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TANSTAF1
09-21-2011, 02:48 PM
D@mn he's good.

Now if he can just heal the Earth.

http://campaign2012.washingtonexaminer.com/blogs/beltway-confidential/promise-kept-sea-levels-fall-under-obama

"Earlier this month, the European Space Agency's Envisat monitoring, global sea level (http://www.climatedepot.com/a/12830/Breaking-Sea-Level-Continues-Its-Historic-Decline--Envisat-shows-that-the-2-year-long-decline-is-continuing-at-a-rate-of-5mm-per-year)revealed a “two year long decline [in sea level] was continuing, at a rate of 5mm per year.”


'In August 2011, NASA announced that global sea level was dropping and was “a quarter of an inch lower than last summer.” See: NASA: 'Global sea level this summer is a quarter of an inch lower than last summer'

(http://www.climatedepot.com/a/12516/NASA-Global-sea-level-this-summer-is-a-quarter-of-an-inch-lower-than-last-summer)

'The global drop in sea level followed NASA's announcement (http://www.climatedepot.com/a/9880/NASA-Sea-Level-Declining-Around-The-US) that sea level around the U.S. was declining in February 2011.


Most surprising, despite the fact that Obama only said he would only “slow” the rise of the oceans, his presidency has presided over what some scientists are terming an “historic decline" (http://www.real-science.com/uncategorized/sea-level-continues-historic-decline) in global sea levels. Obama appears to have underestimated his own powers to alter sea level.

LeeG
09-21-2011, 02:58 PM
Tanstaf, do you have a favorite scientific interest?

wardd
09-21-2011, 03:00 PM
Tanstaf, do you have a favorite scientific interest?

he's interested in antimatter, antiprotons and anti science

Hot Air
09-21-2011, 03:00 PM
It is a miracle. Praise be.

Hot Air
09-21-2011, 03:03 PM
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-cAjuz01Ytl4/TnoTTBF0kSI/AAAAAAAAGms/QMlMRsIx7-I/s400/Obama_-_Moses_parting_red_sea.jpg (http://forum.woodenboat.com/a/12910/Planet-Healer-Obama-Calls-It-In-2008-he-declared-his-presidency-would-result-in-the-rise-of-the-oceans-beginning-to-slow--And-By-2011-Sea-Level-Drops)

John of Phoenix
09-21-2011, 03:04 PM
It seems the melting ice caps have stimulated the growth of sea sponges and they've not only soaked up all the run off but an extra 1/4 inch as well. Strange.

boatbuddha
09-21-2011, 03:11 PM
Sigh

“This year the continents got an extra dose of rain, so much so that global sea levels actually fell over most of the last year,” said Carmen Boening, an oceanographer and climate scientist at the lab, in a statement.

John of Phoenix
09-21-2011, 03:14 PM
Sigh

“This year the continents got an extra dose of rain, so much so that global sea levels actually fell over most of the last year,” said Carmen Boening, an oceanographer and climate scientist at the lab, in a statement.So it's not the sponges? I'll never trust FoxNews again. :mad:

TANSTAF1
09-21-2011, 03:15 PM
Tanstaf, do you have a favorite scientific interest?

Actually several. I like astronomy and have a 10" Dobsonian.

Hot Air
09-21-2011, 03:20 PM
It is worse than Fox News - it is NASA and the European Space Agency reporting this.

Bobcat
09-21-2011, 03:28 PM
If Obama walked on water, you'd be shaking your head. "I told you he couldn't swim."

TANSTAF1
09-21-2011, 03:49 PM
He's in over his head so he needs to be able to walk on water.

Bobcat
09-21-2011, 03:55 PM
If Obama cured cancer, you'd be shaking your head. "Look at all the oncologists that are now out of work."

Cuyahoga Chuck
09-21-2011, 03:56 PM
Sigh!

