I sorta knew that topic was done...

[Stan C]

I was gonna let it die but as responses kept coming I addressed them. I believe that I learned what I needed to know and really don't think that incivility was necessary. I didn't bother to remember your name(s) before deleting but you know who you are and will always be yourselves, which is to my satisfaction.

Stan C: still confident

[dmede]

huh?

[paladin]

Uh, Stan...what happened...?

[Donn]

This happened:


"Kid, at least I hope your a kid. You sound like a wide eyed 19 year old. Anyway kid your all over the place. Your thinking of # 1 learning shipbuilding #2 build a 60-ft live aboard #3 sail around the world solo [Roll Eyes] Come on please one pipe dream at a time. Think about Ian who just lost a 55 footer live aboard and trust me kid your no Ian, folla? When you have 40 words for wind like Ian has then you come talk to me about a 60 ft single handed sailboat. Sorry Im being hard on ya, and trust me I haven't got half the sailing and building gronicles that some of the others who have responded to you have. Maybe its just my NY skepticism but something is a little off in ALL your posts - REALITY is missing.

The good thing in all of them has been the wonderful thoughtful responses buy our elite group of formites some gems in the responses to be savored, I thank you for that.

I said my piece no harm meant, continue to dream.

Edited to add:

quote:age early 40's,

GEEEEZUZ [Eek!] [Eek!] [Eek!] [Roll Eyes]"

[Stan C]

Originally posted by Donn:
This happened:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />"Kid, at least I hope your a kid. You sound like a wide eyed 19 year old. Anyway kid your all over the place. Your thinking of # 1 learning shipbuilding #2 build a 60-ft live aboard #3 sail around the world solo [Roll Eyes] Come on please one pipe dream at a time. Think about Ian who just lost a 55 footer live aboard and trust me kid your no Ian, folla? When you have 40 words for wind like Ian has then you come talk to me about a 60 ft single handed sailboat. Sorry Im being hard on ya, and trust me I haven't got half the sailing and building gronicles that some of the others who have responded to you have. Maybe its just my NY skepticism but something is a little off in ALL your posts - REALITY is missing.

The good thing in all of them has been the wonderful thoughtful responses buy our elite group of formites some gems in the responses to be savored, I thank you for that.

I said my piece no harm meant, continue to dream.

Edited to add:

quote:age early 40's,

GEEEEZUZ [Eek!] [Eek!] [Eek!] [Roll Eyes]" </font>[/QUOTE]Donn,

You forgot to mention the horses' ass picture.

[Donn]

I didn't forget, and the target was hit.

[paladin]

Stan....No matter who or what is posted I always try to answer properly, sometimes with a little dry humor.......but I do not resort to general phrases to belittle someone. if anything I said was out of line or construed as such, I apologize.
.......but having built several boats, and sailed them a long distance in lotsa different weather, I do try to be practical. My methods may not be up to snuff with some of the older pharts here, but I try.

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

Donn
:rolleyes:

[Dave Fleming]

If the quote by Donn is accurate and in full then...

Dhowman, regardless of how comfortable you feel within the sanctity of your immense boat building skills.

Your bringing your Bilge attitude way above decks here.

:mad: :mad: :mad:

[Stan C]

Originally posted by paladin:
Stan....No matter who or what is posted I always try to answer properly, sometimes with a little dry humor.......but I do not resort to general phrases to belittle someone. if anything I said was out of line or construed as such, I apologize.
.......but having built several boats, and sailed them a long distance in lotsa different weather, I do try to be practical. My methods may not be up to snuff with some of the older pharts here, but I try.Paladin:

No, no no, it was mostly just the unsavory photograph that I chose to delete without bothering to remember who sent it.
I really thought I was answering properly. If no one else likes my idea of the ideal livaboard cruiser, or if they don't think I can ever build a boat that big then they are of course entitled to their opinions. I am really just here to learn.

The thing is that I don't believe that anything I said called for an insult, though my lack of experience might be offensive to some of those who've had the priviledge of a lifetime of sailing. Can't we all just let it die quietly?

SC

[ 06-24-2005, 06:27 PM: Message edited by: Stan C ]

[Donn]

Relax, Stan. You were not the target.

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

Originally posted by Dave Fleming:
If the quote by Donn is accurate and in full then...

Dhowman, regardless of how comfortable you feel within the sanctity of your immense boat building skills.

Your bringing your Bilge attitude way above decks here.

:mad: :mad: :mad: Sorry Dave I guess I'm just missing these days. :confused: Must not be getting my ideas across or reading things wrong. :confused: I guess I'm troubled. I have polarized my self quite a bit so the shtick has stuck to me and wont come off.

San C, I apologize to you and to the rest of the forum. I guess I'm having trouble, don't know why just am, sorry. Ill fix the initial thread and take a few days off. Try to figure myself out. People who are my friends on this forum start telling you your behaving like an ass its time you stop behaving like one.

[ 06-03-2005, 07:58 PM: Message edited by: Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson ) ]

[Stan C]

Originally posted by Donn:
Relax, Stan. You were not the target.Since I chose to delete the topic I cannot go back and try to see what I misinterpreted. I guess I must owe an apology to you, Donn.
I'm sorry, and I should've been more careful.

As far as that topic, ah well it sounded kinda silly the way I wrote it and I 'm learning fast enough that my inexperience then was looking kind of embarassing to me now.

Thanks to all who have responded.

SC

[ 06-03-2005, 08:22 PM: Message edited by: Stan C ]

[yorgie]

Keep working on achieving your dreams Stan.Postive optimism should never be quenched.There were some good suggestions on that thread and I hope some of them lead you forward.

Joe,if you are still reading maybe this would be a good time to apologize to Barry.He came over to my place last night to pick up some locust and yellow cedar that I procured for his gaff-lifeboat restoration.If you and MMike can start behaving civilly he might come back to the forum and share some photos of his progress.

