The Pat Tillman Story?

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  • bamamick
    Senior Member
    • Nov 2003
    • 14774

    The Pat Tillman Story?

    I saw this for the first time yesterday and I have since spent a lot of time thinking about it. I wanted to ask my friends here what they thought about something but I am having a hell of a time phrasing my question.

    When a young man dies for his country, for what did he die?

    I know little of Pat Tillman. I remember him in college and in the NFL. I remember that he was greatly affected by 9/11 and that shortly thereafter he quit football and joined the army. I remember that he died. I never believed he was any more noble than anyone else who signed up after 9/11 and I never thought him necessarily a hero for having died 'in combat', once again, not any moreso than anyone of the hundreds and thousands of other who have died. The fact that he was gifted athletically never entered my mind as far as my feelings about either his service or his death. I understand that he was and still is being used as a symbol by people, but I am not someone who thinks that way. A kid from my county got killed over there last week and his death is just as tragic and important as was Tillman's, imo.

    What really struck me in this film was not Mr. Tillman's life or even necessarily his death, though I must admit that I was quite touched by the circumstances surrounding the way he died. What really got to me were the comments that Pat's brother and brother-Rangers said he had made about his time in Iraq (that this was a f***ed up, ILLEGAL war. That we did not have the right to do what we were doing in Iraq by destroying public property and violating people's rights), and his behaviour in Afghanistan.

    So basically, and someone PLEASE correct me if I am wrong, a young idealist gives up a high profile career to 'serve' his country? Is that the right word? Or did he join to 'pay back' terrorists in the Middle East for what they had done on 9/11? Regardless, like most young idealists, he seems to have been discouraged and somewhat jaded by what he found as reality in Iraq and then just played out the string until his unfortunate death in 2004.

    So back to my question: everyone knows this stuff by now. Everyone knows that politicians will lie and twist things until they don't even resemble the truth any more. Everyone knows that our war in Afghanistan will continue on being fought by very small patrols of 12-20 men in isolated places with little help and that occasionally we will lose some folks. Yet they still sign up and they still go. Why? Why do they do it? And when they die, what are they sacrificing themselves for? Is this the way it has to be so that I can live freely? So that I have security in my life? That these young guys have to die? When Pat Tillman's mother talked about him giving up his life for his country, what in the heck is she talking about?

    I am sorry. I didn't intend to write this much.

    Mickey Lake
    'A disciple of the Norse god of aesthetically pleasing boats, Johan Anker'
  • Paul Pless
    pinko commie tree hugger
    • Oct 2003
    • 124804

    #2
    Re: The Pat Tillman Story?

    I highly recommend the Sports Illustrated Story from Sept 5th, 2006. It may be the best written article to ever appear in SI.

    link

    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

    Comment

    • Kevin T
      Senior Member
      • Nov 2009
      • 5414

      #3
      Re: The Pat Tillman Story?

      Good points, did he die for his Country? Personally I don't believe so. Does his mom have to keep telling herself that he died for his Country? Yes, because if she faced the reality of the senselessness of her boy's death, and that he was killed by friendly fire (which his own country initially covered up) her own life would be that much more unbearable.
      "Unrepentant Reprobate"
      Lew Barrett


      Comment

      • LeeG
        Senior Member
        • May 2002
        • 72779

        #4
        Re: The Pat Tillman Story?

        Originally posted by bamamick
        And when they die, what are they sacrificing themselves for?

        Mickey Lake
        the national interest as interpreted by those sending them to war. It's that vague. It's not for your personal security or your ability to exercise your rights. Check with Paul Wolfowitz.

        Comment

        • John of Phoenix
          Senior Member
          • Jun 2001
          • 31214

          #5
          Re: The Pat Tillman Story?

          Everyone knows that our war in Afghanistan will continue on being fought by very small patrols of 12-20 men in isolated places with little help and that occasionally we will lose some folks. Yet they still sign up and they still go. Why? Why do they do it?
          Soldiers sign up for Country. They go into battle for their buddies and out of personal honor.*

          And when they die, what are they sacrificing themselves for?
          Same as above.

          Is this the way it has to be so that I can live freely? So that I have security in my life? That these young guys have to die?
          They told us if we didn't kill 'em in the jungles of Vietnam we'd have to kill 'em in the corn fields of Kansas. Iraq & Afghanistan is the same lie.

