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John Smith
10-27-2011, 06:24 PM
I went this afternoon to what would likely have been my last physical therapy for my back. My first few sessions were scheduled for 4:00 PM on Tuesday and Thursday. My therapist had problems getting to this office by 4, so we changed the time to 4:30. He still tended to be late.

Today I got there at 4:30 and he was there, but a little behind. Fine. At 4:45, as I was waiting for my table, and a waiting room full of people were wating to see the medical staff, the place shut down for 15 minutes while all the doctors (Muslims) prayed. I was nice and stayed out of the room while they did this. When they were finished I went in, got my jacket, and left.

My therapist followed me out to the car to apologize. I told him I didn't care what their regligion is or how they practiced it, but I found it outrageous that their religion is more important than their patients.

In efforts to make an analogy I have come up with taking a cab to the airport and missing your plane because the driver pulled over and prayed for 20 minutes.

My position is they should not schedule patients during their prayer times, and the taxi driver ought not accept a fair when his prayer time will prevent him from getting his passenger to the airport in a timely manner.

I wonder how many would be happy, or tolerant with, going out to dinner at a restaurant where people are waiting to be seated and the cooking staff all shut the kitchen down for 15 minutes of prayer.

When their prayer holds up the patient's treatment, they are praying on the patient's time, IMO.

Paul Pless
10-27-2011, 06:26 PM
Did I do the right thing?Maybe you should pray about it. . .

Bobcat
10-27-2011, 06:32 PM
They need some infidels to take over during prayers

Peter Malcolm Jardine
10-27-2011, 06:35 PM
I have a problem with people scheduling appointments that they don't keep. period. This scenario has nothing to do with being muslim in my opinion, and everything to do with people respecting my time while I respect theirs.

Gerarddm
10-27-2011, 06:36 PM
Peter +1

John Smith
10-27-2011, 06:38 PM
I have a problem with people scheduling appointments that they don't keep. period. This scenario has nothing to do with being muslim in my opinion, and everything to do with people respecting my time while I respect theirs.

That's about how I feel. It's disrespectful to the patients.

Peter Malcolm Jardine
10-27-2011, 06:44 PM
I will go one step further. When I call or ask for customer service in most situations and they request me to do an unreasonable amount of effort and time to resolve what is essentially their problem, I always ask them "Where do I send the bill?" I get blank stares and they ask "The bill for what?" My response is that my time is worth about 35 dollars per hour. When I have resolved YOUR customer service issue using MY time, I want to be reimbursed. Usually I get more service after that, but if not, I return the item for a full refund, which is usually the policy, or cancel my contract with them by stopping payment at the bank. Sometimes that results in more service, but sometimes it doesn't.

I've had conversations with my MD about appointments too. One time I waited to see him 55 minutes after my scheduled appointment. I was quite polite, but I told him I felt my time was worth something as well, and that I would appreciate not having to take time off work to sit in his waiting room twiddling my thumbs.

Bob Adams
10-27-2011, 06:55 PM
Last week I waited 3 hours! When my wife was undergoing chemo at Hopkins, all sessions started at least 1 hour late, yet they want you there 1/2 hour before your appointment time. To the Docs, your time is worthless. They are so scared someone might not show up and result in some unbillable time they overbook. Everytime.

Ian McColgin
10-27-2011, 07:08 PM
We notice it with doctors and dentists, but all manner of craft people (sometimes called professionals) have a time management problem coupled with the belief that their time matters more than a client's. So they schedule without space between for the normal admin and without time for things that run over a bit - not to mention time for bathroom breaks or prayer breacks (often indistinguishable) which are going to be taken none-the-less. With some of these charactors - includes plumbers, electricians, boat haulers, almost anyone with an appointment book - you have a better chance of the other party being on time if you schedule for early morning. Sometimes.

I make a case by case whether I want to make a deal about it or not. Sometimes the unforseeable really does happen. But when a person lays the schedule so he or she is almost always late, I either tell them that we should pop it back a few for next week or, if that's not on, I tell them I'll seek another.

