using red oak at all, there's never not another alternative that works better and has no known history of potential failure. Part of being a competent craftsman is learning how to minimize the possible risks of failure. Another part is learning which woods or even which part of each sawn board is suitable for the task it's called to do. There's things that certain bits of certain types of oak is very suitable for, but there's really no need to repeat the experiment in your home-cookin' when it's already been extensively tested out by your forebears.

What are you doing?

McMike
11-01-2011, 06:56 AM
Why the hell do people borrow so much trouble around oak? Whether it's trying to epoxy white oak or using red oak at all, there's never not another alternative that works better and has no known history of potential failure. Part of being a competent craftsman is learning how to minimize the possible risks of failure. Another part is learning which woods or even which part of each sawn board is suitable for the task it's called to do. There's things that certain bits of certain types of oak is very suitable for, but there's really no need to repeat the experiment in your home-cookin' when it's already been extensively tested out by your forebears.

What are you doing?

I have to say this is the most practical statement on this thread, IMHO.

ahp
11-01-2011, 09:05 AM
I may have said once that I had a three day class at Mystic on boat building with John Gardiner. Anyway, one thing we did in class was to cut a rabbit in a stem piece of red oak. I recall the John Gardiner said that red oak worked better than white. He didn't say anything about rot resistance, but on the other hand this was just a practice piece. Perhaps he knew about pouring something into the pores to prevent rot, but he didn't say.

ron ll
11-01-2011, 02:32 PM
I always wonder if the first person who ate the leaves of a potato plant instead of the roots was around long enough to know if his friends took his advice. :D Sometimes you just have to trust others, without trying for yourself.

seo
11-05-2011, 08:05 AM
Friendship sloops are almost always planked with cedar. White pine is seen on some older hulls, but the white pine of yore is pretty different stuff from what you see at the lumberyards today. I have one plank that came out of my house, which was built in around 1816. It shows 20 rings to the inch, and weighs more like old Douglas Fir than spruce.
It seems to me that different woods are good for planking different areas of a hull. As an example, yellow pine is great below the waterline, but much less desirable above the waterline. I used to own a 64' passenger boat, built in 1932, planked all with very nice yellow pine. The planking in the bilges was 2" thick, 12" wide, and 32' long. They were all in good shape. The planking above the waterline tended toward rotting along one ring that ran along the plank, appearing here on the outside, then disappearing into the plank, and then appearing on the inside. I learned early on that when a soft spot appeared in a plank that it would need to be replaced. No point in short planks or putty patches, except as a stopgap. I had come upon a source of good old-growth Douglas Fir, and still had some Yellow Pine, and used the Fir above the waterline, and saved the Yellow Pine for below waterline repairs.
I've also owned two boats planked with cypress, and for planking light hulls below the waterline it's wonderful. Above the waterline, it's very hard to get a bottle-smooth hull like you can with mahogany. It can be done, but it shows grain like yellow pine and douglas fir.
I think that a common construction for bigger Herreshoff sailing hulls was single planked below the waterline with yellow pine, double planked above WL with mahogany over cypress.

Jay Greer
11-05-2011, 11:24 AM
Darn Seo,
You have me beat, by a country mile, with your 1816 house! Mine was only built in 1889. Kind of makes a statment as to the durabiltiy of old growth timber.
Jay

pipefitter
11-05-2011, 11:29 AM
By the time you start soaking or pouring preservatives into and onto wood, you start edging towards the price of better choices and probably with even having to pay shipping. CPES isn't cheap.

seo
11-05-2011, 08:13 PM
Jay,
I didn't even know that they had houses out there in Port Townsend before the 20th century. 1816 is pretty old for Maine, but by Mass. standards it's a newcomer. When I did a rebuild on the house when I bought it in 1986, the ceilings were oppressively low. So I left the joist beams exposed, and almost 200 years later you can see where it was dubbed off with a broad axe. It would be nice to think that something I might do would last as long.

