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Chris Coose
09-05-2011, 07:54 PM
Here we go.

"Painting herself as a "constitutional conservative" Minnesota Rep. Michele Bachmann told Sen. Jim DeMint's forum Monday that if elected president she would look to get rid of the Department of Education, among other things."
http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2011/09/05/bachmann-why-is-there-a-department-of-education/?hpt=hp_t2

I'd like to paint her with a can of yellow baby ****.

WX
09-05-2011, 08:03 PM
I guess she wants to keep the ignorant masses that way.

hokiefan
09-05-2011, 08:08 PM
Education is primarily driven locally. What I see from state and federal involvement is bureaucracy. The Savannah/Chatham County School Board once spent 275K to get a 300K federal grant. Is that really a good use of anyone's money?

My two cents. On this I might agree with her. Precious little else so far.

Cheers,

Bobby

Ian McColgin
09-05-2011, 08:13 PM
If kids get an education, they will see right through her, just as their parents who got past 8th grade do.

Chris Coose
09-05-2011, 08:17 PM
Straight up you've got it right hokie but the agenda is to crush public education and when it comes to this conservative constitutionalist BS, they will pick and choose what fits and public education goes first. Is the development of the national highway system an item found in the constitution? How about subsidies for Exxon?
We gonna hear that out of this fool?

WX
09-05-2011, 08:21 PM
Federalise the schools and standardise the curriculum...oh and remove ID from the curriculum.

Fernir
09-05-2011, 08:26 PM
Although I, Sir Ken and Michele Bachmann might sound, on the surface, similar.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDZFcDGpL4U

Don't believe it.

Michele Bachman has an agenda.

The education revolution is not about religion or religious indoctrination.

Waddie
09-05-2011, 08:37 PM
Education needs to be standardized, a high school diploma earned in Washington needs to be worth the same as one earned in New Mexico. Who best to oversee this?

Why ? We don't standardize colleges or trade schools and we have the highest rated post secondary system in the world. Hospitals and medical schools aren't standardized, I could name lots of educational programs that are very successful despite not being standardized.

There is nothing wrong with local control of education. Abuses find their way to the courts readily enough.

Why is it that for some people the answer to every problem is to federalize it ? What happens if the dreaded conservative devils ever again take over all the branches of the federal government? If everything is federalized, you just gave tremendous power to the satanists. The smart move for them would be to abandon the "smaller government" position and make use of all that power to remake the nation along the lines they prefer. Since everything was federalized, the liberals couldn't stop them.

Be careful what you wish for........ :)

regards,
Waddie

ishmael
09-05-2011, 08:53 PM
When I was in public schools there was no Department of Education. By most accounts the schools were better then than they are now. Just what shifted, I'm not sure, but I don't think the notion of eliminating the Department of Education is a reason to get your undies in a twist.

Fernir
09-05-2011, 08:54 PM
We don't standardize colleges or trade schools and we have the highest rated post secondary system in the world. Hospitals and medical schools aren't standardized, I could name lots of educational programs that are very successful despite not being standardized.]

No. No you couldn't " name lots of educational programs that are very successful despite not being standardized".

Unless you count the profitability of the unstandardized educational programs.

Unfortunately, the non-standard education programs you refer to have non transferable credits, and their "graduates" have a 90% [citation needed] unemployment rate.

DeVry, Phoenix, ITT. care to name any others that offer degree classes in Locksmithing or Forensic Apprentice?

The student loan bubble is the next and very immediate one that is going to burst.

I'm sure you will manage to blame that one on "the government" as well. Fool.

:)

WX
09-05-2011, 09:00 PM
http://www.thedoghousediaries.com/?p=2891

PeterSibley
09-05-2011, 09:02 PM
Why ? We don't standardize colleges or trade schools and we have the highest rated post secondary system in the world. Hospitals and medical schools aren't standardized, I could name lots of educational programs that are very successful despite not being standardized.

There is nothing wrong with local control of education. Abuses find their way to the courts readily enough.

Why is it that for some people the answer to every problem is to federalize it ? What happens if the dreaded conservative devils ever again take over all the branches of the federal government? If everything is federalized, you just gave tremendous power to the satanists. The smart move for them would be to abandon the "smaller government" position and make use of all that power to remake the nation along the lines they prefer. Since everything was federalized, the liberals couldn't stop them.

