View Full Version : Whatabout the new epoxies??
Dale R. Hamilton
03-08-2005, 02:18 PM
So I dial up www.systemthree.com (http://www.systemthree.com) to see about ordering epoxy for new construction. Granted it been several years since I ordered epoxy- and I always liked System Three stuff. Resin plus hardener, then stuff you mix in for the porpose you need. Now I find they have a new approach- a resin and a hardener with additives- different for each application. So to build a S&G boat you need 4 different resin hardener combinations- for structural joints, lamination, filleting, fairing. They call it Silver tip. I didn't even bother to look up the price. Anybody use this stuff and is there really an advantage in this new formuklation
03-08-2005, 02:41 PM
So many choices was kind of a turn off for me. I'm migrating to MAS.
03-08-2005, 02:46 PM
good choice, Norm...
03-08-2005, 02:59 PM
Looks to me like mostly a marketing overhaul with a couple of new laminating resins and specialty products thrown in. The STR General purpose looks like the same ol' system three I am used to, and T-88 is still available too. The website is slick but somehow uninformative.
03-08-2005, 03:42 PM
I am unwilling to become a "member" to find out what the physical properties are.
Like a lot of other people I use MAS.
03-08-2005, 05:58 PM
I've settled on Mas because of local availability .I think it's worth getting some of the order in their thicker Flag resin . I can see not wanting to stock 4 different products but having a thicker resin for gluing and filleting I find to be a convenience rather than a hassle .
[ 03-08-2005, 06:07 PM: Message edited by: Bill Perkins ]
03-09-2005, 10:55 AM
I talked to System Three about their new Silver Tip products when they first came out. My understanding for the adhesive and fairing putty is that their objective is to minimize the various mixing steps, and allow for more consistent results. The products are specifically designed for amateur use. I believe there is some validity to this approach though I have not used the products. Many amateurs do not work in controlled space or use adequate dust protection when mixing fillers with epoxy. The Silver Tip products eliminate the need to do so when mixing. This is probably safer for the user.
Though I may be wrong, I do not think the adhesive or fairing putty are formulated from the laminating resin system.
I believe they still offer the original resin and hardener products if you prefer them. I have used them for years without problems though not exclusively. I have used epoxy from half a dozen other vendors as well.
Here are the mechanical properties of the laminating resin system: ASTM D638 Tensile strength - 7900 - modulus 390000; ASTM D790 flexural strength - 13000 - modulus 420000; HDT 128 deg F. Toughness is about the same as Gougeon 105/207.
When I last checked with System Three, they had not completed testing on the adhesive or fairing putty. I have no properties for these products.
03-09-2005, 09:11 PM
What is MAS?
03-09-2005, 09:16 PM
Matrix Adhesive System.....
03-13-2005, 12:41 PM
MAS epoxy, hardeners, pumps and fillers are available from www.jamestowndistributors.com. (http://www.jamestowndistributors.com.) 1-800-423-0030.
03-13-2005, 02:18 PM
there are about three types of epoxy resins and about 60 or so different curing agents. Then add 'extra' chemicals and or fillers to adjust properties (including your price and their profit). It's really just an apples to apples comparison and not apples to oranges.
There hasn't been any noteworthy change in epoxy tech. in many years, just new combinations of existing things and overpaid marketing consultants trying to get ther hands deeper into your pockets. Industrially, the removal of solvents in most epoxies is the 'big thing.'
progressive epoxy polymers
Good afternoon. I can't say a thing about the new epoxies. Old farts do not like to change if what they have works well. And, like many of you, I use MAS because my friends use it, a good product mix with different hardener speeds, it does the job, price is fair and a number of distributors in New England can ship it to me in NH without a sales tax in a couple days via UPS.
If I was in business to earn money building boats, no doubt my "materials research department" would be experimenting with the new System Three products to determine cost effectiveness.
At the WB school WEST is used exclusively and I have been happy with WEST as well.
03-13-2005, 03:39 PM
I will be going with MAS again, after using West & System 3.
I liked working with MAS epoxy.
I've used some of the Silver Tip products. The fairing compound is especially nice. Easy to measure and mix.
I think the line is better suited toward larger projects. If you're doing a canoe or kayak, you have to purchase a small amount of each type product and end up with a lot left over. Better to buy general purpose and mix in your own fillers for small projects.
03-17-2005, 06:15 PM
Abe said in an earlier posting:
"At the WB school WEST is used exclusively and I have been happy with WEST as well."
So far as I'm aware, the instructors at WB School do not exclusively use any one epoxy, and I believe Bill Thomas and Sam Devlin use MAS epoxies.
