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George.
10-01-2011, 11:57 AM
Couldn't turn on the news last night, or look at a US paper on the web today, without being subjected to endless hand-wringing on whether it was right for the US to blow up a US citizen without trial or any sort of due process. Looked at the Bilge just now, and it is also full of threads discussing this

Funny. The Americans have been blowing people up using Predators with abandon for a few years now. In Pakistan they often blow up "suspects" along with their entire households, as well as neighbors and bystanders. No hand-wringing about that. What makes so many Americans think that their fellow citizens are a privileged order of mankind when it comes to basic human rights? Either it is correct to blow up terrorism suspects hiding in failed states where arrest is unlikely, or it is not correct. The target's passport makes no moral difference.

Andrew Craig-Bennett
10-01-2011, 11:59 AM
+1.

skaraborgcraft
10-01-2011, 12:04 PM
i posted a response in the other thread. Your goverment is a global risk.

Breakaway
10-01-2011, 12:04 PM
I agree. No hand-wringing required. If you're considered to be threatened lives and/ or national or world security as a terrorist you should be blown up regardless of nationality, religious beliefs or anything else.

Kevin

George.
10-01-2011, 12:11 PM
If you're considered to be threatened lives and/ or national or world security as a terrorist ...

The devil, of course, is in who gets to do the "considering." I trust governments marginally more than I trust terrorists.

But in cases like OBL or this guy I make an exception, because:

1) they publicly declared themselves to be terrorists who seek to kill;

2) they confessed their crimes on line for all to see;

3) they were hiding in failed states where no regular law enforcement is possible.

In flagrante delicto and all that.

Paul Girouard
10-01-2011, 12:16 PM
Humm , and here I was thinking this was baseball thread about the NY Yankee's and WHY they didn't use Mariano Rivera to close out that end of the season game with Tampa Bay!!! Cost the Red Sox's a play off berth and their coach his job!!

Andrew Craig-Bennett
10-01-2011, 12:25 PM
The devil, of course, is in who gets to do the "considering." I trust governments marginally more than I trust terrorists.

But in cases like OBL or this guy I make an exception, because:

1) they publicly declared themselves to be terrorists who seek to kill;

2) they confessed their crimes on line for all to see;

3) they were hiding in failed states where no regular law enforcement is possible.

In flagrante delicto and all that.

+ another 1

PhaseLockedLoop
10-01-2011, 12:39 PM
Jack-the-Dwarf-Killer. We gotta be proud. As soon as we kill everybody everywhere who opposes the US, or is said to oppose the US, or is mistaken for an opponent, or who is within blast range of a suspected opponent, things'll be sweet.

Rich Jones
10-01-2011, 12:49 PM
The issue isn't about Americans being more valuable than others. It's an issue of legality. It's generally against the law for the U.S. government to kill one of it's citizens without at least trying to capture and try him/her in a court of law. Just to hunt him/her down and kill them is a supposed no-no. All that changed on 9/11. The Bill of Rights went out the window for those accused of terrorism.
As for me, I'll look the other way on this one and certainly won't lose any sleep over the death of that traitor.
I think Obama and the U.S. is doing a fantastic job rubbing out that scum.

George.
10-01-2011, 12:53 PM
Is it not equally against the law for the US government to kill citizens of other states without trial?

George.
10-01-2011, 12:55 PM
Humm , and here I was thinking this was baseball thread about the NY Yankee's and WHY they didn't use Mariano Rivera to close out that end of the season game with Tampa Bay!!! Cost the Red Sox's a play off berth and their coach his job!!

Now, why would anyone who is not American, Cuban, or Venezuelan care at all about such a dull and unathletic sport?

Andrew Craig-Bennett
10-01-2011, 01:13 PM
Now, why would anyone who is not American, Cuban, or Venezuelan care at all about such a dull and unathletic sport?

Or Japanese.

But the Japanese also play rugby...

http://www.rugbyworldcup.com/index.html

Chris Coose
10-01-2011, 01:22 PM
Since WWII the US blatently walks over everybody and everything to get exactly what it wants. The US mobilizes a nuclear aresnal that could destroy the earth multilpe times, while we excel at arming the entire planet as the world's largest weapons sales depot. Our competetor, the USSR fails due to bankrupcy attempting to keep up in the arms war and we call it a Victory.

We initiate two wars and cut taxes at the same time.

Arrogant? We are f***ed.

George.
10-01-2011, 01:29 PM
Or Japanese.



OK, let's rephrase that. Why would anyone from a country able to play real football care about a fat man's sport like baseball?

Andrew Craig-Bennett
10-01-2011, 01:33 PM
OK, let's rephrase that. Why would anyone from a country able to play real football care about a fat man's sport like baseball?

Argentina plays rugby, every bit as well as they plate futebol. It seems a pity that six nations compete annually in the Northern Hemisphere - Italy, Scotland, France, Wales, Ireland, England - but only four - South Africa, New Zealand, Argentina, Australia - do so in the south.. surely Brazil can join in?

George.
10-01-2011, 01:40 PM
Maybe now that crime is in steep decline - our traditional contact sport used to be walking down the street in Rio or SP. :D

Ian McColgin
10-01-2011, 02:09 PM
There are many of us who have noted the extent to which drones murder civilians in places we've turned into war zones for no sane reason. Opposing the escalating "collateral damage" and decrying a targeted murder are not incompatible.

Phillip Allen
10-01-2011, 02:29 PM
George, this stuff has been done time out of mind... I can see both sides I think

Mrleft8
10-01-2011, 02:38 PM
Hold on there George.... It's not a "Yankee" thing.... Red Sox fans are wringing their hands too!
(I believe, if you look carefully, you will find that I said essentially the same thing as your OP.)

S.V. Airlie
10-01-2011, 02:44 PM
Keep that second job Doug.

Chris Smith porter maine
10-01-2011, 03:06 PM
"OK, let's rephrase that. Why would anyone from a country able to play real football care about a fat man's sport like baseball?" Quote George

As opposed to what watching a bunch of silly little men running around in shorts kicking a ball, its a huge day if what 3 goals are scored, we play soccer as children then move on to more interesting sports, Hitting a fast ball is probably the most difficult thing in any sport.

"The devil, of course, is in who gets to do the "considering." I trust governments marginally more than I trust terrorists.

But in cases like OBL or this guy I make an exception, because:

1) they publicly declared themselves to be terrorists who seek to kill;

2) they confessed their crimes on line for all to see;

3) they were hiding in failed states where no regular law enforcement is possible." Quote George

On your other points, I tend to agree quite heartily, you are obviously a thoughtful man, who has not been indoctrinated into the magnificence of baseball.

Chris Smith

S.V. Airlie
10-01-2011, 03:12 PM
WTH, I grew up in Cooperstown with the infamous Baseball Hall of Shame. I don't attend these games. I'll stick to rugby ( intramural sport) and badminton. Even golf! I know people love the sport but I thought an ERA stat had something to do with equal rights.

Mrleft8
10-01-2011, 03:29 PM
And I thought an ERA was something that had passed....

Paul Girouard
10-01-2011, 03:32 PM
"OK, let's rephrase that. Why would anyone from a country able to play real football care about a fat man's sport like baseball?" Quote George


On your other points, I tend to agree quite heartily, you are obviously a thoughtful man, who has not been indoctrinated into the magnificence of baseball.