Be careful what you wish for........ :)

regards,
Waddie

Because people move state to state and take their kids with them There is no better way to stuff up a child's education than to take them from a school in on state that say will start calculus next week to one that started last year . That child is very very likely to fail math and probably loose a college place .A huge hole in an otherwise more productive life.

How many million people move interstate each year ?

hokiefan
09-05-2011, 09:12 PM
Because people move state to state and take their kids with them There is no better way to stuff up a child's education than to take them from a school in on state that say will start calculus next week to one that started last year . That child is very very likely to fail math and probably loose a college place .A huge hole in an otherwise more productive life.

How many million people move interstate each year ?

I'll disagree. Calculus is a full year class in high school, usually senior year. A kid that never gets to calculus in high school can still do just fine in college, despite what many parents think. I know that for a fact, as I never had it in high school. Yet somehow managed to get a B+ in all three quarters of 5 hour calculus in college, the difficult calculus engineers and physics majors had to take. That class weeded out many a wannabe engineer. That, and difficult equations!

My wife changed schools and never learned officially to write in cursive. She managed to get through a Biology Major with a 4.0 average her last two years. Not so stuffed up.

Our system isn't so perfect as to not need work. But I haven't seen where federal standardization has helped us any. Just added layers of procedures and paperwork.

Cheers,

Bobby

Fernir
09-05-2011, 10:20 PM
Because people move state to state and take their kids with them There is no better way to stuff up a child's education than to take them from a school in on state that say will start calculus next week to one that started last year . That child is very very likely to fail math and probably loose a college place .A huge hole in an otherwise more productive life.

How many million people move interstate each year ?

A valid argument against the "Let the States decide" mentality of the Libertarians.

Except it doesn't address the problem of "teaching to the standard".

PeterSibley
09-05-2011, 10:21 PM
I'll disagree. Calculus is a full year class in high school, usually senior year. A kid that never gets to calculus in high school can still do just fine in college, despite what many parents think. I know that for a fact, as I never had it in high school. Yet somehow managed to get a B+ in all three quarters of 5 hour calculus in college, the difficult calculus engineers and physics majors had to take. That class weeded out many a wannabe engineer. That, and difficult equations!

My wife changed schools and never learned officially to write in cursive. She managed to get through a Biology Major with a 4.0 average her last two years. Not so stuffed up.

Our system isn't so perfect as to not need work. But I haven't seen where federal standardization has helped us any. Just added layers of procedures and paperwork.

Cheers,

Bobby

The case was mine .I was doing just fine at Math , not brilliant but Bs in Math 1 and Math 2 .Mum and Dad moved , I flunked Math in the new school ,a different Math curriculum .I then didn't have math so no Uni entry .

A standard curriculum is an essential for kids moving interstate .

Waddie
09-06-2011, 12:40 AM
Wqddie, man where have you been. There are accrediting organizations for all the things you mentioned. You are dangerous. Should be a warning label on you.

Accreditation doesn't mean standardization. And there are many different accreditation organizations within any particular field. The federal government isn't the cure-all for every ailment, and hasn't done much to improve K-12 academics. All No Child Left Behind has done is make schools crazy around test time. And create lots more paperwork for school districts.

I'm dangerous? So the second part of your intellectual response is an ad hom attack.......the tactic of the intellectually challenged.

regards,
Waddie

Meli
09-06-2011, 12:57 AM
I would have thought that a standardised curriculum would at least ensure that funding across the states was more or less equal.
States do get some federal funding from Washington don't they?

Core subjects should be standardised. These kids may want to work overseas one day or take part in some global studies at an overseas University in their first year. They will be required to have a certain level in English and other subjects.

Waddie
09-06-2011, 01:38 AM
I would have thought that a standardised curriculum would at least ensure that funding across the states was more or less equal.
States do get some federal funding from Washington don't they?

Core subjects should be standardised. These kids may want to work overseas one day or take part in some global studies at an overseas University in their first year. They will be required to have a certain level in English and other subjects.