LeeG
09-21-2011, 04:03 PM
Actually several. I like astronomy and have a 10" Dobsonian.

damn, that's something to brag about. I had a C90 Celestron for a awhile.

ccmanuals
09-21-2011, 04:05 PM
So it's not the sponges? I'll never trust FoxNews again. :mad:

seemed appropriate

http://images.cheezburger.com/completestore/2010/9/22/ad5b0db4-02c4-4a0f-b106-95c372fdc43a.jpg

LeeG
09-21-2011, 04:05 PM
He's in over his head so he needs to be able to walk on water.

resource overshoot, it's not a partisan problem.

B_B
09-21-2011, 04:09 PM
Sigh

“This year the continents got an extra dose of rain, so much so that global sea levels actually fell over most of the last year,” said Carmen Boening, an oceanographer and climate scientist at the lab, in a statement.

http://www.ouramazingplanet.com/images/stories/sealevel-2-110824-02.jpg

Makes sense - as the earth warms weather patterns change and locations and levels of precipitation change.

B_B
09-21-2011, 04:18 PM
Hmm, a 6 mm drop after a 20cm increase....yep, nothing to look at here folks!
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0f/Recent_Sea_Level_Rise.png/300px-Recent_Sea_Level_Rise.png

Ian McColgin
09-21-2011, 04:31 PM
This from the Washington Post is a bit more informative.

Weather cycles cause a drop in global sea level, scientists find


By Juliet Eilperin, Published: August*25

The global sea level this summer is a quarter of an inch lower than last summer, according to NASA scientists, in sharp contrast to the gradual rise the ocean has experienced in recent years.

The change stems from two strong weather cycles over the Pacific Ocean — El Niño and La Niña — which shifted precipitation patterns, according to scientists at NASA’s Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Pasadena, Calif. The two cycles brought heavy rains to Brazil and Amazon, along with drought to the southern United States.

Researchers monitored the ocean’s width, height, temperature and salinity through satellites and robot-operated floats, and presented their findings Aug. 8 and 9 at the annual Gravity Recovery and Climate Experiment (GRACE) Science Team Meeting in Austin, Tex.

“This year the continents got an extra dose of rain, so much so that global sea levels actually fell over most of the last year,” said Carmen Boening, an oceanographer and climate scientist at the lab, in a statement.

Climate scientist Josh Willis, who also works at NASA’s Jet Propulsion Laboratory, warned that this water will eventually return to the ocean, and the long-term trend of rising sea levels will continue.

“What this show is the impact La Niña and El Niño can have on global rainfall,” he said in an interview, adding scientists need to get a better sense of ice sheet dynamics before they can offer a more precise estimate of future sea level rise. “We really have a lot left to understand before we can do better.”

According to computer climate models, sea levels are expected to rise because water expands as it warms, and the melting of glaciers and ice sheets in Greenland and Antarctica will contribute to global sea levels. The U.N. Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change gave what it called a conservative estimate in 2007 that the ocean could rise between 7 and 23 inches by 2100. Recent research suggests it could rise by as much as 2.5 to 6.5 feet during this period.

The question of how much the ocean could rise due to warming is a topic of intense debate. In the past two decades global sea levels increased at a rate of roughly 0.12 inches a year, compared to 0.07 inches from 1961 to 2003, according to satellite data. A recent tide gauge study of sea levels in Australia and New Zealand, published in the Journal of Coastal Research, provided readings that suggested the rate of ocean rise has declined in the past decade.

Patrick J. Michaels, a senior fellow at the libertarian Cato Institute, noted that recent satellite data shows a slight decline in the rate of sea-level rise, which casts doubt on whether the ocean will expand as some predict by the end of the century.

“I suspect it would have to start rising pretty rapidly in order to fulfill those projections,” Michaels said in an interview.

The findings came as the Government Accountability Office released a report Thursday examining proposed technological methods aimed at manipulating the climate, known as ”geoengineering.”

The GAO report, commissioned by former House Science Committee chairman Bart Gordon (D-Tenn.), concluded that “climate engineering technologies are not now an option for addressing global climate change” given their cost, potential effectiveness and possible consequences. But the report said that the majority of experts the GAO surveyed “supported starting significant climate engineering now” in case humans faced drastic climate change in future decades.

