Sail/power

[JEM]

Maybe you all can give me some input: I'm a canoe and kayak guy mostly. But on a camping field trip with my son's school, my son and I got to go sailing. He's hooked and wants a sailboat as do I for the family.

I don't plan on any ocean crossings. In fact, I'll probably only sail on the local lakes/resevoirs. I'd like the boat to double as a recreational power boat (just with a 5 hp or so. No need to get on plane. Displacement is just fine). It'll double as a simple fishing platform and my kids prefer stability over performance.

I've never sailed besides playing around with down-wind umbrellas in kayaks. So something forgiving to a newbee sailor. I plan on taking a couple lessons at the local marina.

From that program, it looks like http://www.boatplans-online.com/proddetail.php?prod=CV16 is the boat for me.

Cheap to build, simple, and effective. But since I don't know much about sail boats, I don't have a way to compare. The Caravelle is said to max-out the use of the 9 sheets of plywood it requires. The designer is a little vague about the best capacity it'll sail at. Most of the time, it'll be 2 adults, 2 young kids and maybe a cooler. I wouldn't mind just a little more capacity without it being a slug or a bear to sail. 4 adults and 2 kids maximum.

Maybe the extra capacity would be a bad idea if I'm a beginner sailor. I just don't know. I do know I'll be a wus and have a trolling motor and battery on board (lashed securly in a dry storage compartment) so if I get where I can't get it home, I'll drop the sails and go under power.

So any thoughts on other designs to consider would be appreciated. I like the looks of dutch prams. I think they would turn some heads done in a bright finish. I don't mind the flat front and kinda prefer them. Different looking and you're getting more stablility for a shorter length boat.

Nothing with a permanent skeg for easier launching. Water isn't too deep at the launch spot I'll frequent the most.

Lengthwise bench seating aslo prefered.

Thanks

[Chris Stewart]

Take a look at John Welsford's Rogue. It may fit your needs pretty well (though I'm not sure about 4 adults and 2 kids and a cooler.) It'll handle a small outboard and row reasonably well, and would probably sail rings around the caravelle. (And it looks so much nicer.)
Read a description at: http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jw/rogue/index.htm

http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jw/rogue/Jenner-Rogue-on-beach.jpg

http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jw/rogue/Rogue-out-rowing.jpg

[james burt]

jem
saw were you were listed, i'm in high point
i have a wooden boat you can try out, should be
easy to build. you can email me off line if you
like. i sail @ the local lake, (Oak Hollow)
and we have classes starting the 16th of this month. ($35) for 6 days.
my p# is 1.800.432.6335 x 5333

take care
mike

[AngWood]

Somewhat simpler to build than Rogue and just a hair larger (with a 720 lb. capacity) is Steve Redmond's Blue Gill:

http://www.sredmond.com/boat_images/BluegillLake_sma.jpg

It's advertised as a versatile sail/power/row boat

[ 05-03-2005, 01:35 PM: Message edited by: AngWood ]

[chrisk]

If I were you I'd take a look at Selway Fisher's web site (http://www.selway-fisher.com) . There are a lot of options there all in one place that can give you some ideas. Sounds like you'd want to look in the day boat (http://www.selway-fisher.com/Dayboat.htm) section. But have a look through the whole site. There are lots of pictures at this site of built boats.

Hey, since you are a canoe/kayaker, save on the motor and take a look at the 50/50 sailing canoe, build one for yourself and each son and let them learn how to sail all by themselves! In fact most of Selway-Fisher's canoes come with sail options and some are large enough for multiple passengers, but not up to 6!

The site makes this claim about the waterman 16:
This boat will take 3 or 4 adults. The plans show a simple sailing rig with removable leeboards. If a simple ridge tent is slung over the gunwales one person can sleep comfortably on the bottom of the hull. Additionally, the hull could be made in 2 halves for easy transport or for construction in a really confined space. Buoyancy can be built-in at each end if required. Construction is simple stitch and tape using 4 sheets of 5 or 6mm ply and around 30 hours will see the canoe ready for painting. Weight is approximately 75 lbs. when using 5/6mm ply.

