Whaddaya think of my design so far?

[JimD]

It's all speculative dreaming at the moment because I haven't done any calculations (pending receipt of a design book that shows me how) but this is my shippy little centerboard cutter.

LOD 20'
Beam 7'
DWL 18.5'
Draft 20"
Headroom 4'9"
Ballast 800#s. 400# inside, 400# CB
Sail Area
Main 120
Stay 40
Head 60
220 sq ft total
Construction method: Vee bottom, double chined plywood over sawn frames and bulkheads. Ballast box to be filled with iron/cement.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid169/p8ad0fbab7c1ae6c930795eea89e7ea4d/f402bb15.jpg

Comments, please. Go ahead, guys. I'll still like her no matter what you say :D

[paladin]

slots too small to fly 2 headsails at once......
rudder should be a couple of inches shy of the bottom of the keel....
needs waterproofing or the paper will sink and pencil marks will run.....

[Norske3]

Fine...except I prefer a plumb bow on a small boat....90 degrees at the foot.

[ 05-23-2005, 12:55 PM: Message edited by: Norske3 ]

[JimD]

Originally posted by paladin:
slots too small to fly 2 headsails at once......
There's three feet from tack to tack. Think it'll need more? I was hoping to avoid a longer bowsprit.

rudder should be a couple of inches shy of the bottom of the keel....
Good point, easy to redraw

needs waterproofing or the paper will sink and pencil marks will run.....
It's special water resistant paper and permanent ink. Besides, she's a trailer sailer and will spend a good deal of time out of the water

[JimD]

Originally posted by Norske3:
Fine...except I prefer a plumb bow on a small boat....90 degrees at the foot.I was thinking the same thing. Redrawing the bow will either give her a few more inches of waterline, or leave the waterline as is and shorten the deck or a bit of both. I'll decide which once I start doing serious calculations and find out which works best.

Edited to add 'or a bit of both'

[ 05-23-2005, 01:16 PM: Message edited by: JimD ]

[paladin]

What construction methodology are you considering?

[JimD]

Originally posted by paladin:
What construction methodology are you considering?
Construction method: Vee bottom, double chined plywood over sawn frames and bulkheads. Ballast box to be filled with iron/cement That's about it, basically. Most likely all douglas fir except for brightwork accents, epoxy glued. Plus plenty of screws, nails, bolts, as required. There will be a batten at the chines. The backbone would be epoxy laminated fir. Frames sawn from standard clear fir lumber with plywood gussets. Bulkheads to be fir plywood, framed with solid stock so the side and bottom panels will have something to fix to. All sheathed in a fabric as yet to be decided. I've only used fiberglass up to now but think its time to broaden my horizons and go with dynel, maybe, for the extra abrasion resistance it's said to have.

[Gary E]

The shape looks ok, but my only concern is that it's to small. I remember sailing a 19 ft Lightning with no cabin, what you have there is a lot less room for people.
ummm... maybe I'z wrong, maybe it's intended for midgitz...

[JimD]

Originally posted by Gary E:
The shape looks ok, but my only concern is that it's to small. I remember sailing a 19 ft Lightning with no cabin, what you have there is a lot less room for people.
ummm... maybe I'z wrong, maybe it's intended for midgitz...Yes, its small, but I have to place serious limits on size. I can't afford a bigger boat and my lifestyle doesn't require one. The cabin width is 5'9", the sole measures 3'x5' with 5' headroom under the hatch and a few inches less going forward, including comfortable sitting headroom over the pillow end of the berth. The berth is 6.5 feet long. My wife and I are both 5'8" so this should be comfortable enough for weekend cruising around BC's Gulf Islands which is where we plan to move in a year or two.

[ 05-23-2005, 02:08 PM: Message edited by: JimD ]

[Gary E]

Jim,
Before I would comit to building anything I would rent something simular size, I am of the school of "in for a penny in for a pound".. a little bit bigger in all directions is not gona cost much more, and it will still be able to live on a trailer if you want.

[John E Hardiman]

Construction method: Vee bottom, double chined plywood over sawn frames and bulkheads.
Be very careful with the forefoot and fore chines or the twist will become undevelopable. Some rake is needed.

[Venchka]

Originally posted by JimD:
[QUOTE]...broaden my horizons and go with dynel, maybe, for the extra abrasion resistance it's said to have.Take a tip from our own paladin and Tom Lathrop: "Go Xynole, young man." One and a half revolutions of the Earth says something about it's long term durability.

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D

[Roger Long]

Bows look lower in 3D than on paper because they are farther away. If you build her like that, she will actually look as though the stern is higher than the bow. If she is broad hipped as well, the appearance will be even more unfortunate.

You may as well shorten that run. Without the buoyancy to support the load of people in the cockpit, the stern will go down and the drag of the immersed transom will be greater than the sorter run. As long as flow lines don't exceed 15 degrees, the shape doesn't matter a lot. Look at a fast boat like this Cal 28 to see what you can get away with.

Cal 28 (http://home.maine.rr.com/rlma/Boat4.htm)

[JimD]

Thanks for the tip, Roger. Drop by this thread anytime! :D

[JimD]

Originally posted by Venchka:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by JimD:

...broaden my horizons and go with dynel, maybe, for the extra abrasion resistance it's said to have.Take a tip from our own paladin and Tom Lathrop: "Go Xynole, young man." One and a half revolutions of the Earth says something about it's long term durability.

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D </font>I wuz going to mention Xynole but I couldn't remember how to spell it

[JimD]

Originally posted by Gary E:
Jim,
Before I would comit to building anything I would rent something simular size, I am of the school of "in for a penny in for a pound".. a little bit bigger in all directions is not gona cost much more, and it will still be able to live on a trailer if you want.That kind of thinking can get a fella in trouble.

Edited to add: If I were to make a boat any bigger it would be for the purpose of providing standing headroom. That's tough to do on a relatively shallow draft boat. It would mean a very tall wheelhouse type cabin which would probably make her a poor sailer, unless it was much, much bigger all around. It might work for a motor sailer with limited sailing ability. I've looked at that possibity and have decided against.

[ 05-23-2005, 03:14 PM: Message edited by: JimD ]

[JimD]

Originally posted by John E Hardiman:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Construction method: Vee bottom, double chined plywood over sawn frames and bulkheads.
Be very careful with the forefoot and fore chines or the twist will become undevelopable. Some rake is needed.</font>[/QUOTE]I'll mock it all up in cardboard or 1/8 inch plywood models as I go along to avoid that.

[Gary E]

Ok... try outlining that cockpit space and cabin with rope on your living room floor. Then STAY IN IT for all of ONE DAY... betcha cant doit.

I would think the trouble your gona be in if you built it a little to small is much more than the trouble of a little more creature comfort.

[JimD]

Originally posted by Gary E:
Ok... try outlining that cockpit space and cabin with rope on your living room floor. Then STAY IN IT for all of ONE DAY... betcha cant doit.

I would think the trouble your gona be in if you built it a little to small is much more than the trouble of a little more creature comfort.We have camped in tents even smaller many times. The cabin is for sleeping and taking turns getting out of the weather while underway. The cockpit benches are 6 1/2 feet for stretching out and Cathy is a whiz with a sewing machine so I'm sure we'll have a Deusenberg (sp) of a boom tent as well.

Edited to add. It's very unlikely we'll ever be days at sea. This is for island hopping. Cowichan Bay to Salt Spring Island isn't likely to test our patience.

[ 05-23-2005, 03:45 PM: Message edited by: JimD ]

[PVanderwaart]

slots too small to fly 2 headsails at once...I think something a little more definite is needed than a squint at a drawing. Do we have a rule of thumb about cutter sails? Certainly the cut of the topsail matters a lot; there are comments somewhere on Ted Brewer's web site.