The report identified capturing carbon dioxide from the air and then storing it as the most promising climate engineering technique right now.

Carnegie Institution scientist Ken Caldeira, an expert on climate engineering, wrote in an e-mail that he welcomed the fact that the GAO made a distinction between carbon-capture technologies and ones aimed at deflecting solar radiation. But he questioned why the analysts focused on the need for coordinating geoengineering research, rather than a broader response to the problems climate change poses.

“We need broad coordination of activities to reduce climate risk,” Caldeira wrote. “I don’t think we need coordination only among the narrower, yet very heterogeneous set of activities commonly labeled as ‘geoengineering.’*”

LeeG
09-21-2011, 04:41 PM
Tanstaf, cool isn't it?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravity_Recovery_and_Climate_Experiment

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e6/GRACE_artist_concept.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravity_Recovery_and_Climate_Experiment#How_GRACE_ works

GRACE is the first Earth-monitoring mission in the history of space flight whose key measurement is not derived from electromagnetic waves either reflected off, emitted by, or transmitted through Earth's surface and/or atmosphere. Instead, the mission uses a microwave ranging system to accurately measure changes in the speed and distance between two identical spacecraft flying in a polar orbit about 220 kilometers (137 miles) apart, 500 kilometers (311 miles) above Earth. The ranging system is sensitive enough to detect separation changes as small as 10 micrometres (approximately one-tenth the width of a human hair) over a distance of 220 kilometers. [8]
As the twin GRACE satellites circle the globe 15 times a day, they sense minute variations in Earth's gravitational pull. When the first satellite passes over a region of slightly stronger gravity, a gravity anomaly, it is pulled slightly ahead of the trailing satellite. This causes the distance between the satellites to increase. The first spacecraft then passes the anomaly, and slows down again; meanwhile the following spacecraft accelerates, then decelerates over the same point.
By measuring the constantly changing distance between the two satellites and combining that data with precise positioning measurements from Global Positioning System (GPS) instruments, scientists can construct a detailed map of Earth's gravity.
The two satellites (nicknamed "Tom" and "Jerry") constantly maintain a two-way microwave-ranging link between them. Fine distance measurements are made by comparing frequency shifts of the link. As a cross-check, the vehicles measure their own movements using accelerometers. All of this information is then downloaded to ground stations. To establish baseline positions and fulfill housekeeping functions, the satellites also use star cameras, magnetometers, and GPS receivers. The GRACE vehicles also have optical corner reflectors to enable laser ranging from ground stations, bridging the range between spacecraft positions and Doppler ranges.

PhaseLockedLoop
09-21-2011, 04:46 PM
Actually several. I like astronomy and have a 10" Dobsonian.

You better watch it. When that sucker grows up, he's like to bite yr head off and eat yr kids.

LeeG
09-21-2011, 06:18 PM
this is amazing, hey Tanstaf, I hope our economy can afford these space programs, what with all of our trillion dollar wars protecting the country from a few hundred terrists.

http://www.csr.utexas.edu/grace/

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/31/science/31water.html?_r=2&ref=science

IRVINE, Calif. - Scientists have been using small variations in the Earth's gravity to identify trouble spots around the globe where people are making unsustainable demands on groundwater, one of the planet's main sources of fresh water.

They found problems in places as disparate as North Africa, northern India, northeastern China and the Sacramento-San Joaquin Valley in California, heartland of that state's $30 billion agricultural industry.

Jay S. Famiglietti, director of the University of California's Center for Hydrologic Modeling here, said the center's Gravity Recovery and Climate Experiment, known as Grace, relies on the interplay of two nine-year-old twin satellites that monitor each other while orbiting the Earth, thereby producing some of the most precise data ever on the planet's gravitational variations. The results are redefining the field of hydrology, which itself has grown more critical as climate change and population growth draw down the world's fresh water supplies.

purri
09-21-2011, 06:44 PM
http://www.ouramazingplanet.com/images/stories/sealevel-2-110824-02.jpg

Makes sense - as the earth warms weather patterns change and locations and levels of precipitation change.