But, take a look at the Highlander 18. I'm sure you could squeeze 4 adults and 2 kids in there. It should also be pretty stable.

[ 05-04-2005, 02:50 AM: Message edited by: chrisk ]

[Zane Lewis]

Hi,
Not sure how big you want to go but there are plenty of little Hartley 16 trailer sailers around most parts of the world. Big enough for 2 adults and 2 kids and comes with some shelter in the cabin for when it's a little wet for those who want to stay dry. being decked and self righting etc it's a little more forgiving than most open boats and not much heavier (800lb) but a little less attractive than a Welsford. Also look at John Welsford's larger sailing camp boats. Pathfinder,
www.jwboatdesigns.co.nz (http://www.jwboatdesigns.co.nz)
www.hartley-boats.com/16.html (http://www.hartley-boats.com/16.html)
Cheer's
Zane

[ 05-04-2005, 04:39 AM: Message edited by: Zane Lewis ]

[JimD]

I wouldn't mind just a little more capacity without it being a slug or a bear to sail. 4 adults and 2 kids maximum Just my humble opinion but I think you may want to look at slightly larger boats, maybe up to 18 feet or so. Sailboats tend to be faster the longer they get, and safer, more comfortable, too.

[JEM]

Thanks for input all.

After doing some head-scratching, I realized 4 adults is a tall order for what I want to do.

Family of 4 is what I'll build for.

I wanted something along the lines of a punt boat. Like a dummy, I didn't look at what was in my own back yard. Morten Oleson at www.boatplans.dk (http://www.boatplans.dk) shares a forum with me. He has a camper/sail on the drawing board that with a few tweaks, will work great for me.

I feel like a butt for making this post before I looked at his site.

Here's a picture:

http://www.boatplans.dk/logo/mods-02.jpg

But I'm glad I did because I see some very nice designs and have made a local sailing contact!

[Killick]

I agree with JimD.
You need more room in a small sailboat than you might think. Keep in mind that everyone's going to have to relocate on every tack to balance the boat, so workable space becomes a premium.

IMHO, a small 14-footer is really a 2-person boat for all but the most benign wind conditions.

Move up to something in the 18 foot range for 4 folks.

Looking at it from another perspective, though... You'll likely find that not everyone in the family shares your enthusiasm for sailing. ...at least that was my experience. :) You'll probably end up doing most of your sailing with less than the whole gang along.

So since you say you're relatively inexperienced, you might want to stay with a smaller boat. It's less likely to overpower you, and may be sized better for the number of crew you'll have on board for the majority of your outings.

Tony

[Killick]

Whoops... I see you reposted while I was typing up my own.

That's a decent looking vessel for the family. Better suited to your requirements than your initial choice I think.

Good luck with the build and happy sailing.

Tony

[PVanderwaart]

I think the original idea of a Caravelle is a good one. The design is derived from one used in French sailing schools and should be ideal for as a family boat, and for a new sailor.

It's not an especially pretty boat, and a lot of sailors don't like the pram bow, but that's a matter of taste, not performance. My guess is that it would be quicker and easier to build than most of the designs offered as alternates here, and most of them don't have the capacity for 4 adults.

My family had a GP-14. GP stands for general purpose and we used a small OB for power when not racing. Four adults make a crowd. So I think you need a boat bigger than 14'.

[Tom Lathrop]

Here is another local boat, Core Sound 17, that meets all your requirements and has been well tested as a camping family beach cruiser.

http://www.bandbyachtdesigns.com/cs17.htm

Here is a forum of this designer's boats that shows some photos of a canvas cruising cabin that folds down. This boat recently completed the 300 mile Everglades Challenge race from St Petersburg to Key Largo.

http://www.messing-about.com/forum/

It's primarily a sail boat but could handle a small outboard just fine.

[dan-marques]

I would recommend that you take the lessons first before you decide what kind of boat to build and ask the instructors and other experienced sailor what they think. Even then, I'd try to 'hitch' rides on as many local boats as possible (meet people at the marina, be friendly, and maybe offer to exchange some kayaking lesson).