Chris

[RodB]

Stan,

The best part of your situation is you have plenty of time to achieve just about any goal, especially if you get focused and head directly towards that goal. Learn all you can and realize that most folks limitations are based on lifestyle changes and family responsibilities and of course financial resources. But remember, financial goals can always be achieved if one keeps an eye on the prize and handle's money with some degree of smarts.

Many many would be boatbuilders wish they had caught this " boat loving sickness" much earlier in their life so that they could have began workng towards their dream boats early on. Don't think for a moment that most folks herein have any less passion than you do for boats...most have just had time to learn first hand what it takes to actually conceptualize and build a boat and most have a realistic idea of their limitations.

You figure out exactly what would "float your boat" and go for it. Remember, as time goes by and you learn more about boats, your tastes will change. Theres lots to learn here and in all the wonderful literature out there.

Good Luck and enjoy the journey,

RB

[ 06-03-2005, 10:35 PM: Message edited by: RodB ]

[Ethan]

Stan,
I have to admit to not having read the thread that prompted this one. However, if I deduce right from the above, you caught a little flack over the grand scope of your dream, eh?

I would like to just add the following:

Bob Smalser didn't exit the womb knowing everything about wood.
MMD didn't just wake up one day and find himself scarily knowledgeable in boat design/engineering.
Norm Messinger didn't just all of a sudden find himself surrounded by grand neighbors.

My point is - screw the naysayers. EVERY SINGLE PERSON here started with a dream and a first step. So, I for one applaude and encourage the lofty dream - by you or anyone else. And I truly hope that whatever transpired here doesn't discourage you or lessen the fire in your belly.

Best Regards, Ethan

[Stan C]

I really don't have anything to complain about. What happened was that while I was tired of that thread- in which I must've used about 1000 words to describe the design that I picture in my head of the ideal livaboard- I still was responding to whatever comments were offered until today when it took turn away from the positive. To top it off I overreacted and thought that an insulting photo was intended for me and responded by deleting the topic. There was some good information on there and hopefully I haven't forgotten anything important.

I am not so sensitive about criticism of my concept as many seem to think I might be, but I do think that the fact that I have none other than 'book' experience can be overcome and don't think that I need a whole lifetime of working on and sailing boats to achieve what I want. I believe that money is the big obstacle.

If I could afford to comission the build and take a lot of sailing lessons then I could have what I want in 2 or 3 years.

I know that there will always be more to learn and for that reason I am anxious to get started, which in my situation means to go to boatbuilding school and then to work as an apprentice in somebody's shop. If I knew anybody who sailed I would most likely have some experience and wouldn't have to wait til I finish this peapod I'm working on to be able to get on the water.

This fellow Ian who lost his 55' boat, I would certainly want to know what happened and don't doubt that he had considerable experience. It seems likely that I would've read about it in some magazine eventually but if anyone wants to clue me in now as to where to look (on these pages?) then I'll find out sooner. I welcome all info that will contribute to my education, with absolute confidence that I will not be scared off of my dream. I'm in this for the long haul. See me in 10 or 15 years if you don't believe.

To all who have offered encouragement, I appreciate the spirit in which it has been given. Thank You.

SC

[Art Read]

Don't worry so much about your "inexperience". Experience is just what some of us here have aquired from having done things wrong. Sometimes VERY wrong...

That being said, finding yourself a berth aboard a vessel with an "experienced" skipper for a while, private or commercial, paid or not, will pay LARGE dividends when it comes time to build, buy or forget the whole thing. Just beware: If it suits you, exposure to a life at sea will ruin you for anything else...

[Meerkat]

You should listen to Art! - he's been at this a long time. I've met him and he's defintely ruined! ;)

[Art Read]

Now, now, Meer... I know you meant that as a back-handed complement, (I hope...) :D

The fact remains however... I'm never, ever gonna "fit in" again with the traditional 9-5 lifestyle.

[ 06-04-2005, 04:17 AM: Message edited by: Art Read ]

[Meerkat]

:eek: What are YOU doing up so late? :D

Of course it was! smile.gif

[Art Read]

Late? It's early! I don't have to be in Bellingham 'till noon tommorow to start my next class... PLENTY of time! ;)

(See you all next week...)

[Dave Fleming]

Stan, Ian just lost Grana on a breakwater during some really nasty weather back east.

See his recent postings in Misc Boat Related and in People and Places.

He took time to explain the whys and wherefores of her loss, salvage and eventual breakup.

Good reading for anyone interested in the sea.
Or so says I.

[George.]

Your thinking of # 1 learning shipbuilding #2 build a 60-ft live aboard #3 sail around the world solo [Roll Eyes] Come on please one pipe dream at a time. I don't know who posted that, but unless he/she/it personally knows Stan and his potential, it is to be disregarded.

I happen to have taught myself boatbuilding and built a 57' live aboard - the first and only boat I have ever built. I have not gone around the world solo, but I have sailed her solo, and someday may well take her far beyond the horizon.

This is not to say it is easy. It took me about four years of planning, study, and saving money before I even started, and then seven years of construction. It ended up costing twice as much, taking three times as long, and being four times as hard as I thought. But I managed to finish, and I am sure others can, too, if they are persistent and motivated and can afford the time.

[Donn]

Stan...the original thread was still in the cache on one of my machines, so I emailed it to you, this morning.

[landlocked sailor]

Remember the Three Secrets of Happiness:
1. Someone to love
2. Something to do
3. Something to hope for

Life would not be worth living without 'pipedreams' Rick

[Stan C]

Originally posted by Donn:
Stan...the original thread was still in the cache on one of my machines, so I emailed it to you, this morning.Thank You.

SC

[Stan C]

Originally posted by George.:
I happen to have taught myself boatbuilding and built a 57' live aboard - the first and only boat I have ever built. I have not gone around the world solo, but I have sailed her solo, and someday may well take her far beyond the horizon.

This is not to say it is easy. It took me about four years of planning, study, and saving money before I even started, and then seven years of construction. It ended up costing twice as much, taking three times as long, and being four times as hard as I thought. But I managed to finish, and I am sure others can, too, if they are persistent and motivated and can afford the time.[/QB][/QUOTE]

George,

Your simple statement of sucess outweighs any number of predictions of my failure.