Bobcat
10-27-2011, 07:10 PM
The problem I see here is that the providers know that there is a time (or times) that they cannot be available for patients, but schedule patients anyway. It's rude and says that my time is more important than your time.

Nicholas Carey
10-27-2011, 07:12 PM
On a somewhat related note, Hertz at Seattle/Tacoma Int'l Airport (SEA) has caused a bit of a ruckus locally:

http://www.seattleweekly.com/2011-10-12/news/hertz-s-muslims-problem/
http://blogs.seattleweekly.com/dailyweekly/2011/10/hertz_moves_to_fire_suspended.php

They've fired 34 Somali Muslims who drive the airport shuttle buses for not clocking out for their mandatory prayer (5x/day @ about 10 minutes per prayer).

Apparently, other "optional" breaks are different than periodic prayer mandated by religion: Hertz doesn't seem to have a problem with smokers taking roughly the same amount of time per shift and a roughly equivalent number of smoke breaks. Lost time, according this letter (http://occmed.oxfordjournals.org/content/56/7/510.full) in the Oxford Journal of Occupational Medicine (http://occmed.oxfordjournals.org/) works out to be just over an hour per day:



In common with many companies, workers are permitted to take smoking breaks in addition to usually permitted breaks. To assess the loss in productivity caused by smoking, we used an estimate of 10 working minutes lost per tobacco product, based on anecdotal evidence. This is greater than the 6-min estimate used by Parrott et al. [2], but takes into account the fact that company sites are non-smoking and employees must travel to and from designated external smoking areas.

Our baseline survey revealed that 646 participants smoked a total of 9896 tobacco products per day (not including weekends). Thirteen per cent of participants (86) said they did not smoke during work, while 558 participants smoked a total of 3585 tobacco products while at work (data were unavailable for two participants). This gives an average of 6.4 products smoked per employee.

Using the estimate of 10 working minutes lost per tobacco product, this equates to an estimated total of 597.5 h spent smoking at work and an estimated loss in productivity of 64 min per smoking employee per day. Interestingly, although participants who smoked ten or more tobacco products a day constituted only 23% of the total number of employees who smoked at work, they accounted for 42% of total working hours lost.

Ian McColgin
10-27-2011, 07:21 PM
Nicholas raises an important point of unequal treatment based on religion, though it's likely that smoke breaks are more flexable when they happen so non-Muslim drivers would have an easier time taking their smoke at times not inconvenient to their driving duties.

But that is still different than office staff scheduling clients for times they know they are not available.

Which in turn is more obviously wrong but is it really any worse than people who over-book themselves thus ensuring progressivly tardier service through the day.

Bruce Hooke
10-27-2011, 07:26 PM
It does seem to me that they did not actually schedule your appointment for when they knew they would be taking a prayer break, they were instead running late and your appointment ran into their prayer break. However, I am not completely clear about the inter-relationship between the length of your appointment and whether the person who would actually have been seeing you would have taken said prayer break if it had fallen during the time when he was actually seeing you. In any case, it seems to me the key issue is the appointment being late, rather than the prayer break since if they were running on time they could presumably have in fact scheduled around the prayer break. I suspect similar "intrusions" happen in the schedules at most medical offices, they just are not as visible to the patients.

Realistically, with a lot of medical offices it seems like running late is the norm. I suspect it may have to do with the heavy pressure the insurance companies put on most medical providers to keep their appointments short. One patient who needs more than the allotted 15 minutes or whatever and every appointment after that gets pushed back. I am not sure what to do about this but unfortunately it seems to be the norm. So, I just plan for it by bringing something I can do or read. Unfortunate, but that's the world we seem to live in.

Nicholas Carey
10-28-2011, 11:57 AM
Nicholas raises an important point of unequal treatment based on religion, though it's likely that smoke breaks are more flexable when they happen so non-Muslim drivers would have an easier time taking their smoke at times not inconvenient to their driving duties.

But that is still different than office staff scheduling clients for times they know they are not available.

