Anxiety, Depression, & the power of postive thinking

[Katherine]

Hello All,

A few months back I was formally diagnosed with Anxiety & Depression disorders. Unfortunately it was not before it had caused huge problems at work and practically turned me into a hermit in our home life. I'm currently working with a psychiatrist and psychotherapist to control the symptoms and and re balance all the brain chemicals. However, I may have dug a hole so deep at work that I'll never get out of it. My therapist currently has me reading the Power of Positive Thinking. Has anyone read it and practiced it?

[Phillip Allen]

I may have a copy on the shelf... haven't read it though (does that count?)

[Paul Pless]

(does that count?)no..

[elf]

Separating the chemical from the psycological is surely very complicated. I'm personally certain that learning to measure reality is central to spiritual health. If learning to think positively can bring that about for you, it's got to be worth the effort.

[Chris Coose]

A recent long term clinical study found that SSRI's worked about as good as individual psychotherapy but together, they found significant progress can be made.

A woman at a meeting this morning advocated reading everything in the self help section you can get your hands on till the bell rings. I'm a big fan of that suggestion.

[Hwyl]

I liked "Learn to be an Optimist" by Lucy Macdonald, the cover makes it look like a child's book. Maybe that's why it worked for me.

It's on it's way to you.

[Peter Malcolm Jardine]

Hello All,

A few months back I was formally diagnosed with Anxiety & Depression disorders. Unfortunately it was not before it had caused huge problems at work and practically turned me into a hermit in our home life. I'm currently working with a psychiatrist and psychotherapist to control the symptoms and and re balance all the brain chemicals. However, I may have dug a hole so deep at work that I'll never get out of it. My therapist currently has me reading the Power of Positive Thinking. Has anyone read it and practiced it?


Katherine, that's a big announcement. Some of us here understand these issues... I certainly do. The first thing I would say is that despite where you feel you are, or where you got to, there are always alternatives. It's hard to see those alternatives when you in the dumpster, but they are always there. An SSRI in moderate doses usually has a big effect on how you feel over all.... the 'color of your thinking'. In combination with that, cognitive behaviour training helps reinforce the change in thinking. It doesn't happen overnight, but it does happen.

One of the first realizations that takes place in recovery is the realization of how far down you may have been, and what damage may have been done to your personal and professional life. Frankly, the professional life stuff isn't all that important in the grand scheme of things. You need to go in to your boss and explain everything that has happened. This is a medical issue. Making your employer understand where you are now, and what you're doing to change this situation is important, but it's a medical issue. The personal side of your life is the important part, because you have to live with yourself, and for someone with depression and anxiety issues, that has already been hard.... and hard for your partner. It takes time, but there are bumps in the road. Stick with it.

I think you and Paul know how I feel about you guys, and if you need someone to talk to, give me a call. I can be a pretty good sounding board. PM me if you need to. First and foremost, the recognition and action you've taken is really brave, and a fantastic first step. xxx

[LeeG]

Wishing you unexpected perspective Katherine, the hole may have hand and footholds you don't see right now.

[P.I. Stazzer-Newt]

..... Has anyone read it and practiced it?
No.

But I've known a fair number of people afflicted by anxiety and depression, one of whom said:


The single best piece of advice I've ever had, was from the midwife who said
"Keep breathing".

All the best stuff is simple.

[David G]

Katherine - I haven't read the book, but wanted to say I appreciate your candor. I won't bore you with the details - just say I can relate and sympathize. It ain't easy when your head is messing with your head. You know, though, that you have a lot of support here. You've been added to the prayers list.

[C. Ross]

So sorry Katherine. Feeling Good, by David Burns MD, or other books based on Cognitive Behavioral Therapy.I can vouch for that approach personally. When I used to work in behavioral health, and now serving as a board member of a mental health organization, I can say that the evidence is that CBT and a somewhat similar approach called dialectical behavioral therapy have results that are statistically superior to other approaches. That ought to appeal to the engineer in you!Good luck Katherine, you can get out.

[Arizona Bay]

Haven't read that book, his writing doesn't 'click' with me. I agree with checking through every type of self help book you can come across though, one will speak your language.

Many of us have gone through that 'learning experience', there is light ahead!

Most important tool (IMHO) : Breathe... breathe intentionally, it brings you back into the present and stops the thought circles for a moment. And the moments get longer through practice.

All the best!

Here is one book that speaks to me...

http://books.google.com/books?id=hvswQuI59IoC&printsec=frontcover&dq=four+agreements+ruiz&hl=en&ei=LrY-TtHkOs3ZiALZnvTGDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CEMQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q&f=false

[Flying Orca]

I've been through both anxiety (panic attacks) and depression, though I never sought clinical help for the latter. I got past the depression by deciding that happiness was a choice, and making it. Sounds simplistic, but I suspect that's along the lines of the book you talk about.

One minor change to my interior dialogue really helped: I consciously and ruthlessly put an end to any thoughts that began with "You..." and reframed them to begin with "I...". Owning one's self-criticism is a big step toward acting upon it.

Beyond that I can only echo what others have said: we're all here for you. Good luck and keep working at it!

[Tylerdurden]

I follow the get off you butt or die philosophy. I understand some portion of the population can benefit from pharmaceuticals but that is a small number probably along the lines of addicts who cannot help themselves. I think most depression comes from the wrong direction in life and change is the cure most often. No one seems to wonder how man got a few hundred thousand years without anything past natural cures and this medication points to a sick society and we should look there with a critical eye.

[skipper68]

Boy can I relate to you! The problem with depression, is it's a subtle decline in your thinking possess. The world slowly go's to gray. I'm glad you recognized that it was a problem. I had irreparable destruction to my first marriage from it. It took 50 years for the DR. to diagnoses epilepsy, with PTSD. Oh ya-the PTSD triggers the epilepsy:( OTOH, small doses of light scripts keeps it at bay.(It was a switch and learn possess. Abilify made me into a 24 hr. rage) You should also know, all my daughters(and mother) also have Anxiety attacks, and my Dr. said it's a form of epilepsy also, most likely.The right script made the world full of color, like in the wizard of OZ opening the door. All the time my beige cloths were fine, then red and hot pink entered into my wardrobe:d. OTOH, I have my husband on a script(as needed) to deal with ME when I have an episode.Your boss will understand.(If needed, bring a note from your MD. Apologize to those you might have offended, and move on. Look toward the future, thru rose colored glasses when possible. Best of wishes to you, sincerely.

[nw_noob]

I haven't read the book, but am quite familiar with the concept. There's truth to it. However I'm inclined to be a negative thinking person, and I don't think that one's natural inclination for optimism or pessimism is something that most people can change. Some do flip a 180 in that regard, but they seem kind of weird to me, with their pasted-on smiles; as if they're acting like someone else rather than being themselves. I've accepted that I'm not going to magically see the sunny side in everything. Instead, I settle for having learned to quickly spot un-warranted negative thoughts as they arise, and trying to dispatch them as quickly as possible. It's not easy, but I find it preferable to acting like an unauthentic positive version of myself.

[Peter Malcolm Jardine]

I follow the get off you butt or die philosophy. I understand some portion of the population can benefit from pharmaceuticals but that is a small number probably along the lines of addicts who cannot help themselves. I think most depression comes from the wrong direction in life and change is the cure most often. No one seems to wonder how man got a few hundred thousand years without anything past natural cures and this medication points to a sick society and we should look there with a critical eye.


Without launching into a significant explanation of anti depressant medication and the research behind it, suffice it to say you are completely wrong, and obviously you know nothing about mental illness.

[Tylerdurden]

Without launching into a significant explanation of anti depressant medication and the research behind it, suffice it to say you are completely wrong, and obviously you know nothing about mental illness.

Never had it and none in my family have going back generations so you may be right. Still extremely concerned at the level people are medicated for it. Is everyone going nuts or is it just the way we approach life? Some greater questions there rather than just accepting the popular norm.

[Dutch]

Katherine-

a long time ago I had some very severe anxiety issues - I went to a counselor and they helped me throuugh it with the help of this book - I highly recommend it. At least read the premise of it and the reviews it got from sufferers who rated it on amazon- I think it would help.

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51pWt8WWqTL._AA300_.jpg

[Tylerdurden]

If you acknowledge that you have no personal experience with it, then on what possible basis are you concerned?

I pointed out my concerns right in the quote. Whats your major malfunction?

[Phillip Allen]

:) .

[Henning 4148]

Don't worry to much about the implications to your job. Quite the opposite - the job might be one of the things creating your problems. Big corporations and especially big corporations dominated by a foreign culture can create a very high level of tension and stress. The more so when there is a lot of competition for few jobs.

Every crisis also is a chance - do reconsider your goals in life. Chances are you have neglected "private" goals for "job related" goals.

All the best!