Nor is he part of the Red Sox Nation. I'm sure coach Girardi ( coach of those "damned Yankee's ) :dconsidered who Tampa Bay would be replacing in the playoffs when he didn't put Rivera in to close out that game. :mad:

The Yankee's had a 7 run lead in that game and lost 7-8 boxing out the Red Sox from the play offs. Did they throw the game? Yes , I'd say they did!

skuthorp
10-01-2011, 03:33 PM
Theres nothing wrong with baseball as a sport, thousands of people play and enjoy it in schools and parks, and indoor versions all over the world. Professional baseball is different. Oh yeah the rules are mostly the same but it's entertainment, mostly to occupy the spaces between adds on the TV screen. Thee participants play a game for a living, it's their job, not their sport in the conventional meaning.

As for thread subject, the fuss is about US internal politics, not about any thought for local or international law. I think in the light of the use of drones to kill others nationals there is nothing unexpected about the strike. I understood there was some 'collateral damage as well but I haven't heard much about that here, only on our local media. And as for hand wringing about the morality of the process, it's gone on way too long for anyone to take that seriously. And I tar my last two governments with the same brush, all in pursuit of the US alliance of course which may in the end be a straw man after all for reasons of economy.

seanz
10-01-2011, 03:40 PM
Couldn't turn on the news last night, or look at a US paper on the web today, without being subjected to endless hand-wringing on whether it was right for the US to blow up a US citizen without trial or any sort of due process. Looked at the Bilge just now, and it is also full of threads discussing this

Funny. The Americans have been blowing people up using Predators with abandon for a few years now. In Pakistan they often blow up "suspects" along with their entire households, as well as neighbors and bystanders. No hand-wringing about that. What makes so many Americans think that their fellow citizens are a privileged order of mankind when it comes to basic human rights? Either it is correct to blow up terrorism suspects hiding in failed states where arrest is unlikely, or it is not correct. The target's passport makes no moral difference.

Holy dotting dot dot, Batman. It's George.!

They're tying themselves in knots over this one. All terrorists must be killed no matter the risk to innocent by-standers, all American life (except the troops when you lie to start a war) is sacred. It just don't add up!

Drone on, I say.
;)

skuthorp
10-01-2011, 03:43 PM
Yeah, I forgot to say g'day to George, seems an age since he was down in the slops last. Good to see ya!

S.V. Airlie
10-01-2011, 03:47 PM
There are other threads you can respond to other than one about BaseBall to bring up this stuff.. I may not like pro ball but fair is fair. Stick to a political one.Post there and be fair....

skuthorp
10-01-2011, 03:53 PM
Ok, Ok SV, sorry about thread drift.

S.V. Airlie
10-01-2011, 04:00 PM
Ok, Ok SV, sorry about thread drift.No problem.. Just that a similar thread is currently running. As I do not like pro ball, it really does not matter to me, but a lot here do.. Just an observation.

Peter Malcolm Jardine
10-01-2011, 04:09 PM
These guys were the best at blowing people up..


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P7_6zy99V-Q&feature=player_detailpage

CWSmith
10-01-2011, 04:23 PM
The same people who would condemn Obama believe that non-citizens have no rights and can be held indefinitely, even tortured, without trial. They are wrong on both counts.

Y Bar Ranch
10-01-2011, 04:24 PM
This has nothing to do with international law, morality, or etihcs... it has to do with only ONE thing:

"Can we hang this tag on Obama, too?"

Yep, Steve Benen is out to get Obama.
http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/political-animal/2011_09/the_awlaki_debate032540.php


When I noted (http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/political-animal/2011_09/al_qaeda_leader_killed_in_yeme032528.php) earlier that al Qaeda’s Anwar al-Awlaki had been killed overnight, my main focus was on what this means to the terrorist network, which has suffered a series of blows lately. In retrospect, I overlooked a part of the story that deserves to be debated: the legal, moral, and political propriety of the attack.

...There are many who can answer these questions with far more authority than I can, but I thought I’d open the floor to some discussion. It’s clearly a debate worth having.

Maybe, Norman, this is in fact a debate worth having?

seanz
10-01-2011, 04:28 PM
The same people who would condemn Obama believe that non-citizens have no rights and can be held indefinitely, even tortured, without trial. They are wrong on both counts.

I wish Obama would stop doing that........

seanz
10-01-2011, 04:31 PM
Yep, Steve Benen is out to get Obama.
http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/political-animal/2011_09/the_awlaki_debate032540.php



Maybe, Norman, this is in fact a debate worth having?

It's definitely worth talking about. But. Would you want to talk about it if McCain was President?

I'm seeing a lot of Obama=Bad about this issue, when from this distance it just seems like Obama=POTUS......and this is just the way that America does things.

Y Bar Ranch
10-01-2011, 04:36 PM
It's definitely worth talking about. But. Would you want to talk about it if McCain was President?

Yes

Gerarddm
10-01-2011, 04:43 PM
Is it not equally against the law for the US government to kill citizens of other states without trial?

When at war, no it is not.

seanz
10-01-2011, 04:44 PM
Yes

Would you be asking the same questions?

:D

Me? I'm failing to see the difference between this guy and any of the other Muslim radicals killed by remote by the USA. There is a big difference between him and a wedding though, isn't there?

CWSmith
10-01-2011, 04:47 PM
I wish Obama would stop doing that........

I'm with you. My disappointment is huge.

S.V. Airlie
10-01-2011, 04:49 PM
Can you get the terrorists to stop at the same time?

Peter Malcolm Jardine
10-01-2011, 04:54 PM
Ahh ya buncha wussies. Lets find out what ole Dickie Cheney has to say about this.

S.V. Airlie
10-01-2011, 04:58 PM
Chamberlain basically rolled over to Hitler in 1938.A lot of good it did him. And that was between two "civilized" countries." Peace in our time."

Peter Malcolm Jardine
10-01-2011, 06:02 PM
Chamberlain basically rolled over to Hitler in 1938.A lot of good it did him. And that was between two "civilized" countries." Peace in our time."


You think he rolled over. History would say far more. It was a little more complicated than rolling over.

botebum
10-01-2011, 06:21 PM
Once labeled a terrorist, it appears one has no country.
I'm less concerned with that than I am about the arrogance of the US to try to overrule the laws of other countries when US citizens are convicted abroad. Amanda Knox and Michael Fay immediately come to mind.

Doug

Dr. Arthur Trollingson
10-01-2011, 06:32 PM
I agree. No hand-wringing required. If you're considered to be threatened lives and/ or national or world security as a terrorist you should be blown up regardless of nationality, religious beliefs or anything else.

Kevin

I am confuse. Who was terrorist? Man with bomb, or man with bomb?

PeterSibley
10-01-2011, 06:49 PM
Is it not equally against the law for the US government to kill citizens of other states without trial?

+1 but that attitude goes with power .Absolute power is absolutely corrupting .

Nicholas Carey
10-01-2011, 07:49 PM
I would like to point out that the word "citizen" is used in just a few places in the United States Constitution; the word "person" is used every where else.