Which in turn is more obviously wrong but is it really any worse than people who over-book themselves thus ensuring progressivly tardier service through the day.The times of daily prayer for Muslims are based on solar time and so move about somewhat. And, of course, this being religion, there are different schools of thought as well.

http://praytimes.org/calculation/

For instance, here's the (an?) October 2011 prayer time calendar for Seattle: http://www.islamicfinder.org/prayerDetail.php?zipcode=98117&country=usa&lang=english&monthly=1

It should also be noted that sunrise/sunset figure into the calculation, terrain actually plays a part here (something noted by Edward M. Reingold and Nachum Dershowitz' fantabulous Calendrical Calculations (http://emr.cs.uiuc.edu/home/reingold/calendar-book/index.shtml). This is true with other solar-/lunar-based calendars as well, that consider start-of-day to be tied to sunrise/sunset.

One can understand why the receptionist doing the scheduling might not be aware of the details (though you'd think, if all the doctors on staff are observant Muslims, the schedulers would keep a current prayer calendar taped to the desktop.)

leikec
10-28-2011, 12:03 PM
I went this afternoon to what would likely have been my last physical therapy for my back. My first few sessions were scheduled for 4:00 PM on Tuesday and Thursday. My therapist had problems getting to this office by 4, so we changed the time to 4:30. He still tended to be late.

Today I got there at 4:30 and he was there, but a little behind. Fine. At 4:45, as I was waiting for my table, and a waiting room full of people were wating to see the medical staff, the place shut down for 15 minutes while all the doctors (Muslims) prayed. I was nice and stayed out of the room while they did this. When they were finished I went in, got my jacket, and left.

My therapist followed me out to the car to apologize. I told him I didn't care what their regligion is or how they practiced it, but I found it outrageous that their religion is more important than their patients.

In efforts to make an analogy I have come up with taking a cab to the airport and missing your plane because the driver pulled over and prayed for 20 minutes.

My position is they should not schedule patients during their prayer times, and the taxi driver ought not accept a fair when his prayer time will prevent him from getting his passenger to the airport in a timely manner.

I wonder how many would be happy, or tolerant with, going out to dinner at a restaurant where people are waiting to be seated and the cooking staff all shut the kitchen down for 15 minutes of prayer.

When their prayer holds up the patient's treatment, they are praying on the patient's time, IMO.


I realize you made the story about the taxi driver up, but I must say that I've never seen a taxi driver pray--their driving however, has frequently goaded me into prayer while I'm riding in the backseat....

Jeff C

S.V. Airlie
10-28-2011, 12:05 PM
Worst offenders seem to be the telephone companies. They tell me that they will be there between 8 and 5. In one case, no show at all and you are sitting there waiting as you have to be there when they show up or they will leave.
I had one case where I needed two lines installed. I got a call from one ATT&T rep. saying tht they will show up for line one to be installed between 8 and 5. I got a second call, the same day that others will be there to put in my line to the barn. Both were no shows..not even a call. The next day, the guy working on the barn told me that if I had coordinated this better, it would have been cheaper. I just looked at him, as if I could coordinate anything they do. Cost me another $500.00. Your time spent is not their concern.

TANSTAF1
10-28-2011, 12:12 PM
Unless they have a good track record, I always try to schedule for first thing in the morning or possibly first thing after lunch. I once left a doctor's office and told the staff to call me at my home when the doctor was free and I might come back.

Andrew Craig-Bennett
10-28-2011, 12:18 PM
Well, I see this differently, but then I grew up amongst Moslems.

They don't really have much choice about when and how to pray; for Christians its different - we tend to see God (we are, I believe, speaking of the same chap) as "open all hours" because Jesus told us not to pray like the Pharisees. Mohammed gave no such instruction but he was crystal clear about when and how to pray, and there has been a resurgence of literaism on this pouint which may make it hard to break ranks on it. A Moslem doctor really doesn't have a choice and it isn't a question of putting his religion before his patients.