Daniel Noyes
11-07-2011, 11:38 PM
So true, my grandparents house in Newbury Ma has a leanto addition that was put on the house in 1702-3, the house proper (framed in red oak) is from the 1660's

I have heard that Pulsifer Hamptons are framed in red oak and planked in pine, red oak because it soakes up the coopernol better
and dories especialy the banks were often framed in red or "grey" oak, if the dory was used on a schooner it would be beat to splinters long before rot was a problem.

Bob Smalser
11-07-2011, 11:56 PM
I have heard that Pulsifer Hamptons are framed in red oak and planked in pine, red oak because it soakes up the coopernol better...



http://www.pulsiferhampton.com/specifications.php




Frames: Stream bent, quarter sawn white oak, nominally 1” x 2” on 12” centers.




But this article talks to Pulsifer using Red Oak.

http://www.soundingsonline.com/boat-shop/on-powerboats/264622-a-builder-whos-wedded-to-wood?start=1

But it also talks to winter-harvested wood already being partially seasoned, and treating red oak with Cuprinol and subsequently bonding it using 3M 5200.....both of which are absolute nonsense.

Conclusion: there is no shortage of voodoo out there in boatbuilding. Don't buy into all of it.

Tom3
11-08-2011, 08:03 AM
Jay,
I didn't even know that they had houses out there in Port Townsend before the 20th century. 1816 is pretty old for Maine, but by Mass. standards it's a newcomer. When I did a rebuild on the house when I bought it in 1986, the ceilings were oppressively low. So I left the joist beams exposed, and almost 200 years later you can see where it was dubbed off with a broad axe. It would be nice to think that something I might do would last as long.

When I opened about 14' of the center roof framing on my old house built in 1850 here in Rockport, I salvaged all the rafters. The old pine too had two to three times the rings in an inch that I see in todays lumber.

I had removed that section to build flanking shed dormers with a roof walk on top. (Widows walk). The walk is lowered and has an EPDM roof inside. When it came time to build the railings, I went for the salvaged rafters. I knew pine was not rot resistant but I thought the quality was worth a try. Plus I needed the wide stock for the heavy design I wanted. And I had it in the shop. It seemed worth a try....

It was quite a bit of work resawing, planing(the top sheds water quickly). And I took real pains to seal all the ends of the cuts in oil based primers, bedded in goop, stainless fasteners, two coats of heavy house paint.

The top of a roof on the coast of Maine is a nasty place. The roof walk is holding up well after more than 10 years(no leaks). But the old pine was not up to it. The upper railings checked quickly as did the balusters. Once those openings appeared, moisture got sucked in and did it's damage. The old pine rotted rapidly.

I should have saved those timbers and used them inside!

The railings and ballusters need replacing soon. The new pine bases and corner posts are holding up fine but their design sheds water.

I may try pressure treated railings this time (I hate the stuff but have sawn exterior thick profile railings from 4x4 clearish stock). It too will check but after it's dried out can be coated. Luckily, you can walk the railing inside and out to recoat, a must for the rough location.

But I can see the harbor from there so the painting is easy,...

Bob Smalser
11-08-2011, 08:41 AM
The old pine rotted rapidly.



Those attic rafters were in the close equivalent of a kiln for three months annually for 160 years. Using lumber salvaged from old buildings for structural or exterior applications isn't a good idea. Wood that old and that dry has lost much of its lignin and with it, its resilience.

Tom3
11-08-2011, 10:25 AM
Those attic rafters were in the close equivalent of a kiln for three months annually for 160 years. Using lumber salvaged from old buildings for structural or exterior applications isn't a good idea. Wood that old and that dry has lost much of its lignin and with it, its resilience.

Looking back, that certainly was the case. A good lesson learned. Thanks.

Windsong
11-08-2011, 10:48 AM
If you are one who wants their work to stand the test of time use wood and materials that are proven to work and serve the purpose of the project you are spending your time a efforts on. You will curse the day you didn't when it fails if you survive the failure.