"Citizen" is used in the context of eligibility for political participation and in defining the types of cases in which the Federal courts have power:


Art I, Section 2. Eligibility to the House of Representatives of the Unites States.
Art I, Sect 3. Eligibility to the Senate of the United States.
Art II, Section 3. Eligibility to the Presidency.
Art III, Section 2. Scope of Federal judicial power:

The judicial Power shall extend to all Cases, in Law and Equity, arising under this Constitution, the Laws of the United States, and Treaties made, or which shall be made, under their Authority; to all Cases affecting Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Consuls; to all Cases of admiralty and maritime Jurisdiction; to Controversies to which the United States shall be a Party; to Controversies between two or more States; between a State and Citizens of another State; between Citizens of different States; between Citizens of the same State claiming Lands under Grants of different States, and between a State, or the Citizens thereof, and foreign States, Citizens or Subjects.


Art. IV, Section 2. The States: The Citizens of each State shall be entitled to all Privileges and Immunities of Citizens in the several States.
Amendment XI. Modifying the above-mentioned Art. III Sect. 2.
Amendment XIV. Post-Civil War Citizenship Rights, etc. (Definition of Citizen).
Amendment XV. Right to Vote.
Amendment XIX. Right to Vote.
Amendment XXIV. Right to Vote.
Amendment XXIV. Right to Vote.


Everywhere else, the term of art is "person", "persons" or "people", especially with respect to the Bill of Rights and civil rights. The intent is quite clear in the Constitution that the civil rights and protections promised by the Constitution extend to all WRT interactions with the government of the United States, regardless of citizenship, residency or nationality.

There's no hypocrisy here: many of us have been complaining for years that what we are doing in the so-called global war on terror is unconstitutional and illegal under both US and international law.

That being said: I have to agree with Norman B: the right-wing's suddenly getting all protective of civil rights WRT the extra-judical murder of Anwar al-Awlaki is merely an attempt to hang something else around Obama's neck. Bush II's administation engaged in this practice for 8 long years, with the vocal and whole-hearted support of the right wing. They can't suddenly switch gears and find that this is somehow illegal and wrong when done by a President of a different party.

George Ray
10-02-2011, 05:06 AM
It is a mentally and morally painful topic and the west, mostly the US, has much to answer for if anyone with a wide audience were willing to ask the questions. Given the potential embarrassment/shame, avoidance of the topic or a digression/diversion into humor might be expected when the topic comes up. To painful to meet it face to face.

Some of the characteristics of a respected leader are transparency and a just moral code that is applied consistently. The western world for all it's improvements in human rights has been lacking in both.

What would the world look like if transparency and a just moral code that is applied consistently were the order of the day in government ?

George.
10-02-2011, 06:23 AM
I would like to point out that the word "citizen" is used in just a few places in the United States Constitution; the word "person" is used every where else.

...

The intent is quite clear in the Constitution that the civil rights and protections promised by the Constitution extend to all WRT interactions with the government of the United States, regardless of citizenship, residency or nationality.


No doubt. The men who came up with the US constitution were Enlightenment thinkers, who thought in terms of natural rights and universal rights. They would have found today's nationalists, who assign different values and rights to US citizens vs the rest of mankind, to be as benighted as the people in the 18th century who still clung to notions of religion or "nobility" as determiners of rights and privileges.

skuthorp
10-02-2011, 06:27 AM
You think he rolled over. History would say far more. It was a little more complicated than rolling over.
Britain needed time to get ready for war, some argue that he sacrificed his reputation at the time and in history to give GB this period to prepare.

George.
10-02-2011, 06:31 AM
As opposed to what watching a bunch of silly little men running around in shorts kicking a ball, its a huge day if what 3 goals are scored, we play soccer as children then move on to more interesting sports, Hitting a fast ball is probably the most difficult thing in any sport.


...you are obviously a thoughtful man, who has not been indoctrinated into the magnificence of baseball.

On the contrary, I have played both baseball and "soccer." In baseball, we would spend half the game sitting around watching the other team and our lone batter, and most of the other half standing around, watching the other team's batters strike out, or walk to first base. Occasionally the ball was actually hit by the bat, and then someone other than pitcher, catcher, and batter actually got to play - but usually no more than one or two fellows.

In football, by contrast, everyone has to be running and positioning themselves at all times, and most people participate in most plays. You won't see any guys with beer bellies chewing tobacco during a football game.

skaraborgcraft
10-02-2011, 06:38 AM
Since WWII the US blatently walks over everybody and everything to get exactly what it wants. The US mobilizes a nuclear aresnal that could destroy the earth multilpe times, while we excel at arming the entire planet as the world's largest weapons sales depot. Our competetor, the USSR fails due to bankrupcy attempting to keep up in the arms war and we call it a Victory.

We initiate two wars and cut taxes at the same time.

Arrogant? We are f***ed.

I agree. Please,the USSR collapsed a long time ago,its the Russian Federation. You are doing a good job of proving a joke that Americans dont have any geographical knowledge outside of the US.

Chris Coose
10-02-2011, 06:46 AM
Skar: another anonymous girl from indochina, making like she is witty.

Andrew Craig-Bennett
10-02-2011, 06:46 AM
No doubt. The men who came up with the US constitution were Enlightenment thinkers, who thought in terms of natural rights and universal rights. They would have found today's nationalists, who assign different values and rights to US citizens vs the rest of mankind, to be as benighted as the people in the 18th century who still clung to notions of religion or "nobility" as determiners of rights and privileges.

+1, again.

skaraborgcraft
10-02-2011, 09:05 AM
Skar: another anonymous girl from indochina, making like she is witty.

I actually agreed with your post. If you feel its sensible to deride someone for informing you that the USSR collapsed way back then thats up to you.Just appears to prove a point......you sore about something,why the unecessary remark?

STUDY PEACE? Take your own advice,others may be offended by what you write.

Chris Coose
10-02-2011, 09:18 AM
skar, Who was the US competetor in the arms race and what was Russia called at the time of the bankrupcy, collapse and our "victory".

skaraborgcraft
10-02-2011, 09:39 AM
skar, Who was the US competetor in the arms race and what was Russia called at the time of the bankrupcy, collapse and our "victory".

Bloody English! Is that what you call one of those past perfects? Feel free to deride me or have a Tyler "2 minutes of hate" if it makes you feel better.It was the USSR at the time of its collapse.Many threads still calling Russia that,when not correct. My humble aplogies. Both countries are still fkuced though,or will be, corrupt ,corrupt corrupt......

Chris Coose
10-02-2011, 09:59 AM
So we may understand a bit better Skar, was I anywhere near correct? Are you a teenage girl from Mongolia? Do you and your sister Dutch share a kerosene driven computer in a mud hut, heated by dung?

The bigger picture I've got is corruption/bankrupcy has been best facitltated by war and weapons mentality and in the US we've lived in the illusion we are invincible. Notice the crickets in every neighborhood of DC.

We are f**8ed. Hypocrisy is a side joke.

As Norm Messenger used to chime in, "Time for a tax cut."

skaraborgcraft
10-02-2011, 10:26 AM
Chris,can you explain why you have a facination with young girls from the East, and why you assume,guess,or maybe even fantasize im writing this on a dung powered PC? Im interested,i really am,and im sure a lot of others are too. Please enlighten us with your insights.