Art Read
10-28-2011, 12:59 PM
"Time and tide wait for no man"... Muslims used to be known as competent and intrepid seafarers. I wonder how their prayer schedule played into this? All I know, is that when I have obligated myself to perform a professional service, MY time and attention belong to the client and his needs until the service is completed. But then, my religion doesn't dictate otherwise, and I have the luxury of only taking on one client at a time. I certainly can't imagine taking time in a nasty gale offshore to turn and pray to Mecca... (But God knows, I've a uttered a few quick prayers in my time!)

Bruce Hooke
10-28-2011, 12:59 PM
With both doctors and phone company employees I do have to wonder, how many would, if given the choice, choose to pay, say, 40% more in order to have an appointment with a definite time you could count on. Clearly in both cases the late appointments or "I'll be there between 8 and 5" is because the company is trying to save money. I don't know how much more it would cost if they did not do that, but I am sure it would not be an insignificant cost.

S.V. Airlie
10-28-2011, 01:19 PM
A day's cost amounts to something. An appointment delayed is an inconvenience but I have more empathy for religious observances for even an hour, than 8 hours sitting on my front porch with no call to cancel. How many doctors have you seen that, if you did not cancel, billed you for the time lost? .Some even give a time limit to cancel an appointment.

Art Read
10-28-2011, 01:27 PM
A day's cost amounts to something. An appointment delayed is an inconvenience but I have more empathy for religious observances for even an hour, than 8 hours sitting on my front porch with no call to cancel. How many doctors have you seen that, if you did not cancel, billed you for the time lost? .Some even give a time limit to cancel an appointment.

Oh yeah! Blow off a doctor's appointment, pay the full fare. Show up and have to wait three hours 'till they finally tell you they're closing the office and the doctor can't see you? "Sorry. Have a nice day!" Same thing with utilities. Stay home all day and no one shows? "We'll be there tomorrow." Run out to buy a cup of coffee at the wrong time? "Missed service call fee."

S.V. Airlie
10-28-2011, 01:29 PM
Not what I am saying at all Art. I'm just saying if you don't meet an appointment, the docs. might charge you for their lost time.

Art Read
10-28-2011, 01:42 PM
I just get peeved at the disregard some professional services show towards their client's own time. I would be red faced and concerned about my continued employment if I ever treated my clients that way.

S.V. Airlie
10-28-2011, 01:47 PM
I think I was agreeing with you Art if you read my posts...I was just pointing out that some professions were happy to bill the client for either a lost appointment or one not met at all. My AT&T story was an example. The client was holding the bag when he was promised that someone from AT&T would show up between the hours of 8 and 5, and just blew off the client without a cancellation or a fair the well when they did not make an effort to cancel..The client was still holding the bag at 5pm. Granted stuff happens but if one makes an appointment, one should go to it.*
Again, I have a lot of empathy for those appointments interrupted by say religious beliefs. I can deal with those.

John Smith
10-28-2011, 02:11 PM
Nicholas raises an important point of unequal treatment based on religion, though it's likely that smoke breaks are more flexable when they happen so non-Muslim drivers would have an easier time taking their smoke at times not inconvenient to their driving duties.

But that is still different than office staff scheduling clients for times they know they are not available.

Which in turn is more obviously wrong but is it really any worse than people who over-book themselves thus ensuring progressivly tardier service through the day.

It's not my intent to make this a Muslim, non Muslim issue. I have been the emergency that put my doctor behind with his other patients and I've been the patient with a problem who was told to come in immediately. Not all back ups in doctor's offices can be avoided.

I wonder, however, a bus full of commuters would feel if the driver pulled over, got out of the bus and spent 15 or 20 minutes doing what his religion demanded, or if people are standing in line at a restaurant waiting to be seated, and the entire kitchen staff stop to pray, so the line stops.

John Smith
10-28-2011, 02:14 PM
Worst offenders seem to be the telephone companies. They tell me that they will be there between 8 and 5. In one case, no show at all and you are sitting there waiting as you have to be there when they show up or they will leave.
I had one case where I needed two lines installed. I got a call from one ATT&T rep. saying tht they will show up for line one to be installed between 8 and 5. I got a second call, the same day that others will be there to put in my line to the barn. Both were no shows..not even a call. The next day, the guy working on the barn told me that if I had coordinated this better, it would have been cheaper. I just looked at him, as if I could coordinate anything they do. Cost me another $500.00. Your time spent is not their concern.