I see we've stolen your water

LeeG
09-21-2011, 06:58 PM
quick, make more beer!

TANSTAF1
09-21-2011, 07:07 PM
damn, that's something to brag about. I had a C90 Celestron for a awhile.

It's a Discovery 10" f/5.6. It has a Moonlite dual-speed tri-knob focuser and 4000 tic encoders (but I don't have a computer (yet)). I use my optical, plus a Rigel and a laser finder, plus I mount a smartphone with Google sky on it.

C90s are nice as they are compact.

Other club members warned me about the size/weight. and it is kind of a bear to lug onto a site and I have to use my van or my wagon, but it's doable.

I haven't been able to use mine lately because of eye problems and then last summer because of torn rotator cuffs.

TANSTAF1
09-21-2011, 07:12 PM
Tanstaf, cool isn't it?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravity_Recovery_and_Climate_Experiment

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e6/GRACE_artist_concept.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravity_Recovery_and_Climate_Experiment#How_GRACE_ works

GRACE is the first Earth-monitoring mission in the history of space flight whose key measurement is not derived from electromagnetic waves either reflected off, emitted by, or transmitted through Earth's surface and/or atmosphere. Instead, the mission uses a microwave ranging system to accurately measure changes in the speed and distance between two identical spacecraft flying in a polar orbit about 220 kilometers (137 miles) apart, 500 kilometers (311 miles) above Earth. The ranging system is sensitive enough to detect separation changes as small as 10 micrometres (approximately one-tenth the width of a human hair) over a distance of 220 kilometers. [8]
As the twin GRACE satellites circle the globe 15 times a day, they sense minute variations in Earth's gravitational pull. When the first satellite passes over a region of slightly stronger gravity, a gravity anomaly, it is pulled slightly ahead of the trailing satellite. This causes the distance between the satellites to increase. The first spacecraft then passes the anomaly, and slows down again; meanwhile the following spacecraft accelerates, then decelerates over the same point.
By measuring the constantly changing distance between the two satellites and combining that data with precise positioning measurements from Global Positioning System (GPS) instruments, scientists can construct a detailed map of Earth's gravity.
The two satellites (nicknamed "Tom" and "Jerry") constantly maintain a two-way microwave-ranging link between them. Fine distance measurements are made by comparing frequency shifts of the link. As a cross-check, the vehicles measure their own movements using accelerometers. All of this information is then downloaded to ground stations. To establish baseline positions and fulfill housekeeping functions, the satellites also use star cameras, magnetometers, and GPS receivers. The GRACE vehicles also have optical corner reflectors to enable laser ranging from ground stations, bridging the range between spacecraft positions and Doppler ranges.

Way cool from what I can see in the wiki.

When I was in high school I wanted to be an astronomer, but then I learned astronomers didn't make much money and anyway got interested in other things.

It's just unbelievable how much astronomy has advanced from when I was a kid.

TANSTAF1
09-21-2011, 07:20 PM
this is amazing, hey Tanstaf, I hope our economy can afford these space programs, what with all of our trillion dollar wars protecting the country from a few hundred terrists.

http://www.csr.utexas.edu/grace/

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/31/science/31water.html?_r=2&ref=science

IRVINE, Calif. - Scientists have been using small variations in the Earth's gravity to identify trouble spots around the globe where people are making unsustainable demands on groundwater, one of the planet's main sources of fresh water.

They found problems in places as disparate as North Africa, northern India, northeastern China and the Sacramento-San Joaquin Valley in California, heartland of that state's $30 billion agricultural industry.

Jay S. Famiglietti, director of the University of California's Center for Hydrologic Modeling here, said the center's Gravity Recovery and Climate Experiment, known as Grace, relies on the interplay of two nine-year-old twin satellites that monitor each other while orbiting the Earth, thereby producing some of the most precise data ever on the planet's gravitational variations. The results are redefining the field of hydrology, which itself has grown more critical as climate change and population growth draw down the world's fresh water supplies.

Obviously I am a big supporter of space exploration and I do hope that Congress finds the funds to continue to support it.

I did read with interest an article about NASA funding private space taxis.