S.V. Airlie
10-02-2011, 10:33 AM
Look Russia has been corrupt for hundreds of years. First under the Czars then through Lenin, Trotsky, Stalin, and now Putin..America is just catching up.

Joe Dupere
10-02-2011, 10:33 AM
... In football, by contrast, everyone has to be running and positioning themselves at all times, and most people participate in most plays. You won't see any guys with beer bellies chewing tobacco during a football game.

I disagree, you see it here in the US all the time. Not on the field of course, they're in the stands... :D

Joe, FFPoP

skaraborgcraft
10-02-2011, 10:36 AM
After taking a deep breath and rethinking about what you are saying, it seems like there are two different points to be considered:

1. whether or not Americans think it's okay to kill non-citizens without a trial or legal process while it's not okay to kill citizens in the same way. Hypocrisy.

With this, I agree that I didn't connect the two acts because I thought it went without saying that I felt the drone attacks were both illeagal, assuming we didn't have permission from the Pakistanie government, and immoral because we end up killing so many innocent people in the process. I do feel that drone attackes can be useful and nessisary tools but it seems to me that we have this policy of our mission being more importaint than the law and basic morality. This is not a policy that is compatibale with my sense of morality and it dosen't make strategic sense as it will simply perpetuate the conflict, which brings me to the next relavant point . . .



2. Whether or not America should be angry about terrorists slamming aircraft into our buildings killing many innocent people and not bat an eye when we do the same thing to them, not to mention on a much larger scale, killing many more innocent people than were killed on 9/11.

I agree that OBL and al-Awlaki were extreme dangers to our country and others, but to what degree can we as a country sit in judgement, as the great Democracy in they sky, of other's infringement on human rights while we blow apart innocent children, whole families, who's only crime was to hold a naive, ignorant, and passive loyalty to our "target"? How is that moral? And if morality is not your concern, how is this an intelligent strategy if the point is to bring an eventual end to the violence. Yes, I am making an assumption that they will get tired of fighting when their reasons for hating America aren't getting validated every day and in such a disgustingly horrible way. My point, whether they are right or wrong, after seeing their young loved ones torn apart by our bombs, their burnt little faces distorted with pain, any chance of negotiation is out the window for a generation or two. These are simple people, mostly uneducated, if we can't get past 9/11 as a country in order to find peace after 10 years how do you expect them to get over, seeing first hand, the carnage inflicted on their innocent loved ones. Our strategy will fail, it has failed. More of us will die, then more of them will die, then more of use will die, then more of us will die . . . . Short of committing genocide, the ultimate failure of humanity, this path will only lead us to more of the same, continual failure.

+1. Is it REALLY that hard to see??????

Paul Girouard
10-02-2011, 10:41 AM
Chris,can you explain why you have a facination with young girls from the East, and why you assume,guess,or maybe even fantasize im writing this on a dung powered PC? Im interested,i really am,and im sure a lot of others are too. Please enlighten us with your insights.

My theory is CC needs to contrast his study peace tag line , with bitter, mean, nasty, rude, etc, comments. So it's s juxtaposition of ideas.

Of course it's only a theory, it could be he's just a nasty person. So he has a warped sense of humor and thinks he's witty or funny ?

Chris Coose
10-02-2011, 10:47 AM
Chris,can you explain why you have a facination with young girls from the East, and why you assume,guess,or maybe even fantasize im writing this on a dung powered PC? Im interested,i really am,and im sure a lot of others are too. Please enlighten us with your insights.

In your false (now understood as a language misunderstanding) first volley you took at me, I could see that you might be taking liberties about me as an American and our illiterate understanding of the globe, so I took a guess as to who you might be.
We know Dutch is a young woman from the near to middle east who has no interest in boats and keeps domestic animals in her domicile. It really was a guess you might be related. I see from another thread you might be Nordic which we (global illiterate Americans) know to be real close to western China. (BTW I guessed you were on a kerosene driven computer and you heat with dung).

Anonymity on the internet can make for fun. Don't take anything I write here seriously. You may get the wrong impression of me.

George Ray
10-02-2011, 10:52 AM
George: . . . . They would have found today's nationalists, who assign different values and rights to US citizens vs the rest of mankind, to be as benighted as the people in the 18th century who still clung to notions of religion or "nobility" as determiners of rights and privileges.
+1


McMike: . . . . . .if we can't get past 9/11 as a country in order to find peace after 10 years how do you expect them to get over, seeing first hand, the carnage inflicted on their innocent loved ones. Our strategy will fail, it has failed. More of us will die, then more of them will die, then more of use will die, then more of us will die . . . .
+1

skaraborgcraft
10-02-2011, 10:52 AM
My theory is CC needs to contrast his study peace tag line , with bitter, mean, nasty, rude, etc, comments. So it's s juxtaposition of ideas.

Of course it's only a theory, it could be he's just a nasty person. So he has a warped sense of humor and thinks he's witty or funny ?

warped sense of humour is fine....he is welcome to visit me and my sister in our Yurt,we have enough yaks milk to go around.Please bring toyota pick up as or uaz has finally succumbed after 20 years life in the Steppes.We are nice girls,treat you real good,we need Yuan,US dollar no good .

Chris Coose
10-02-2011, 10:58 AM
Christ Paul, a guy who speaks a foreign language gets it in 3 posts and you are getting close after 6 years!!

Send pictures Skar!!!!! of the Yaks.

John Smith
10-02-2011, 10:59 AM
I agree. No hand-wringing required. If you're considered to be threatened lives and/ or national or world security as a terrorist you should be blown up regardless of nationality, religious beliefs or anything else.

Kevin
This, to me, goes with those questions like, "How could Columbus discover a place people were living?" If you give it some thought, it falls apart.



If you openly join an organization that attacks America, as far as I'm concerned, you've given up your citizenship and the rights that go with it. I also think there's a huge difference in how we handle an Al Qaeda member caught here, versus one caught there. Al Qaeda set the rules of this "war". I have no problem playing by them.

That said, This is a big step up from Bush's decision to invade a country and get ride of a leader who had nothing to do with the 9/11 attack and kill who knows how many innocent people.

I think the long term benefits here outweigh any questions of ethics. If we are doing nothing else, we are throwing the fear of Obama into those who join terrorist groups. Long term that's apt to save a lot of American lives.

This goes along with my long term thinking that had we never negotiated for hostages, some hostages may have been killed, but once it was learned that taking hostages wouldn't gain anything, there would be no more people taken hostage.

John Smith
10-02-2011, 11:00 AM
The devil, of course, is in who gets to do the "considering." I trust governments marginally more than I trust terrorists.

But in cases like OBL or this guy I make an exception, because:

1) they publicly declared themselves to be terrorists who seek to kill;

2) they confessed their crimes on line for all to see;

3) they were hiding in failed states where no regular law enforcement is possible.

In flagrante delicto and all that.

It is true that we don't want to give any president power we don't want any president to have.

John Smith
10-02-2011, 11:06 AM
I'd like to add a slightly different thought. If we follow the path where we will attack these terrorists wherever we find them, nations may be less prone to hide or protect them. They may be more prone to find them themselves and turn them over to us.