Sometimes people are just stupid. Our phone wasn't ringing. We called our provider and they arranged for a guy to come out. When he didn't show, we called back. It seemed he called us before coming. When we didn't answer, he assumed we were not home and bi-passed us.

Paul Pless
10-28-2011, 02:14 PM
It's not my intent to make this a Muslim, non Muslim issue. Then why'd you include that fact in your anecdote?

S.V. Airlie
10-28-2011, 02:17 PM
I don't know how I would react.Probably without much of a fuss though. I'm often standing in line at a restaurant regardless as to the reason for the delay.I try not to be in such a hurry *regardless.*An 8 hour day is a bit different than 20 min. though. I do get miffed at losing a whole day...

John Smith
10-28-2011, 02:19 PM
I've got two points to make, on this:

First, I agree that they should not schedule patients if it conflicts with prayer time. It's not clear, from your post, that they do this routinely or not, since on the day you mentioned, they were running late... it happens.

Second: I view something like this as a situation where we can all call upon our better angels and make an accomodation for the sake of other's beliefs and obligations. If this happened all the time, I agree, I'd be pretty annoyed... but let's assume that it was the first and only time it happened to you.... wouldn't the right thing to do, the one that reflects on your own character, to be aquiescent and accomodating, accepting a very slight inconvenience to yourself to show a kindness to someone else?
I began in that mode. When I realized my actual therapist had interrupted his work on the patient he was working on and joined the prayer group, and that the prayer took so long: all participants had to wash their hands, and a couple of rugs had to be laid down. etc. I changed my mood a bit. This also followed my changing my appointment time from 4 to 4:30 because my therapist couldn't get there by 4.

After giving this much thought, I decided this is an insult to the patients. I have no problem with religion or the practice of it, until such practice is imposed on others. This imposed the practice of their religion on their patients.

Move this sort of thing to some other place in life and ask yourself what attitude one should take.

S.V. Airlie
10-28-2011, 02:21 PM
Sometimes people are just stupid. Our phone wasn't ringing. We called our provider and they arranged for a guy to come out. When he didn't show, we called back. It seemed he called us before coming. When we didn't answer, he assumed we were not home and bi-passed us.That's why I was sitting on the porch 10' from the phone.The phone never rang. At least not a call from AT&T. I got other calls from various people though. Not an issue with the phone at all. Worked fine.

John Smith
10-28-2011, 02:25 PM
Well, I see this differently, but then I grew up amongst Moslems.

They don't really have much choice about when and how to pray; for Christians its different - we tend to see God (we are, I believe, speaking of the same chap) as "open all hours" because Jesus told us not to pray like the Pharisees. Mohammed gave no such instruction but he was crystal clear about when and how to pray, and there has been a resurgence of literaism on this pouint which may make it hard to break ranks on it. A Moslem doctor really doesn't have a choice and it isn't a question of putting his religion before his patients.

A simple sign advising the patients of this would go a long way. If they know they will be having prayer at 4:45 on a Thursday, they should forewarn any patient they schedule and advise him his treatment may be interrupted, or WILL BE INTERRUPTED by their prayer. I would have gladly rescheduled.

To put this into another analgous situtation, would you want to take a bus if the driver knows your journey will be stopped for his 15 minutes of prayer?

John Smith
10-28-2011, 02:29 PM
With both doctors and phone company employees I do have to wonder, how many would, if given the choice, choose to pay, say, 40% more in order to have an appointment with a definite time you could count on. Clearly in both cases the late appointments or "I'll be there between 8 and 5" is because the company is trying to save money. I don't know how much more it would cost if they did not do that, but I am sure it would not be an insignificant cost.

I have to say most dcotors I deal with are quite punctual. On occasions where they have been held up and my appointment was a follow up of some sort, they've called an asked me to reschedule.