Feds pitch in about 7%....Most K-12 is local, usually property tax.
What exactly would "standardized" mean? Same book, same lessons on same day, same tests, same assignments? So will we be going with the books Texas wants or the ones New York wants? If Texas wins out, that would be OK ? Will we all be teaching creationism?

regards,
Waddie

purri
09-06-2011, 01:48 AM
Ways of seeing
Ways of thinking
Ways of knowing
Ways of doing

As the clip stated the sytem is founded on producing "analytical" units of robo. Thinking doesn't enter into it.

R. D. Laing got it in part.

And here I'm waiting for Chase and Flying Orca to chime in.

Meli
09-06-2011, 01:53 AM
(
Feds pitch in about 7%....Most K-12 is local, usually property tax.
What exactly would "standardized" mean? Same book, same lessons on same day, same tests, same assignments? So will we be going with the books Texas wants or the ones New York wants? If Texas wins out, that would be OK ? Will we all be teaching creationism?

regards,
Waddie

In the end it simply means that a nation set a standard of achievement that at the end of high school,( year 12 age 17-18 here )most children should be able to pass.
University's set their own standards.

Meli
09-06-2011, 02:03 AM
Ways of seeing
Ways of thinking
Ways of knowing
Ways of doing

As the clip stated the sytem is founded on producing "analytical" units of robo. Thinking doesn't enter into it.

R. D. Laing got it in part.

And here I'm waiting for Chase and Flying Orca to chime in.

Oi! I only just passed year 12 :D

What I think Purri is saying is that by end of high school, It's not about achievement in individual subjects, It's about having taught kids anaylitical objective... you supply the adjective..
Ways of seeing
Ways of thinking
Ways of knowing
Ways of doing

OK Purri, you can have a freebie:D

purri
09-06-2011, 02:18 AM
Nah,

It's standard first peoples methodology. It encapsulates learning as an holistic ONGOING experience, not just the "discrete" and allegedly unrelated portions.

Kin I uz tha wrd pedagogy now Miss?

Waddie
09-06-2011, 02:18 AM
(

In the end it simply means that a nation set a standard of achievement that at the end of high school,( year 12 age 17-18 here )most children should be able to pass.
University's set their own standards.

An national exit exam?---I assume passing in order to get a diploma? Who gets to set that standard?

regards,
Waddie

Meli
09-06-2011, 02:23 AM
I wuz gunna corect yor speling to discreet, but I googles and you rite.:p

Meli
09-06-2011, 02:29 AM
An national exit exam?---I assume passing in order to get a diploma? Who gets to set that standard?

regards,
Waddie
Well, as a national exit exam implies....
BTW, passing year 12 here gets you no diploma, that's another 2-4 years away but, it is a qualification in a field of specific studies, Diploma of Library/information technology etc.

finishing high school in itself is pretty weak qualification wise.

skuthorp
09-06-2011, 02:32 AM
While I think that a national basic curriculum is a good idea in subjects such as science and math, the official language, and geographical subjects, a rigid national system is the most likely one to be imposed covering the humanities because of political interference for one and the 'winner writes the history' factor. I'd like to think it could be made factual and impartial but it's most unlikely in Aus., let alone the US.
Purri and Meli, as part of a Business qualification designed to produce clones, I did industrial Psychology, a simplified affair from the perspective of the employer really, ignoring the history of industrial unionism in Aus and also designed to produce clones. Laterly the Harvard model, an other clone factory, has produced many who helped cause the ongoing GFC.

purri
09-06-2011, 03:41 AM
^ and I'd imagine that that meme you undertook is based on "Western" methodologies. I posit that the Harvard model is just Taylorism revisited and dressed in a new suit.

Meli
09-06-2011, 03:47 AM
While I think that a national basic curriculum is a good idea in subjects such as science and math, the official language, and geographical subjects, a rigid national system is the most likely one to be imposed covering the humanities because of political interference for one and the 'winner writes the history' factor. I'd like to think it could be made factual and impartial but it's most unlikely in Aus., let alone the US.
Purri and Meli, as part of a Business qualification designed to produce clones, I did industrial Psychology, a simplified affair from the perspective of the employer really, ignoring the history of industrial unionism in Aus and also designed to produce clones. Laterly the Harvard model, an other clone factory, has produced many who helped cause the ongoing GFC.