[rbgarr]

Good luck, Katherine! Bravo for recognizing the effect your mental state has on your work and taking steps to get help. So much better than losing the structure and connections that work gives you. You' re definitely not alone at work. There are others who suffer as well, but it's hard to acknowledge it in a business environment. Group therapy can be helpful also, especially to meet others who can hep you check your judgment about things. A hard thing is accounting for your altered judgment and not taking the negative judgments and 'self-talk' boiling in your head as fact and spiraling into 'downward doom loop'.

I second the Feel Good book and workbooks as helpful for cognitive therapy. Exercise REALLY leverages better daily feelings along with the right medications, which sometimes takes a while to find the right combo or dosages for.

We're thinking good thoughts for you.

[bobbys]

My wife suffers from Anxiety & Depression which turned out to be the womanly vapors at this time of life, She is struggling to balance her body with different vapor cures, i shall have her write you if you want

[Ted Hoppe]

Good for you Katherine for seeing your mental state and working to change the way you think. I believe that this methodology with making healthy choices that include a very balanced of good fresh diet (no wheat, flour, sugars as well as very limited coffee and alcohol), lots of exercise with under direct sunlight can turn you around. I am also a believer in having a "vision board" which helps focus on many obtainable aspirations and directed emotions (I take time to focus on mine for 3 to 5 minutes, 3 X a day) - As kookie as it sounds, your dreams are real and how you work towards them are important for clarity of mind and energizes one for the needed better body state. I am amazed how it helps me be happier and productive besides delivering many of my wants into reality.

[ishmael]

This thread is a keeper. Thanks Kat.

It can be difficult to self-diagnose and decide when the regular stresses of life we all are heir to crosses a line into more pernicious problems. With all the talk about psychology running the airwaves these days, I think a lot of people still attach a stigma to these issues. Most of us need some help from time to time, whether it's the formal help of a professional, or the informal help of some wise friends.

Keep after it girl, and thank you for your candor. I'll look for the book.

Jack

[Flying Orca]

Also worth bearing in mind (perhaps on the job front?) is this gem from William Gibson:

“Before you diagnose yourself with depression or low self-esteem, first make sure that you are not, in fact, surrounded by a$$holes." :)

[McMike]

Hello All,

A few months back I was formally diagnosed with Anxiety & Depression disorders. Unfortunately it was not before it had caused huge problems at work and practically turned me into a hermit in our home life. I'm currently working with a psychiatrist and psychotherapist to control the symptoms and and re balance all the brain chemicals. However, I may have dug a hole so deep at work that I'll never get out of it. My therapist currently has me reading the Power of Positive Thinking. Has anyone read it and practiced it?

I read it or something like it years ago . . . easy in theory but not easy in practice. There are absolutely elements of truth to retaining your thought process and it is a positive exercise but when life keeps kicking you in the balls positive thinking is a difficult thing to embrace entirely. I think, there is an answer but I fear that our lives and culture leave little room for exploring it. The movie "Eat,Pray,Love" is probably the best example of how best to treat the disorder, watch and you'll see what I'm talking about . . . I hope:o.

Katherine, it takes a lot of guts to admit your disorder, you are not alone in it.:)

[McMike]

Katherine - I haven't read the book, but wanted to say I appreciate your candor. I won't bore you with the details - just say I can relate and sympathize. It ain't easy when your head is messing with your head. You know, though, that you have a lot of support here. You've been added to the prayers list.

Dito

[Concordia...41]

At the very least, it gives you something to do while trying to face the implications of the facts, that much of life bites, and then it ends.

So if a person wasn't depressed at the start of this thread, they should be getting closer. :rolleyes:

[Rich VanValkenburg]

What's important is that you realize that you are NOT the only one paddling this boat. Try going without a real paycheck for almost 5 years and you tend to see things differently, or probably not to see things as you used to. The important thing in these times is to be glad that you have a job, that you know what you're doing and let that guide you. My mistake was allowing people at my old job take advantage of me. They removed my self-confidence, and I'm still dealing with that.

[katey]

Don't feel like any one instance of any of the three approaches (medication, therapy, or self-help) HAS to work for you. The reason there is such variation in therapists, medicines, and books is that different things work for different people. If something seems pointless to you, it probably is, and you can feel free to drop it. (On the other hand, if something seems to be pissing you off, pay attention... it may be important to figure out why you feel that way.)

I've had years and years of experience with this. I'm currently off all meds, but I won't hesitate to go back on them if I need to. It's just the way I am. PM me if you want.

[Canoeyawl]

I have read the book and there are some gems in there. I liked it.

[ishmael]

As the topic of Freud has been broached I'll relate a few Jungian anecdotes.

While serious depression may need medical intervention, there is another side to what I'll call sub-clinical issues.

Our culture with its deadlines, and tasks, and fervor for achievment, doesn't honor much the subtle side of our nature. A depression may well be a call to do something other than what you are doing. Far from being a "disorder" it can be asking you to slow down for a few hours or days and have a look see.

Most of us identify, take our sense of selfworth, from our work. If that is going OK, we're OK. There's nothing wrong with that, and it can be very fine, but sometimes it comes up against something larger. When you fight with that other it's productive of depression. This other wants attention, and depression is one way it gets it.

Katherine, I don't really know what you do, but from what you've said you do design work for widgets on automobiles. What, in your wildest dreams, would you rather do? What is your imagination telling you? It doesn't mean cashing it in, but follow those imaginations. You're very lucky in Paul, because I think he will support whatever you decide.

[skuthorp]

I have no claims of expertise here, but like bobby's wife, mine had depression and panic problems connected to menopause and it took a few years to iron the problems out. You have been very brave indeed posting here, that is a step along the way of itself. You have our thoughts and good wishes every step of the road.
Anne says that Yoga breathing exercises focussed her mind and helped when a panic set in.

[Gerarddm]

Anti-depressant drugs can be very habit forming, and almost impossible to get weaned off. I know one friend who wants to get off her meds and simply can't. Every time she trys to reduce her body reacts violently.

For short term relief I suppose you gotta do what you gotta do, but otherwise I vote for breathing excercises,
bio-feedback, therapy, and naturopathic remedies. That and try to avoid depressing news/situations as you can and expsose yourself to more positive things i.e. the power of positive thinking.

Desiderata.

[Dutch]

I will add this - dont forget to exercise- work up a good sweat for 20- 30 minutes a day and if there is any way you can do so when you are experiencing an anxiety attack do so then- use exercise as your calming influence - your body will release a lot of feel good chemicals all by itself in response to exercise and youll feel better about yourself once the attack has passed.

[norseman]

Talking about it with a therapist sounds like a good plan. Regarding SSRI's;


Most of the evidence supporting the use of medications and psychological therapies for PTSD has been assembled by pharmaceutical companies that make the drugs or by researchers with conflicts of interest in the outcome of the studies, and lack independent and rigorous proof, the report said.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/10/18/AR2007101802186.html

[Katherine]

I find that my anxiety increases on Sunday evenings because work is such a huge stressor for me. I'm not looking forward to going in tomorrow. I had a medication interaction issue at work Friday that, while not dangerous to anyone, was very strange, scary, and embarrassing. Tomorrow I get to explain what happened with my Doctor's letter to the HR person. Should be loads of fun. Of course I want be a raving lunatic (sarcasm here). Oh well, I will get through it.

[Tylerdurden]

Also worth bearing in mind (perhaps on the job front?) is this gem from William Gibson:

“Before you diagnose yourself with depression or low self-esteem, first make sure that you are not, in fact, surrounded by a$$holes." :)

That's why I am never depressed. I just come here and I feel better.:D

[seanz]

I will add this - dont forget to exercise- work up a good sweat for 20- 30 minutes a day and if there is any way you can do so when you are experiencing an anxiety attack do so then- use exercise as your calming influence - your body will release a lot of feel good chemicals all by itself in response to exercise and youll feel better about yourself once the attack has passed.

I'll agree with Dutch, especially as he's repeating the advice that I gave him a while back on how to combat depression......and it seems to have worked.



I've seen people work through this stuff and come out the other side. Just keep going.


Also, you may be short of 'glitter'......do you want me to send you some? I know there's some around here somewhere.......:)

[Tumzara]

What I have found.
1. Awake in the middle of the night is worst time. Find a way to switch off the brain or it will drive you crazy. I find breathing focus exercise the best way to shut off mind and get back to sleep. It does take practice and focus.
2. Exercise is the best medicine. Bar none. If you can run, run. If you can't, ride a bike. The harder your workout the better you will feel. you need to be out of breath. The hardest part of this will be the front door to the street. Get out there.
3. That book will help, as will many others.
4. As crappy as you feel it will pass.
Most important understand and work on 1. but if nothing else, act on 2. those two afflictions can't catch you if you keep moving fast but their grip is strong if they do.