[JimD]

Originally posted by PVanderwaart:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />
slots too small to fly 2 headsails at once...I think something a little more definite is needed than a squint at a drawing. Do we have a rule of thumb about cutter sails? Certainly the cut of the topsail matters a lot; there are comments somewhere on Ted Brewer's web site.</font>[/QUOTE]I'm a little short on rules at the moment but I hope to be learning a few more soon. If it turns out the bowsprit would need to be much longer then I would rather just change the way the sails function, meaning if it were not suitable as a true cutter without a four foot bowsprit then I would turn the yankee into a genny and make her a sloop with a choice of jibs such as dudley dix has done with the Cape Cutter 19 and Cape Henry 21.

[ 05-23-2005, 05:01 PM: Message edited by: JimD ]

[Meerkat]

Originally posted by paladin:
slots too small to fly 2 headsails at once......
Slot looks generous enough to me...?

What do you consider a big enough slot? :confused:

[paladin]

Meer...sorta like a biplane....wings too close to each other will cause a stall on certain points of sail.....such as a Fokker triplane was outperformed by a similar aircraft with only two wings and top and bottom ailerons......you need room fer the air to go through without causing "burbles" and loss of lift.

and Jim...why not build a Cape Cutter 19 or 21...

[ 05-23-2005, 08:21 PM: Message edited by: paladin ]

[JimD]

and Jim...why not build a Cape Cutter 19 or 21... I think designing my own is just one of those things I have to try so when its my turn to journey into the afterlife I can go with a grin on my ugly face. :cool:

[JimD]

Meer...sorta like a biplane....wings too close to each other will cause a stall on certain points of sail.....such as a Fokker triplane was outperformed by a similar aircraft with only two wings and top and bottom ailerons......you need room fer the air to go through without causing "burbles" and loss of lift.
I think this much is understood. The question is how much space is enough to prevent 'burbles' so that air flowing through the slot can both stretch over the leading edge of the staysail and still backfill the headsail (Edited to add: Er, something like that). Its a question I'll have to find the answer to before making a final decision on the sail plan.

[ 05-23-2005, 08:42 PM: Message edited by: JimD ]

[paladin]

I know the feeling.....

[Meerkat]

Now I'm really lost - the Folker "tri" out-performed most of the biplanes of it's day! At least the combat records suggest this!

I thought you where referring to the slot between the headstay and the forestay?

[JimD]

Pretend the lowest wing is the mainsail, the middle one is the stay, and the upper one is the heads'l. Have at 'er, lads.
:D http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid169/p16efac5c11e8f6441fd749226b88bc75/f40108ba.jpg

[paladin]

a poor tool in the hands of a master......i have played the game with sopwith camels, fokker triplanes and several others...expert pilots all...and have been "shot down" once....flying a Bucker jungmeister....my plane wasn't faster but I could turn inside tighter with a much faster control response.....

[JimD]

Sopwith Camel. No burbles on this baby.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid169/p022d484b3b21bfad7cdaf4ff8a6037c2/f400e56f.jpg


In the hands of an experienced pilot the Camel could out maneuver any contemporary airplane, with the possible exception of the Fokker Triplane.

[paladin]

The top speed on these birds wuz about 160 across the board.....but the wings are sorta flat on the bottom as was the designs of the day. A favorite trick was to get on the tail of your opponent...and with speeds well matched, the only thing to do was outmaneuver...
the jungmeister was first a training aircraft with symmetrical wings and ailerons top and bottom.
if your opponent watched your tail feathers he could tell by the rudder or horizontal stabilizer what your next move would be...and the resulting delay of the airframe would give your persuer an edge.....
the Bucker jungmeister was a very unstable aircraft in that if you twitched to make a move, the airplane was already responding, and with a symetrical wing could fly in almost any attitude, and also the fuel and oil pumps were setup for inverted flight....virtually all the other aircraft could not sustain inverted flight for very long or the oil sump would drain and the engine would quite due to fuel starvation...sooooo,......if you wuz really good at precision aerial manuevers.......you could beat a superior pilot at his own game...
a problem with most american pilots...they wuz trained to break right when flying in combat with their wing man...against an experienced pilot like Von richthofen, the average inexperienced pilot didn't stand a chance...same with american pilots against the Zero Sen fighter..it was much faster and when breaking the zero could outclimb and outmaneuver all but the most experienced pilots...so..new techniques were developed like breaking left or split "s"ing out to get the dude off your tail feathers....sorry Jim...didn't wanna hijack your thread....

[paladin]

a flexible polyester type fabric...more abrasion resistance than fiberglass and easier to apply than vectra or dynel.....

[JimD]

....sorry Jim...didn't wanna hijack your thread.... No problemo. Sometimes ya just gotta fly with your ideas.

I'll redraw with a few changes including sections with chines and repost.

[outofthenorm]

I've played around a lot with double and triple headsails and discovered that the spread of the sheeting base is one of the most critical elements in getting it to work. The sheeting point for the jib has to be far enough outboard of the staysail's point so that even when you're sheeted in hard, the width of the slot remains constant. If the clew of the jib pinches in towards the staysail, the staysail stalls and you're a sitting duck. In practice, you usually have to ease each sheet as you go forward - if the staysail is in 100%, the jib is at 95%, and the jib topsail (as I call it) is at 90%. Therefore, the sails have to be cut flatter and flatter as you go fwd.

The fore and aft spread on your design looks okay to me.

One other thing - I assume you're building in a tabernacle of some sort, so iif you can get by with just 2 shrouds and the fwd one is in-line with or abaft the mast, it will be a lot easier to get the mast down.

Oh, and one more - that second reef looks pretty deep. I'd think that if the wind were strong enough to need that kind of reduction, you'd be better off with bare poles or staysail alone.

I'm looking fwd to the next version.
-Norm

[ 05-24-2005, 08:47 AM: Message edited by: outofthenorm ]

[Venchka]

Shorten the foot of the main 18". Leave the boom alone.
Set the gaff to mast angle at 25 degrees. Lengthen the gaff and the head of the main. Gaff about 12"-14" longer than the head of the sail.
Loose the roach. 4 1/2"-5" max. 3 battens.
2 reefs at 3'-0" each. That reduces sail area on a sail this size about 30 sq. ft. for each reef.
How much area to do you reckon is in the main? Jib? Staysail?

Buy proper size drafting paper. Draw at a decent scale. If/when you get it perfect you can take off dimensions for the real thing. Buy more erasers. :D

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D

[Alan D. Hyde]

Two things:

If you're going to have a plumb bow, and don't wish to have a wet foredeck, and an increased tendency to pitchpole in bad weather, then you should carry a respectable amount of flare in your forward sections.

A centerboard adds trouble, and takes away space. I'd figure a way to dispense with it if I could. If you want shallow draft, there's something to be said for bilge keels.

Alan

[John B]

Jim ,I don't really understand why you don't like bowsprits.
Personally, I'd like to see your mast a bit further forward for more mainsail and I would operate the boat as a sloop. Cutter headsail rigs can be made to operate well but really.. its much easier to get performance out of one big sail over than 2 small ones. Speaking generally, sail areas were split to make handling simpler. You aren't going to have that issue because even a 110 % jib isn't big on your boat.
What sort of conditions prevail where you plan to use the boat. any constant... or is it like here.. leave in 10...come back in 25knots. :D

Norm, I've spent a lot of time getting 2 headsails to work myself ,and where I agree with your comments about the sheeting base , I'm puzzled by your comment about going flatter as you go forward. My experience is that a staysail must be flat to work inside a jib..., and the jib should have the appropriate camber for the conditions ( I mean normal).

Mind you.. I've never set 3 headsails :D

[Venchka]

Originally posted by John B:
Jim ,I don't really understand why you don't like bowsprits.
Personally, I'd like to see your mast a bit further forward for more mainsail and I would operate the boat as a sloop. :D That's the sound of the echo travelling from The Swamp to EnZed and back again. ;)

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D

[outofthenorm]

Originally posted by John B:


Norm, I've spent a lot of time getting 2 headsails to work myself ,and where I agree with your comments about the sheeting base , I'm puzzled by your comment about going flatter as you go forward. My experience is that a staysail must be flat to work inside a jib..., and the jib should have the appropriate camber for the conditions ( I mean normal).