Thanks, that explains my Ex's animosity to girl child taking a psych Major. (he never did read the fine print :))

skuthorp
09-06-2011, 04:24 AM
Generalising Meli, I reckon women would be better at that job being instinctively more flexible and empathetic. Men are often more judgemental and likely to defend a decided position even if the criteria do not fit. They do not react well to someone who questions the value of their 'professional' qualification.

Meli
09-06-2011, 04:29 AM
Nah, I just mean that some people denigrate psychology as a "soft science" (ex is a physics Major:rolleyes:)

PeterSibley
09-06-2011, 04:29 AM
Thanks, that explains my Ex's animosity to girl child taking a psych Major. (he never did read the fine print :))

I have 3 daughters and 2 granddaughters ...I'd be over the moon if they were brain surgeons ,but psychologist would do nicely .

skuthorp
09-06-2011, 04:32 AM
I think we've hijacked their thread.:d

Meli
09-06-2011, 04:42 AM
I think they've all gone to bed so it doesn't matter:D

WX
09-06-2011, 05:08 AM
I have 3 daughters and 2 granddaughters ...I'd be over the moon if they were brain surgeons ,but psychologist would do nicely .
Oh our darling little baby we wonder what he will be
maybe the prime minister of England or the king of Italy
We waited 40 years or more to see what he would
He now a dustman in in Keswick, oh deary deary me.

skuthorp
09-06-2011, 05:22 AM
My stepdad was named Victor Emanuel in the 1890's after the king of Italy. That didn't work out either.
But who knows what he'll end up as these days, almost no one does the same job all their lives now.
But it seems like a form of deliberate educational dumbing down for the sake of political ideology is in process in the US. Right wing reckons if they don't educate the masses they may be easier to fool?

Meli
09-06-2011, 05:28 AM
I dunno, It's such a big place in both area and population.
Looking at their bureau of statistics, wacco religion doesnt seem to really play a big part.
But just like here, it seems the right wing media are manipulating the sheeple.

When all comes down to it, I'm sure most want the best for their kids.

WX
09-06-2011, 05:29 AM
I watched the report on the Bachmann visit to Iowa and all she said was what she would tear down. It was all designed around 3 second sound bite...full of emotive rhetoric and no substance.

A small question, why do Iowan's think that deep fried butter on a stick is a great idea?

BrianW
09-06-2011, 05:45 AM
Mum and Dad moved , I flunked Math in the new school ,a different Math curriculum .I then didn't have math so no Uni entry .

I'm a bit curious Peter, what kind of University system wouldn't let you attend based on one missing math class? Certainly there were Universities you could go and take math, right?

I guess here's what I'm thinking... In a federalized system, if failing math meant no Uni, then you'd be screwed no matter where you live in Australia. If say the system was local based, not Federalized, and the "no math equals no Uni" were the case in Broome (due to Wild Dingo, I'm sure) but not the case in Melbourne, you could go to Uni in Melbourne.

There's a reason we are called the United States of America. It's because we want to live in places that best meet our ideals. If they want gambling and prostitutes in Nevada, but not in Vermont, so be it. Move to Nevada if that's your gig, or live elsewhere if it absolutely disgusts you. There's 50 states to chose from. ;)

PeterSibley
09-06-2011, 05:53 AM
It would be hard to find a science course that didn't require maths I think ,not matter where you looked .I'm happy for the arts subjects not to be standardised but with say chem ,physics, math and languages, it's hard to see a reason not to .I guess I'm thinking of the kids that get moved all the time, there must be millions of them .

WX
09-06-2011, 06:09 AM
I'm a bit curious Peter, what kind of University system wouldn't let you attend based on one missing math class? Certainly there were Universities you could go and take math, right?

I guess here's what I'm thinking... In a federalized system, if failing math meant no Uni, then you'd be screwed no matter where you live in Australia. If say the system was local based, not Federalized, and the "no math equals no Uni" were the case in Broome (due to Wild Dingo, I'm sure) but not the case in Melbourne, you could go to Uni in Melbourne.

There's a reason we are called the United States of America. It's because we want to live in places that best meet our ideals. If they want gambling and prostitutes in Nevada, but not in Vermont, so be it. Move to Nevada if that's your gig, or live elsewhere if it absolutely disgusts you. There's 50 states to chose from. ;)
I guess it would depend on whether you wanted a degree that actually was worth something in a place of importance. If you just want a degree then buy one off the internet but one that carries some weight in a place of employment then you pass whatever subjects you have to to get into a university like Monash in Melbourne...like my daughter did.
We only have a few states but you live anywhere you like in them, though some spots might be a bit upmarket. It depends on your credit rating.