          When Pat Tillman's mother talked about him giving up his life for his country, what in the heck is she talking about?
          You'd have to ask her. The expresion is "Duty, Honor, Country". When I was in combat, I never once thought about Country. Duty to my buddies and my own honor.

          *Speaking only for myself in all responses.

          Comment

          • bamamick
            Senior Member
            • Nov 2003
            • 14774

            #6
            Re: The Pat Tillman Story?

            Thanks, John. This is what I had always heard, that you sign up for country, but that gets pushed to the rear pretty quickly. So my next question is this: knowing what you just wrote, why do they still sign up? If they are fighting for their buddies first, they wouldn't have to fight if there weren't any buddies there, correct? So this is just some self-perpetuating myth and it serves someone's purpose to keep feeding it and keeping it alive, and because of that these guys will keep on signing up and getting blown up a few at a time.

            See, I have a friend with two sons who are Marines, and I have always kept quiet about it, but I will be darned if I would have encouraged them to join. Proud of them when they made that decision on their own? Sure. Proud that they conduct themselves honorably? Of course. But I would never have encouraged them, because if, heaven forbid, one of them was seriously wounded or worse, I would never be able to feel that it was worth it.

            I mean, all of these kids who get maimed or killed, where is their movie? Who feels it when these guys die? Do we feel it? Have I been asked to make one personal sacrifice for this 'war'? Ah well. Can't do anything about it this morning.

            Mickey Lake
            'A disciple of the Norse god of aesthetically pleasing boats, Johan Anker'

            Comment

            • John Smith
              Senior Member
              • Mar 2009
              • 48675

              #7
              Re: The Pat Tillman Story?

              Originally posted by bamamick
              I saw this for the first time yesterday and I have since spent a lot of time thinking about it. I wanted to ask my friends here what they thought about something but I am having a hell of a time phrasing my question.

              When a young man dies for his country, for what did he die?

              I know little of Pat Tillman. I remember him in college and in the NFL. I remember that he was greatly affected by 9/11 and that shortly thereafter he quit football and joined the army. I remember that he died. I never believed he was any more noble than anyone else who signed up after 9/11 and I never thought him necessarily a hero for having died 'in combat', once again, not any moreso than anyone of the hundreds and thousands of other who have died. The fact that he was gifted athletically never entered my mind as far as my feelings about either his service or his death. I understand that he was and still is being used as a symbol by people, but I am not someone who thinks that way. A kid from my county got killed over there last week and his death is just as tragic and important as was Tillman's, imo.

              What really struck me in this film was not Mr. Tillman's life or even necessarily his death, though I must admit that I was quite touched by the circumstances surrounding the way he died. What really got to me were the comments that Pat's brother and brother-Rangers said he had made about his time in Iraq (that this was a f***ed up, ILLEGAL war. That we did not have the right to do what we were doing in Iraq by destroying public property and violating people's rights), and his behaviour in Afghanistan.

              So basically, and someone PLEASE correct me if I am wrong, a young idealist gives up a high profile career to 'serve' his country? Is that the right word? Or did he join to 'pay back' terrorists in the Middle East for what they had done on 9/11? Regardless, like most young idealists, he seems to have been discouraged and somewhat jaded by what he found as reality in Iraq and then just played out the string until his unfortunate death in 2004.

              So back to my question: everyone knows this stuff by now. Everyone knows that politicians will lie and twist things until they don't even resemble the truth any more. Everyone knows that our war in Afghanistan will continue on being fought by very small patrols of 12-20 men in isolated places with little help and that occasionally we will lose some folks. Yet they still sign up and they still go. Why? Why do they do it? And when they die, what are they sacrificing themselves for? Is this the way it has to be so that I can live freely? So that I have security in my life? That these young guys have to die? When Pat Tillman's mother talked about him giving up his life for his country, what in the heck is she talking about?

              I am sorry. I didn't intend to write this much.

              Mickey Lake
              To a large extent it depends on the war. I'm of the opinion that all "wars" since WWII wasted lives.

              I suspect everyone individual joins the military for different reasons. It's politically incorrect to say this, but giving up a high paying career to fight in Afghanistan is not the action of a hero, but a nut. Most people, I believe, enlist because there are so few opportunies for jobs: maybe these two things are intentional. If we had a good economy with lots of good jobs, we might not have any enlistees.

              I don't like painting all of our government with a single broad brush. Someone decided to lie about how Tillman died. Someone decided to make up the Jessica Lynch story. Someone, back in Vietnam, decided to spray agent orange on our troops, then lie about it.