Mind you.. I've never set 3 headsails :D John, you are right of course, that the staysail has to be fairly flat. My boat is a 28 ft gaff cutter with three, count 'em three headsails, a gaff tops'l and running backstays. (A guest once told me that when I tack it looks like some kind of ninja rodeo ballet), My staysail is conventionally cut but has very little built in draft. The jib is mitre cut and it's about flat as a board. The jib topsail is also mitre-cut, completely flat and even has a hollow luff that compensates for a lack of topstay tension. An eight foot bowsprit will do that to you. :D I've found that I have to ease the jib and jib-top sheets a bit more than I would if the staysail wasn't there. So when going upwind, if they were cut full (or normal) they would lose drive for sure.
- Norm

[John B]

Wayne. :D

Norm,I was wondering if that was the reason. I even typed it and deleted it because I couldn't explain myself in a clear fashion. :D .happens a bit to me.
Rodeo ninja ballet eh.Thats a good description.I'll use that if I may. We have a few strings on our boat too but I narrowed down the ones we have to work by making the staysail self tacking.Backstays are on levers and I'm getting a bit casual about them anyway.
have you any photos of your boat? It'd be worth a seperate thread!

[JimD]

Originally posted by Venchka:
Shorten the foot of the main 18". Leave the boom alone.
Set the gaff to mast angle at 25 degrees. Lengthen the gaff and the head of the main. Gaff about 12"-14" longer than the head of the sail.
Loose the roach. 4 1/2"-5" max. 3 battens.
2 reefs at 3'-0" each. That reduces sail area on a sail this size about 30 sq. ft. for each reef.
...

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D Why?

[JimD]

Originally posted by Venchka:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by John B:
Jim ,I don't really understand why you don't like bowsprits.
Personally, I'd like to see your mast a bit further forward for more mainsail and I would operate the boat as a sloop. :D That's the sound of the echo travelling from The Swamp to EnZed and back again. ;)

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D </font>[/QUOTE]I seem to recall from Sailing Alone Around The World that at one stop in his trip Slocum cut off a goodly part of Spray's bowsprit. Later, he said the only thing he regetted was that he did not cut off more of it. It seems some folks just don't like having their jib tacked to the end of a long pole sticking out the front of their boats. People are strange.

[JimD]

Originally posted by Alan D. Hyde:
Two things:

If you're going to have a plumb bow, and don't wish to have a wet foredeck, and an increased tendency to pitchpole in bad weather, then you should carry a respectable amount of flare in your forward sections.

A centerboard adds trouble, and takes away space. I'd figure a way to dispense with it if I could. If you want shallow draft, there's something to be said for bilge keels.

AlanThe preliminary plan calls for a respectable amount of flare, for just the reasons you've given. I don't mind centerboards, but I like the idea of bilge keels, too. The design and engineering involved with bilge keels is completely unfamiliar to me, but definitely worth looking into.

[JimD]

One other thing - I assume you're building in a tabernacle of some sort, so iif you can get by with just 2 shrouds and the fwd one is in-line with or abaft the mast, it will be a lot easier to get the mast down.
My current sloop has this arrangement and as you say, its a breeze to step the mast. I think I drew three shrouds because I thought it looked salty, without thinking of the extra work it creates.

[John B]

Yes, they're widowmakers for sure. The sort of reason for the development of the knockabout.
But again.. 'modern' inventions like the wykham martin furler or even ( ducks below table ) a modern furling gear makes them pretty safe. I seldom go out on mine. photos. or racing we have one big jib we set on the headstay that needs it.

[JimD]

Yes, they're widowmakers for sure... John B, your quote (which I edited to keep the choice bit) sums it up quite nicely. A bowsprit of a couple feet, wide plank style, with a sturdy pulpit is about all I'm willing to do. Any more is just a pain in the backside as far as I'm concerned, furlers or no.

[ 05-24-2005, 09:47 PM: Message edited by: JimD ]

[Venchka]

Originally posted by JimD:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Yes, they're widowmakers for sure... John B, your quote (which I edited to keep the choice bit) sums it up quite nicely. A bowsprit of a couple feet, wide plank style, with a sturdy pulpit is about all I'm willing to do. Any more is just a pain in the backside as far as I'm concerned, furlers or no.</font>[/QUOTE]No worries. I've been suggesting that since forever. Is the #1 jib tacked 27" forward of the stemhead beyond discussion? The #2 jib set flying and tacked at the stemhead? Does this float your boat? Don't set both headsails at the same time and Bob's your uncle, you've got a nice secure gaff sloop.

Why modify the main? I'm gently nudging you in the direction of a mainsail of proven proportions and about 150 sq. ft. If you need more area, that's easy after you get the shape right. There's WAY too much roach in the main now.

Did you see the Atkin Milford on eBay?

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D

[JimD]

The roach on the main is easy to get rid of. But first check out the roach on the dudley dix cc19 and ch21. Lots of it. Actually, I just drew it that way for the heck of it. Also, I'm not as certain as you (I'm talkin' to Wayne, here :D ) about the 'proven' shape for a gaff main. Looking at proven designs there seems to be a huge variation is shape. As said in the original post the main is now around 120 sq ft and another 100 in the fore triangle. I don't want to go much larger in the main. 130 max. 150 for the main is likely more than I want. I wish to avoid a large powerful main. I want the sail plan broken down into smaller, bit sized pieces and I want the overall sail plan to be conservative. In the drawing posted the staysail tack is about a foot aft of the stemhead. This was to allow enough slot between it and the yankee. So far the sailplan is quite arbitrary and open to change. The sloop idea has always been a serious option and is starting to sound more and more likely.

[Venchka]

Nudge...

http://www.users.bigpond.com/islesdesign/rainbird_sp.jpg

Rainbird (http://www.users.bigpond.com/islesdesign/rainbird.html)

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D

[Meerkat]

"Rainbird" is quite interesting, although why one would build such a big boat with such limited headroom escapes me...

Even so, with a stub keel to house the c/b, it would be quite an interesting boat!

[Venchka]

Our approach with the "Rainbird" was to design a fairly stiff hull shape that gives good ability to carry the sail area combined with high topsides amidships that will tend to "roll the boat back on its feet" should it be knocked down. We feel that a boat should be buoyant to lift either end to a sea and keep the deck structures out of green water - it is deck structures that tend to be weak and to leak.

For heavy weather sailing the rig would be snugged down to the staysail and double-reefed mainsail - balanced but near the centre of the boat. The ability to snug down for a blow combined with her range of stability make the "Rainbird" certainly suitable for the coastal and only limited for blue water work by her restricted ability to carry stores.

The cabin is designed as the smallest space a couple could comfortably live in for more than a couple of weeks based on Murray's own experience of living aboard boats for some six years before taking up full-time designing. She has 1.35 metres (4' 5") headroom throughout the cabin.
Wayne
In the Swamp. :D

[ 06-11-2005, 07:10 PM: Message edited by: Venchka ]

[Meerkat]

Ok...shorty! :D

[Venchka]

And the headroom in the Cape Henry 21, Cape Cutter 19, Golant Gaffer, Cornish Shrimper, Cornish Crabber, Shoal Waters, Grey Seal, Eun Mara, Wee Seal Mk. II, etc. is how much? Jim's design brief calls for 4'-9" headroom. Starting with the Rainbow plans and increasing the headroom 4" might be a better solution than reinventing the wheel, No?

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D

[Meerkat]

"Rainbird" is 22' LOD and so is the "Falmouth 22". The Falmouth 22 has 5'11" headroom or 6'6" if you want the "tall" option.

[L.W. Baxter]

Draft, Meerkat. Draft.

[Meerkat]

Originally posted by L.W. Baxter:
Draft, Meerkat. Draft.Close the door! ;)

The Falmouth 22's maximum draft is actually less then that of the Rainbird, albeit fixed! ;)

[Tim Diebert]

Great Thread. I love your design so far Jim. It appeals to my personal slants very much. Most of your requirement are much how mine would be for a boat in that size range.....and we are practically neighbours as well. Must be the clean air.