[skipper68]

Just to be clear, PTSD is real.
It took 50 years for the DR. to diagnoses epilepsy, with PTSD. Oh ya-the PTSD triggers the epilepsy:(
Most of the evidence supporting the use of medications and psychological therapies for PTSD has been assembled by pharmaceutical companies that make the drugs or by researchers with conflicts of interest in the outcome of the studies, and lack independent and rigorous proof, the report said Not sure what medications they are talking about, but my scripts are so minimal, I made my MD. drop my dosages. Having hullucinations of smelling smoke, and owning 8 smoke detectors was just one symptom. The depression was a chemical imbalance, which I chose to take the least script possible. If anxiety hits hits hard, I put a 1 mg vailum under my tongue and it works fast. No one wants these problems, butrecognizing them is the first step in controling them. My therapist was the angle that broke "the code".

[Peter Malcolm Jardine]

Anti-depressant drugs can be very habit forming, and almost impossible to get weaned off. I know one friend who wants to get off her meds and simply can't. Every time she trys to reduce her body reacts violently.

For short term relief I suppose you gotta do what you gotta do, but otherwise I vote for breathing excercises,
bio-feedback, therapy, and naturopathic remedies. That and try to avoid depressing news/situations as you can and expsose yourself to more positive things i.e. the power of positive thinking.

Desiderata.



Frankly, this is very dangerous advice, and it's wrong. Antidepressants have side effects during the 'weaning off' period that should be paid attention to. Most SSRI's such as Wellbutrin, Paxil, Luvox, and others have some serious side effects if you decrease your dosage too quickly. Most antidepressants should be dosed down under the supervision of a doctor, and with a clear understanding of a way forward. Generally speaking, SSRI's are not addictive in the way other drugs form addictions. They simply have physical side effects.

Clinical depressions do have external stimuli, such as work stress, or relationship stress. They also have clear and defined pathologies that have little to do with life. Chemical imbalance in the brain is a complicated science, and is still in the infancy stage, but modern drugs applied by a medical professional who has spent time researching and administering are powerful methods of lessening the effect of obsessive compulsive disorders, depression and anxiety. Many people have benefited from their use. There are risks associated with their use, just as there are incompetent professionals doleing them out, but to compare modern antidepressants with breathing exercises and naturopathic solutions is simply quackery. I hope people here refrain from giving advice on matters they are quite obviously not qualified to speak on.

[Peter Malcolm Jardine]

Just to be clear, PTSD is real. Not sure what medications they are talking about, but my scripts are so minimal, I made my MD. drop my dosages. Having hullucinations of smelling smoke, and owning 8 smoke detectors was just one symptom. The depression was a chemical imbalance, which I chose to take the least script possible. If anxiety hits hits hard, I put a 1 mg vailum under my tongue and it works fast. No one wants these problems, butrecognizing them is the first step in controling them. My therapist was the angle that broke "the code".


Skipper, just as a matter of interest, do you drink on a regular basis?

[Peter Malcolm Jardine]

That's why I am never depressed. I just come here and I feel better.:D

So far, it would seem your desire to feel better is fueled by participating in a mean and ignorant way.

[Nanoose]

So sorry, Katherine. As others, I can relate and am here should you ever want someone to talk to. Mine is genetic; meds, discovered very late, have literally saved my life.

I haven't read the book, but do recommend CBT mentioned above.

As work is a major stressor/contributor, I assume you are talking to your health care providers and Paul about possibly moving to a different job?

Blessings on you....

[Hughman]

Katherine: ((((((hugs))))))

[ishmael]

I guess you can tell, Kat, that you aren't alone and folks here are pulling for ya.

[Waddie]

Fire up a joint when needed. Probably not a good idea at work. But smoking a little pot out on the back deck has kept me on the straight and level for many years.........That's how I got through my wife's menopause problems, and any time one of the kids did something really stupid that pissed me off. It will bring back your sense of humor, too.....:)

You will be able to tolerate the crap at work if you have something to look forward to.

It may be habit forming in a good way, but it's not addictive and you won't have any withdrawal symptoms.

regards,
Waddie

[Peter Malcolm Jardine]

Wow, the advice on this thread has gone from wrong to absurd in just a few posts.

[pcford]

Wow, the advice on this thread has gone from wrong to absurd in just a few posts.

Well, I will say this, I have not seen a thread that has not been worsened and cheapened by the participation of Tylerdurden.

Best wishes to you...Katherine...my advice to follow by PM.

[hokiefan]

Fire up a joint when needed. Probably not a good idea at work. But smoking a little pot out on the back deck has kept me on the straight and level for many years.........That's how I got through my wife's menopause problems, and any time one of the kids did something really stupid that pissed me off. It will bring back your sense of humor, too.....:)

You will be able to tolerate the crap at work if you have something to look forward to.

It may be habit forming in a good way, but it's not addictive and you won't have any withdrawal symptoms.

regards,
Waddie

Given Katherine's line of work, that is decidely bad advice. Almost every engineering/industrial job comes with testing.

Katherine, you are brave to put this out here. My sincere admiration to you, for looking for help and being honest with the world about it. I've had a bought of depression, for me it was after my father died. It is an insiduous, creaping thing that takes the color from your world. Recognizing it was life changing for me. I wish the same for you.

As far as work goes, close the door and have a heart to heart with your boss. It may not save things, gawd I've been there, it may only tell you know where you stand. But use that information and do what you have to do. Whether that means putting things back together there, or starting the process of a job search. The latter isn't a lot of fun, but sometimes a fresh start is the thing. I'm loving my fresh start at the moment.

Here's hoping however things work out, its good for you and Paul.

Cheers,

Bobby

[ishmael]

Peter,

I assume you aren't talking about all the advice.

I hope Kat shows this thread to her therapist.

[hokiefan]

Peter,

I assume you aren't talking about all the advice.

I hope Kat shows this thread to her therapist.

There's been some good stuff here. Just not all of it.

Cheers,

Bobby

[B_B]

While some have noted that work can be a great stressor, un/underemployment can be one too (don't ask me how I know). If at all possible try to work with your boss and HR to ease things at work, maybe take stress leave, if possible, or use your vacation days, if you have any, or if possible take an unpaid leave of absence. But actually keeping the/a job may be more important in the long run than alleviating the stress related to it in the short. It's not only about finances but a sense of fulfilling some kind of societal rite, for some it's a sense of worth.

I've not read the book but was introduced to positive thought type therapy and just sat there the whole time (whenever I tried it) feeling like Stuart Smalley....not very productive.

If the therapist you have isn't working for you find another one - they're not all as capable, nor suited to your personality. Look for one who works for you. That being said, you'll get out of therapy what you put into it. I wasted a year in group therapy (what we could afford at the time) .... the only way it made me feel better was knowing that there were a hell of a lot more effed people than I. I didn't trust them, didn't like them, didn't respect them so put nothing into it. I should have. They could have helped..

I tried several meds, several dose levels each, all seemed to make me numb/foggy in my head all the time - true I wasn't feeling as angry or despondent but I never felt happy or glad either. I choose to deal with the negative feelings for the, fleeting and occasional as they may be, feelings of genuine joy and happiness - they give me hope.

I'll concur with diet and exercise recommendations - exercise outside as much as possible, in the sun as much as possible.

Norman says he watches movies that make him cry, I seek out movies that make me laugh - laughter really does release good stuff into your system. Sometimes I try to just make myself laugh. It's strange, but is seems to have a positive effect.

I don't know what your house looks like now, but renovations and clutter at home drive me absolutely nuts. I hate it. If I had a choice we'd be minimalists (except for my stuff, it's good stuff; the wife's stuff, and the kids stuff, on the other hand is really getting out of hand... ;) ). Possibly getting your house in living condition and putting major projects at home on the back burner for a while might not be a bad idea. Work on saving yourself, and your career, first. The house will always be there (or you can move, I keep telling my wife we should just move and get a new/different house ;) ).

It helped for me to understand that I'll always be dealing with it. So I no longer long for being rid of it. Strangely, when I made this choice, I seemed to experience it less often.

All the best to you, and all the other WBF sufferer's. We're a nutty lot here. :)

[Chip-skiff]

Brave to float a thread on your troubles, and I feel for you.

I went through times of intense excitement and energy, alternating with deep blues and little inclination to do anything— a frequent affliction of writers, I'm told.

Not sure to what extent my mood swings were genetic or chemical, but my remedies have been pretty mundane:

Never let the daily chores go undone, whether washing dishes, watering the garden, cooking, whatever. To accomplish even small tasks always makes me feel better.

Take one thing at a time. Think about what you're doing, rather than worrying about all else. And take a moment to appreciate getting that one thing accomplished.

Harder to do in the modern workplace, what with all the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune.

In any event, good luck and steady on!

[L.W. Baxter]

Hang in there, Katherine (and Paul!)