This was not a doctor related emergency. I resent them thinking my time, and the time of the other patients, means nothing.

S.V. Airlie
10-28-2011, 02:29 PM
Look John..A good reason for the delay, or an apology for that delay works wonders for me and goes pretty far in my books. Getting the "brushoff" that I know is a "brushoff" goes nowhere with me.

TANSTAF1
10-28-2011, 02:32 PM
What happens on an international flight if all the pilots are Muslims? What about the war to take down Gaddafi? Do both sides have time outs for prayer? Just curious?

John Smith
10-28-2011, 02:37 PM
Then why'd you include that fact in your anecdote?

So people would understand that this is why the all took that time for their prayers.

Please don't miscontrue me. I don't give a damn that they dake time to pray. I just get pisseed that they scheduled my appointment for a time it interfered with. When I got there, if they had advised me that they will be making their prayer session and it will further delay my therapy, and given me the option to stay or reschedule, it would have at least be courteous. To simply take over the room and assume it's okay with everyone seems pretty disrespectful

S.V. Airlie
10-28-2011, 02:37 PM
International flight..autopilot.
I don't know as much about Muslim religion. I expect that they have exceptions regarding prayer as long as they prayed 5 times a day.

John Smith
10-28-2011, 02:40 PM
I view this as a known and scheduled delay in services. I would have liked to have been re-scheduled around it. I expect many of their other patients would also.

S.V. Airlie
10-28-2011, 02:44 PM
Let's see, your doc said he would be delayed. You showed up at 4:30 around the time of the doc. You waited until 4:45..Fifteen minutes waiting and then another 15 minutes. Must have driven you nuts to wait that long. When I go to the docs., I take my copy of "War and Peace".Might make it through an entire chapter..LOL

skuthorp
10-28-2011, 02:55 PM
I suppose that in a muslim country the behaviour would not be remarkable, and it's a cultural issue too maybe that such things only worry 'capitalist' countries where time is considered money. But the practice is wide open for abuse and in a diverse workplace could generate resentment if the pay was equal. From limited experience medicos etc seem to be better at time management thn they were, plumbers still are a law to themselves - down here the come with the boat attatched ready to go fishing. Telco's here are as bad as there it seems.
I worked in a place where the smokers would go outside 4 or 5 times a day for 10 minutes and then 15 and eventually have coffee as well and take half an hour. Us non-smokers often had to deal with their phone calls and sometimes work. We logged them for 4 months, halved the time and applied for extensions to our leave to compensate. After some confusion we received a 'bonus' every 6 months, extra leave was seen as too contentious.

Nicholas Carey
10-28-2011, 03:15 PM
Let's see, your doc said he would be delayed. You showed up at 4:30 around the time of the doc. You waited until 4:45..Fifteen minutes waiting and then another 15 minutes. Must have driven you nuts to wait that long. When I go to the docs., I take my copy of "War and Peace".Might make it through an entire chapter..LOLYes...my appointments are usually towards the end of the day. I just assume I'll be cooling my heels for a bit and unless I want to be reading a 10-month old copy of People magazine, I ought probably bring my own entertainment.

Tall Boy
10-28-2011, 03:22 PM
The right thing? Don't know, but I would have done the same. Running late seems to be the norm at the Docs these days, that's why I alway get the first or last appointment time...funny how they catch up close to the end of the day.

S.V. Airlie
10-28-2011, 04:28 PM
I just hope you are all patient with your wives when they are brushing their hair religious in a mirror an are running late.:)

PhaseLockedLoop
10-28-2011, 04:56 PM
It's clear that you’re angry because these Muslims take their religion seriously, and you don't take their religion seriously. Which comes first, their religion or your convenience? Their religion does. And it’s scornful, or at least condescending, to cobble up scenarios of Muslims in taxis or boats or whatever causing significant disorder. Religious observance often impacts others. I went through primary and secondary school with only institutional fish offered for lunch on Friday, and I loath fish. I think I suffered more during those twelve years than you did having to wait an extra fifteen minutes on one measly occasion. I’m not religious, but I made my peace with those who are when I was a kid. Obviously this sort of thing can be abused, but this is not such an occasion.