My 2 Canuckelite cents worth.
I would go with a standing headstay then a single wired headsail on a downhaul system to easily change sails. On my little gaffer I do this and run a jib and a bigger lapper. Then I have an inner stay for a wired storm staysail that I clip to a spot just aft of the stem head. Easy to get at. I leave a 2nd halyard in place for this.
Occasionally I sail the same water as a chap with a cutter and he runs two headsails most of the time. Looks to be a royal pain. smile.gif My lapper with a full or single reefed main is a great combo.
Also, if it was my boat, I would increase the size of the main a bit (roach or no), make the boom longer and the head would be a lower more traditional angle...more a gaffer than a gunter. From what I have read, there is no marked improvement to wind with the higher peeked gaff. This way, with the more traditional gaff shape you have the option of setting a topsail. This would be grand for those light days :D
One last comment I would make is that (I believe someone else brought this up) is that there is nothing more aggravating than reef points too far apart. You end up not reefing when you really should, because there is not enough power in the next reef. I know this from experience. A fellow who I really respect told me that on a boat of this size with a gaff main the reef points should reduce by 20% each time. I made my new sails this way and it is perfect. I am now just putting in a third set. They are IMHO just the correct amount at a 20% reduction each time.

I really like the size, layout and look of what you have drawn. Looking forward to the 2nd instalment.
Oh, and if it could be gotten away with...and not that it is that important....but I would love the look of a bluff bow as well. Just personal taste is all.

Tim in BC

[Meerkat]

When considering bluff bows, keep in mind you have to bend plywood to fit it. Also, I recall seeing something about plywood and plumb bows not mixing. There were pics and I wish I could find it again.

[Venchka]

Originally posted by Meerkat:
"Rainbird" is 22' LOD and so is the "Falmouth 22". The Falmouth 22 has 5'11" headroom or 6'6" if you want the "tall" option.
Originally posted by Meerkat:
"Rainbird" is quite interesting, although why one would build such a big boat with such limited headroom escapes me...
A Flicka is 20' LOD with similar headroom. Trailering either the Falmouth Cutter or the Flicka is, how you say, interesting? Neither can be accused of being shoal draft. I was just reading Sam Rabl's book. Sam has a 24' sailboat with full standing headroom. It's appearance is, being as nice as I can, odd. Short, shoal draft and trailerable is one set of parameters. Short, deep, heavy and standing headroom is another can of worms.

Deva vu! I asked the same question about Munro's Egret. The consensus was: Because!

I just downloaded the free study plans from Murray Isles. Very nice. Free. It doesn't get any better than that.

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D

[ 06-11-2005, 11:00 PM: Message edited by: Venchka ]

[JimD]

I've been so busy at work there hasn't been time for boats. Rainbird looks interesting. Something to consider if I get discouraged trying to design my own. More headroom would be nice. On my design I have very close to 5 feet under the companionway, on a 20 foot deck. Incidentally, that comment about weak, leaky decks seems out of place. Sheathed plywood decks aren't weak and don't leak. Flush deck bouyancy is nice, flush deck windage isn't. Always a trade off. As for the headroom of a Falmouth 22 or Glen-L Amigo there isn't much to compare. Completely different hull forms. Meerkat, you know that! :D Perhaps I will end up with an Amigo, redrawn for plywood. Its about 3 1/2 feet draft going by memory. One problem with turning Amigo into a centerboarder might be that there's very little draft to be saved by taking off the full keel as there isn't much of a full keel to take off, depth wise, that is. But it's worth a look. Anyway, its 6 am Sunday and I have to swill back this coffee and head to work. Its all good on the paycheque as they say. Later...

[Venchka]

Be patient. Work a bunch of overtime. John Welsford is doing the brain work for you. The 20' LOD Scout. Coming soon to a plans source near you.

http://www.varuna.co.nz/images/scout.jpg

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D

[Tim Diebert]

So is that the boat Paul spoke of building if/when he sold Varuna?
A 20 foot JW? A shrunken Penguin....
Wow. Niiiice. Sweet.
He's right Jim, let's Johns fingers do the walking.
Although, I am with you on the whole 'wannadesignmyownboatbeforeIdie' deal. :D

[Venchka]

Originally posted by Tim Diebert:
...Although, I am with you on the whole 'wannadesignmyownboatbeforeIdie' deal. :D No worries. Design a tender for the big boat. Way less risk of ending up with a pile of firewood. The bright side is that firewood never goes to waste in the Great White North. :D

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D

[JimD]

I like Scout - give me some ideas :D
Edited to add: I'm thinkin' the tender I design will be a catamaran. The two hulls will double as kayaks.

[ 06-12-2005, 08:43 PM: Message edited by: JimD ]

[Bruce Taylor]

I'm enjoying this thread, Jim. You're sticking your neck way out, and so far it looks like your head is still attached to it.

I like what you've drawn...I like it a lot, actually (the hull at least -- I'd like the rig better w/ the mast stepped further forward...and I agree w/ Wayne about the bowsprit, but of course you don't need to hear that).

Can we see a couple of body sections?

[JimD]

Bruce, I know what you mean about the mast placement. Right now its very close to 2/5ths of the water line, which is typical for cutters which is what I was hoping for. If the mast goes farther forward then the main sail gets bigger and the bowsprit gets much longer if it's to be a cutter and not a sloop, two things I was hoping to avoid. I would prefer that the headsails provide a considerable amount of the power and at the same time keep the bowsprit short which is why is looks the way it presently does. But there's plenty of time for me to get over it and flip flop on my current preferences and prejudices, either by choice or necessity. I have sections drawn up but no time to get around to posting them. She'll be quite full bellied, multichine, perhaps V bottom but more likely a narrow flat bottom panel, wide enough to hang a ballast box from and support the centerboard case on. Time to go to my paying job...

[Tim Diebert]

Not wanting to jump Jim's thread. This is just in case anyone was wondering about the Scout design.... :D

JW's description:


"Hi, thats "Scout", a proposal that I have two customers close to comitting
on, and if they do I'll get the drawings done. The boat is just over 19
ft, has some fixed ballast, centerboard, self draining cockpit, motor in a
half well rather than a bracket off the transom, and is very much in the
same style as my Pathfinder design ( www.jwboatdesigns.co.nz (http://www.jwboatdesigns.co.nz) check out the
design cataloge for a whole familiy of these) . Accommodation is two
seats/bunks down the sides of the cabin so you can seat four or sleep two
with fair sitting headroom, a galley space foreward, and a cockpit large
enough to sleep two more adults if tented. All up displacement about 700 KG
( 1500 lbs) and enough sail area in a choice of two rigs ( cat yawl or gaff
sloop) to make her plane in fresh weather ."

[Aramas]

I don't know what the main part of the accommodation is like, but those pointy-toed berths are really awful. If you can move it aft a bit and get footroom at the base (at least 2 feet, strangely enough smile.gif ) then you'll sleep better and you'll have room for ground tackle in the focsle.

[Meerkat]

Originally posted by Tim Diebert:
So is that the boat Paul spoke of building if/when he sold Varuna?
:eek: When did Paul sell Varuna? :eek:

[Venchka]

Originally posted by Meerkat:

:eek: When did Paul sell Varuna? :eek: Check jwbuilders in the last month. I thought you were our direct link to the world of John Welsford. ;)

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D

[Meerkat]

He hasn't sold her as far as I can tell, just put her up for sale.

BTW, are you taking over for Karen? Same attitude in a lot of your recent posts.

[Venchka]

Never heard of Karen. You did jump to the conclusion that the boat had sold.

Sorry. I'll lighten up. :D

Wayne
Soon to be out on parole from The Swamp. :D

[Meerkat]

Heh, I DID miss the "if" in "if/when" Paul sells...

There is more than meets the eye going on with respect to this, but I can't say any more.