If, a year from now that is happening, it will be hard for anyone to question these actions. We are developing a history of locating and killing members of Al Qaeda. And those close by who are protecting or hiding them. I think we need to look at long term here, and it may well turn out to be a very positive change in the way things work

skaraborgcraft
10-02-2011, 11:09 AM
Christ Paul, a guy who speaks a foreign language gets it in 3 posts and you are getting close after 6 years!!

Send pictures Skar!!!!! of the Yaks.

http://www.kashvet.org/oasis/wp-content/uploads/2007/03/yak-ladakh.jpg

My sister...she like you much,say you funny man.she has most of her teeth,make good wife.Good with axe,chop much fire wood.she say make you wooden boat maybe if you good to her.

Chris Coose
10-02-2011, 11:16 AM
John, assassinations became popular in our wars after we got our asses handed to us taking Iraq cities in the conventional manner.

S.V. Airlie
10-02-2011, 11:18 AM
Skar, she must be really good with that axe. In the pic., there isn't a tree standing..LOL

Waddie
10-02-2011, 11:20 AM
Obama loves to use the drones....makes killing kind of detached and impersonal I guess. Take out the enemy, and with them a few innocents like women and children, without risk, without due process, and do it in any country you wish, regardless of their sovereignty, with impunity. Kinda sounds like what the "terrorists" do, doesn't it?

The problem is, what goes around comes around. We no longer occupy the moral high ground. It appears the US, even under a Democratic president, can be just as terroristic as any Muslim extremist movement. I wonder how those villagers sleep at night knowing the drones are always circling overhead? Will it be their turn next? Is there a "target" living nearby they don't even know is there? Will they happen to be on the road when the "convoy" is hit by drones?

Awh, who cares....... they aren't American citizens, just a bunch of towel heads that don't matter anyways. That's why we call them "collateral" damage.

Just don't be surprised and/or offended when you see them dancing after the next 911..........

regards,
Waddie

Chris Coose
10-02-2011, 11:27 AM
My sister...she like you much,say you funny man.she has most of her teeth,make good wife.Good with axe,chop much fire wood.she say make you wooden boat maybe if you good to her.

Are those remaining teeth in front or back? I hate to be shallow but that is important to us Americans who believe "Image is everything". Skar, tell your sister I'm on my way. I have just a couple things to take care of here. It is very honorable of you to represent your sister, I am mush indebted.

This is a picture of me. Notice the large hands.

http://a3.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/5940_121009201126_563726126_2389811_891582_n.jpg

S.V. Airlie
10-02-2011, 11:32 AM
My, what big claws you have Chris.LOL

John Smith
10-02-2011, 11:33 AM
Obama loves to use the drones....makes killing kind of detached and impersonal I guess. Take out the enemy, and with them a few innocents like women and children, without risk, without due process, and do it in any country you wish, regardless of their sovereignty, with impunity. Kinda sounds like what the "terrorists" do, doesn't it?

The problem is, what goes around comes around. We no longer occupy the moral high ground. It appears the US, even under a Democratic president, can be just as terroristic as any Muslim extremist movement. I wonder how those villagers sleep at night knowing the drones are always circling overhead? Will it be their turn next? Is there a "target" living nearby they don't even know is there? Will they happen to be on the road when the "convoy" is hit by drones?

Awh, who cares....... they aren't American citizens, just a bunch of towel heads that don't matter anyways. That's why we call them "collateral" damage.

Just don't be surprised and/or offended when you see them dancing after the next 911..........

regards,
Waddie

I'm not so sure with any of this. If our enemy is "terrorists" they set the ground rules.

I'm still of the opinion that this method is being successful at it's goal, and has a great deal less collateral damage, as well as greater success, than did invading Iraq. Long term i believe it will make it harder for terrorists to hid anywhere for fear of drone attacks by the community. No more human shields.

Chris Coose
10-02-2011, 11:36 AM
Just don't be surprised and/or offended when you see them dancing after the next 911..........



Hate to blow up your crystal ball Waddie but what we are spending covertly to prevent another 9/11 is America's undoing. The terrists may be stupid but they ain't dumb.

SamSam
10-02-2011, 03:05 PM
I wonder what the reaction would be if one of our gwot allies had assassinated our American terrorist?

Waddie
10-02-2011, 03:31 PM
Posted by John Smith;
I'm not so sure with any of this. If our enemy is "terrorists" they set the ground rules.

I'm still of the opinion that this method is being successful at it's goal, and has a great deal less collateral damage, as well as greater success, than did invading Iraq. Long term i believe it will make it harder for terrorists to hid anywhere for fear of drone attacks by the community. No more human shields.

Posted by Chris Coose;
Hate to blow up your crystal ball Waddie but what we are spending covertly to prevent another 9/11 is America's undoing. The terrists may be stupid but they ain't dumb.

John, I believe we set our own ground rules, they're not set for us. When we descend to the level of our terrorist opponents, we are the losers. The monetary cost of these operations is only billions, the PR value for the enemy.......priceless

Chris, I'm not sure I understand your comment. If you're saying that launching drone attacks, killing innocent people, and disrespecting/ignoring the sovereignty of foreign nations is the wrong way to fight a war against terrorism, then we are pretty much in agreement.

regards,
Waddie

PeterSibley
10-02-2011, 04:49 PM
The US descended to the level of terrorists when it indulged in firebombing civilian cities around 70 years ago .The other guys are just catching up .You weren't alone, Germany started it then the rest followed .

War ? So what ? Civilians are civilians and targeting them is terrorism .

Paul Pless
10-02-2011, 04:53 PM
The US descended to the level of terrorists when it indulged in firebombing civilian cities around 70 years ago .The other guys are just catching up .You missed the slaughter and dislocation of our indigenous peoples. Guess its an easy transgression to overlook when y'all did the same thing to your Aboriginal Australians. . .

seanz
10-02-2011, 05:01 PM
The US descended to the level of terrorists when it indulged in firebombing civilian cities around 70 years ago .The other guys are just catching up .You weren't alone, Germany started it then the rest followed .

War ? So what ? Civilians are civilians and targeting them is terrorism .

Targeting civilians is what war is all about.......:(


Colonialism, eh Paul? Thankfully those days are over.
;)

PeterSibley
10-02-2011, 05:10 PM
You missed the slaughter and dislocation of our indigenous peoples. Guess its an easy transgression to overlook when y'all did the same thing to your Aboriginal Australians. . .

Nup, freely admitted .Now back to firebombing civilians .

Peter Malcolm Jardine
10-02-2011, 05:18 PM
Britain needed time to get ready for war, some argue that he sacrificed his reputation at the time and in history to give GB this period to prepare.


It's always entertaining to hear Americans talk about the two world wars as if they actually knew what the hell happened. They weren't in the first one, and Henry Ford was giving Hitler contributions before the second one.

PhaseLockedLoop
10-02-2011, 06:19 PM
It's always entertaining to hear Americans talk about the two world wars as if they actually knew what the hell happened. They weren't in the first one, and Henry Ford was giving Hitler contributions before the second one.

Ouch.

George.
10-03-2011, 06:28 AM
... firebombing civilian cities a... Germany started it ....

No they didn't. Britain started it, and the US perfected it.

Paul Pless
10-03-2011, 06:37 AM
. . .firebombing civilian cities. . .Germany started it . . .


No they didn't. Britain started it, and the US perfected it.