              John Kerry took incredible heat for his testimony before Congress. History proved him correct and honest.

              We were lied to about WMD's. Back in Vietnam we were lied to about the Gulf of Tonkin

              Lying to cover one's ass is humna nature. Problem is, we seem to view it as free speech. No one is ever held accountable. Why is that?
              "Banning books in spite of the 1st amendment, but refusing to regulate guns in spite of "well regulated militia' being in the 2nd amendment makes no sense. Can't think of anyone ever shot by a book

              Comment

              • John of Phoenix
                Senior Member
                • Jun 2001
                • 31214

                #8
                Re: The Pat Tillman Story?

                why do they still sign up?
                You'd have to ask them. Part is the economy but I suspect you'd get a story about a sackacrap, lying bastard recruiter. I had wanted to fly since I was a toddler. That meant a college degree to become an Air Force fighter pilot. One day a college buddy showed me a recruiting poster of a Cobra in a dive, guns and rockets blazing. At the bottom was written - "Two years of college preferred". It was 1968 and the campus was in turmoil - strikes, riots, fights. We both signed up the following week. He did it on a lark because he was sick of school but I was determined to be a Cobra pilot. We had to fake his eye exam to get him into flight school but we both got our wings.

                If they are fighting for their buddies first, they wouldn't have to fight if there weren't any buddies there, correct?
                That's a little too simple but correct none the less. The problem is they keep sending these kids over there because... $ see next item $

                So this is just some self-perpetuating myth and it serves someone's purpose to keep feeding it and keeping it alive, and because of that these guys will keep on signing up and getting blown up a few at a time.
                "Someone" indeed. For all the good it did, we were warned about the military industrial complex in Ike's departing speech. That was 50 years and half a dozen wars ago.

                See, I have a friend with two sons who are Marines, and I have always kept quiet about it, but I will be darned if I would have encouraged them to join. Proud of them when they made that decision on their own? Sure. Proud that they conduct themselves honorably? Of course. But I would never have encouraged them, because if, heaven forbid, one of them was seriously wounded or worse, I would never be able to feel that it was worth it.
                I'm occasionally asked to council young men about a military career. I recommend that they get a bachelor's degree in anything at all that interests them then apply for a Coast Guard, Air Force or Navy commission (in that order) and to steer clear of the grunt stuff.

                I mean, all of these kids who get maimed or killed, where is their movie?
                They'll get a movie some day. It took awhile but there were a number of Vietnam movies. Mostly crap. "Hurt Locker", about the EOD squad in Iraq, won several awards.
                Here's a point that I'd like to make. Every guy I know who's been in combat says he is FOREVER changed. I don't think a man kill another human without being affected for the rest of his life. There was an episode on MASH where the shrink was featured. He had a line I've never forgotten, "The wounds that don't bleed and the scars that don't show." That's the hidden but astronomical cost of our wars and why I recommend staying away from the dirty combat services.

                Who feels it when these guys die? Do we feel it?
                That falls to the buddies, the families and friends. When people hear the numbers, 4,000 dead; 20,000 wounded; 250,000 civilians dead, it doesn't register - the mind just won't allow it. Try this - imagine a bright shiny penny for every person. Try to imagine how big the pile would be if it was just pennies. What would a pile of $3,000 in pennies look like? Then imagine the pile of bodies.

                Have I been asked to make one personal sacrifice for this 'war'?
                I seem to remember the order was "Be alert and go shopping."
                Last edited by John of Phoenix; 09-09-2011, 10:22 AM.

                Comment

                • John Smith
                  Senior Member
                  • Mar 2009
                  • 48675

                  #9
                  Re: The Pat Tillman Story?

                  Originally posted by bamamick
                  Thanks, John. This is what I had always heard, that you sign up for country, but that gets pushed to the rear pretty quickly. So my next question is this: knowing what you just wrote, why do they still sign up? If they are fighting for their buddies first, they wouldn't have to fight if there weren't any buddies there, correct? So this is just some self-perpetuating myth and it serves someone's purpose to keep feeding it and keeping it alive, and because of that these guys will keep on signing up and getting blown up a few at a time.

                  See, I have a friend with two sons who are Marines, and I have always kept quiet about it, but I will be darned if I would have encouraged them to join. Proud of them when they made that decision on their own? Sure. Proud that they conduct themselves honorably? Of course. But I would never have encouraged them, because if, heaven forbid, one of them was seriously wounded or worse, I would never be able to feel that it was worth it.