As for "Karen" - you can get SO smug at times: a trait shared with a recently departed bilge poster.

tongue.gif

;) :D

[Venchka]

Originally posted by Meerkat:

As for "Karen" - you can get SO smug at times: a trait shared with a recently departed bilge poster.

tongue.gif

;) :D Honest. Just the facts. I never ever recall reading or hearing of anyone named Karen here.

As for the rest, I said I would lighten up.

Besides, I'll be gone all next week. Miss me? :D

LOL!

Wayne
Looking at the Swamp in my rear view mirror.
:D

[JimD]

I'm gonna miss your smuggness, Wayne :D Just kidding, really. Where are you going?

[Venchka]

Texas. Sailing. Bye, Y'all.

Y'all play nice while I'm gone, ya hear?

Wayne
Eradicating smugness wherever I find it In the Swamp. :D

[Meerkat]

Originally posted by Venchka:
Honest. Just the facts. I never ever recall reading or hearing of anyone named Karen here.
Karen was KM Gresham. Strictly a bilge poster. Her husband, Charles (C. Gresham) has been seen in the more wooden parts of the forum ;)

[Meerkat]

Originally posted by Venchka:
http://www.varuna.co.nz/images/scout.jpg
John's just told me in an email that he's raised the cabin profile by 2" to help accomodate Paul Groome's height.

Even I am beginning to consider the possibilities of Scout! It looks as though one could build a cross-wise bench that would hide the tail of the c/b case, the majority of which looks to be in the cockpit.

It does seem like rather a LOT of boat to beach though.... :eek:

[Meerkat]

Zis thread dead, or just sleeping? ;)

[JimD]

Even I am beginning to consider the possibilities of Scout!...It does seem like rather a LOT of boat to beach though... :eek: Yer jokin', right? If someone else can beach a Norwalk Island Sharpie 43 then surely you can beach a Scout tongue.gif

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid175/p61bb5caf31bd419dba58bf42f904f3e8/f380f479.jpg

[Meerkat]

One has nightmares of beaching at the highest tide of the month and being stuck for a whole month! :eek: Ain't going to move such a heavy boat without a lot of hands and/or machinery!

Have you thought about Scout for your purposes?

[JimD]

All up displacement about 700 KG
( 1500 lbs) and enough sail area in a choice of two rigs ( cat yawl or gaff sloop) to make her plane in fresh weather ." Based on this description I think Scout is closer to what Wayne is looking for. I'm pretty much stuck on the idea that heavier is better, to a point, of course. Maybe I'll get unstuck in that regard one day.

[Meerkat]

I suppose it depends on what your ultimate intended use is. I have (had) dreams of blue water cruising, and they still come calling often (last night in fact), but realistically, something that's up to Puget Sound and points N, with it's drying tidal areas makes a lot of sense. If I can just figure out how to put a heater in...

Trailering Scout to points warmer has it's own allure too. I wonder how much vehicle it would take?

[JimD]

If it's 1500# plus trailer I'm sure 6 cylinders would do it. Tideway is 1900# and a low powered V6 (Mazda B3000 pickup)is all I have to tow with.

[JimD]

If I can just figure out how to put a heater in...

This has got to be a relatively easy thing, no? As for sailing to drying out tidal areas this sounds like a job for bilge fins. Shallow draft and sits upright. Just about all the small Selway Fisher designs come with a bilge fin option, including Tideway.

[Meerkat]

"Small enough" boat heaters are not easy to find!

All I have to tow with is a 1.6 litre 4-banger sedan.

[JimD]

"Small enough" boat heaters are not easy to find!
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid175/pf9c4e13883f87cddf26158684f4fcdb5/f380a516.jpg

I've always thought I'd like something like this solid fuel stove/heater. About a cubic foot, but it weighs 40# and it's several hundred dollars for a new one.

Propane would probably be the smallest, cheapest way to go, but not a very good choice for the PNW

[ 06-28-2005, 07:16 PM: Message edited by: JimD ]

[Meerkat]

Several hundred dollars indeed! If that's the stove I think it is, it will mortally wound a thousand dollar bill (US$ even!) - you might get $US100 back.

Propane or any liquid fuel stove will pump too much water vapour into the cabin, but perhaps that's what you were referring to about the PNW.

The best one I've found thus far is a Canadian product: the Dickinson Marine Newport Propane Fireplace.

http://www.dickinsonmarine.com/shop5/images/heaters-newportP.jpg

It has the virtue of pulling combustion air from outside and venting outside too, via the use of a coaxial chimmney. (Just noticed that the price is up about $200 compared to 2 years ago! Drat!). It too will put a serious dent in a thousand, but it will leave enough for 1-2 weekends aboard. ;)

I'm concerned that the smallest boat it will fit in is larger than the largest boat I'm interested in/we're talking about. Sigh.

They do fit some pretty small spots though...
http://www.dickinsonmarine.com/images/heaters/images/heater-8.jpg

[Meerkat]

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid175/pf9c4e13883f87cddf26158684f4fcdb5/f380a516.jpg

Yup, a Navigator "Sardine" - $US1130 porcelinized (as shown), but "only" $650 in plain cast iron.

Interestingly, some or all of the Navigator stoves meet WA state requirements for installation in land dwellings with an "outside air" kit.

Navigator Stove Works (http://www.marinestove.com/index.htm)

[JimD]

Yup, the H2O from propane is what I meant. The problem with the heaters is you can't cook on them. For a small boat it would have to do double duty. That's what I like about the Navigator. And dry heat, too. I'm starting to keep my eye open at flee markets and garage sale for little wood burning stove top type thingamajiggers that might do just as well.

[Meerkat]

There's a european (Danish, Swedish?) stove that looks and works like a 2 burner, ovenless cooktop that has an attachment that allows air to be blown over a heat exchanger while the exhaust goes on out a chimney. I'm sure it's a great idea, but it didn't do much for me.

Comparing a Tideway 14 to a Golant Gaffer 18'9", is it the length and weight that bother you?

IMO, the GG has the best interior layout I've ever seen on a small cabin boat. Quite "SWMBO friendly" with an enclosed head and all.

Oh yeah, wrt to heating vs. cooking, I've come to the conclusion that I'll end up with a separate appliance for each purpose.

[paladin]

Just a couple of remarks....
about weak decks.....even though the deck is plywood and covered with xynole, dynel or glass and epoxy doesn't mean it is not weak. The sidedeck to cabin base joint is inherently weak in a sailboat, and further more so because USUALLY the house is built to much lighter specs than the hull. Additionally...hatches and other structual areas are weak compared to the hull. This is not much of a consideration for trailer sailers and coastal cruisers, but when you venture offshore there is always the distinct possibility that the top may become the bottom and vice versa.....in which case leaks get bigger, quicker.......and embarrassing.

[JimD]

Comparing a Tideway 14 to a Golant Gaffer 18'9", is it the length and weight that bother you? Sorry, but I'm having a hard time finding much ground for comparison. They are different in just about every way. To begin with the GG is so much more boat overall but if I were to have a boat anything like a GG it would have a cabin about a foot taller. I'm very close to buying plans for the Tideway, just want to have a final look at the study plans first. I figure if I get a start on construction this fall it could be in the water next summer. A GG would probably take me many times longer to build and it would get discouraging for me. I don't want to labour for years on my weekends to make a head turning beauty such as a GG. I want a solid, inexpensive, quick to build pocket cruiser with a bit of tradition thrown in, such as a gaff rig. Everything about Tideway's construction is so straight forward. As a credible mini cruiser Tideway is perfect for the builder who is seriously constrained by factors of money, time, and to a lesser extent, woodworking talent. I'd build the Amigo before a GG. It would probably take about as much time and money and the Amigo would be more of what I want.

Edited to add: In the mean time the Tideway will keep me happy for the time it takes me to design my own idea of a dream boat.