I don't have experience with serious depression, but whenever I am feeling down or stressed I find an animal to pet. In a platonic way, I mean, of course.

[htom]

Been in that neighborhood, although not that precise diagnosis. Talking about it with friends can be good for you; you're going to have to take what we say with a large block of salty caution.

Take the pills as directed. One of the dangers of modern psychoactive drugs is that they work; someone who's depressed starts on meds, gets enough better to effectively carry out suicidal intentions before they get enough better to not want to!

Mostly I've battled depression, and epilepsy; the former was actually a co-morbid problem caused by mis-diagnosed ADHD.

If you ever want to write or talk, drop me a PM.

I don't remember reading Power of Positive Thinking. I may have; I've read lots of books about thinking and feeling. The ones I recommend are (in no particular order)

Carl Rogers, On becoming a person, a book about the therapeutic process from the viewpoint of the therapist (I mostly recommend it as a a management theory book, because I think the key to management is motivating employees to do their best work);

Albert Ellis, A guide to rational living, and several others about Rational Emotional Behavior Therapy

Eric Berne, Games people play, the founding book of Transactional Analysis, now dated in several ways;

Muriel James and Dorothy Jongeward, Born to Win: Transactional Analysis with Gestalt Experiments A self-help TA manual. May be the most useful in this list, but it's also the most dangerous. Playing with your own mind is not the wisest thing one can do, especially without supervision.

[B_B]

Separating 'feelings' and 'thought' and 'knowledge' is important. Understanding 'feelings' 'thought' and 'knowledge' is doubly so.

[htom]

Yes, exercise is very good for you, body and mind.

[Lew Barrett]

Amazing, honest and sharing statement, Katherine. I suffered from anxiety (and to a lesser extent it's companion and nasty brother, depression) that was largely work related, but I've been edgy all my life. Forced retirement has gone a considerable distance to help me. I have not read the book. I won't insult you by telling you it was a fun process, but there was a lot to be learned by identifying and dealing with it. I'm a better person than I was when I started, and a lot more empathetic. so, a plus then from it.

Working through the meds (in my case it was a process to find what worked for me) and a year spent with a sympathetic doc has taught me that I can manage my fears. I would say there is a lot of truth in Braam's statement as it bore on my feelings at the time. (avoid the assholes). I haven't felt the need for meds (or therapy) for some years now, but I think there are a lot of people who can benefit from both modern chemistry and discussion with a sympathetic, trained ear. A sober person like yourself has great hope for relief.

You have a great sense of humor mixed in with your introspective nature. We've all seen it (your humor) here. I predict that having identified the problem, you are gong to identify the solution. Stay close with and to people who love you, and work the problem. You can come out the other end better for the process, and you have plenty of company.

Some very good advice here, pick what fits and dump the stuff that's off base. A thinking person is going to suffer some in this world.

[pcford]

Amazing, honest and sharing statement, Katherine. <snips>
Some very good advice here, pick what fits and dump the stuff that's off base. A thinking person is going to suffer some in this world.

nicely said, skipper.

[johnw]

I've watched my business partner and my best friend's ex-wife go through this, and I'd say the talk therapy is really important. One of the traps is that you start feeling terrible, and start looking for the reason, and blaming the people around you. You need to learn to recognize when you're having a bad head, and recognize that it's not anyone's fault, just chemistry. Once you get to where you can do this, work should be a lot less stressful. One person I know is constantly asking if she handled situations right, because she can't tell. She was raised by alcoholics, and in addition to a lot of bad scripts she learned, her reality testing got messed up by their denial.

I'd recommend avoiding CNS depressants like alcohol and pot. They're likely to do more harm than good. Exercise, and doing things you are good at and like doing, are good.

As a bookseller, I've seen what people seem to find helpful, and Feeling Good, by Burns, seems to get a lot of recommendations. No one book is perfect for everyone. The original self-help book, by the way, was written by a French pharmacist and psychologist, Émile Coué de la Châtaigneraie (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89mile_Cou%C3%A9), who called it optimistic autosuggestion (or something like that in French.) It's a recurring theme in the field, so there must be something to it.

[B_B]

...I would say there is a lot of truth in Braam's statement as it bore on my feelings at the time. (avoid the assholes). ...
Thanks, but it was PMJ, IIRC, who said to avoid the a$$hats. I do, however, speak much truth :D

[hokiefan]

Amazing, honest and sharing statement, Katherine. ...

Some very good advice here, pick what fits and dump the stuff that's off base. A thinking person is going to suffer some in this world.

Lew, you nailed that one.

Bobby

[johnw]

I pointed out my concerns right in the quote. Whats your major malfunction?

He told you in post #8. It's a medical diagnosis.

You know, Mark, you come off as really paranoid and pessimistic. There may be no history of depression in your family, but who knows, you could be the first. No, no, don't thank me, we all have to look out for each other.

[Gerarddm]

There are risks associated with their use, just as there are incompetent professionals doleing them out, but to compare modern antidepressants with breathing exercises and naturopathic solutions is simply quackery

Listen: Big Pharma wants you sick, THAT'S HOW THEY MAKE MONEY.

Considering the evidence out there, to suggest that natural ways of reducing/alleviating depression is "quackery" is patent nonsense. I recall that when I was going through my very difficult divorce, Bach's Flower Remedies worked wonders at calming me down from some very high stress levels.

I did not compare modern anti-depressants to the alternatives I suggested. I even said that in certain cases they may be an appropriate short term Rx. But to suggest that ONLY modern anti-depressants are the answer, and/or are the answer for long term treatment is, in and of itself - well, modern quackery.

[ishmael]

Let's not beat a dead horse as it were.

Katherine is under the care of someone good I presume. We've all expressed good wishes. Maybe leave it at that or open a new thread.

[B_B]

Hey Lew! I loved it, put it back....effing hell. I had a (crappy) comeback.

Lets' see....Lew said "the last portion of your statement could be deleted without regret"... or some such.

I say: Apparently we both speak truth. :D ;)

Edit: on second thought the first part of your post was a compliment; I know how hard they are to give :D :D ;)

[Lew Barrett]

Hey Lew! I loved it, put it back....effing hell. I had a (crappy) comeback.

Lets' see....Lew said "the last portion of your statement could be deleted without regret"... or some such.

I say: Apparently we both speak truth. :D ;)

I'm glad you saw it, it was just for you anyway. ;)

What I said was: PMJ is a wise man, you are a modest one for not taking his credit. Modesty is an admirable virtue when applied with candor, so you can delete the last portion of your statement without regret!
With all due respect for a man who always speaks his truth (you), Braam.

[Duncan Gibbs]

Sorry to hear of your travails Katherine. FWIW I made the black dog announcement here a while back. It related to my job and the stress and anxiety it was giving me. I'm glad I had the job and did some pretty cool things whilst I was there, but I'm also glad I'm not there any more. I've lost weight (good), my disposition is much, much happier (good) and I feel more whole and productive. Whilst I do need to get a regular income happening sooner rather than later I can safely say that NO job is worth the harm it may bring to your mental and , ultimately, physical health if things are let to go on too long.

And exercise is good! :)

[Arizona Bay]

Separating 'feelings' and 'thought' and 'knowledge' is important. Understanding 'feelings' 'thought' and 'knowledge' is doubly so.
Learning how to do this is a key. Becoming an observer of all the inputs, and your reactions to them, brings the space that is needed to spot where the glitch is.

It's part of the practice of 'non attachment' that Buddism refers to.

Even observing 'understanding' is important.

[Katherine]

The meeting with HR went better then I could have expected, however, on a personal level, this birthday has been exceedingly difficult. I don't know what I would do if it weren't for the warm well wishes I received from the bilge rats. Thank you.

[seanz]

Awww.....All the best to you and Paul.
:)

[skipper68]

Kick A$$ Chick, I'm in your corner.Stop getting older, your dragging us all wit ya!:)

[Peter Malcolm Jardine]

Listen: Big Pharma wants you sick, THAT'S HOW THEY MAKE MONEY.

Considering the evidence out there, to suggest that natural ways of reducing/alleviating depression is "quackery" is patent nonsense. I recall that when I was going through my very difficult divorce, Bach's Flower Remedies worked wonders at calming me down from some very high stress levels.

I did not compare modern anti-depressants to the alternatives I suggested. I even said that in certain cases they may be an appropriate short term Rx. But to suggest that ONLY modern anti-depressants are the answer, and/or are the answer for long term treatment is, in and of itself - well, modern quackery.

There is a world of difference between situational depression, and diagnosed clinical depressions. Most of the naturopathic remedies have been blind tested with a placebo and found to have almost no effect on depression and anxiety disorders. There is some truth to the idea that if something makes you feel better, then stay with it. Exercise, good eating and sleep habits have a measurable effect of depression. Cognitive therapy also has a measurable effect. For those people who have diagnosed chemical imbalance and associated personality disorders benefit from modern anti depressants and anti psychotic drugs.