BrianW
09-06-2011, 06:16 AM
I guess it would depend on whether you wanted a degree that actually was worth something in a place of importance.

But what is holding a recent High School graduate (bloke?) back from going to a Uni and taking math again? There are lots of colleges in the US which will gladly take your money, and teach you high school math. :)

We're not talking about a lifetime disqualification here, are we?

BrianW
09-06-2011, 06:20 AM
I guess I'm thinking of the kids that get moved all the time, there must be millions of them .

Your heart is in the right place.

I don't believe many US employers care much about where their employees attended high school. They care about college degrees and professional licenses. At least in the US, a student can fail a math class, still attend Uni, and eventually get any degree they want. It might require a bit more work.

Meli
09-06-2011, 06:23 AM
Yeah, Our system is different. You cannot get into Uni on a sports scholarship. You have to pass your VCE or equivelent in another state.
You Must pass either English, English literature or English as a second language to get into any degree course.(except studio arts and a few others where you are auditioned on merit)

If you want to do a science like Chem, or physics or Biol you must have passed a science subject and either maths Methods, advanced Maths sometimes just further maths as well as an English subject.

Then you may apply for any University in the world. My Daughter will be applying for a Global studies course with a major an arts/psych/languages/ journalism at Monash. she will have to study 6-18 months in a recognised overseas University.

She's scared :D

Tylerdurden
09-06-2011, 06:37 AM
Sorry, Forget Bachmann as she is a progressive distraction. Just ask how before the NEA students across the country had a far batter grasp of the basics and classical education then after. All the NEA and the Department of education serve is the ability to raise students prepared to accept state propaganda without critical thought.

BrianW
09-06-2011, 06:55 AM
Yeah, Our system is different. You cannot get into Uni on a sports scholarship.

I never mentioned sports scholarships. Just that a person can always get secondary education after high school, to meet any Uni requirements.

The idea of going to any Uni in the world, once accepted, is awesome. However, the rest of your post suggests an inflexible, nationwide system, in which some may be lost before even starting. Surely that's not the case, right?

PeterSibley
09-06-2011, 07:10 AM
Brian ,I did go back to night school while working and get an entry qualification for Uni but life intervened . My point was that the situation would never have arisen in a standardised maths curriculum .

WX
09-06-2011, 07:11 AM
But what is holding a recent High School graduate (bloke?) back from going to a Uni and taking math again? There are lots of colleges in the US which will gladly take your money, and teach you high school math. :)

We're not talking about a lifetime disqualification here, are we?
My daughter went to a Steiner school most of her life but switched to a state high school and only stayed around 2-3 months. She took the rest of the year off and home schooled herself with her mothers help. She then went to a Technical college and did year ten, the following year she did years 11-12 in one year and then her Tertiary Preparation Certificate, she needed that to get into Uni. She moved to Melbourne and went to Monash where she did a Maths and Science Arts degree, she passed both with honours.
If you want to go to Uni and need a few extra subjects to get in you can do them in a Technical College. If you are on a low income or unemployed the government will under certain conditions pay for your courses.
It all boils down to how much you want something. The assistance is there.

RonW
09-06-2011, 07:13 AM
What is the budget of the national education bureaucracy in billions ?
And what have or do they actually accomplish ?

tyler -
Sorry, Forget Bachmann as she is a progressive distraction
yep as fake as a 3 dollar bill, trying to ride off of ron paul's coat tails..

PeterSibley
09-06-2011, 07:17 AM
What it buys is a ranking here .http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2010/dec/07/world-education-rankings-maths-science-reading

Nicholas Scheuer
09-06-2011, 07:18 AM
"Ignorance" is Bachmann's stock in trade.

Moby Nick

Meli
09-06-2011, 07:19 AM
No
Put simply
Our kids go to high school years 7-10
Years 11-12 they choose a combination of high school/trade school in varying intensity until year 12.(some but not many, drop out of school here. usually their choice.
some may choose to concentrate on trade school but continue some core subjects in high school.
Some stay in high school choosing all their own subjects except English or english lit.
There's a wide range from several languages, geog, hist, 3 maths streams, physics etc media, drama chem biol ....asian history, american history european hist the list goes on.