[ 06-28-2005, 08:35 PM: Message edited by: JimD ]

[JimD]

Originally posted by paladin:
Just a couple of remarks....
about weak decks.....even though the deck is plywood and covered with xynole, dynel or glass and epoxy doesn't mean it is not weak. The sidedeck to cabin base joint is inherently weak in a sailboat, and further more so because USUALLY the house is built to much lighter specs than the hull. Additionally...hatches and other structual areas are weak compared to the hull. This is not much of a consideration for trailer sailers and coastal cruisers, but when you venture offshore there is always the distinct possibility that the top may become the bottom and vice versa.....in which case leaks get bigger, quicker.......and embarrassing.Good points, and ones I have given much consideration to. Even if building a very small boat such as Tideway it will be built strong everywhere. I would do all that is possible to avoid such embarassment.

[paladin]

...but do not confuse strength with excess weight.....take care....

[Meerkat]

A coastal cruiser isn't going to be at all happy to take a breaking wave against the base of his/her cabin either. The plus side is that shore is closer, which is not much consolation to me.

Is it the carlin that runs fore and aft at the deck/cabin join? I've read that it needs to be good and strong. Charles Stock built a sort of I-beam arrangement for "Shoal Waters".

Of course, a flush-decker is a stronger boat than a coach roofed boat.

[JimD]

Tideway has no side decks.

[Meerkat]

True, but she does have a cabin structure that stands above the hull and looks, from the thumbnail, to be more lightly built than the hull.

[JimD]

Mine will be strong as an ox :D

[Meerkat]

http://www.selway-fisher.com/Tideway14d1.gif

Good for you! smile.gif

Do you have to get the study plans from Paul before you can send them on to me, or did you ask Paul to send them direct?

[JimD]

Meerkat, I had them both sent to me. I'll forward a set to you as soon as they get here

[Meerkat]

Once again, thank you kindly! smile.gif

[JimD]

The study plans for the Rathlin 20 include the sail measurements, areas, CEs, all the info I think will be needed to play around with the sail plan and come up with a yawl, as well as a basic materials list, and the drawings are plenty large enough to measure how the interior stacks up for headroom, berths, stove/heater, etc. So I expect the same will be true for the Tideway study plans. This will be fun!

[Meerkat]

Aye, that it will! And if you start one, you really must do a blow by blow pictorial/narative for me, Paul Fisher and the rest of the sf-builders forum on yahoo! smile.gif

Tideway gets mentioned rarely there, but it does get mentioned! A couple of guys have said, IIRC, that they started theirs, but there's never been any followup nor pics. I solicited some info (maybe last year?) and there were zero responses.

Who knows: If I like it and can somehow come up with $, we can both build at the same time (that is, if my friend with the building space is OK with it).

BTW, the ballast calls for cement and iron scrap. I don't like that idea: cement attracts moisture. Sam Devlin uses lead shot and epoxy for his ballast. Dunno what mass quantities of lead shot cost though - or even if it's still available, what with Ducks Unlimited and other efforts to keep lead out of the environment. Maybe we can find some depleted uranium LOL

Oh yeah - I think we're already having fun! smile.gif

[Venchka]

Lead: Used tire weights. Start scrounging. Make the rounds of tire dealers. Ask them to save the weights for you. Melt into pigs or hammer into a lump. By all means, SECURE them mechanically in the box keel. I would not trust epoxy alone to hold the lead in place. The higher density of lead will take up less space and move the C.G. lower. A good thing. There might be enough space left over in the box for a battery or two. OR, room in the box to store fresh water. Either way, you get heavy stuff down low. A good thing.

Chuck's right about weight up high. Strong is good. Make it smart strong, not excess weight strong. Paul Fisher probably already made it plenty strong for the places he had in mind for the boat. Doing a bit of math, 1,900-700 = 1,200. That's a stoutly built 14' boat. Even if there is the weight of crew and stores in the 1,900 displacement, it's still a stoutly built 14' boat. Trust the designer. He knows.

The trailer will need brakes. If you don't make the sails yourself, talk to Brad Hunter of Gambell & Hunter Sailmakers. Brad makes great sails at very affordable prices. Tell him I sent you. I need the commission. NOT! I'm kidding!

I have erased all worries about SA/D, D/L, LWL and uncomfortable motion from my brain. You want it? You build it! One thing is "for sure and for certain": She gets to carry the beer! The extra weight won't matter. :D

Enjoy!

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D

[ 06-29-2005, 10:06 AM: Message edited by: Venchka ]

[Venchka]

Tideway 14 dimensions, an educated guess.

Jib: 35 sq. ft.
Main: 100 sq. ft.

Bottom of keel to top of hatch: 6'-0"
Seated headroom over bunk: 2'-7"
LWL: 13'-0"
Bowsprit: 2'-6" :D

A chunk of lead 9 1/2" x 3" x 5'-0" long weighs 700 pounds and only takes up about 1/3 of the height of the box keel. The C.G. will be lower than steel/concrete.

Let me know if I'm close.

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D

[ 06-29-2005, 05:41 PM: Message edited by: Venchka ]

[Venchka]

nudge

[JimD]

You'll be the first to know, Wayne :D

[Meerkat]

I say, keep him in the dark and feed him aligator jerky! ;) :D

[JimD]

I see all the usual suspects have been rounded up. My yawl version will be something like 80 for the main, 20 for the mizzen, and 40 for the jib. Regarding headroom I will need at least 34 inches from my butt to the cabin roof so one way or another I will make it so. The retractable bowsprit may end up even longer than the plans call for since the mast will have to be stepped farther forward. But that'll be no problem as the mast will be keel stepped and unstayed, or at least without a forstay, allowing the bowsprit to be retracted while undersail if necessary.

[Meerkat]

:eek: :eek: :eek:

Jim? Jim Who? ;) tongue.gif :D

[JimD]

Originally posted by Meerkat:
:eek: :eek: :eek:

Jim? Jim Who? ;) tongue.gif :D Ok, I don't get it! Do you mean JimD sailed over the horizon in his ill conceived vessel never to be seen again? :eek: Not a chance! I'll show you all! :D

[Venchka]

Originally posted by Meerkat:
I say, keep him in the dark and feed him aligator jerky! ;) :D No worries. I've got the 15' LWL version sussed out.

Jim---Jib, right? Bow sprit, right? No forestay? Eh? Or no seperate forestay, jib luff siezed on wire and roller furling? You're gonna need something to hold the mast up. Tideway has a wishbone rig. My first boat had a similar arrangement. I know for a fact that if the forestay comes loose the mast comes down. Been there. It wasn't pretty.

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D

[Meerkat]

Where did you get the idea that Tideway has a wishbone rig?

15' LWL version of what?

[Meerkat]

Jim; Have you talked over any of these ideas with Paul Fisher?

[JimD]

Tideway has a wishbone rig. My first boat had a similar arrangement. I know for a fact that if the forestay comes loose the mast comes down What on Earth are you talking about, man!? How is a mast going to just fall down if it is stepped through the deck down to the keel? Stress from the sails may break it but it's certainly not going to just fall down.

Edited to add: More than likely the bowsprit will not be retracted while sailing as I really have no idea if that's feasable without a overly heavy mast but I'd guess that if the mains'l were first doused it wouldn't be a problem. It's late and I'm having fun. But I do intend to have a keel stepped mast, much stronger than deck stepped. It can't fall down.

[ 06-30-2005, 12:53 AM: Message edited by: JimD ]

[Meerkat]

BTW, if the sail plan is anywhere near that of the Stevenson Weekender, that might be an inexpensive source for sails and maybe even rigs.

For my money and peace of mind, I'd choose a stayed rig, with a headstay separate from the jib stay - double insurance.

I may even see if I can put a "Happy"-type rig on the Tideway hull, complete with a-frame bow and boomkin... ;)

[JimD]

I may even see if I can put a "Happy"-type rig on the Tideway hull, complete with a-frame bow and boomkin None of that boomkin for me. A retractable bowsprit and most likely a forestay and a single shroud P & S. I'll figure out a simple outhaul for the jib, no furler.