Here is the first thing you said:


Anti-depressant drugs can be very habit forming, and almost impossible to get weaned off.

That simply isn't true, and started your post. I replied to why that isn't true.
The second thing you said is this:


For short term relief I suppose you gotta do what you gotta do, but otherwise I vote for breathing excercises,
bio-feedback, therapy, and naturopathic remedies.

So you did suggest that Katherine use these techniques instead of listening to her Doctor. You have continued on in your current post to state that this is somehow just a conspiracy by the Drug companies to make money. While they make money selling drugs, that profit is a reflection of the immense research and development costs over the last 3 decades to produce anti depressants and anti psychotic medications. If you choose to study the history of treatment in mental illness, you will realize how draconian treatments of even the 1960's were in comparison to modern medications.

I don't disagree that pursuing things that make you feel better, whatever they are are valuable in recovery from depression. I'm saying they aren't science, and don't work all that well. If you really wanted to see big money, you could look at the naturopathic snake oil selling practitioners that have very little education and scientific background selling their holistic wares to people who just want to stop suffering and believe their pretty story.

[Hwyl]

I'm glad Lew mentioned your humor, I was thinking about you in work today, and I was remembering how you used to slip in those oh so subtle double entendres and punch lines. We could do with more of them.

[Lew Barrett]

Superb post, Peter. A complete and astute appraisal.

[Durnik]

The meeting with HR went better then I could have expected, however, on a personal level, this birthday has been exceedingly difficult. I don't know what I would do if it weren't for the warm well wishes I received from the bilge rats. Thank you.

Glad to hear you & HR are still on good terms..

I learned years ago, a b-day is simply another trip around the sun.. just make sure it's a fun trip! Hope your's are good!

had an interesting time myself 'bout 20 years ago.. easy to call it interesting now.. the perspective of many "trips 'round the sun" can have such an.. easing effect. Never read 'The Power of Positive Thinking", tho I agree with the concept. The one that worked for me was "Creative Visualization" by Shakti Gawain. As others have noted.. read anything positive you can find. Life is to short to not find your joys. Ah, yes.. botebum hit it.. breath deep.. oxygen & focus.. what a combo & free to boot!

and don't let the bastids get you down.. ;-)

enjoy
bobby

[Minnesnowtan]

Positive thinking helps.

I was 370lbs and now 225lbs. I saw a therapist for behavior modification. Basically it was just being held accountable to them. Anyhow we did a lot of positive thinking vs negative voice to yourself. I found that a good 10 minute walk, just a few blocks and back really helped even out the mood, gave one time to think and really lets you examine why you are thinking negative and change it to a positive.

Also helped me to get past a rough spot in my life and basically went from being unemployed to very gainfully employed.

[emichaels]

Katherine,
The book won't hurt that is for sure. Yes I read it a long time ago. I have a signed copy--saw him and his wife speak at U of Wash. a million years ago.

Every person is different. Every brain is different. Try the drugs if you are under excellent supervision, but don't ever let yourself think that is the whole answer. The relief you seek will come from within more than you can know.

On a more natural note and one that Americans and American doctors are still somewhat clueless about is Vitamin D. There have been some very very long term studies done and many more are going on today that are discovering the role Vit D and B play in the cellular chemistry in the brain. It is very techincal reading the sutides, but suffice to say they do know now that Vit D plays a huge role in regulating many chemical processes in the brain.

The AMA recommedation is far far lower than the European daily allowance and it is very easy to see the folly in the AMA's thinking.

Wish you well,

Eric

[B_B]

The meeting with HR went better then I could have expected....
The good thing about dealing with larger corporations is that they've generally seen it all before. I'm glad to hear it, and wish you well.

[BrianW]

Just some highlights from this thread I found enlightening...

Uncluttered house...

Doing chores promptly...

Reduce stress at work...

Exercise...

Good stuff there. I think all of us experience some depression at times. While not as serious as a diagnosed case, these tidbits of wisdom can help out during normal minor bouts of depression.

Best wishes Katherine. It appears you've taken the right road to a happier life.

[TomF]

Katherine,

Like pretty much everybody else, I'm so sorry that you're dealing with this. Depression and anxiety are a staple for my wife too - who unfortunately, responds very poorly to the various types of meds she's tried over the decades.

For her, and for me, exercise works best - aerobic exercise, even though I mostly hate the stuff, and would prefer to lift weights. Find something that's fun for you, that gives a sufficient aerobic push ... for me, it's turned out to be martial arts. CrossFit can be good too, especially if you get at all involved in the online community that keeps motivation high; fun too. But over time, I found it didn't give me enough rest to recover properly. The point is, doing something you find to be mind-numbing won't last, and quitting it will ultimately contribute to your depression and anxiety rather than relieve it.

The other thing that's helped us has been a spiritual discipline. By which I mean some kind of meditation, using whatever tradition (including none!) that you're comfortable with. Meditation changes you over time - though so gradually that you don't see it coming. Find a group that meditates together, as the peer pressure will keep you at it.

Blessings from here - it's tough, but you've got a lot more support than you think.

[John of Phoenix]

I saw a poster recently that really struck home. Visualize a simple profile of a woman standing with her head and shoulders drooped - tired and depressed. Next to her is a black dog twice her size. The caption says, "You'd never say, 'It's just cancer, get over it.' "

Wishing you well, Kathrine.

http://depressionisreal.org/

[hokiefan]

The meeting with HR went better then I could have expected, however, on a personal level, this birthday has been exceedingly difficult. I don't know what I would do if it weren't for the warm well wishes I received from the bilge rats. Thank you.

I'm glad to hear the first and sorry to hear the second. Best wishes getting yourself back to a good place.

Cheers,

Bobby

[Katherine]

I still have my job, but I've basically been told I should find a new one. Some people just can't understand how helpless and hellish mental illness can be.

[B_B]

I still have my job, but I've basically been told I should find a new one. Some people just can't understand how helpless and hellish mental illness can be.
Sorry to hear it. A fresh start may be a wonderful thing!

[Peter Malcolm Jardine]

Sorry to hear the second part Kat, but you know how I feel. There are some things you can't replace, but a job isn't one of them. The person that counts right now is you.

[skipper68]

Hopefully, they will see you in a more positive light, and consider differently. (I do believe their are laws on your side). Try not to stress more, and concentrate on you.:)

[Lew Barrett]

What Peter said. His advice has been on target right through this thread. You're who counts.

[Phil Y]

Hey Katherine-good on ya for coming out. Big step. Re the job, have you discussed with your actual boss? As someone who's had senior HR roles in a couple of large corporations, I'd suggest the conversation with HR is not necessarily the important one. Its the relationship with your direct manager that really matters. But as others have said-maybe the job is part of the problem. Change might be a good thing.
best wishes anyway
Phil

[ishmael]

Here I am, breaking my own rules of letting this lay, but I feel compelled to remind you that some of the most creative people who've ever walked this earth suffered as you do. I don't think it a prerequisite, but it does often go with the territory.

You're good. It sounds like it's time to move on. If I can help either you or Paul my number is in the book.

Jack

[htom]

HR may well know, and be unable to tell you directly, that things are going to get worse, or much worse, before there will be any hope of improvements. These days it seems better to be job hunting while still employed.

Facing these things is the first step to getting better treatment and getting better yourself, and I'm proud of you for doing so. My on-going best wishes, Katherine.

[Nanoose]

Yes, a new job may be the best thing.
But, I hope they are not telling you to move along due to a health issue.
That smacks of discrimination and illegality.

At its worst, the doctor's letter put me onto short term, followed by long term, disability.
Do you have a LTD benefit at work?
It seems that may be needed until you get your feet back under you, rather than just telling you to find a new job.
Talk about adding stress!! :(

Blessings....

[George Ray]

(1) You are extraordinarily brave and inspirational to open up and allow sunlight, fresh air, and public opinion to wash over the unpleasantness.
(2) The human organism has the ability to heal itself on all levels (I believe) but one needs to (A) allow for the possibility of some non-obvious reason for a temporarily unpleasant situation to exist. I.E, the silver lining in the dark cloud effect. (for example, the healing nature of this thread that you started, almost without exception the posts have been uplifting and coming from peoples higher nature, how's that for a miracle ! ) If nothing else this helps one forgive ones self for getting 'sick' and that is no small thing, and (B) the body, mind and spirit benefit from a little self help. (e.g. help the body with a good diet and moderate exercise, stretching and hydrating. Help the mind and spirit by striving to live in the present moment and allow others to be what what they are and offer help but not judgement. Forgive your self for what happened yesterday and don't dwell on what might happen tomorrow. If you do forget and live in the past or future, you then lose the present moment and it is the only place where life truly happens.
(3) There has been much good advice and sources of guidance and inspiration in this thread so far. I suspect that most all of them have the same underlying truths and the trick is to find the words and style that make the ideas resonate with you.