The size of your boat, your lack of previous experience, and the time frame you mention so closely match what I'm looking at that it sounds like my own plan, with the exception that I want to first spend a year in boatbuilding school and then work under some experts while saving up for materials.

I would like very much to hear about your boat and experiences, while building and on the water.

If you wouldn't mind emailing me with some of the details perhaps we could talk.

stansboatplan@yahoo.com

Or if you prefer this forum then everyone could be in on it. Either way, I d be very interested.

SC

[ 06-04-2005, 08:47 PM: Message edited by: Stan C ]

[Stan C]

Posted by Art Read:


Just beware: If it suits you, exposure to a life at sea will ruin you for anything else...The thing is that I never could relate to the regular routine most people accept. That's why I've still got nothing to hold me back. I can't be ruined cause I'm there already.

SC

[ 06-05-2005, 07:12 AM: Message edited by: Stan C ]

[Roger Cumming]

R.D. Culler said that "experience starts when you begin.". "It's only a boat; go ahead and build it.". Don't let the brainiacs on this forum deter you...

[seafox]

stan
I wish I had your curse of youth

I missed the thread but would like to sugest bhulers back yard boat building if you have not already read it. two points mr bhuler makes come to mind the first is a story of a wood worker who got a very expencive and wonderful piece of wood but he has not started on the project he got it for because "he was not experienced and ready enough yet" a dozen years latter the piece of wood is still safely stored behind the mans dresser the second is that a large simple boat is easyer than a small complexboat. mr bhuler called it the big-little boat vrs the little-big boat.

I don't know what you wrote of your dreams and what I am saying I relise may have no use to you but I'll toss in a couple of thoughts
plywood or wood is the strength fibreglass with eposie or other goop is the protection.

alan vitus wrote a neat book on covering wooden boats with fibre glass

consider a multihull a trimaran is a wonderfull for living and sailing jim browns boy (tim?) who went into proas says that with a proa you have to take care of the boat while a trimaran will take care of you)

see the opus cartoon by burley breathed on todays june 5 sunday paper

[Stan C]

I have read George Buehler's book and his 'little big boat' concept has influenced my thinking, as did Dave Gerr's opinions on double enders and flush decks in THE NATURE OF BOATS.

Here is my present idea of my ideal self-built permanent livaboard cruiser:

60' double ended (or canoe stern if it can be done in plywood) ketch, built of multi chine monocoque frameless stitch and glue construction, with additional layers of plywood vacuum bagged on for strength. I think that after the curvature of the hull is defined it would not be necessary to scarph the additional layers, they could be applied in 8' lengths. The edges would be beveled though. Then the hull would be covered, first with glass then kevlar.

Since this is to be a world cruiser and will at times be very far from repair facilities, I would not want a center board as this would compromise the integrity of the hull. I do however want (very) shoal draft for access to rivers and safe anchorages, and for this I will accept leeboards.

I think that construction could be fairly simple with the first (S&G) layer bent on over 2 watertight bulkheads (1 forward, 1 aft) and 1 frame at the point of maximum beam. I'm wondering about pouring in concrete for stem and stern posts. Or maybe welded steel ends could be set in place after the planking is finished. The ballast keel would probably be cast iron, very long (maybe 30'+) but not very high (deep)- only about 20".

Since this is to be my permanent home and about 1/2 of the time I would be living in a port while accumulating funds for cruising, the boat needs to be comfortable like a 1 bedroom apartment when shorepower is available. This means a very large and highly functional galley with lots of reefer capacity (multiple units), air conditioning, and a spacious master's head compartment with full size shower stall.

The above mentioned watertight bulkheads will seperate the interior into 3 spaces:

The aft bulkhead will seperate the walk in engine and laundry room, other machinery, firewood storage, bicycle/moped garage, and guest head from the living space.

The forward bulkhead will seperate the luxuriant master's cabin and master's head from the saloon. I believe this arrangement would also work for chartering. (There would be another smaller W.T. bulkhead seperating the forepeak with it's anchor and chain locker from the forward cabin.)

The midships space would contain the companionway, pilot berth, nav station, galley with wet bar, dining area, saloon with wood stove, and sea berths.

L.O.A.: 60'- or less; BEAM: about 14' or 15', less if possible; DRAFT: max 4' 10" as designed, maybe 6" more when laden for cruising. Leeboards if necessary.

The decks will be mostly flush except for bulwarks, and a conical plywood section to allow plenty of headroom over the companionway and as a place to attach a dodger. Full standing headroom is a must when forward of the engine room.

I see that this will mean a lot of top hamper, especially for such a shallow draft.

As a world cruiser this craft will need to be very seaworthy, and as a long term home seakindliness is very important also.

I origonally put this concept on the design page TO SEEK COMMENTS ABOUT THE IDEA ITSELF, not opinions as to whether I could build it. It isn't that I don't want those opinions, actually I do- but I really most of all think that this boat would be wonderful to have and that SOMEBODY should be building them. I am a long way from being able to start such a project, I just am facinated ( ok maybe obsessed ) with the possibilities.

So that is the basic idea for those who missed it, better written this time.

I know this is a very tall order and wonder if all of these attributes can be had together in an easy to assemble plywood hull.

SC

[ 06-24-2005, 06:08 PM: Message edited by: Stan C ]

[Stan C]

P.S. : TO SEAFOX: Thanks for the comments. I haven't heard of Alan Vitus before but I'll try to look up the book, also I am interested in finding Reuel Parker's book on his cold molding techniques.

Yeah, I saw Opus. Poor Steve.

SC

[ 06-06-2005, 08:35 PM: Message edited by: Stan C ]

[Meerkat]

Well, as an idea, it's not really anything new. You're not the first, nor I suspect, the last, to want an ocean-going 1 bedroom (or more) apartment. One couple even went into business to supply such craft - and didn't last all that long as there's just not that much for boats that cost in excess of $300,000 (and this was back in the 90's - it would be much more now). Their boats had washers and dryers, gen sets, refrigerator and freezer, soapstone fireplace, all tucked into a high performance ULDB cruiser.