[Meerkat]

I prefer a mast in a tabernacle if it's going to live on a trailer. Masts are heavy and ackward.

Also, keel stepped masts have the problem of sealing the cabin entry point.

[Venchka]

Damn, it's late. I'm sorry. I totally missed that. Ok, so the tabernackle thingie is toast?

Meerkat: I count 2 shrouds, 1 forestay, no spreaders = wishbone rig where I come from. Exactly the same as my little keelboat way back when, only that boat had a Marconi main and 3/4 fractional rig with a a two part adjustable backstay and decked stepped mast. I suppose you could call it a tripod rig. Structurally the wires form a tripod to support the mast.

A Tideway with a 15' or maybe 16' LWL? Only AutoCR#P knows. Piece of cake actually. It's in the same file with the 15'-3" x 5'-6" Tread Lightly on Steroids.

Jim and I are headed in the same general direction. I don't seem to be able to find exactly what I want. So, I massage various boats with AutoCAD. When I get closer to identifying what I want, I can send the respective designer my ideas for modifications and if he agrees that what I want is feasible, I write a check and get modified plans. Quite simple actually.

20% longer. Batteries in the box keel. Tideway could work.

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D

[JimD]

Originally posted by Meerkat:
I prefer a mast in a tabernacle if it's going to live on a trailer. Masts are heavy and ackward.

Also, keel stepped masts have the problem of sealing the cabin entry point.Masts for 14 foot gaff rigs aren't big enough to be heavy and awkward. Sealing the point of entry shouldn't be a big problem in the age of synthetic materials. There's a rubber for every occasion. And I have to ask, what would be the point of a boomkin unless you changed the rig to marconi?

[JimD]

Tideway could work. It'll work for me. 25 inches draft, though. A bigger version even more. I hope the bilge keel option is illustrated in the study plans as well.

[Meerkat]

You CAN NOT just blow up boat plans by 20% and expect it to work! :eek:

I think you and I have a very different idea of what a wishbone rig is. IIRC, the sprit, for lack of a better term (actually, the wishbone itself), is on both sides of the sail, and the mast is free-standing. Gary Hoyt was big on them for a cruising boat he designed and sold in several sizes.

[Meerkat]

13' aluminium masts for my old Sea Pearl 21 were plenty ackward!

[Meerkat]

Originally posted by JimD:
And I have to ask, what would be the point of a boomkin unless you changed the rig to marconi?"Happy" has a marconi rig... ;)

[JimD]

Originally posted by Meerkat:
13' aluminium masts for my old Sea Pearl 21 were plenty ackward!I think you and I have a very different idea of what awkward is... :D The aluminum mast for my Minuet is 16 or 18 feet and steps in seconds no problemo.

[JimD]

Originally posted by Meerkat:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by JimD:
And I have to ask, what would be the point of a boomkin unless you changed the rig to marconi?"Happy" has a marconi rig... ;) </font>[/QUOTE]Oops, sorry, I misread your post. Yes, Happy has a marconi main and the boomkin supports the backstay. Hess's Falmouth 22 has the same set up.

[ 06-30-2005, 01:31 AM: Message edited by: JimD ]

[Aramas]

I looked at the picture at the top of the page and thought "Hmm...so that's what a hatful of anuses looks like..." smile.gif

[Meerkat]

Originally posted by Aramas:
I looked at the picture at the top of the page and thought "Hmm...so that's what a hatful of anuses looks like..." smile.gif And with you, oh thread thrasher, bog trotting pommy lover comes to mind. tongue.gif

[JimD]

Originally posted by Aramas:
I looked at the picture at the top of the page and thought "Hmm...so that's what a hatful of anuses looks like..." smile.gif AARG! She's a fine, shippy little boat, for those with an eye for things fine and shippy.

[paladin]

in a boat that small you're gonna hang yourself in the cockpit on the backstay...
the boomkin don't take much and moves the wire aft to clear the cockpit..makes a place to put a liferaft and straddles the outboard rudder to allow a base for self steering....without putting it all in a SMALL cockpit.

[JimD]

If it were marconi rigged, and if it were to have a backstay, then a boomkin would make sense. No reason it couldn't be retractable, too, I suppose.

[Meerkat]

Be the first on your block to have a boat with ends that fold up, kind of like drawbridges ;)

[JimD]

Originally posted by Meerkat:
Be the first on your block to have a boat with ends that fold up, kind of like drawbridges ;) I leave that honour to you, my freind, since I am building a yawl, not a cutter.

[Meerkat]

You really ought to fly that notion past Paul Fisher. He might already have something worked up, even if from a different boat.

[JimD]

Originally posted by Meerkat:
You really ought to fly that notion past Paul Fisher. He might already have something worked up, even if from a different boat.I wuz thinkin' I might get Paul involved at some point, such as before I ruin a perfectly good boat :D

[Meerkat]

If I/you/we go for lead ballast, we might want to have that discussed too. Structural concerns.

[JimD]

Originally posted by Meerkat:
If I/you/we go for lead ballast, we might want to have that discussed too. Structural concerns.Yes, although scrounging for scrap iron and pouring cement around it for ballast is something I've already done and unless you luck out and someone hands you 700#s of lead, the iron is so much easier and cheaper to come by. But even if the lead were readily available I think I'd have few concerns about the structural changes necessary.

[Venchka]

Originally posted by Meerkat:
You CAN NOT just blow up boat plans by 20% and expect it to work! :eek:

I think you and I have a very different idea of what a wishbone rig is. IIRC, the sprit, for lack of a better term (actually, the wishbone itself), is on both sides of the sail, and the mast is free-standing. Gary Hoyt was big on them for a cruising boat he designed and sold in several sizes.First of all, please read what I said. Again. Re: submitting a wish list of changes to the designer for his blessing/re-design accompanied by a check for said services.

Now I understand the confusion re: wishbone. The boom you are speaking of probably didn't exist when I bought my wee Norgegian fin keel beauty. Couple that with the fact that the term "wishbone rig" was used in my presence by folks who I figured knew what they were talking about. Since it was my first boat I didn't argue with them. If there is a better shorthand term for a jib headed main sail on a deck stepped aluminum stick with 3 wires holding it up and attached to the stick about 3/4 of the way up the mast and one of the wires supporting a small non-overlapping jib I'll use it in the future.

Years later I saw a cat ketch in the Southern Yacht Club marina in New Orleans with the type of booms you are talking about. Freestanding carbon fiber spars as I recall. I also think one of the 'glass Herrshoff catboats used something similar.

Maybe I'm all wet. I won't speak of my wee Norwegian fin keel beauty's rig as a wishbone ever again.

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D

[JimD]

Acknowledgement for the invention of the wishbone boom arrangement is credited to NGH in 1933 but I don't know what design it was introduced with. Never really took off. I wish the study plans for Tideway were in the mail today. SWMBO is away til Sunday so I have three days of uninterupted boat obsession before me and no plans :( :D

[Venchka]

Originally posted by JimD:
Acknowledgement for the invention of the wishbone boom arrangement :( :D Therein lies the rub. wishbone rig and wishbone boom are different things together at the same time.

Like I said, I probably made it up. No worries. Forgotten.

I'm also spoiled when it comes to hard heavy stuff. I already have 300+ pounds of lead here at work. I could collect 700 pounds of steel any day after work and give my boss $0.10/pound, or probably free. I reckon the 3 tire shops on my home are good for another 100 pounds of tire weights every month or so. The fact that Tideway has a long box to fill is a huge advantage over having to cast a shape in a mold.

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D

[JimD]

The fact that Tideway has a long box to fill is a huge advantage over having to cast a shape in a mold.
Four Minnkota deep cycle batteries laid out end to end would occupy a space 7" wide by 9" deep and about 4'3" long and weigh about 220#. If they could sit on top of about 480# lead in the bottom of the box wouldn't that be nice?