I thought Coventry, at the beginning of the Blitz in November of 1940, was the first city to ever be firebombed on a large scale, meaning high amounts of collateral damage to the civilian population. Can you cite a source for me of a prior large scale firebombing carried out by the United Kingdom? I'd be interested in learning more.

George.
10-03-2011, 06:41 AM
Are you sure Coventry was firebombed?

LeeG
10-03-2011, 06:43 AM
What makes so many Americans think that their fellow citizens are a privileged order of mankind when it comes to basic human rights?

the American is a privileged subset on the planet but within America there are other subsets of privilege. What makes this newsworthy is a kind of cognitive dissonance followed by resolution. Yes, even some Americans have to be bombed to save the empire.

In Raytheon we Trust.

George.
10-03-2011, 06:48 AM
OK, just looked it up myself:


The raid that began on the evening of 14 November 1940 was the most severe to hit Coventry during the war. It was carried out by 515 German bombers, from Luftflotte 3 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luftflotte_3) and from the pathfinders of Kampfgruppe 100. The attack, code-named Operation Mondscheinsonate (Moonlight Sonata), was intended to destroy Coventry's factories and industrial infrastructure, although it was clear that damage to the rest of the city, including monuments and residential areas, would be considerable. The initial wave of 13 specially modified Heinkel He 111 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinkel_He_111) aircraft of Kampfgruppe 100, were equipped with X-Gerät (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X-Gerät) navigational devices, accurately dropped marker flares at 19:20.[18] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coventry_Blitz#cite_note-17) The British and the Germans were fighting the Battle of the Beams (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Beams) and on this night the British failed to disrupt the X-Gerät signals.
The first wave of follow-up bombers dropped high explosive (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_explosive) bombs, knocking out the utilities (the water supply, electricity network and gas mains) and cratering the roads, making it difficult for the fire engines to reach fires started by the follow-up waves of bombers. The follow-up waves dropped a combination of high explosive and incendiary bombs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incendiary_bomb). There were two types of incendiary bomb: those made of magnesium (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnesium) and those made of petroleum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petroleum). The high explosive bombs and the larger air-mines (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air-mine) were not only designed to hamper the Coventry fire brigade, they were also intended to damage roofs, making it easier for the incendiary bombs to fall into buildings and ignite them.

Of course, by November 1940 Berlin had already been bombed on the British government's orders.

Also, note that:


The attack, code-named Operation Mondscheinsonate (Moonlight Sonata), was intended to destroy Coventry's factories and industrial infrastructure

The British, I believe, were the first to mount air attacks on cities whose primary intent was to destroy civilian houses and set civilian areas on fire. They actually built mock-ups of German cities to come up with the ideal mix of bombs that would set the whole thing on fire.

Of course, they got to write the history...

Andrew Craig-Bennett
10-03-2011, 06:50 AM
Are you sure Coventry was firebombed?

The technique was known to the Luftwaffe; its not rocket science - you choose a warm calm night, drop HE in the first waves, then incendiaries - the HE breaks up the buildings exposing flammable materials and disabling the fire brigades and the incendiaries then start fires which, if your plans work, generate a fire storm.


The Luftwaffe attempted this technique on London choosing a night when there was a particularly low tide in the Thames, because that was where firefighting water was drawn from, before the raid on Coventry. The raid generated big fires but the fill firestorm failed to develop thanks to particulartly good firefighting.

This is what Coventry looked like on the morning after:


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f4/Coventry_bomb_damage_H5600.jpg

Paul Pless
10-03-2011, 06:54 AM
Are you sure Coventry was firebombed?


he raid that began on the evening of 14 November 1940 was the most severe to hit Coventry during the war. It was carried out by 515 German bombers, from Luftflotte 3 and from the pathfinders of Kampfgruppe 100. The attack, code-named Operation Mondscheinsonate (Moonlight Sonata), was intended to destroy Coventry's factories and industrial infrastructure, although it was clear that damage to the rest of the city, including monuments and residential areas, would be considerable. The initial wave of 13 specially modified Heinkel He 111 aircraft of Kampfgruppe 100, were equipped with X-Gerät navigational devices, accurately dropped marker flares at 19:20.[18] The British and the Germans were fighting the Battle of the Beams and on this night the British failed to disrupt the X-Gerät signals.

The first wave of follow-up bombers dropped high explosive bombs, knocking out the utilities (the water supply, electricity network and gas mains) and cratering the roads, making it difficult for the fire engines to reach fires started by the follow-up waves of bombers. The follow-up waves dropped a combination of high explosive and incendiary bombs. There were two types of incendiary bomb: those made of magnesium and those made of petroleum. The high explosive bombs and the larger air-mines were not only designed to hamper the Coventry fire brigade, they were also intended to damage roofs, making it easier for the incendiary bombs to fall into buildings and ignite them.
Scene of devastation in the city centre

At around 20:00, Coventry Cathedral (dedicated to Saint Michael), was set on fire for the first time. The volunteer fire-fighters managed to put out the first fire but other direct hits followed and soon new fires in the cathedral, accelerated by firestorm, were out of control. During the same period, fires were started in nearly every street in the city centre. A direct hit on the fire brigade headquarters disrupted the fire service's command and control, making it difficult to send fire fighters to the most dangerous blazes first. As the Germans had intended, the water mains were damaged by high explosives; there was not enough water available to tackle many of the fires. The raid reached its climax around midnight with the final all clear sounding at 06:15 on the morning of 15 November.

In one night, more than 4,000 homes in Coventry were destroyed, along with around three quarters of the city's factories. There was barely an undamaged building left in the city centre. Two hospitals, two churches and a police station were also among the damaged buildings.[19] Approximately 600 people were killed (the precise death toll has never been established) and more than 1,000 were injured.[20]

In the Allied raids later in the war, 500 or more heavy four-engine bombers all delivered their 3,000-6,000 pound bomb loads in a concentrated wave lasting only a few minutes. But at Coventry, the German twin-engined bombers carried smaller bomb loads (2,000–4,000 lb), and attacked in smaller multiple waves. Each bomber flew several sorties over the target, returning to base in France to rearm. Thus the attack was spread over several hours, and there were lulls in the raid when fire fighters and rescuers could reorganise and evacuate civilians.[21] As Arthur Harris, commander of RAF Bomber Command, wrote after the war "Coventry was adequately concentrated in point of space [to start a firestorm], but all the same there was little concentration in point of time".[22]
The city centre following the 14 November air raid

The raid destroyed or damaged about 60,000 buildings over hundreds of hectares in the centre of Coventry, and is known to have killed 568 civilians. The raid reached such a new level of destruction that Joseph Goebbels later used the term Coventriert ("Coventrated") when describing similar levels of destruction of other enemy towns. During the raid, the Germans dropped about 500 tonnes of high explosives, including 50 parachute air-mines, of which 20 were incendiary petroleum mines, and 36,000 incendiary bombs.[23]

The raid of 14 November combined several innovations which influenced all future strategic bomber raids during the war.[24] These were:

* The use of pathfinder aircraft with electronic aids to navigate, to mark the targets before the main bomber raid.
* The use of high explosive bombs and air-mines (blockbuster bombs) coupled with thousands of incendiary bombs intended to set the city ablaze in a firestorm.