This way, you'd get a sense of what a particular size and style of boat will feel like in different weather conditions at your local lake.

Sailing is an awesome experience, but if you start off in a boat that is too much to handle, or too scary when the weather picks up, you can be quickly overwhelmed. (Just imagine being out of control on a little boat with scared wife and kids). You can always upgrade (smaller, faster, more sporty) later, but if you mess up your and your family's intro to sailing you will probably not have the chance to downgrade as no one else will want to come out with you again.

Another thing I'd recommend, if possible in your area, is to get some lessons for your kids as well (junior program at a yacht club, etc.). In this way, they can grow comfortable with sailing on their own in a structured and protected environment, rather than their first time sailing with their novice father.

Finally, small daysailers can be picked up relativly cheaply, so you might want to save the 'build-it-yourself' boat for the one you'ld like to grow into in a year or two.

[Don Z.]

I know you said you liked the pram, and it's a little larger than some of the others mentioned, but I was thinking that perhaps a Stevenson Weekender or Vacationer may be just the ticket:
http://www.stevproj.com/smsail2.JPG

http://www.stevproj.com/XXMAVIS.JPG

More info here... (http://www.stevproj.com/)

[JimD]

Originally posted by JEM:
Morten Oleson at www.boatplans.dk (http://www.boatplans.dk)

http://www.boatplans.dk/logo/mods-02.jpg If you like something like this then there are many more plans you may want to look at such as beamy, roomy single sail catboats or other other scows, usually sloop rigged. If you go for something with a cabin then you may have to consider if you want a cabin big enough to sleep and/or sit up in which eats up a lot of the boat's potential cockpit, or if you just need the smallest possible cuddy to store the picnic basket and extra clothing which allows for the biggest possible cockpit for day sailing parties.

[peb]

At the risk of being heretical, I am going to recommend a fiberglass boat: a Flying Scot. When I learned how to sail, as an adult, and wanted something I could take 3-4 other people (kids) out on, I ended up choosing a Flying Scot. Not the prettiest boat in the world with a reverse sheer, but a great boat to learn on. The rig is relatively simple, but not too simple. It has no traveller, no backstay, and no spreaders. But it does give the kids plenty to do by working the jib. It is a loose rig, and can be raised easily.

It has a relatively small spinnaker so after you get good at the basics, you can start playing with that.

It planes, so you can get a thrill on some reaches.

The boat has quite of bit of initial stability, a huge cockpit, and quite a bit of power.
It is a difficult boat to sail well (as in racing) for some because you have to learn some vang-sheeting techniques and tactics are all important. But it is a good boat to learn a lot of seamanship skills on.

I have sailed on quite a few types of boats, and I cannot think of a better boat for an adult to learn on than a Scot. I have since moved on, but I have a lot of great family memories on that Scot.

The manufacturer provides unbelievable service. If you have questions, they will get on the phone and spend as much time as you need explaining an issue. And there have been so many built and sailed for so long, there is no new problem you will come across.

Do NOT capsize it, not easy to recover.

Edited to add:
And as for building your own, go ahead and take your time to select a design and then build it right, while you are sailing a Scot.

[ 05-05-2005, 09:26 AM: Message edited by: peb ]

[JEM]

Thanks for the great input all. I've had a couple offers of "come on out and I'll take you sailing on my boat" and found a couple local places to take some lessons from certified instructors.

I've done some canoe sailing so I'm pretty sure I'll enjoy trying a little bigger boat. My son and I had a great time sailing on the camping trip.

I'm a stitch and glue canoe and kayak designer and love building so I'll build rather than buy.

I will keep my eye for a nice used one though. My boss at my "day job" has an 18' Class A with trailer he's trying to get me to buy for $2k. But I want something smaller for now.

I'll be selling the plans for the one I'll build too, so it's a benefit all the way around.

No cabin for me though. Just a nice open, leisure sailer. If I really get into it, then I'll look to build bigger or just buy.