[Venchka]

Originally posted by JimD:
Acknowledgement for the invention of the wishbone boom arrangement is credited to NGH in 1933 but I don't know what design it was introduced with. :( :D I told Y'all I didn't know nothing. Don't Windsurfers exist because of it? NGH would probably groan at the thought.

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D

[Venchka]

Originally posted by JimD:
...Four Minnkota deep cycle batteries laid out end to end would occupy a space 7" wide by 9" deep and about 4'3" long and weigh about 220#. If they could sit on top of about 480# lead in the bottom of the box wouldn't that be nice?Yup. AGM batteries if the space is enclosed and not ventilated. 2 of those would be fine with me.

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D

[Meerkat]

That box is designed for concrete/scrap. Using lead, 700# would not fill the whole box and it would increase the leverage on the box/hull join. It might be better to narrow the box and have the weight of the lead better distributed, not to mention the decrease in drag from having a narrower keel.

[Venchka]

Originally posted by Meerkat:
BTW, the ballast calls for cement and iron scrap. I don't like that idea: cement attracts moisture.
Originally posted by Meerkat:
That box is designed for concrete/scrap. Using lead, 700# would not fill the whole box and it would increase the leverage on the box/hull join. It might be better to narrow the box and have the weight of the lead better distributed, not to mention the decrease in drag from having a narrower keel.Would you make up my mind? :D These are details that are easily engineered and designed. Like keel bolts for the lead. I can see pros and cons for both ballast schemes. The pro for lead that comes to the top of the list is lowering the C.G. of the ballast and lengthening the righting moment arm. The lead would have to placed such that the C.C. remained in the same fore-n-aft position. That's easy too with a few pigs of trimming ballast.

Overlooked also is the fact that Paul Fisher came up with a cheap and easy ballast scheme, including a partial water ballast option, to appeal to the builder on a tight budget. I imagine that if a builder said, "Paul, I have this pile of lead. Ok if I use it?", he would explain how to make the lead work. Nothing about small boats is cast in stone. Or cement and scrap steel. Half the fun of building it yourself is tailoring the boat to the builder/owner's wishes.

The other huge pro of using lead in a boat this size is gaining a perfect battery and/or fresh water stowage locker. Further lowering the boat's C.G., and freeing up cabin lockers for other things.

Looking at that box keel, I wonder if it might not sit upright on a nice firm bottom? Like a gravel bar in a tidal creek back of Petersburg? A pair of light beaching legs would make sure it stayed upright. Twin bilge keels not required.

http://www.gartsideboats.com/pgimages/Surprise-on-legs.jpg

I hope the study plans answer the question of "Where do you put the motor?" and the heater question too.

The problem of 6' overall height can't be made to go away. Tideway won't go in a normal garage once it's on the trailer. It won't come out of a garage when finished if the builder isn't careful.

Making sure it's the right boat for the job is the hard part. Working out the details is easy. That's what I do all day on structures far bigger than this.

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D

[JimD]

My boats sit under tarps in the back yard at the moment. Tideway likely would, too. A carport would be nice but indoor storage unnecessary. I'd want a double garage to build inside. A single garage or dibs on half a double isn't enough elbow room. Some will disagree but I've beentheredonethat and it's a real pain and few wives are going to give up the entire double garage for however many months it takes to build. A car port, that is one of those deals with the roof attatched to the side of the house but with open sides would be ideal for building in good weather but noisier for the neighbours. The construction sequence would probably go something like 1)build hull upside down including painting(in garage if you can) 2) wheel hull on building form outside, flip and lift onto trailer 3) add ballast, finish fitting out and adding cabin outside perhaps under temporary tarp roofed tentlike structure or whatever works for you.

[Tim Diebert]

Isn't Surprise about the most pefect boat ever drawn? From every angle it is a wonderous thing of beauty.

[Venchka]

Yes.

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D

[Venchka]

Originally posted by Meerkat:
...BTW, the ballast calls for cement and iron scrap. I don't like that idea: cement attracts moisture. Sam Devlin uses lead shot and epoxy for his ballast. Dunno what mass quantities of lead shot cost though - or even if it's still available, what with Ducks Unlimited and other efforts to keep lead out of the environment.
smile.gif Checking the McMaster-Carr catalog...

Lead shot, 25 pound bags : $46.88 + shipping + Epoxy @ $35/gal.

I think lead shot set in epoxy can be ruled out.

Wayne
Bye Y'all! In the Swamp. :D

[Alan D. Hyde]

Use tire weights...

Many places used to GIVE the used ones away.

Some places still may.

Alan

[htom]

Roughly (66% packing) you'd need eight bags of shot for each gallon of epoxy, yielding three gallons of ballast, weighing a bit more than two hundred pounds, about five hundred pounds per cubic foot.

Very good for ten or twenty pounds, but not for a keel.

[Venchka]

Originally posted by Alan D. Hyde:
Use tire weights...

Many places used to GIVE the used ones away.

Some places still may.

AlanYes, Alan, I've been saying that. Between you and I, 3 times at least.

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D

[JimD]

If only there were some place you could get small lead weights for free! :confused: :D . How about scrap iron, available in big chunks for very nearly free. 6"x6"x4' plus 4 batteries sitting on top equals around 700#

[ 07-01-2005, 06:20 PM: Message edited by: JimD ]

[Meerkat]

Jim; How much epoxy do you think it would take to encapsulate Venchka as a figurehead? smile.gif

[JimD]

Please play nice :cool:

[Venchka]

Jim, if you're ever in my neighborhood we can pick up enough steel disks off the ground, diameters from 3"-8" and thicknesses of 1"-2"-3", to sink a Tideway. Bring a big truck.

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D

[Meerkat]

I got a line on a new book: "How To Serve An Alligator!" Mwahahahahahahahaha. tongue.gif

[paladin]

when I started Amihan...I had no trouble collecting enough lead scrap over a period of six months from a lot of different sources.....old lead pipe from plumbers...wheel weights....etc...i kept a couple of buckets in the back of the pickup and made stops every week, taking the bucket and leaving an empty one...it's either time or money

[JimD]

Originally posted by Venchka:
Jim, if you're ever in my neighborhood we can pick up enough steel disks off the ground, diameters from 3"-8" and thicknesses of 1"-2"-3", to sink a Tideway. Bring a big truck.

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D Does steel come in standard 1"x6" dimensions? If you had six lengths 4 feet long you could just stack them neatly in the box and secure them. They'd weigh under 100#s each so it would be possible to do the whole ballast job without any mechanical advantage provided one could lift 100# or had at least one freind to help.

[Venchka]

Originally posted by JimD:
...Does steel come in standard 1"x6" dimensions? Yes.

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D

[Paulyboy]

Auto dealers don't recycle wheel weights. Wheel weight suppliers don't generally haul out the old ones. The dealer I work for is sitting on about 300 lbs. of useless lead right now. Get the hint??? :eek: :eek: :eek:

[JimD]

Originally posted by Paulyboy:
Auto dealers don't recycle wheel weights. Wheel weight suppliers don't generally haul out the old ones. The dealer I work for is sitting on about 300 lbs. of useless lead right now. Get the hint??? :eek: :eek: :eek: You're starting to get through to me.

[JimD]

Originally posted by Venchka:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by JimD:
...Does steel come in standard 1"x6" dimensions? Yes.

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D </font>[/QUOTE]Howdy, Wayne. Good to hear from you. How was the trip?

[Venchka]

Hot. No wind. Hot. Too much wind. Hot. Frog stanglers. Hot.

Idea: Get a piece of channel. Seal up the ends with plate. Support the channel over one of these...

http://www.cajuncrawfish.com/images/items/burner.gif

Turn on heat. Add wheel weights. Melt in place. Turn off heat. Not too much heat so you don't melt the channel. Secure lead to channel and channel to boat.

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D

[ 07-12-2005, 05:01 PM: Message edited by: Venchka ]

[JimD]

Was it hot? :D

[Venchka]

Before the steel glows? :D 330C will melt lead. That's hot enough.

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D

[ 07-12-2005, 05:40 PM: Message edited by: Venchka ]