The actual death toll of the Coventry Blitz was never officially confirmed. It has been reported that many bodies may never have been found, or had been burnt, blasted or crushed beyond recognition. The destruction of munitions factories may have claimed victims among war workers from other parts of the country who had no close relatives to report them missing. Homeless people with a similar lack of relatives may also have died in the Coventry Blitz.

The British used the opportunity given them by the attack on Coventry to try a new tactic against Germany. The "first deliberate terror raid on a German town was carried out... 16 December 1940 as part of Operation Abigail Rachel... against Mannheim.[25] The British had been waiting for the opportunity to experiment with such a raid, and the opportunity was given after the German raid on Coventry.[25] This was the start of a British drift away from precision attacks on military targets and towards area bombing attacks on whole cities.[25]

This citation, from Wiki, seems to indicate that British firebombing of civilian targets was a response to the Coventry attack.

Andrew Craig-Bennett
10-03-2011, 06:58 AM
I see we cross posted.

I suppose the official answer is that the Germans discovered the technique by accident but they certainly used it deliberately on the 29th December 1940.

Let's have another quote from the same source:

Although official German air doctrine did target civilian morale, it did not espouse the attacking of civilians directly. It hoped to destroy morale by destroying the enemy's factories and public utilities as well as its food stocks (by attacking shipping). Nevertheless, its official opposition to attacks on civilians became an increasingly moot point when large-scale raids were conducted in November and December 1940. Although not encouraged by official policy, the use of mines and incendiaries, for tactical expediency, came close to indiscriminate bombing. Locating targets in skies obscured by industrial haze meant they needed to be illuminated "without regard for the civilian population".[78] (http://forum.woodenboat.com/#cite_note-Hooton_1997.2C_p._34.-79)
Special units such as KGr 100 became the Beleuchtergruppe (Firelighter Group), which used incendiaries and high explosive mark the target area. The tactic was expanded into Feuerleitung (Blaze Control) with the creation of Brandbombfelde (Incendiary Fields) to mark targets. These were marked out by parachute flares. Then bombers carrying SC 1000 (1,000 kg (2,205 lb)), SC 1400 (1,400 kg (3,086 lb)), and SC 1800 (1,800 kg (3,968 lb)) "Satan" bombs were used to level streets and residential areas. By December, the SC 2500 (2,500 kg (5,512 lb)) "Max" bomb was used.[78] (http://forum.woodenboat.com/#cite_note-Hooton_1997.2C_p._34.-79)
These decisions, apparently taken at the Luftflotte or Fliegerkorps level (see Organisation of the Luftwaffe (1933–1945) (http://forum.woodenboat.com/wiki/Organization_of_the_Luftwaffe_(1933%E2%80%931945)) ), meant attacks on individual targets were gradually replaced by what was, for all intents and purposes, an unrestricted area attack or Terror Angriff (Terror Attack).[42] (http://forum.woodenboat.com/#cite_note-Hooton_2010.2C_p._84.-42) Part of the reason for this was inaccuracy of navigation. The effectiveness of British countermeasures against Knickebein, which was designed to avoid area attacks, forced the Luftwaffe to resort to these methods.[42] (http://forum.woodenboat.com/#cite_note-Hooton_2010.2C_p._84.-42) The shift from precision bombing to area attack is indicated in the tactical methods and weapons dropped. KGr 100 increased its use of incendiaries from 13 to 28%. By December, this had increased to 92%.[105] (http://forum.woodenboat.com/#cite_note-Hooton_2010.2C_p._85.-106) Use of incendiaries, which were inherently inaccurate, indicated much less care was taken to avoid civilian property, which was closely located to industrial sites. Other units ceased using parachute flares and opted for explosive target markers.[105] (http://forum.woodenboat.com/#cite_note-Hooton_2010.2C_p._85.-106) Captured German air crews also indicated the homes of industrial workers were deliberately targeted.[105] (http://forum.woodenboat.com/#cite_note-Hooton_2010.2C_p._85.-106)

Andrew Craig-Bennett
10-03-2011, 06:59 AM
See also:

http://]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Great_Fire_of_London

George.
10-03-2011, 06:59 AM
Yes, but German bombing of British cities was a response to the Berlin raid... it's turtles all the way down.

Andrew Craig-Bennett
10-03-2011, 07:02 AM
George, this is a bit of history that is rather well known to quite a few people here; pass up the shovel, stop digging, and get back to the main point of your thread - the world is NOT run by an Anglo-Saxon conspiracy,OK? ;)

George.
10-03-2011, 07:09 AM
Andrew, I am not suggesting the world is run by an Anglo-Saxon conspiracy, or that Churchill was meaner than Hitler, or anything like that. I am just pointing out that double standards are very common in conflict situations, with the same acts being portrayed as just when we do it, and as evil when "they" do it. That applies particularly to the whole issue of aerial bombing of civilians, be they in Dresden, Tokyo, or Waziristan.

Double standards, after all, is the main point of this thread.

Peerie Maa
10-03-2011, 07:51 AM
Andrew, I am not suggesting the world is run by an Anglo-Saxon conspiracy, or that Churchill was meaner than Hitler, or anything like that. I am just pointing out that double standards are very common in conflict situations, with the same acts being portrayed as just when we do it, and as evil when "they" do it. That applies particularly to the whole issue of aerial bombing of civilians, be they in Dresden, Tokyo, or Waziristan.

Double standards, after all, is the main point of this thread.

The shift from bombing strategic targets to civilians was started in error and escalated in a series of tit for tat desisions. Without it, we might have ultimately lost the war.

again from Wiki:

Hitler's No. 17 Directive, issued 1 August 1940 on the conduct of war against England specifically prohibited Luftwaffe from conducting terror raids on its own initiative, and reserved the right of ordering terror attacks as means of reprisal for the Führer himself:[176] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Britain#cite_note-199)
The war against England is to be restricted to destructive attacks against industry and air force targets which have weak defensive forces... The most thorough study of the target concerned, that is vital points of the target, is a pre-requisite for success. It is also stressed that every effort should be made to avoid unnecessary loss of life amongst the civilian population.[177] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Britain#cite_note-200)
The Luftwaffe offensive against Britain had included numerous raids on major ports since August, but Hitler had issued a directive London was not to be bombed save on his sole instruction.[178] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Britain#cite_note-201) However, on the afternoon of 15 August, Hauptmann Walter Rubensdörffer leadingErprobungsgruppe 210 mistakenly bombed the Croydon airfield (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croydon_Airport) (on the outskirts of London) instead of the intended target, RAF Kenley;[179] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Britain#cite_note-202)this was followed on the night of 23/24 August[148] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Britain#cite_note-Taylor_and_Mayer_p.74-169) by the accidental bombing of Harrow (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harrow,_London), also on the outskirts of London, as well as raids onAberdeen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aberdeen), Bristol, and South Wales (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Wales). The focus on attacking airfields had also been accompanied by a sustained bombing campaign which begun on 24 August with the largest raid so far, killing 100 in Portsmouth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portsmouth), and that evening the first night raid on London as described above.[161] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Britain#cite_note-19-24aug-184) On 25 August 1940, 81 bombers of Bomber Command were sent out to raid industrial and commercial targets in Berlin. Clouds prevented accurate identification and the bombs fell across the city, causing some casualties amongst the civilian population as well as damage to residential areas.[180] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Britain#cite_note-203) Continuing RAF raids on Berlin in retaliation led to Hitler withdrawing his directive,[181] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Britain#cite_note-204) and on 3 September Göring planned to bomb London daily, with Kesselring's enthusiastic support, having received reports the average strength of RAF squadrons was down to five or seven fighters out of 12 and their airfields in the area were out of action. Hitler issued a directive on 5 September to attack cities including London.[182] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Britain#cite_note-205)[183] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Britain#cite_note-206) In his speech delivered on 4 September 1940, Hitler threatened to obliterate (ausradieren) British cities if British bombing runs against Germany did not stop.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/9/9f/Bombing_of_London.jpg/220px-Bombing_of_London.jpg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bombing_of_London.jpg)
http://bits.wikimedia.org/skins-1.17/common/images/magnify-clip.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bombing_of_London.jpg)
Bombing of London.