If you really want a well-grounded idea of what people do who actually live on boats full time, I suggest you get and read the whole "Seraffyn" series by Lin and Larry Pardey. In particular, there are some appendices that you'll find very informative about what you specifically want to do.

For most people, your idea is completely impractical, unless you've got loads and loads of money or an amazing ability to attract donations from people. My guess is that for a fully equipped, ready for sea 60' sailboat, you're looking at $500,000 minimum, plus annual maintenence costs in excess of $15,000 (annualized over a 5-7 year period).

BTW, what skill are you planning to offer in these many ports of call? There are very few skills that allow one to walk in the door (sail into the port) and immediately be welcome to work.

[L.W. Baxter]

My guess is that for a fully equipped, ready for sea 60' sailboat, you're looking at $500,000 minimum, plus annual maintenence costs in excess of $15,000 (annualized over a 5-7 year period).
A 60' sailboat backyard-built ala Buehler with construction grade materials, galvanized fastenings, rebuilt motor, recycled sails, basic systems, workboat finish, etcetera, could be made seaworthy and maintained for a fraction of that. Maybe one-tenth?

That's an awful big boat to build alone, even if one is going to make a hash of it, but it has been done, eh?

It wouldn't have much monetary value or last for many decades, but the initial cost would be lower than the first day's depreciation on that $500k yacht, so who cares? If one's principle desire is the seaborne life it can be done cheaply. This has been well established through the experience of real people who have done it.

Now me, I'd spend my pocket change and spare energy building something of more modest size, of capable, classic design, with durable, beautiful wood, invested with the best craftsmanship I could manage...and just learn to live with it. :D

Come to think of it, I just might!

[Stan C]

Originally posted by Meerkat:


BTW, what skill are you planning to offer in these many ports of call? There are very few skills that allow one to walk in the door (sail into the port) and immediately be welcome to work.I have worked as a stagehand in many different cities. I am not new to relocating without knowing where my next paycheck will come from.

My experience has been that to find suitable and inexpensive housing is one of the greatest difficulties in a new area.

I intend to enroll in boatbuilding school a.s.a.p. and then work as an apprentice for a few years before I begin my project.

Self built is the only way I'll ever have a new boat like this. It may turn out that I'll end up refitting an older hull to meet my desires, but I really think that plywood / epoxy composite sheathed with glass and kevlar would be the best hull ( dry inside and low maintenance ). If there are older boats like that out there in the 55-60' range I'd like to know about them.

Cold molded wood would allow for a round bottom but I believe the building process would be far more expensive and difficult, and even older hulls are likely to be very expensive.

I'm not sure what to think about strip built, except that it likely is more difficult than S&G because of the necessity of constructing a mold and dosen't have the repairability of traditional carvel planking.

The only ads I've ever seen that are along the lines I'm looking for as far as interior accomodations are those for the AMEL SUPER MARAMU, which I think are 53' ?

The BRUCE ROBERTS SPRAY designs seem interesting and I'd like to learn more about them.

As I said in a previous post I am seeking to obtain a copy of Reuel Parker's book on cold molding as I've been told that it describes easy and inexpensive building methods.

SC

[ 06-24-2005, 05:21 PM: Message edited by: Stan C ]

[Thad Van Gilder]

Stan,
I don't know what stagehands make, but you must make far more than me.
A friend of mine, Billy, Is just about to get his 63' hand motor sailor in the water. He's got a website, sailboatbilly.com, I think.

Billy bought his hull for 1 dollar, 12 years ago.

He west systemed the entire boat, replaced a plank or two, and reframed a portion of the boat.

The boat draws 4 or 5 feet, it's about 14 feet wide, and he had the 8-71 rebuilt.

The outside is awlgrip over biaxle cloth, and the inside is the same.We are talking about drums and drums of epoxy.

The interior is still in his shed.

He told me that he had over $150,000 in the boat. And he has a cheap place to build.

This is Billy's first boat. He plans to take it around the world.

Yeah, I did an estimate a few years back in my head, and figured that planking her up the right way might have cost a bit under $100,000. the know how to replank a 63 footer, however, doesn't come in a year or two of classes.

If you are interested, a near sister ship (4 feet longer) is listed in this month's woodenboat section on saving a classic.

good luck with that, by the way.
while your building your 63 footer, I'll be out sailing IVY, my 27 footer, that has the room of a 1 bedroom apartment, and cost me 5 grand and a year's labor.

-Thad
S/V IVY

[Thad Van Gilder]

by the way, I just checked defender.

They have 50 inch wide kevlar at $30 a yard.

That works out to about 247 square yards for a 60 footer or about $7,410 for one layer of kevlar.

start saving!!!!!!!!!

-Thad
S/V IVY

[Matt J.]

Stan,
I think it's a cool dream, but I think the best advice was reading "Cruising in Serrafyn" by Lin and Larry Pardey. Their arguments for go small and go now are not to be simply ignored out of hand. I'm 15+/- years your junior... and I couldn't see starting from scratch on a 60' boat with refrigeration, a/c and freezers... just from a "I don't want the maintenance and cost" standpoint... our little Rarus is small at 24', and sometimes we'd like to go a bit bigger, but... 60'? We were just out in a 70' schooner this weekend, and although the initial stability was awesome (she also draws 7'), i could not see owning and maintaining her, after building her, without whoring her out like these folks do for the day sail charter work...

Good luck, and I mean that sincerely. What a story it'd make. but, give L&L Pardey's books a shot while you're getting to school. Perhaps, with a smaller boat, you could do your entire dream and get there even sooner.

Good luck,
matt

[Thad Van Gilder]

By the way, My friend's 63 footer has more room in it than the house that my 3 brothers and I grew up in.

Do they make 1 bedroom apartments bigger out there?

-Thad

[Meerkat]

Actually, your best bet is to read all of the "Seraffyn" books! Each of them have additional supplementary appendices that are quite informative!