They then sit examinations or leave with a High school pass
Those that get a pass in high school and sit and pass their exams get to apply for a university place.
This exam/high school score is recognised at all universitys world wide to study for a degree if they have passes in the prerequisite subjects.
I think the European/UK system is similar.
You can also study the international baccalaureate from year 10 particularly suited to students with parents that move around.
Once you have been accepted into a degree course, you may change streams as long as you can prove your capibility.

Bit simplistic an explaination but thats the basics

John Smith
09-06-2011, 07:24 AM
Education is primarily driven locally. What I see from state and federal involvement is bureaucracy. The Savannah/Chatham County School Board once spent 275K to get a 300K federal grant. Is that really a good use of anyone's money?

My two cents. On this I might agree with her. Precious little else so far.

Cheers,

Bobby

This has been a delicate issue for years. I think we need to understand the goal, even if we understand our failure to achieve it.

If your kid applies to a college, the goal is that going to one high school, rather than another high school, ought not be a factor in his acceptance.

A youngster who does very well and graduates with straight A's ought not have his future be less because of the school system. I don't know if we can ever achieve that, but it sure seems worth trying.

Having been an active parent, I have been continually disappointed that the opinions never saught are those of the children. The truth is, everyone involved in education is supposedly working for the children. By the time they reach the 6th grade, they may well have some good ideas on how to improve things.

There are a great many factors involved in educating kids from one area to another, and it may not be possible to make it all that equal from one place to another, but if no one is trying to do so, it will get more unequal.

As I posted before, I had friends who stayed in school because my town's schools had great wood, metal, and auto shops. Budget cuts eliminated those, and there are more drop outs now. We could find money for virtually any sport you can name, but not for the shops which were the primary interest of a good chunk of the student population.

Meli
09-06-2011, 07:31 AM
Re Fee's
I've just gone back to Uni age 50 :D
I'm doing a Diploma, part time on line, fully supported by the tutors at the University and can drop in to lectures as I choose.
Costs me $132.00 each half year for the first 2 years then about $3000 PA for last 2 years. Our diploma's are one step down from a full degree. The government pays the rest.
I can apply for an interest free loan from the gov to pay the $6000, and only ever have to pay it back if my income exceeds a set amount.

John Smith
09-06-2011, 07:46 AM
I loved the video above. In the middle of all that the point that school is boring probably said it all. It need not be, but the entire system needs to be re-designed. When I was in 5th grade my teacher brought in his 10 speed bike. We all had bikes, but none like his. For a couple of weeks that bike was the center of our learning. While we were learning about the bike, we were also learning a lot of math (gear ratios and such) and a lot of English (adjectives and such). The bike had our attention and we were not bored.

I've talked to my local school principal and suggested they have a year long running program on the role of education on the cell phone. Pretty much every kid in school has one and uses it constantly. The history of how it came to be, the different technologies that have been merged into it, would likely hold their attention.

I took many field trips with my kid's and their classes. My group got stuck in an elevator at the Museum of Natural History, so we missed most of that trip. What is an interesting thing for this thread is the trip to Washington's headquarers in NJ. I happened to sit next to the teacher on the bus coming home and we talked about what sort of things to test them on. My suggestion was they write a bit on what they think life today might be like with Washington and his men had not survived that brutal winter.

She had no idea how she would grade that. My suggestion was she didn't need to grade that answer: she had all the other questions to grade the answers to. I thought it important that they put a little thought into how what happened back them might relate more directly to them.

wardd
09-06-2011, 10:11 AM
"Ignorance" is Bachmann's stock in trade.

Moby Nick

she doesn't want the voters to be smarter than she is

David W Pratt
09-06-2011, 11:32 AM
IIRC, the Dept of Ed has been enthusiastically derided during the present Administration and the preceeding one.

purri
09-06-2011, 07:05 PM
Sorry, Forget Bachmann as she is a progressive distraction. Just ask how before the NEA students across the country had a far batter grasp of the basics and classical education then after. All the NEA and the Department of education serve is the ability to raise students prepared to accept state propaganda without critical thought.
and there's the rub..."non-critical thought". An oxymoron of the highest order.