Again when I was a kid I was (and still am) a science fiction fan, particularly Robert Heinlein, including the Man who sold the Moon. I guess back then no one thought the government would be the one to explore space.

Flying Orca
09-21-2011, 08:08 PM
I guess back then no one thought the government would be the one to explore space.

I think you need to read more old SF. Heinlein, one of my favourite writers, was a socialist and Democratic party organizer and candidate who became quite disillusioned by the party politics of his day, and by his experiences in WWII. He took a turn for the libertarian (I think it's safe to say that's a more accurate term than "the right") after the war and produced a lot of work (particularly juveniles) emphasizing the self-made protagonist, but he had largely left that phase behind by the mid-sixties.

Anyway, for the most part his libertarian ideals put him at odds with many of his contemporary greats, who envisioned government/military space exploration as more likely than private enterprise.

If you're a big Heinlein fan, I highly recommend his biography. Volume II should be out soon; Volume I is fascinating.

boatbuddha
09-21-2011, 08:27 PM
Actually several. I like astronomy and have a 10" Dobsonian.

Impressive I have a homebuilt 6" Dobsonian. My daughter and I made it, fun times.

Cuyahoga Chuck
09-21-2011, 09:35 PM
Obviously I am a big supporter of space exploration and I do hope that Congress finds the funds to continue to support it.

.

You want what? Space exploration? Your friends in the Teaparty will have something to say about that. If no accomodations are made in congress, and that seems to be the odds-on possibility, the Gang of Twelve will have to start cutting somewhere and NASA will have fewer champions than most.

TANSTAF1
09-22-2011, 07:12 AM
I think you need to read more old SF. Heinlein, one of my favourite writers, was a socialist and Democratic party organizer and candidate who became quite disillusioned by the party politics of his day, and by his experiences in WWII. He took a turn for the libertarian (I think it's safe to say that's a more accurate term than "the right") after the war and produced a lot of work (particularly juveniles) emphasizing the self-made protagonist, but he had largely left that phase behind by the mid-sixties.

Anyway, for the most part his libertarian ideals put him at odds with many of his contemporary greats, who envisioned government/military space exploration as more likely than private enterprise.

If you're a big Heinlein fan, I highly recommend his biography. Volume II should be out soon; Volume I is fascinating.


You may know of Heinlein, but I don't see you can't possibly be a Heinlein fan, or count him as one of your favorite authors. Your posting here indicate you are the complete anti-thesis of everything he came to believe. Like Reagan he saw the light and left the Democratic party. Yes he was a libertarian, but so am I - more so than a conservative. He is my favorite author (not one of). How could you possibly enjoy "Starship Troopers?" I guess I'll have to think about whether there are any of his works that are Democrat socialist, but if you have suggestions, bring 'em. Maybe I'll reread them. I do reread some of his works from time to time, especially my favorite, Time Enough for Love."

Thanks for the thought about biographies on him. While I have every single book he ever wrote and am aware of his life from them or articles in scifi magazines or online, I don't have any of the biographies.

TANSTAF1
09-22-2011, 07:19 AM
You want what? Space exploration? Your friends in the Teaparty will have something to say about that. If no accomodations are made in congress, and that seems to be the odds-on possibility, the Gang of Twelve will have to start cutting somewhere and NASA will have fewer champions than most.

I am a supporter of space exploration whether it be private or government. I guess in that respect I am a hypocrite. I am not aware of an officiial or majority Tea Party view about funding NASA. I am aware of some criticism about the emphasis on educating Muslims and of course on man-made global warming.

However, conservatives were upset about Obama's cuts, and I think (and hope and expect) the Tea Party to support continued funding, perhaps with modest cuts since as we dig our selves out of a huwe pit, probably everything has to be cut some.. I don't know the specific views of the Super Congresscritters on NASA, do you?

TANSTAF1
09-22-2011, 07:30 AM
Impressive I have a homebuilt 6" Dobsonian. My daughter and I made it, fun times.

That's impressive. Did you grind the lens yourself?

That sounds like a fun thing to do with your daughter.