If a book can help you and I believe that is possible. Try using Amazon and the reviews to get a sense of the book, and let peoples responses to it to guide you in your search.

For me it is a constant struggle that I am coming to enjoy more every day. The journey feels like it was kick-started when I read Eckart Tolle's "The Power of Now".It is practical and springs from the common elements of the worlds wisdom traditions.
http://www.amazon.com/Power-Now-Guide-Spiritual-Enlightenment/dp/1577314808/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1313066925&sr=1-1
Eckart's newer book, "A New Earth" was a favorite of both Oprah and myself.
http://www.amazon.com/New-Earth-Awakening-Purpose-Selection/dp/0452289963/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top


Life is what happens while your making other plans.
When you going throughout HELL, keep going.
Be gentle to all, for everyone is fighting a great battle inside.
The truth comes in many forms, look for the version that resonates with you, trust your feelings on this.
Chemicals can help but try to make them the last rather then the first line of defense.
Effectively breath, stretch, and hydrate, as a minimum.
Best,
G

[TomF]

Crap, Katherine - that sucks. I'm sure the stress is helping things wonderfully.

Can only repeat what others have said - offering as much support as is possible through the electrons and pixels.

t

[Tylerdurden]

He told you in post #8. It's a medical diagnosis.

You know, Mark, you come off as really paranoid and pessimistic. There may be no history of depression in your family, but who knows, you could be the first. No, no, don't thank me, we all have to look out for each other.

Only similar experience I had was back to back Heart attacks while running a crew in Boston during the start of the big dig. All stress according to the doctors. I cashed out my stock took my contract severance pay and screwed from management to just being a lead tech in an outfit in Upstate NY. In the middle I took six months off as I could afford it. Best thing I ever did and the only time it raised it's ugly head again was prepping to take Marla south. Stress of closing shop, moving, selling stuff, Daughters wedding and the kids crawling up my butt not to leave pushed me over the edge and I had another. Now I just go where the wind blows and don't get upset over much anymore. Change was my medicine and beats Meds any day. I said I wasn't speaking to those who had a true imbalance and needed drugs. My issue is the sheer number of people on them. To me something isn't right with near half the population medicated in some way or another and the sheer number of children dragged into it. Only the person going through it can decide. I am not anyone's boss.

[htom]

Mark, I find it a bit surprising that only half are on psychoactive medications. We live in a very stress producing society, with huge masses of denial about how we get from day to day. We really almost need Soma.

[Tylerdurden]

Mark, I find it a bit surprising that only half are on psychoactive medications. We live in a very stress producing society, with huge masses of denial about how we get from day to day. We really almost need Soma.

Yep, that is all I was trying to say before the attacks started. It bothers me to see so many suffering. I feel somebody should be shouting to the rooftops its time for a change. Real change, not the fake change we are being offered.

[skipper68]

Very interesting links to the law.
Stress and Depression
and Job Problemshttp://www.timslaw.com/mental-health.htm

[johnw]

Only similar experience I had was back to back Heart attacks while running a crew in Boston during the start of the big dig. All stress according to the doctors. I cashed out my stock took my contract severance pay and screwed from management to just being a lead tech in an outfit in Upstate NY. In the middle I took six months off as I could afford it. Best thing I ever did and the only time it raised it's ugly head again was prepping to take Marla south. Stress of closing shop, moving, selling stuff, Daughters wedding and the kids crawling up my butt not to leave pushed me over the edge and I had another. Now I just go where the wind blows and don't get upset over much anymore. Change was my medicine and beats Meds any day. I said I wasn't speaking to those who had a true imbalance and needed drugs. My issue is the sheer number of people on them. To me something isn't right with near half the population medicated in some way or another and the sheer number of children dragged into it. Only the person going through it can decide. I am not anyone's boss.

I think you dealt with that situation wisely, I've done similar stuff when the job turned poison. The difference is, some people have brain chemistry that makes their life like that even if their situation is no worse than most, and it can make any situation worse. But it's very possible that the very thing that makes people vulnerable to depression is the spark that helps humanity adapt. Ever read this?

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2009/12/the-science-of-success/7761/

or this?

http://www.salon.com/life/feature/2011/08/02/first_rate_madness_interview

People who learn how to deal with this stuff can come out stronger.

[Katherine]

On the up side, I finally fessed up and told my boss he scares the crap out of me (in more polite terms). On the downside, some one really needs to explain to him, ADA, anxiety disorders, and how not to handle things in such away that that triggers an anxiety attack that turns your employee into a quivering, puking mess!

[ishmael]

Katherine, you have to have an old friend. Someone who you can talk to who doesn't judge you, just listens. Call them. Don't hesitate, even if you haven't spoken with them in twenty years, call them.

[Katherine]

Don't worry Ish, I have some very close long time friends who get the situation. My family understands because the disease is hereditary on Dad's side of the family. My sisters have also had problems over the years and know what kind of hell it can be. Paul is learning and he sees what I have to go through on a day by day basis. I'm also fortunate in the fact that the professionals that I seek help from are very knowledgeable and compassionate about the disease.

[Flying Orca]

Congrats on getting the info across to your boss - that has to have been tough, but it's good for you and should be good for the relationship, too. Hang in there!

[Katherine]

I told him, but I doubt it did anything to help the relationship. He just doesn't seem to "get" it. Then again a lot of people are the same way so I really can't blame him. It's one of those things that if you don't have first hand knowledge of, it's hard to truly understand.

[Flying Orca]

I've worked for toxic bosses, but not many and not in the last twenty years. I do hope your situation improves.

[hokiefan]

Life is hard. People don't get that until it happens to them in some fashion. Best wishes to you and yours Katherine.

Cheers,

Bobby

[skipper68]

If he "don't get it" I'm sorry. You are handling it. It is a fact. Read my link please. It is what it is. I had to deal with problems with my husband also, who "Didn't get it." Therapy convinced him to take a script for dealing with ME sometimes. If it is effecting your job performance, again, read my link. The TOXIC environment will be the reason. If it wont change,You have legal rights. It is SO hard to say somethings broke. Accepting is the first step. Those around you,listening to you, is the second step. You have many who care here. You will get balanced. The ramifications is your concern, in this scary journey. Be well, truly. Priority's are coming from all sides now. I do understand,and care also.:)

[Katherine]

In my continuing effort to stop hiding from the outside world, Paul and I have been taking turns deciding on weeks end activities. This past weekend was my turn. I dragged him on a two hour guided horseback ride over some of the state park's bridle paths. Since Paul is a big guy, he got the biggest horse in thr group (I got the second biggest, everyon else in our group was a kid or a twig). Paul's horse was atleast half, if not all Clysdale, lol. HE awas a good sport about it and we had fun. However, my rear end is reminding me that I haven't done any serious riding since college and my horse back then was a smoth gaited, flowing ride in comparison to the cart horse I had Saturday. LOL I've signed up to start taking group lessons to freshen up my horse skills.

[John of Phoenix]

However, my rear end is reminding me that I haven't done any serious riding since college and my horse back then was a smoth gaited, flowing ride in comparison to the cart horse I had Saturday. I hiked the Grand Canyon a couple of years back (in July which I don't recommend) with some friends. As hot and tired as we were, it was nothing compared to the folks who did the mule train. The misery on the faces of some of those folks was literally palpable as a couple of those poor people had actually been crying.

Your refresher training sounds like a great way to get some sunshine and exercise.

[RichKrough]

Glad to see you found a pony,|:)

Next maybe you could check out an Xterra from the company corral and do some 4x4, nothing like flying mud to make you grin.
http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,1607,7-153-10365_15070-38330--,00.html

[Katherine]

Next maybe you could check out an Xterra from the company corral and do some 4x4, nothing like flying mud to make you grin.
http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,1607,7-153-10365_15070-38330--,00.html An activity that is specifically forbidden under company rules. How it got to be forbidden is a rather humerous tale.

[htom]

An activity that is specifically forbidden under company rules. How it got to be forbidden is a rather humerous tale. I'll bite. Please, ma'am, what's the tale?

[Katherine]

I'll bite. Please, ma'am, what's the tale?Someone went off roading and rolled his vehicle. Now he does crash testing.

[Paul Pless]

An activity that is specifically forbidden under company rules. How it got to be forbidden is a rather humerous tale.Don't let Kat fool you. She has a non company offroad vehicle. . .a 1975 Ford F100 lifted 6" with a built 460!

[Hwyl]

An activity that is specifically forbidden under company rules. How it got to be forbidden is a rather humorous tale.