Check out http://landlpardey.com/

Unfortunately, it appears that "Seraffyn's Mediterranian Adventure" is out of print. I think it has the cruising survey of people, how long they've been cruising and what it's cost them. I would suggest trying to find it in a library.

In a nutshell, those who must earn their living as they go and have no outside income (trust fund, savings, etc.) do so in 30' or less boats. Also mentions, IIRC, that a 45' boat will cost ~$1,000/month in maintenence (this number is now on the order of a decade out of date...), annualized over a 5 year period (you don't spend $1,000/mo every month, but once in awhile, along comes big replacement items like sails, ground tackle, engines, etc.).

$30/yd. for kevlar is cheap compared to what sailcloth is going to cost you! :eek:

You have to ask yourself whether you want to go out and see the world or spend most of your time maintaining a huge yacht and her systems and/or working to support the yacht and not the cruising.

[ 06-07-2005, 05:06 PM: Message edited by: Meerkat ]

[WWheeler]

How about one of these? Sam Devlin Design - Gollywobbler.

http://www.devlinboat.com/gw43.gif

[mbogo]

Stan-

Sorry that you felt so shot down here. I understand where you are coming from, and I think there is a lot of good advice around - you have to look a bit for it, though.

I do like the Spray designs, and have been torn between them and a more modern hull for a few years now... Bruce Roberts does have a book called Spray, the Ultimate Cruising Boat. If you're interested in the design at all, I recommend reading this one. Lots of great info.

Since you are going to be building a custom boat, you might want to look at getting some custom plan work done. Take an existing design and work with the designer (or another Naval Architect) and make changes to the standard. I'll bet Bruce Roberts could come up with a custom wood/epoxy Spray for you of any size. It's a matter of material specs and scantlings to suit. I know he and his staff have been very helpful to me when I have called. Spending this much time and energy on a boat, you should have the thing approved by a NA to make sure it'll work.

It sounds like you will be spending lots of time in port working between trips, and this is why the size and comfort needs are high - understandable. Do remember that mooring fees go up dramatically as boat length increases, plus you might be limited to where you can tie up. There might not be as many 60' slips as there are 35' slips, etc.

Take heart - this can all be done. It's your dream, so it's up to you and your determination to make it happen!!

[Stan C]

I'm not interested in motorboats for long range cruising. I have read Sam Devlin's book, and think that I could learn much from his approach of using interior joinery to substitute for frames.

I don't make much as a stagehand which is why I'm going back to school.

60' was a guess , I really don't know that much about what can fit into what size boat. I was thinking 50' before I realized that I would hate having to go out to do laundry just as much when living on a boat as I do now. Also I really feel that all machinery should be in a walk in engine room that is sealed off from the air in the living spaces. A great deal of tankage is also a must. I welcome opinions on the size of hull required to accomodate all of this, plus 1 private cabin with large head with a real shower like in a house, another head for guests, large galley and comfortable dining area for at least 6, and seperate saloon with wood stove and fold down sea berths. I also want a nav station with full size chart table and a pilot berth within conversational distance of the helm.
MAYBE I SHOULD'VE JUST ASKED HOW BIG DOES THIS BOAT HAVE TO BE INSTEAD OF STATING A DESIRED LENGTH..

If I were to become convinced that a transom stern can be just as safe in a storm as a double ender then I would possibly give up the idea of the pointy stern and it's extra length, but wouldn't a transom complicate the build?

I have explained that I'm thinking that the hull shape can be defined with stitch & glue, and then more layers of plywood vacuum bagged onto that, followed by glass, then kevlar.

If a single layer of kevlar would add significant protection to the hull then I think it would be worth $10K. If more than one layer would be needed then it probably wouldn't be worth it.

I was thinking that the major hull maintenance would be hauling to sand and paint about every 3rd year,( more often when cruising than when working and saving ) but one of the advantages of the long level keel bottom I envision is the ability to dry out against a harbor wall for bottom painting so that might not even be necessary.

I could use homemade sails for local cruising and save the good ones for passagemaking.

I really don't understand why so many people think that the cost of building this type of craft is so outrageous. I'm the first to admit that I don't have the experience to estimate the costs, but if the hull and rig would exceed $150k then I would be suprised. The ballast keel (cast iron) would be a lot, I can't even make a guess at the cost. I always figured that the systems would be added later.

Why is that so different than aspiring to own a house? Where I live now (10 mi. south of Oakland ) NICE HOUSES COST AT LEAST 4 TIMES THAT. Around here a shack (literally) costs $150k, if you're lucky. And you can't take it with you. Now that, to me seems like a foolish way to spend money.

I am starting to believe that the objections are all coming from an entirely different philosophical viewpoint.
When I read British sailing magazines I get the idea that things don't have to be so expensive.

SC

[Thad Van Gilder]

Stan,
I agree. Things don't have to be that expensive.
But you are looking at things from a "house" standpoint, not a "boat" standpoint.

First of all, take washers and dryers. The ones that are appropriate for marine use are vastly more expensive than for a house. My parent's just bought a dryer for their house for $300. West marine has a combo washer and dryer for $1,300. After using one (they put them in 47 foot Catalina's) I can say that they fit a pair of jeans and 5 pairs of boxers and they are full. And that is being generous.

If you forget the washer and dryer, forget the nav station (Charts fit on the table just fine and you only really need a handheld GPS). Then you are thinking realistically.

Forget The full size shower, all you want is a 30 by 30 inch enclosure so that you can't fall over when the wake from a passing trawler hits the boat.

You don't need a lot of the stuff you are mentioning.

OK, an engine room is nice. I'll give you that.

And as far as general boat maintaining goes. a 60 footer will take, say 6 gallons of bottom paint per coat. 2 fresh coats a year, that's 12 gallons a year.The Decent stuff I use is 90 bucks a gallon, and that is towards the cheap side. That's a quick $1,200 a year in bottom paint, and don't forget topsides paint and varnish or whatnot.

I'm no expert, but I would figure on two layers of kevlar to do much of anything.

Oh yeah, the biggest differnce between owning a house and a yacht is that house values nearly always go up, and yacht values nearly always go down. Especially a home made boat to an unusual design.