The Amateur Telescope Makers of Boston (ATMB) still has a supply of pyrex left 9last I knew). I'm kinda tempted to make my own, but it's a lot of work and I just don't have the time. I give you great credit.

My lens was ground by Terry Ostahowski as it is one of the older models. I am a rank amateur, but the experts at the ATMB and my other clubs are impressed with the optics.

Meli
09-22-2011, 07:42 AM
You may know of Heinlein, but I don't see you can't possibly be a Heinlein fan, or count him as one of your favorite authors. Your posting here indicate you are the complete anti-thesis of everything he came to believe. Like Reagan he saw the light and left the Democratic party. Yes he was a libertarian, but so am I - more so than a conservative. He is my favorite author (not one of). How could you possibly enjoy "Starship Troopers?" I guess I'll have to think about whether there are any of his works that are Democrat socialist, but if you have suggestions, bring 'em. Maybe I'll reread them. I do reread some of his works from time to time, especially my favorite, Time Enough for Love."

Thanks for the thought about biographies on him. While I have every single book he ever wrote and am aware of his life from them or articles in scifi magazines or online, I don't have any of the biographies.

You dont have to be a junkie to enjoy Philip K Dick either.:rolleyes: Or a socialist to enjoy Mick Farren

(but it probably helps :D)

PeterSibley
09-22-2011, 07:45 AM
Starship Troopers ? Silly me, I thought it was parody .

Meli
09-22-2011, 07:56 AM
Oh I dunno, I quite liked Heinlein when I was a kid. ...Have Spacesuit will travel.... Hmm dont the Earthings have to shelter under "The Mother Thing's" protection to avoid being obliterated by the intergalactic Tribunal for being a pack of violent rapacious mutants. The mother thing was rather a totalitarian socialist as far as I recall. But I was only 14 when I read it :D

TANSTAF1
09-22-2011, 08:01 AM
You dont have to be a junkie to enjoy Philip K Dick either.:rolleyes: Or a socialist to enjoy Mick Farren

(but it probably helps :D)

I guess that's true. "Mankind on the Run" is a favorite book of mine. I have not read any Mick Farren. But I think people tend to like authors who believe somewhat similar to them and while it may be enjoyable to read something that challenges one's beliefs, it is unusual to like a steady diet of that.

PeterSibley
09-22-2011, 08:03 AM
Yep, most of us have grown up since then ....... but I still thought it was parody at 14 ! A kind of subtle parody of post WW2 schoolboy war comics.BY:D

Meli
09-22-2011, 08:11 AM
beliefs smeefs, Heinlein wrote stories for children. Most kids dont look too hard at the political aspects.
But I turned off him when he started on the survivalist crap.

If you refuse to read authors based on their personal politics you lose.

Ursula Le Guin is recognised as one of the greatest writers of the 20thC Shame if you dont read her because of her political outlook.

James McMullen
09-22-2011, 08:39 AM
My favorite part is how after his original premise turned out to be just nonsensically over-hyped and misunderstood partisan bull boogers, ol' TAN completely ignores even the accurate and scientifically based rebuttals, complete with sources and graphical illustrations, and goes straight into deflective non-sequitur mode.

Good job, TANner! Now that's the way to win an battle when you're completely out of ammo! I sure hope no one else notices.

Flying Orca
09-22-2011, 08:40 AM
I don't see you can't possibly be a Heinlein fan, or count him as one of your favorite authors.

Maybe, just maybe, I live in a world that is more complex and nuanced than yours. Certainly, you have a rather mistaken idea of my personal political views. There's a whole lot of assumption happening on your part, and you know what they say about that. ;)


Like Reagan he saw the light and left the Democratic party.

At least initially (as you would know from his biography), it would be more accurate to say the Democratic party left him... which is to say that he was an Upton Sinclair socialist, and became disgusted with the Communists' efforts to undermine and sideline the socialists. Later, as noted, he became a champion of libertarian ideals; some of his friends attribute this to the influence of his last wife Ginny. I think the truth is, yes, more complex and nuanced than that; self-reliance and personal liberty were values he absorbed very early.