                  I mean, all of these kids who get maimed or killed, where is their movie? Who feels it when these guys die? Do we feel it? Have I been asked to make one personal sacrifice for this 'war'? Ah well. Can't do anything about it this morning.

                  Mickey Lake
                  Remember the ban on showing coffins coming home? We don't want the people to realize people get killed or wounded in war.

                  I was opposed to invading either Iraq or Afghanistan. I never understood how you defeat a terrorist organization that knows no borders by invading specific countries.

                  We have a politically correct philosphy in this nation where one cannot come out and say the lives lost in those wars have been wasted. Howard Dean's campaign ended when we captured Saddam and Dean pointed out it wouldn't change anything.

                  Even the 9/11 memorials are politically correct. I get people angry with me when I remember the event in the context of the warnings our president had ignored. It's entirely POSSIBLE that, had he heeded those warnings, this attack could have been thwarted. Can't know, but it's possible.

                  It was our reaction to that attack that led to the two wars we are still engaged in and still borrowing the money to fight. These two wars have killed far more innocent people than the 9/11 attack killed. We were treated to arbitrary color codes for danger levels, and told to "go shopping".

                  The attack on 9/11 was absolutely horrible. Our response was equally as horrible, and embarrassing.
                  "Banning books in spite of the 1st amendment, but refusing to regulate guns in spite of "well regulated militia' being in the 2nd amendment makes no sense. Can't think of anyone ever shot by a book

                  Comment

                  • B_B
                    Banned
                    • Sep 2001
                    • 6506

                    #10
                    Re: The Pat Tillman Story?

                    Originally posted by bamamick
                    ...Everyone knows that politicians will lie and twist things until they don't even resemble the truth any more....
                    You posit some good questions, which I cannot answer at the moment. But I'd like to remind you that the lies with regard to this incident were told by the military.

                    That being said I cannot draw a distinction between being killed by enemy fire or by friendly fire. They're both tragic, they're both deadly, they're both common. If one chooses to venerate and celebrate the deaths of soldiers for death by enemy fire then one ought, in my opinion, venerate and celebrate the deaths of the soldiers by friendly fire.

                    If one chooses to hold combat death in high regard then I don't see how one is less honourable, less sacrificial, less deserving of praise, than the other.

                    Comment

                    • bobbys
                      Senior Member
                      • Jun 2009
                      • 30711

                      #11
                      Re: The Pat Tillman Story?

                      Originally posted by Paul Pless
                      I highly recommend the Sports Illustrated Story from Sept 5th, 2006. It may be the best written article to ever appear in SI.

                      link

                      .

                      The keyways on that roof are way off, A bad job.

                      Bobbys the woofer out...

                      Comment

                      • John Smith
                        Senior Member
                        • Mar 2009
                        • 48675

                        #12
                        Re: The Pat Tillman Story?

                        Originally posted by Braam Berrub
                        You posit some good questions, which I cannot answer at the moment. But I'd like to remind you that the lies with regard to this incident were told by the military.

                        That being said I cannot draw a distinction between being killed by enemy fire or by friendly fire. They're both tragic, they're both deadly, they're both common. If one chooses to venerate and celebrate the deaths of soldiers for death by enemy fire then one ought, in my opinion, venerate and celebrate the deaths of the soldiers by friendly fire.



                        If one chooses to hold combat death in high regard then I don't see how one is less honourable, less sacrificial, less deserving of praise, than the other.
                        You've got that right. Dead is dead. Even if one is killed by the shower.
                        "Banning books in spite of the 1st amendment, but refusing to regulate guns in spite of "well regulated militia' being in the 2nd amendment makes no sense. Can't think of anyone ever shot by a book

                        Comment

                        • Cuyahoga Chuck
                          # 7727
                          • Dec 2003
                          • 12984

                          #13
                          Re: The Pat Tillman Story?

                          Originally posted by John Smith
                          Lying to cover one's ass is humna nature. Problem is, we seem to view it as free speech. No one is ever held accountable. Why is that?
                          A nation is an institution like any other instution in that it needs a hierarchy at the top to run the show. The hierarchy may be good or bad but it is needed. Democracy uses the vote to say who should lead. If the voters choose unwisely the institution may suffer but there is no help for it. Sombody has to be at the top calling the shots.

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