There's always Forumite Bruce (OEX) company. I have taken an off road course with Land Rover, it was surreal driving a brand new Range Rover up a dry river bed, with the A/C on and soft rock on the radio. The Rangey's have self leveling suspension of course. But to take one of OEX's courses must be the ultimate. http://www.overlandexperts.com/

[RichKrough]

Don't let Kat fool you. She has a non company offroad vehicle. . .a 1975 Ford F100 lifted 6" with a built 460!

Damn! You married well! Y>

[Durnik]

Don't let Kat fool you. She has a non company offroad vehicle. . . a 1975 Ford F100 lifted 6" with a built 460!

Sweet! but why the BB?? A 300-6 will still make her fly.. with the added benefit of keeping the front end from trying to bury itself.. not-to-mention, fuel economy greater than 8MPG.. ;-)

The biggest problem with my diesel (91, 7.3L IDI, 5spd, 4x4, extra cab long bed) - other than a non-existent turning radius ;-) - is the propensity to bury those front tires in soft soil.. that diesel is HEAVY.. pulls nice, tho.. ;-)

enjoy
bobby

[Paul Pless]

but why the BB??if you have to ask. . .

[Ron Williamson]

No kidding
R

[The Bigfella]

I find that my anxiety increases on Sunday evenings because work is such a huge stressor for me. I'm not looking forward to going in tomorrow. I had a medication interaction issue at work Friday that, while not dangerous to anyone, was very strange, scary, and embarrassing. Tomorrow I get to explain what happened with my Doctor's letter to the HR person. Should be loads of fun. Of course I want be a raving lunatic (sarcasm here). Oh well, I will get through it.

Katherine.... I wish you all the best. There's an old saying "you are what you eat".... and that's what's given me issues over the years. Some days I used to turn up at work and be as dopey as a person could possibly be. I eventually discovered that there were certain foods that I am intolerant of .... and when I have too much of them, they can kill me - literally. By managing those foods.... and funnily enough, I am attracted to them.... I am fine.

It may pay you to see a professional allergenist (sp?) and be tested for your reaction to various substances/foods. I, for example shouldn't eat tree nuts, beans, foods high in salycitic acid. Eat them today.... dopey or dead tomorrow.

[Ian McColgin]

An interesting and brave thread.

I take it first off that the all too commonly undiagnosed causes like thyroid have been eliminated.

Toxic bosses are a problem. While working for a genius who was also toxic I protected my staff. I had repeated bouts of bronchitis and a couple of shots at mild pneumonia and one very good friend, who had founded and directed the Cape's first battered women's shelter, pointed out to me the many ways that my health issues paralleled those of abused spouses staying in a relationship. Like abused spouses, many with toxic bosses feel ("rightly" or "wrongly") that they cannot leave the situation. If that's the heart of the problem - tracing employment and mental health history may help there if your therapist is competant in that direction - and if you cannot leave the job, then pallatives will help just so far.

Now to the point - I have not just read Dr Peale's methods. I've studied them with some care. Remember, I went to a theology school and many such schools (though not mine) took NVP as the very model of best pastoral-clinical work. One cannot dismiss his work out of hand because much of the actual techniques, for all the insane quasi-theological hidden assumptions in his theoretical construct, are effective. As in so much that's as much art as science, the work may function even when the theory is clap-trap. So read the book if you like and give it a whirl. Especially in the context of active evangelical church involvement, it may very well help you. If it doesn't, feel no guilt over that. In the life of the spirit, as in so much else, almost anything works sometime and nothing works all the time.

Courage & G'luck

[varadero]

Katherine.... I wish you all the best. There's an old saying "you are what you eat".... and that's what's given me issues over the years. Some days I used to turn up at work and be as dopey as a person could possibly be. I eventually discovered that there were certain foods that I am intolerant of .... and when I have too much of them, they can kill me - literally. By managing those foods.... and funnily enough, I am attracted to them.... I am fine.

It may pay you to see a professional allergenist (sp?) and be tested for your reaction to various substances/foods. I, for example shouldn't eat tree nuts, beans, foods high in salycitic acid. Eat them today.... dopey or dead tomorrow.

I have suffered from this for the past few years. They have a saying here in Spain, "At 4 o'clock in the morning, all the cats are black." For me it is not so much what I eat, but when. if I eat at 6.30 am, 10.00 am, 1.00 pm, and 3.00 pm, a light snack at 8.00pm, and thats it, I am generally fine. When I skip meals and go hungry the world closes around me. Good luck.

[PhaseLockedLoop]

There is a world of difference between situational depression, and diagnosed clinical depressions.

That's for sure. I can't imagine a clinically depressed person getting much out of a positive-thinking self-help book. Such books may be valuable for folks who are down in the dumps, or have fallen into bad habits of thought and/or action. Anyone in a black depression or a panic attack isn't likely to benefit, though I suppose it wouldn't hurt to try. A lot of clinical depression is so awful that drugs are the first line of defense.


Most of the naturopathic remedies have been blind tested with a placebo and found to have almost no effect on depression and anxiety disorders.

I just don't think that's true. Such studies are expensive, and who'd pay for them? No doubt some of the stuff for which wacky claims have been made have been tested, but there's really no way to test something like, e.g., a course in Bach flower remedies. In any case, the reason (if there is one) to prefer naturopathic remedies is that they aren't sledge-hammer and pry-bar brain chemestry solutions. Then too, bear in mind that plenty of the drugs being sold are based on naturopathic remedies, sufficently isolated and amplified so they'll show well in double-blind tests.

While I deplore the popular scientific notion that anything that isn't a product of the practice of technological medicine is fakery, I do think that profoundly depressed people had best try the latest drugs, and then read the self-help books if they can. The fact that some huge percentage of the population is under the influence of such drugs is testimony to the marketing skills of Big Pharma.

[RichKrough]

Someone went off roading and rolled his vehicle. Now he does crash testing.

Distracted driving no doubt :d
Be well Katherine


http://youtu.be/zKO-tZGuFDg

[Katherine]

Actually my therapy is a combination of medication and cognitive behavioral changes. The meds help me be able to make the cognitive decisions with a clear head. I many never be completely off meds, but that isn't necessarily my goal. My goal is to live the highest quality of life I can. things are improving, slowly. I'm starting to want to actually live my life again and do things. We went out with Dan and Allan a few weeks ago. Last weekend, Paul and I went out horse back riding. I even signed up for riding lessons. This weekend, Paul and I are going canoeing.

My new found strength and skill really got put to the test this morning when I had an accident on the way into work. I'm ok, the car can be fixed and cleaned(there is about a gallon of homemade tomato sauce that got spilled in the front passenger wheel well). It set off a HUGE anxiety attack, but I was able to calmly discuss with the first responders what was going on and how I was feeling. When we got the the ER, while stressed and feeling like I was on the edge of totally loosing, I was able to discuss the situation with the Dr and nurses. I did end up having to take medication at the ER, but I did not turn in to a blubbering, incoherent basket case. A few months ago, I would have.

[Uncle Duke]

Actually my therapy is a combination of medication and cognitive behavioral changes. The meds help me be able to make the cognitive decisions with a clear head. I many never be completely off meds, but that isn't necessarily my goal. My goal is to live the highest quality of life I can. things are improving, slowly. I'm starting to want to actually live my life again and do things. We went out with Dan and Allan a few weeks ago. Last weekend, Paul and I went out horse back riding. I even signed up for riding lessons. This weekend, Paul and I are going canoeing.

My new found strength and skill really got put to the test this morning when I had an accident on the way into work. I'm ok, the car can be fixed and cleaned(there is about a gallon of homemade tomato sauce that got spilled in the front passenger wheel well). It set off a HUGE anxiety attack, but I was able to calmly discuss with the first responders what was going on and how I was feeling. When we got the the ER, while stressed and feeling like I was on the edge of totally loosing, I was able to discuss the situation with the Dr and nurses. I did end up having to take medication at the ER, but I did not turn in to a blubbering, incoherent basket case. A few months ago, I would have.
The most heartening post I have read in a very long tiime.
Thank you very much.

[johnw]

Actually my therapy is a combination of medication and cognitive behavioral changes. The meds help me be able to make the cognitive decisions with a clear head. I many never be completely off meds, but that isn't necessarily my goal. My goal is to live the highest quality of life I can. things are improving, slowly. I'm starting to want to actually live my life again and do things. We went out with Dan and Allan a few weeks ago. Last weekend, Paul and I went out horse back riding. I even signed up for riding lessons. This weekend, Paul and I are going canoeing.

My new found strength and skill really got put to the test this morning when I had an accident on the way into work. I'm ok, the car can be fixed and cleaned(there is about a gallon of homemade tomato sauce that got spilled in the front passenger wheel well). It set off a HUGE anxiety attack, but I was able to calmly discuss with the first responders what was going on and how I was feeling. When we got the the ER, while stressed and feeling like I was on the edge of totally loosing, I was able to discuss the situation with the Dr and nurses. I did end up having to take medication at the ER, but I did not turn in to a blubbering, incoherent basket case. A few months ago, I would have.