-Thad

PS, do you know what dacron sailcloth is going for, in order to make sails yourself? I would not think that materials alone would be less than $5,000 to $10,000 for a suit of sails

[ 06-08-2005, 10:38 AM: Message edited by: Thad Van Gilder ]

[Wild Dingo]

Man you fellas mean I missed whangdangdoodle of a bunfight? Flamin eck! Buggar why do I miss all the flamin fun around here?

Okay havin stood firmly in the same shoes Stans standin in a few years back I know where hes comin from!! And I say buggar the bastards and GO FOR YOUR DREAM STAN!!

Alrighty now thats over reality check time... so having come from wanting to build a 50ft Coaster Schooner and being lamblasted to hell and back by some members of this board at the time (who shall remain nameless)

I really think you should maybe start looking around 30ft as your optimum especially for single handing for any distance or length of time... seems to me that this would be the optimal sized boat for that purpose but it also avails you enough room to take a shipmate or shipmatess along for the journey with room for some privacy if needed.

Now not saying a 60fter isnt out of your ability or skill level either now or in the future sometime just sayin that 30ft for one person is ample

RodB and I have had an on again off again boatlust affair with the "Susan" design by the designer of the coaster schooner Murray Peterson which at 28ft is a heck of a chunck of boat!! Seriously!!!

While my mind initially tended toward a multihull someone once said why build two (or three) hulls when you can build one? and it made sence after a time although the Searunner trimarran and the Wharram Tiki catamaran really do somethin to me emotions... So if thats your penchant there are acres of multihull designs out there for your choosing

But for a mono... Have a gander at Murray Petersons "Susan" mate although designed as a schooner her sail plan has recently been redrawn by Murrays son Bill (Like his old man also a designer and caretaker of the designs) seaworthy beautiful plans cost $800US and are some 40pages in total and castings are available at a similar price

I lost my old computer with Bills email address in it along with my study plans and all notes from him (among other bloody things! Thank gawd I hadnt sent for the actual plans!! mind you his along with everyone elses address I had went the same way so either way I aint much help gettin you in touch :rolleyes: ) in the storm we recently got decimated by so I will leave it to one of our shipmates here to post it

But Stan whatever you decide decide for yourself and aim high you only ever get one go round in this lifetime mate so make it as flamin good as it can be!

[RodB]

Stan,

Take a look at this site on building a Terrapin 42, one of Reuel Parker's larger arc bottom designs... easy construction, reduced cost, there is a larger version I think.

http://boatbuilding.com/article.php/buildingterrapin42

Edited 6/13
Schooner "Susan" available from

peterson@lincoln.midcoast.com

I agree with Shane, I long thought a 40 foot cruiser was the minimum acceptable size but have realized a 28-30 footer in reality would be just fine and much more realistic.

Shane,
I think the gaff/cutter is a little less appealing aesthetically than the original schooner rig... and I plan to look at "Susan" in August.

RB

[ 06-13-2005, 02:29 PM: Message edited by: RodB ]

[Art Read]

"We were just out in a 70' schooner this weekend"

"WOODWIND" out of Annapolis by any chance? I almost went to work for them right after she was built. Then his daughter got her ticket. Easy come, easy go! ;)

[Matt J.]

Art, yes, sorry - missed your post. It was WOODWIND, out of Annapolis. You'd have had a nice boat under you, though I suspect non-stop 2 hour motor sails might have bored even the most smitten captain. Don't get me wrong, I'd do it, but I'm probably nuts, and I could get used to that kind of boredom (I think).

[Wild Dingo]

... and I plan to look at "Susan" in August. AND!!! you will remember to post pics MANY MANY pics for yer ol mate downunder RIGHT?????

I agree the schooner rig is just perfect for her

Shane

[RodB]

Shane,

I haven't been an ad photographer for nothing. I plan on taking many photos and will send you a CD.

Rod

[ 06-13-2005, 11:55 PM: Message edited by: RodB ]

[Wild Dingo]

You bloody little bobby dazzler Rod!!! :cool:

Stan get a good long look at Susan (about $800US for the plans) from the other threads and then if your still lusting for a bigger one have a gander at the Coaster Schooner by Murray Peterson plans for the Coaster If memory serves me rightly start around $2500US for Coaster 1 and about $3500 or so for Coaster 2 there is then "Fritha" who is a larger version and is about 4 or $5000US I think man this memory is a buggar! Fritha last I heard was for sale over there in the US somewhere probably sold by now but a fine boat built in Kiwiland with many many sea miles under her bum

But a truely inspiring wooden craft of the finest kind... but be warned dreaming about the Coaster can cause some folks to become demented chooks rapidly and you will end up ruffling feathers and gettin blocks chucked at you from all quaters even the most unexpected ones!

Plan prices have been discussed throughout the forum at one time or another...

Interestingly Fame a 40ft Schooner plans by BB Crowninshield are available from the Peabody Museum in Boston for about $90 If memory serves and theyve been around since 1910 and Fame herself still sails... The cost of plans is an interesting topic but worth the effort to find the discussions with the imput from naval designers and boat designers from around the world giving their reasoning for the costs

However... having said all that some plan prices are downright scarey!! But look at it pragmatically and they make sence... Fame has just 4 pages while Susan has 40... Fame is buildable you will have to work your way through them though as they were more than likely designed with a professional builder who knew exactly what they would be doing and therefore didnt need all the fruit and extras to be spelt out... whereas Susan was designed for both the professional builder and the home builder in mind and therefore covers EVERYTHING you could possibly need to know to build the boat how the designer designed it... then wander over to Paul Gartsides web site and check his prices and then take a close look at the skill level he feels is needed to accomplish a build you will be surprised at the detail effort and work involved in some of the simplest designs let alone a massive build

Pay the money you have to to get the one you desire... and mate I used to fret over the cost of plans!!! I dont now having had a go at designing and redesigning several boats those blokes that spend hours days weeks and months sweating out the finer details to make sure as they can about even the minutest detail of their designs deserve every cent they get

Go for broke mate!! Uck the naysayers and achieve your dream but try to look at it from as many angles as you can first single handing anything over 30ft is doable with HUGE effort and shouldnt be contemplated out of hand but after massive contemplation and care for the details it would be bloody hard work!! and Id suggest less than enjoyable most of the time but doable... theres also the construction itself a massive undertaking in effort let alone financial cost but doable look at Stormy Mayo hes still at it 15 years after he began but hes doin it

Meanwhile 30ft is doable without the effort being an effort and you get to enjoy it sooner!!