You don't seem to grasp the fact that people can value self-reliance and personal liberty and yet disagree with Republican or Tea Party politics.


How could you possibly enjoy "Starship Troopers?"

Why shouldn't I? IIRC, one of the basic messages in that work as in many of his others is that people owe service to their state. I agree, though I would cast the frame slightly wider and say that people owe service to their society in general. I also believe that military service is not the only or even the best way to serve one's society, though of course it is sometimes necessary (I abhor unnecessary wars, as you might have gathered).

Overall, I would say that the problem here is your perceived disconnect between your conception of Heinlein's message and your conception of my political views. I daresay we differ on both conceptions. You don't have to be an Ayn "It's OK to be a douchebag" Rand fan to enjoy Heinlein's writing.

LeeG
09-22-2011, 08:48 AM
My favorite part is how after his original premise turned out to be just nonsensically over-hyped and misunderstood partisan bull boogers, ol' TAN completely ignores even the accurate and scientifically based rebuttals, complete with sources and graphical illustrations, and goes straight into deflective non-sequitur mode.

Good job, TANner! Now that's the way to win an battle when you're completely out of ammo! I sure hope no one else notices.

doubt if tanstaf notices

PhaseLockedLoop
09-22-2011, 09:19 AM
Isn't Heinlein the one who, in several books, had his protagonist require some group of folks to take of their clothes on the flimsiest of pretexts--like it was hot in the bunker or some such? The group always seemed to include a gorgeous nubile babe with intelligence out to here who needed mentoring.

I was pretty frosty about Heinlein until I discovered he'd suggested an idea to Theodore Sturgeon, who took it and wrote one of my favorite stories: And Now The News.

Bobcat
09-22-2011, 09:23 AM
doubt if tanstaf notices

but we do!

James McMullen
09-22-2011, 09:25 AM
Hey, how come no one has mentioned yet all the orgies and promiscuity and incest and stuff in all of Heinlein's later books? He did write books after 1952 you know.

LeeG
09-22-2011, 09:25 AM
Isn't Heinlein the one who, in several books, had his protagonist require some group of folks to take of their clothes on the flimsiest of pretexts--like it was hot in the bunker or some such? The group always seemed to include a gorgeous nubile babe with intelligence out to here who needed mentoring.
.

I think that's when I lost interest in him.

Bobcat
09-22-2011, 09:26 AM
Later Heinlein books always have stunningly beautiful women who want to mate with the main character.

I read most of his books as a kid. They're not very interesting now

TANSTAF1
09-22-2011, 09:54 AM
Starship Troopers ? Silly me, I thought it was parody .

Many believe the movie was either a very bad rendition or a parody. The movie P'd me off as I would liked others of his works to have been made into movies and it was so badly done that I now doubt that will ever happen. I never thought of the book itself being a parody. I can appreciate why you would think so.

coelacanth2
09-22-2011, 09:30 PM
I bought "Starship Troopers" when paper acks were $0.75 to $0.95 each and enjoyed it as space opera. Being about ten at the time, that wasabout right. Bought it for my son a couple of years ago and re-read it. I never thought of it as a parody but rather as a layered warning. The movie was simplistic hash of part of the book, ok for the effects but lacking in most of the politics- the original had Terra shifting alliances with several alien polities,'in a version of Orwell's forever war. I have recently come to think that Heinlein meant it as 1) a warning against weakness 2) a model for society - you are not required to serve but must serve society if you wish to vote 3) a warning against a militarist state.

I do believe he may have been the first to postulate powered armor.

TANSTAF1
09-23-2011, 06:37 AM
It's interesting that you see it as a warning against a militarist society. It's been a long time since I (re-)read it (I think I reread it when I gave it to my kids when they were ten or so but that was twenty years ago).

Your other point about being required to serve in the military (or in your view society) again demonstrates Heinlein was way ahead of his time. He thought people should have some skin in the game to vote. (Granted in John of Phoenix's view I only had the tip of one little pinky's fingernail but I think i qualify.)