That does sound like progress, so congratulations. It's situations like that where you find out how far you've come, and how far you have to go.

[Durnik]

Actually my therapy is a combination of medication and cognitive behavioral changes. The meds help me be able to make the cognitive decisions with a clear head. I many never be completely off meds, but that isn't necessarily my goal. My goal is to live the highest quality of life I can. things are improving, slowly. I'm starting to want to actually live my life again and do things. We went out with Dan and Allan a few weeks ago. Last weekend, Paul and I went out horse back riding. I even signed up for riding lessons. This weekend, Paul and I are going canoeing.

My new found strength and skill really got put to the test this morning when I had an accident on the way into work. I'm ok, the car can be fixed and cleaned(there is about a gallon of homemade tomato sauce that got spilled in the front passenger wheel well). It set off a HUGE anxiety attack, but I was able to calmly discuss with the first responders what was going on and how I was feeling. When we got the the ER, while stressed and feeling like I was on the edge of totally loosing, I was able to discuss the situation with the Dr and nurses. I did end up having to take medication at the ER, but I did not turn in to a blubbering, incoherent basket case. A few months ago, I would have.

Great to hear you're doing well, and you are correct.. cars can be repaired.. but, "a gallon of homemade tomato sauce that got spilled in the front passenger wheel well".. you know I need to ask.. do you often carry a gallon of homemade tomato sauce about? ;-)

enjoy
bobby

[Durnik]

but why the BB??

if you have to ask. . .

Ah, back in the late 70's, I had a Heavy Chevy.. essentially, a Chevelle SS with an automatic (TH400 3spd).. that means 402 BB, mildly reworked.. solid lifter cam, Edelbrock Torker intake, Holley 850 dbl pumper.. dual low restriction exhaust.. you know, all the right things.. Yea, she moved.. So, I might know big blocks.. ;-)

However, in the mid 70's, I had a 68 Jeep C101, AKA Jeepster Commando.. Nice vehicle, 4x4 (of course) 3 spd/2 spd xfer case & a 225 V6.. Nice.. I never should have gotten rid of it.. Ah, well. I did a bit of off roading in northern Maine.. there was a fellow up there had an F100 (70 or so).. 4x4, 3+1 tranny (granny first & reverse), single spd xfer case.. and a 300-6.. Other than the CJ's, he was the only driver who could go anywhere I did.. Blazers, Broncos & Rams were pulled from the muck a plenty.. Johnny & his F100 just a kept on truckin'.. ;-)

Big engines tend to make a front end sink.. You want to talk torque? I run a diesel now.. IH 7.3L IDI.. That's got torque! but it's heavy.. My 83 FJ60 Landcruiser (260-6, 4x4, 4 spd, 2 spd xfer) will go places my diesel can't.. cause it's lighter.. a _lot_ lighter..

So, that's why I wondered why Katherine's off-roader had a 460 & not a 300-6.. simple, eh?

Size the engine to the job..

Now, if it's a hot rod.. Well, there you go! ;-)

YMMV, (Hah! ;-)) IMHO, YADDA, YADDA..

enjoy
bobby

[seanz]

Great to hear you're doing well, and you are correct.. cars can be repaired.. but, "a gallon of homemade tomato sauce that got spilled in the front passenger wheel well".. you know I need to ask.. do you often carry a gallon of homemade tomato sauce about? ;-)

enjoy
bobby

Everybody should, in the event of a collision it guarantees the ambulance shows up that much quicker.......

[Durnik]

Everybody should, in the event of a collision it guarantees the ambulance shows up that much quicker.......

;-)

[Katherine]

Great to hear you're doing well, and you are correct.. cars can be repaired.. but, "a gallon of homemade tomato sauce that got spilled in the front passenger wheel well".. you know I need to ask.. do you often carry a gallon of homemade tomato sauce about? ;-)

enjoy
bobbyThe tomato sauce actually caused the accident. We were having a cooking contest at work yesterday that I was entered in. I THOUGHT I had the crock pot braced well enough, but when I had to make a sharp turn, it began to over turn. I reached down to grab it and that when the car ran off the road and into a road sign.

[Durnik]

The tomato sauce actually caused the accident. We were having a cooking contest at work yesterday that I was entered in. I THOUGHT I had the crock pot braced well enough, but when I had to make a sharp turn, it began to over turn. I reached down to grab it and that's when the car ran off the road and into a road sign.

Ouch! adding insult to injury.. we have to believe you would have won.. ;-)

At least it was just a mess & not a bloody mess.. tho the floor might have looked like it.. ;-)

enjoy
bobby

[ramillett]

Katherine I think I understand what your going threw . I started getting attacks back in early 70's . the doctors thought it was asthma , so we went with that for a while . A few years later I ended up in the ER for a big attack , that one the doctors thought it was a pizza we ate , so they tested me for ulcers . For the next 30 years I went threw a battery of tests , and a number trips to the ER , no improvement . About 4 years back thing started going down hill fast . I couldn't go in certain buildings , couldn't watch TV program where people were trapped . I even went to an theater to see a movie our boat was in , didn't make it threw the title , ended up at the fire station on an EKG , checking if I was having a hart attack .

The way I found my problem was I was heading to another meeting at a customer , that I wanted to skip , because I had an attack the last time I was there . I was driving on the same road as last time when I got to the same place the attack went off again . My chest was hurting so I pulled over and looked for a ant-acid no luck , but I found a bottle of Vicodin I figured it's for pain what the hell . The pain and panic disappeared in just a few minutes , a little druggy but able to finish the day . The only problem was as soon as the pill wore off the attach returned , so off to the doctor .


My first question was , is there a chance these are panic attacks ? I got his interest up . After going threw all the details he put me on Prozac . After a week I call him and asked how should I feel . He said I should feel good , I said I can't keep my eyes open , so he put me on anther pill , Effexor . He said it was used for bi-polar . After a month I went back and said no attacks , not sleepy , but some interesting dreams :) he said great and doubled the dose . I've been going over 2 years , without any attacks . After a year I told the doctor I couldn't feel the drug anymore , and would it be OK to try without ? He said there shouldn't be any effects , no addiction , but it mite come back . I stopped a couple of times , but after 3 to 5 days , the hart burn started coming back , that was enough to get back on it .


I think my oldest son has the same problem as I do . I see a lot of not so good traits I realize now I had back a few years , like when things are good he's all smiles , when something not going well the world is doomed . And If somebody were not to do something the right way (his way) the wrath of Ryan comes out :)


Your adventure with the sauce , reminded me of a trip in a motorhome when the kids were young . We took a trip to the mountains , and my wife made a big pot of spaghetti , and put in the fridge , as we were driving up the wined y road , we hear the fridge door slam open . My eyes are now glued to the rear view mirror watching this pot working its out , and also trying to keep the couch on the road . The couch made it ,the pot didn't :( Bob

[Katherine]

Depression and anxiety issues are prevalent on Dad's side of the family. We used to joke that you went to the family reunions just to see who forgot to take their medication that day. Knowing it is a family trait is a mixed blessing. It doesn't carry the same stigma it might in other families, but you know it's eventually going to hit some of the children too.

[ramillett]

I'm finding that there's more people like us with screws loose then not :)

[Katherine]

I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it!

[ramillett]

Now that my Dad is 90 I'm starting to hear more stories , and I'm not sure if I should smile or run . One day my Dad call me , and asked for my brother , I said this is Bob , Dad you called the wrong kid . He said thats ok and started telling me my mother had died this morning . While he's talking , I'm hearing in the back round my mother screaming " I'm not dead " " I'm not dead " then " Who in hell let him near a phone " . Yep life is going to be interesting :)

[Wooden Boat Fittings]

"The reports of my death are greatly exaggerated." That's a lovely picture of your Mum, Bob. :) The good thing for Ryan is that he's now prepared and doesn't have to go through decades of doubt, as you did.


Actually my therapy is a combination of medication and cognitive behavioral changes.

I don't consider myself a psychologist Katherine, but I do have a degree with a double major in it, including clinical psych, and I would say that your approach to the problem is exactly the right one -- drugs to help you rebalance while you deal rationally with the underlying problem. (I suffered severe depression back in the 80s, which was treated in just the same way.)

I wish you well on your journey back to wellness.

Mike

[purri]

CBT, Jungian cognitive therapy and no drugs worked for me (though the no meds took longer to achieve the goal). FWIW western societies impose much more of a burden for (esp) males to provide to (self and external) expectations thus the problem.

Just saying...

[Spin_Drift]

Katherine, how are you doing?

I run across this today while reading "Smartplanet". I hope it can help you. Wishing you all the best.


http://www.smartplanet.com/blog/rethinking-healthcare/interactive-tool-offers-exercises-to-beat-depression/6508?tag=nl.e660