On 7 September, a massive series of raids involving nearly four hundred bombers and more than six hundred fighters targeted docks in the East End of London, day and night. The raids were codenamed Operation Loge (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Blitz#Loge_and_Seeschlange). The RAF anticipated attacks on airfields and 11 Group rose to meet them, in greater numbers than the Luftwaffe expected. The first official deployment of 12 Group's Big Wing took twenty minutes to gain formation, missing its intended target, but encountering another formation of bombers while still climbing. They returned, apologetic about their limited success, and blamed the delay on being requested too late.[162] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Britain#cite_note-7sept-185)[184] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Britain#cite_note-207) Fighter Command had been at its lowest ebb, short of men and machines, and the break from airfield attacks allowed them to recover. 11 Group had considerable success in breaking up daytime raids. 12 Group repeatedly disobeyed orders and failed to meet requests to protect 11 Group airfields, but their experiments with increasingly large Big Wings had some successes. The Luftwaffe began to abandon their morning raids, with attacks on London starting late in the afternoon for 57 consecutive nights of attacks.[185] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Britain#cite_note-8sept-208)

George.
10-03-2011, 07:59 AM
Without it, we might have ultimately lost the war.



I doubt that very much. It consumed something like a third of your war effort, IIRC, and did little good - German industrial production kept rising almost to the end of the war.

You would probably have done much better if you had built tactical bombers, instead of strategic, and sent them to Stalin.

Paul Pless
10-03-2011, 08:06 AM
You would probably have done much better if you had built tactical bombers, instead of strategic, and sent them to Stalin.

Eh? is that you Ian Gatenby???

Paul Pless
10-03-2011, 08:11 AM
German industrial production kept rising almost to the end of the war. Interesting to note that for the last two years of the war, the United States' gross domestic product, was more than that of Austria, Germany, Italy, Japan, France and England combined!

George.
10-03-2011, 08:12 AM
I think we need a "who really won WWII" thread. :D

Paul Pless
10-03-2011, 08:15 AM
I think we need a "who really won WWII" thread. :DIts been a while, looks like this one is shaping up nicely. They often start out of P-51 versus Spitfire thread. . .

S.V. Airlie
10-03-2011, 08:33 AM
I think we need a "who really won WWII" thread. :DEver seen the movie;"The Mouse that Roared"?A Peter Sellers movie if that gives you any idea..:)

Andrew Craig-Bennett
10-03-2011, 08:50 AM
I doubt that very much. It consumed something like a third of your war effort, IIRC, and did little good - German industrial production kept rising almost to the end of the war.

You would probably have done much better if you had built tactical bombers, instead of strategic, and sent them to Stalin.

George. you really are out of your depth here, and should stop.

Nick was referring to Hitler's directive to start bombing civilian targets in 1940, which ended the Luftwaffe's campaign aganst RAF fighter airfields. Had the Luftwaffe continued its campaign against the Chain Home radar stations and the RAF fighter bases, the consensus view of historians is that the RAF would have lost control of the air over southern England in August and September 1940, and the German Army could have put Operation Sea Lion into effect.


Nick was NOT referring to the RAF's bombing campaign against German cities. On that, we probably agree.


Please get back to the subject at hand and stop looking for hyporcrisy where there was none, just, as Nick has pointed out, a series of accidents.

Peerie Maa
10-03-2011, 09:06 AM
Precisely.

Boater14
10-03-2011, 09:19 AM
Criticism from Brazil. That would be the country where you can set your wife on fire if you get tired of her and just walk out of court a free man. A joke post from a joke country.

Paul Pless
10-03-2011, 09:21 AM
Please get back to the subject at hand and stop looking for hyporcrisy where there was none. . .Yes, please return to discussing American hypocrisy only please.

S.V. Airlie
10-03-2011, 09:21 AM
Criticism from Brazil. That would be the country where you can set your wife on fire if you get tired of her and just walk out of court a free man. A joke post from a joke country.Ever been there?

Paul Pless
10-03-2011, 09:24 AM
Criticism from Brazil. That would be the country where you can set your wife on fire if you get tired of her and just walk out of court a free man. A joke post from a joke country.But this isn't just any old Brazilian criticism; this is American expat, World Bank, criticism from Brazil. That's kinda special don't ya think?;)

Boater14
10-03-2011, 09:35 AM
That would be brazil.....where the Nazis fled to and lived right out in the open. Please, let's get enlightenment from the land of endless Carnival.

S.V. Airlie
10-03-2011, 09:41 AM
Try Argentina...Not Brazil..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pursuit_of_Nazi_collaborators#Argentina

Waddie
10-03-2011, 12:24 PM
I think we need a "who really won WWII" thread. :D

No we don't...... It was the Russians.

regards,
Waddie

Andrew Craig-Bennett
10-03-2011, 01:02 PM
Yes, please return to discussing American hypocrisy only please.

Oh, no, we are perfectly happy discussing British hypocrisy, there's plenty of it about. I recently cited the British promises, made in WW1, to give Feisal an Arab Kingdom, to give Syria and Lebanon to France, Palestine to the Jews and Arabis to Ibn Saud, all within the space of 18 months!

We could discuss the British treatment of the Irish, over several hundred years, the acquisition of an empire in a fit of absence of mind, the Opium Wars... please feel free to add to the list.

PhaseLockedLoop
10-03-2011, 01:09 PM
... please feel free to add to the list.

OK, I will. When I was in London years ago, a hotel employee said something like "it's good to have you, sir" whilst looking at me as though I were a pile of poo.

Andrew Craig-Bennett
10-03-2011, 01:29 PM
You're welcome!

(Only the British can make "Sir" into a term of contempt!)

Ccome to think of it, the insincerity of "You're welcome!" and "Have a good day", on your side of the Atlantic grate just as much!)

George.
10-03-2011, 02:09 PM
But this isn't just any old Brazilian criticism; this is American expat, World Bank, criticism from Brazil. That's kinda special don't ya think?;)

Who you calling American, gringo? I'll kick yo ass, right after I finish setting my wife on fire. :mad: :D

Paul Pless
10-04-2011, 08:43 AM
You're welcome!

(Only the British can make "Sir" into a term of contempt!)

Ccome to think of it, the insincerity of "You're welcome!" and "Have a good day", on your side of the Atlantic grate just as much!)The French have the ability to take contemptuous gratuitousness to whole different level. . .