03-17-2005, 07:23 PM
WoodenBoat school will supply instructors with whatever they specify for their class, but they stock West System. I was recently given some Interlux Epiglass by my Kellogg salesman to try out. My specific purpose use was sheathing with dynel. The Epiglass performed much better than either West or MAS. The dynel wetted out much quicker, and didn't try to float. The epiglass also gave a more even nonskid surface if you're looking for that canvassed deck look. I didn't have any System 3 so only made test panels with the aforementioned epoxies. I'll buy the Epiglass for this purpose, but probably stick with West for glueing and fillets. It's what I'm used to. Hell, it took me 20 years to trade my resorcinol in for epoxy. Old dog!
John of Phoenix
03-18-2005, 04:13 PM
I've used both Glen-L and West 5:1 mix ratio with pretty good results though the amine blush is a real pain. I botched the mix on one batch, but it kicked eventually.
On the last boat, a stitch & glue, I used Raka 2:1, no blush hardner and it was a real joy. The 2:1 ratio is very forgiving for mixing (guessing at) small batches and the no blush is a real time saver.
On fillers for fillets, Glen-L has white micro balloons and white silica which mix nicely with sanding dust for color matching if you need to. Purple micros, what can you do with that?
Speaking of fillets, I found the use of peel ply to be a real time saver. I don't care what anyone says, it's impossible to sand a fillet. Lay the goop for the fillet, lay the glass tape, wet it out with neat epoxy, put peel ply over everything and smooth it out. Pull the peel ply the next day and you're DONE.
03-22-2005, 10:36 AM
Greetings! I'm new to posting on this website, but thought I'd add my comments on the SystemThree SilverTip epoxies.
I'm an amateur (backyard) boatbuilder and I've been using the SilverTip epoxies for a few months now. I, like some of you, spent a fair amount of time ruminating on whether to use the SilverTip product, and had the same questions about using so many different formulations to build a boat. I don't like to mix different epoxies from different companies on the same project, so it was going to be all SilverTip or all MAS, or all whatever.
After rereading what I've written below I thought I should add a disclaimer -- I don't work for SystemThree, I just like their product.
I bought the SilverTip trial kit and gave it a try. I thought it worked well and decided to use the SilverTip set of products even though it meant ordering a number of different formulations. I've been really happy with the results so far. Here's what I've found out so far.
SilverTip GelMagic: This stuff, especially the resin, is pretty thick. I've given up trying to use the plastic mustard pumps -- the stuff is just too thick. Maybe in warmer weather it could be pumped, but in cooler weather (50s and 60s) it just doesn't pump. The resin is tinted blue, and it seems that they've tinted the resin a richer blue in the later batches; the hardener is honey colored. The mixture ratio is 2:1 which I find is easier to work with when I'm mixing small batches -- more margin for small errors in measuring. I add the resin to my mixing container (2 parts), then add the hardener (1 part). As you mix the resin and hardener together the blue coloration disappears and the mixture becomes a light amber color. I don't know what they use for the blue color, but when the stuff is thoroughly mixed, the blue is magically gone. One thing I found out is that if you think you really do mix epoxy well before using, this stuff actually shows you how well you mix it. (I found out I usually scrape the sides of the container well when I mix, but I don't stir the bottom very well. With the blue color you can clearly see what you haven't mixed well if you use a clear plastic container.) It spreads well, and I haven't had any problems with sagging, etc.
SilverTip Laminating Resin: This stuff is much thinner than the Gel and is close to crystal clear. It can be spread with a brush or roller as other epoxies can be. There is no color to either the resin or the hardener. Again the mix ratio is 2:1. I don't see anything in this epoxy formulation that makes it different from the standard epoxy mixes, except maybe a little thinner than some.
I haven't tried the QuickFair or EZ-Fillet yet, so no comments on them, but the tiny batches from the test kit seemed to work well. I have been using the GelMagic for small reinforcing fillets of 1/4" to 3/8" (using smooth wooden tongue depressors for forming the fillet) and haven't had any problems with sagging.
Other stuff: I can't find the SilverTip products in my area so I order it online. Their service has been very good. I really like the coloring of the GelMagic and feel it really does help me thoroughly mix the resin and hardener, and for me the 2:1 ratio lets me feel more comfortable about measuring small batches. One thing I do religiously is to clearly mark each container with the ratio mix, so my resin containers have big 2's on them and the hardener has big 1's on them before I open them the first time. I think this has saved me from a few disasters.
I've learned a lot from others postings. Hope this provides a little more info on the SilverTip stuff.
03-22-2005, 11:21 PM
Posted this under another topic also: its the cheapest price I found and a buddy of mine said it worked great.
$53.56 for 1 gal Resin w/ 0.5 gal Hardener
03-22-2005, 11:29 PM
Originally posted by Dale R. Hamilton:
" ... for structural joints, lamination, filleting, fairing."
That damn fairing ... it always is the odd man out!
Just because it hangs around with Silvertails ... I mean Silvertips, is no reason to trust it.
Trust what you know. It takes years to learn a product.
[ 03-22-2005, 11:32 PM: Message edited by: Wild Wassa ]
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