I only write this since you asked.

Nicholas Carey
10-28-2011, 06:13 PM
I went through primary and secondary school with only institutional fish offered for lunch on Friday, and I loath fish.Especially the "fish sticks" the serve in school lunch rooms. :D

We stopped the fish-on-friday routine when my mom talked to her cousins in Argentina and discovered that the fish-on-friday rule was something the North American R.C. bishops had made up. The rest of the world wasn't so afflicted.

I remember the nuns confiscating our home-made whole wheat bread with meat and cheese sandwiches on Fridays and giving us instead PB&J on Wonder Bread instead. Pretty sure that our sandwiches got wolfed down right quick by the nuns for their lunch.

elf
10-28-2011, 06:31 PM
Curiously, I go to a community Health Center, one of those places that is populated by lots of people on Medicaid and Medicare. My doctor's assistant is rarely more than 5 minutes late, does not hurry me out of the consultation as some assigned time and I bring all my old magazines to the waiting room for others to read. PopPhoto, The New Yorker, Sierran, Sailing World - so others have something to read that's not Good Housekeeping etc.

As for Phase Locked Loop loathing fish - what a shame. Time to get over it and eat real fish. There's lots of wonderful fish out there to be eaten. Just eat near the bottom of the food chain.

BrianW
10-28-2011, 07:00 PM
I still think you did the right thing John. The same people who love to criticize Christians, will bend over backwards for a Muslim if they thought it made them seem more liberal. As they are so fond of pointing out, this is not a Christian nation, therefore it's not a Muslim nation either. There's no way it's okay to make you wait while they pray. If a Christian had done that, and you walked out, you be getting all kinds of congrats and support.


Well, that should stir things up. :D

PhaseLockedLoop
10-28-2011, 09:09 PM
As for Phase Locked Loop loathing fish - what a shame. Time to get over it and eat real fish. There's lots of wonderful fish out there to be eaten. Just eat near the bottom of the food chain.

I should have said I loathed fish. The institutional fish, together with my mother's fish, put me off fish until I was 35 or so. Nowadays there are several fish I quite like, and several more that I find good enough to eat.

Scott Rosen
10-29-2011, 08:33 AM
I understand John's frustration. And it IS about religion. In the Judeo-Christian tradition, we are taught to place the health and well-being of others above ritual requirements. Speaking from my own knowledge, even the most Orthodox of Jewish doctors will work on the Sabbath and forego daily prayers to attend to patients. Jewish law requires it. Christianity is even less tied to ritual, so the notion that it's more important to pray at a fixed time than to treat patients is alien.

In my own professional life, I always keep my appointments on time and never leave clients waiting. I even make house calls. If I can't make it on time, I call in advance.

If God told me to ignore the needs of my clients so I could kow-tow to him at a fixed time, I'd look for another god.

bobbys
10-29-2011, 12:33 PM
I asked my dentist and chiro if they took people on the Oregon health plan.

They said they would soon be out of business as most never show up for appointments on time or not at all and they have a staff to pay..

Its a issue never addressed in the Health care debates.

bobbys
10-29-2011, 12:41 PM
I understand John's frustration. And it IS about religion. In the Judeo-Christian tradition, we are taught to place the health and well-being of others above ritual requirements. Speaking from my own knowledge, even the most Orthodox of Jewish doctors will work on the Sabbath and forego daily prayers to attend to patients. Jewish law requires it. Christianity is even less tied to ritual, so the notion that it's more important to pray at a fixed time than to treat patients is alien.

In my own professional life, I always keep my appointments on time and never leave clients waiting. I even make house calls. If I can't make it on time, I call in advance.

If God told me to ignore the needs of my clients so I could kow-tow to him at a fixed time, I'd look for another god..

In my business i spend a lot of time giving free bids which of course is different.

However i learned not to give a time as i could not keep specific times with a crew, a roof open with weather changing, keeping my obligations to those that hired me etc..