I guess Heinlein did not foresee the time when more than 50% of the people do not pay taxes yet have the ability to vote themselves bread and circuses as long as they keep their elite masters in the style to which they wish to become accustomed. I think he thought that with the assistance of machines there would be enough wealth available to give everyone a sufficient lifestyle without being a drag on working people.

Flying Orca
09-23-2011, 07:05 AM
I guess Heinlein did not foresee the time when more than 50% of the people do not pay taxes

And exactly what time is that? It's certainly not now, because even those who pay no federal income taxes (which is probably what you mean) pay plenty of other taxes.

You really should stop repeating that baldfaced lie. It reduces your credibility, which has already taken a beating.

James McMullen
09-23-2011, 07:14 AM
Oh I don't know, Orca. If you consider giant corporations like GE and Exxon to be people like our Supreme Court now does, then it may be well be true. Lord knows we don't want to infringe on these "people's" rights to make record-breaking profits in a recession economy by rescinding their tax loopholes and federal subsidies. What kind of heartless monster could even conceive of such a thing? Won't someone think of the children?!?

James McMullen
09-23-2011, 07:17 AM
Anyways, whether it's actually true or not, I choose to believe it because it reinforces the rosy web of personal narrative I've constructed and through which I see the world.

Flying Orca
09-23-2011, 07:20 AM
If you consider giant corporations like GE and Exxon to be people like our Supreme Court now does, then it may be well be true.

http://warisacrime.org/sites/afterdowningstreet.org/files/images/texas.jpg

:D

TANSTAF1
09-23-2011, 07:28 AM
And exactly what time is that? It's certainly not now, because even those who pay no federal income taxes (which is probably what you mean) pay plenty of other taxes.

You really should stop repeating that baldfaced lie. It reduces your credibility, which has already taken a beating.

i assume you are referring to the payroll taxes paid by the working poor as opposed to those who just sit home and swipe their EBT card. But, but, but as you Lefties would say, payroll deductions are not a tax, why they're an investment (in a non-ponzi scheme) insurance retirement plan. so now we really can't count them as taxes can we?

Anyway, I sort of sit corrected. I see t=from the first link that came up, it's only 45% that pay no taxes rather than 50%. Whoopie do. I rounded up.

http://www.ehow.com/info_8023998_percent-pay-federal-income-taxes.html

James McMullen
09-23-2011, 08:15 AM
See? It really doesn't matter if it's true or not. What's important is whether it suits my preconceived notions.

Flying Orca
09-23-2011, 10:11 AM
i assume you are referring to the payroll taxes paid by the working poor

No, I'm referring to all the taxes that people pay other than federal income tax, which is the only tax covered by your link and by your badly worded assertion.

Other taxes include state income tax; payroll taxes for Social Security, Medicare, and unemployment (Wikipedia calls these items taxes, and that's what we'd call them here in Canada, so that's good enough for me); sales and excise taxes; property taxes; import duties; estate and gift taxes; licenses and occupational taxes; and user fees.

Gerarddm
09-23-2011, 10:54 AM
You want sex in SciFi? Dahlgren, by Samuel Delany. Hetero, homo, bi-, you got it.

TANSTAF1
09-23-2011, 10:57 AM
Sorry, when I said (just) "taxes" I meant federal income taxes. Although this generally if one does not pay federal taxes I think it is likely that they also do not pay state income taxes as well.

As for the other standard payroll deductions, ss is the largest, but people get a direct benefit from that (if they live long enough). So it's really an investment (in Lib speak) in a (ponzi) retirement/insurance scheme. The other standard deductions are much smaller.

States may also have sales or property taxes in addition to an income tax or in lieu there of. These may be significant and tough to avoid so yes everyone has to pay some other taxes or fees. That includes even free loaders have to pay some taxes with money they receive from the taxpayers.

I had federal income taxes in mind but unfortunately did not qualify it and so I agree my comment was not well worded.

TANSTAF1
09-23-2011, 10:59 AM
Actually there's a fair amount of (non-graphic) sex of most imaginable types in Heinlein's non-juvenile fiction. EF or FF?