Think about it mate... then do it!! :cool:

[RodB]

Stan,

Heres a couple of posts that you should find quite interesting.

30 ft boats... (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=2&t=002670&p=)

Modifying carvel for modern composite const. (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=2&t=002807&p=)

RB

[ 06-15-2005, 02:01 PM: Message edited by: RodB ]

[RodB]

Shane,
I was reading an article by Roger Taylor on a Buzzards Bay 25 that he got to sail for awhile and he related an incident where he was outrun by the Schooner "Susan"... I thought that interesting.
RB

[Stan C]

After having been distracted for a couple of weeks I've come back and reread this thread.

Being completely new to online discussion and this site I never could've imagined that my posting of my ideas of the ideal permanent livaboard cruiser would lead to anything like the responses that were posted. I never wanted to be the center of so much attention and/or arguement. It's been interesting, even the criticisms, and I've learned much. My harshest critic- whose apology I do fully accept, in case he's reading this- mentioned the loss of GRANA, which I did read about and therefore I got a short but very serious lesson on the grave importance of proper design of the point of attachment of the anchor rode to the boat and that is just one more little bit of info that I am glad to have learned.

What I was hoping for was a response from a genuine naval architect who would point out glaring flaws in my concept which were immediately obvious to someone who designs boats for a living.

The reason that I came looking for comments was that after thinking about what I wanted for about half a year I just couldn't get any farther on my very limited knowledge.

What I got was mostly opinions stating that the size I envisioned was completely unrealistic in every way, especially money-wise.

But then along comes a guy (George) who built a 57 footer as his very first boat, and in the same time frame that I was expecting. I really can't add anything to that.

Another guy (L.W. Baxter) said that if I did it the way George Buehler advocates then I might only spend about 50k.
I read Beuhler's book and while I like his overall approach, some things just don't sound right to me and using ordinary construction grade lumber is one of them. So a compromise is most likely.

I want to clarify my position here. I will first attend boatbuilding school and then work as an apprentice for a while before I can even think about getting started on a large project. It is entirely possible that I will eventually settle on a refit instead of new construction when I do get started.

Most certainly the boat I dream about is to be my ultimate achievement, not my first boat. I expect that my first cruiser will be something that I find real cheap and it's length will be between 24' and 34'. I will learn a lot while owning a boat like that, but my opinion will not change from that which I've developed at boat shows- I would feel terribly cramped living in so little space for years at a time. Furthermore the essential qualities that I've described in my ideal of a livaboard such as a dedicated engine room, laundry facilities, and spacious shower are so much a part of the concept that it wouldn't even exist without them. Quite simply, MOST OF THE TIME I WOULD BE LIVING IN PORT AND COMMUTING TO A JOB AND THE ACCOMODATIONS WOULD NEED TO TAKE THIS INTO ACCOUNT. There are ways to address most any design conflict. Take the shower for example- I will want numerous permanent grab rails built in but also think that some larger, removable padded rails might be added to make the space safer when not in a slip, and probably a bench as well.

I've learned a lot from this forum and will continue to learn a lot more as I go along in trying to develop a career working on boats.

Nearly everyone here says that 30' is the ideal, I had thought that about 37'-40' was more common for serious cruising- this came from reading magazines. I trust the opinions here on that one. It could be that I will not end up with a boat over 50' with all of the features I presently desire, but if that is so then I know that I also will not have just one home that I can take anywhere and be really satisfied with, and that is what the dream is really all about.

One of the recurring opinions has been that I should read the writings of the Pardey's-the SERAFFYN series, and so this I will do.
The best part about reading for me is that I never consider it to be work, rather just the opposite. Learning is merely a bonus.

There are a great number of books that I feel the need to obtain and I hope to have most of them by the time I complete the boatbuilding program which I plan to attend. As I consider my present condition it seems to me that all is well.

SC

[RodB]

Commenting on boat size... Years ago I had the chance to cruise in several fiberglass boats such as a Valiant 40. a Morgan 35, an Islander 40, and a Gulfstar 45 to name a few...and had pretty much decided that the minimum sized boat that I would want to live and cruise on was about 40 feet. Having raced on J-24's, Catalina 22's, Thistles, etc. I felt I had a pretty good fix on an acceptable size of boat that I wanted.

As the years passed by I caught the boatbuilding fever (and never lost my love of sailing) and I began to find out first hand the actual cost of building a boat. You have to consider all factors such as cost of keeping her in a slip, yearly maintenance, etc...
When you finally get down to actually planning such a project, experience like this allows for one to become much more realistic. Even the designers from the past like Atkin and Herreshoff made comments on this subject...and mostly they pushed for smaller designs that folks could more afford, would complete and finally of course they would actually use them more... I believe Chapelle made a comment on the common incidence of a sailor getting too large of a boat that drained the owner financially and that finally lead to the owner losing or selling his boat because of buying too large.

All in all, this boils down to doing a realistic evaluation of your needs and of course your budget (which is usually not in line with most folks appetite).

RB

[mmd]

Stan, I have refrained from commenting here because I knew that many others would, and that there would be lots of opinions flying about, and that some would not be very pleasant. I hate to see that happen, but it seems to be the tone of the times.

One of the challenges of boat design is to whittle the "wish list" down to a practical size in both physical size and in complexity, eschewing the superfluous and retaining the essential. Boats, especially live-aboard boats, when done well are significantly expensive objects. One must plan well and carefully so as to spend sufficiently to ensure efficiency and safety, but not so much as to jeapardize the project's completion.