If i could not keep a certain time i was labeled as unreliable.

So i gave a block of time such as noon to 3 and gave myself leeway.

If they insisted on a time for something for free i told them i could do it but needed to charge accordingly for my time as i would be leaving a job already in progress..

Amazing how people think nothing of some one else's time and can gather 6 bids if they deem it as free.

John Smith
10-29-2011, 02:23 PM
Who says we have to respect the religious beliefs of others? While our Constitution guarantees us that the government may not interfere with the free practice of religion, there is no such restriction placed on individuals. We are free to disrespect religion, and a great many members of our community do so with great vigor, as is their right.

John, I agree with what you did. I cannot imagine having the hutzpa were I to migrate to another country to expect those folks to make special accommodation of my peculiar beliefs, to waste their time and interrupt their way of doing things. It's arrogant and disrespectful in the extreme. When in Rome, dontcha know. Business people have to respect their customers if they wish to succeed. I'd tell them so and take my business elsewhere.

If they are going to in affect close the office for a length of time for their group prayers, I have no problem. Just don't schedule me for that time period. I have no idea if the people in the waiting room new this was happening or not. I just happened to be where I had a front row seat.

I am hard pressed to think of anywhere in your life where you'd tolerate a total shutdown for prayers if you had not been forwarned and offered alternative scheduling.

S.V. Airlie
10-29-2011, 02:27 PM
What happens if the doc spends a bit more time with patients that he worked with that went longer than their ten minute time allotment? Isn't taking care of other patients while they are in the office just important? Would you kick them out because the delay was unacceptable to you?

John Smith
10-29-2011, 02:33 PM
I still think you did the right thing John. The same people who love to criticize Christians, will bend over backwards for a Muslim if they thought it made them seem more liberal. As they are so fond of pointing out, this is not a Christian nation, therefore it's not a Muslim nation either. There's no way it's okay to make you wait while they pray. If a Christian had done that, and you walked out, you be getting all kinds of congrats and support.


Well, that should stir things up. :D

I don't think it would be any different if the doctors were going to shut down for some other reason for 15 or 20 minutes. As long as THEY know in advance it will happen, scheduling patients for that time frame is insuslting.

I have no interest in preventing them from following their religion. And to think that this is only an "inconvenience" to patients trivializes the patient, by assuming he has no place he needs to be at some scheduled time. Isn't this the whole reason for appointments?

I've had doctor visits where the doctor got hung up at the hospital and the patients in the waiting room were made aware and given the option to stay or make new appointments. Some offices simply overbook, but that's another deal.

The entire office shutting down for the time of this prayer is very much like a bus driver stopping the bus for that lenth of time.

If we wish to take this to an extreme, I suppose we could ask about a surgeon stopping in the middle of surgery to pray for 15 minutes. Why schedule a surgery that will conflict with your prayer schedule?

John Smith
10-29-2011, 02:35 PM
I asked my dentist and chiro if they took people on the Oregon health plan.

They said they would soon be out of business as most never show up for appointments on time or not at all and they have a staff to pay..

Its a issue never addressed in the Health care debates.

It is certainly an issue not germaine to this thread.

John Smith
10-29-2011, 02:37 PM
What happens if the doc spends a bit more time with patients that he worked with that went longer than their ten minute time allotment? Isn't taking care of other patients while they are in the office just important? Would you kick them out because the delay was unacceptable to you?

Not germaine to this topic.

S.V. Airlie
10-29-2011, 02:37 PM
Heck I can see it now:
Doc to John.." Hey you have gone past your time limit.
I've got other patients to see.
Get another appointment and we will continue this conversation later.
Can't keep anyone waiting you know". Bad form.

Unless it is a religious issue.

bobbys
10-29-2011, 02:48 PM
It is certainly an issue not germaine to this thread..
.

I suppose there are German's here to but dat aian't perpendiculars to da situation.!

S.V. Airlie
10-29-2011, 02:54 PM
I think it is..But the nti religious crow wins. No exceptions (unless they are religious) for potential delays created by John, Dick and Harry who came first. those delays are okay..