It is also, from a landsman's perspective, easy to think of the enclosed spaces of a yacht in the same mind-set as those of a house - special purpose rooms (e.g., laundry) or in terms of "open space" in rooms. Again, strip the answers down to their bare essentials - smaller is better, multiple utilization of interior volumes, etc. Even when pared down to what you consider minimum volume, the sum of the spaces you are envisioning will turn out to be quite large.

What is the ideal size for a live-aboard yacht? As I have said so many times here before, it depends. It depends on the depth of your financial resources, your desired lifestyle, the level of quality that you want in a yacht, etc. etc. I know of a couple who have lived happily for years on a twenty-eight-foot yacht. God bless 'em, but I couldn't stand living in the equivalent of a camper-trailer for all that time. I know another couple who have raised two children and several pets in very amenable conditions on a fifty-five-foot catamaran with oodles of space, but the initial cost was rather high (somewhere around $200,000 USD). The best way to find out what is best for you is to spend time on various boats to physically experience the spaces, not just try to imagine them in your mind's eye. Hang out at your local marinas and volunteer to be the extra hand on day-sails, deliveries, anything to get sea time. Once you see how they work, you will be in better position to decide what is right for you.

Bear in mind this statistic: a very high percentage (something like seventy or eighty percent) of home-built yachts fail to be completed if they take longer than two years to complete, and builder burn-out, not finances, is usually the cause. Yes, all you others out there who are about to refute this statement with positive examples, I know that there are many folks who have built boats that took them even decades to complete, but they are the glowing exceptions who deserve to be lionized, not the unnoticed many who quietly fade into the background and take up other dreams.

Stan, keep your dream alive for your big boat, but look very carefully at how those others did it. Did they have advantages that you don't have, such as easy access to cheap materials or labout? Did they have to pay premium rent on the land they built on? Did they have a job or finances that allowed them to work more than evenings and weekends on their boat? Make sure that you strip away all romantic notions about the task ahead and evaluate every decision - including size and features - very critically, and you will be well on your way to achieving your goal. But if you base decisions on warm, fuzzy romanticism, it will bite you in the ass before you know what happened. It would be a shame to realize too late that you have bitten off more than you can chew.

A forumite who posts here occasionally built a beautiful thirty-eight-foot Alden ketch that he cruises far and often. His comment on the task was, "Building a yacht this size isn't all that difficult - it's just 5,000 hours of head-down, straight-ahead, hard work."

[Stan C]

Thanks mmd for your comments.

It dosen't suprise me to see the figure of 70-80% of home builders fail to complete projects over 2 years in length, I'd guess the figures are quite high for failures of shorter projects as well. But I wonder how many of those failed home builds were attempted at the homes of people who build boats as a career? Probably not so many, I would think.
I say again that I won't begin this project til I have at least a couple of years of professional experience. If for no other reason I'll need that much time to save up just for the first load of materials. If it really is too big as I imagine it now I should have figured that out by then.

I am looking to gain experience aboard sailing yachts any way I can, hopefully when I relocate to Maine in a month or so it will be easier.

I am aware that I really don't yet have the experience to consider the finer points of interior layout but I am pretty sure that I won't give up my belief that a walk in engine room that also contains all of the other machinery on board and is vented seperately from the living spaces is essential to long term comfort when living in port. I believe this is so important that I have no problem with giving up the luxurious aft cabin that I see in most large sailboats. The other basic requirements are a large efficient galley, a seperate dining area, a saloon to relax in, a shower space that is like that in a small house- which provides relief after a hard day at work instead of the inconvenience of trying to fit into a small space, and a private cabin forward. Oh yeah, gotta have a washer and dryer. Just gotta have em, or else life revolves around those weekly trips to the laundry. No pun intended.

As for the opinion that I should give up the nav station and rely on GPS, I wonder if I who have never been out of sight of land should even try to explain to an experienced sailor the utter foolishness of trusting the safety of an expensive yacht and her crew to a fragile electronic device that runs on batteries.

One thing that I don't know much about and which has worried me from the start is slip fees. I figure this will prompt more derisive laughter - my origonal reason for keeping the L.O.A. to 60' max (including bowsprit, if any) was because I thought it might cost a lot more to berth a boat over 60'. I never wanted the expense and difficulty of a really big boat. I want the smallest boat that will meet all of my needs. 60' was a guess. I do believe that long and narrow is a better boat than short and wide with the same displacement, and I think displacement = cost.

I followed up on the link posted a while back in this thread and read about the 67 year old guy who built Reuel Parker's Terrapin 42' in his yard. I've been convinced, my idea of a very large S&G boat is not the best way for me to go. I read the first 2 1/2 chapters of Parker's book online (that's all there was) and am very impressed by the efficiency of his construction details. Doug fir tongue and groove strip planking covered in plywood for the topsides and double diagonal crossplanked plywood(slightly arced) on the bottom. No frames! His estimates for materials costs were surely dated, but they relieved a lot of my concerns.
Now I am very anxious to see a newer edition of the book, I certainly hope that the guy who said on the earlier thread that he was rewriting it was correct.

Perhaps the truest thing that can be said about my origonal posting and all that has followed is that it is all premature. I expect to start attending classes at The Boat School in Calais, ME in about 7 weeks. Maybe I'll be ready to deal with these major design and size problems in 3 years or so. I am glad that I've done as much thinking about it as I have because I really want to get it right.

All of the feedback has been thought provoking and I'll never be sorry for any of it. Thanks to all who've offered opinions and advice.

SC

[ 07-07-2005, 05:41 PM: Message edited by: Stan C ]

[Stan C]

I just decided to add my latest thoughts on hull and interior design since reading the first couple of chapters in "THE NEW COLD MOLDED BOAT BUILDING" by Reuel Parker.

As I mentioned in my posting last night, I gave up on S&G and now believe that Parker's methods must be the best for a large self-built craft. I think that there probably isn't a quicker or less expensive method that I could use.

I just want to outline the differences as I see them between my concept and his standard designs.

Who knows, maybe if I'm really, really lucky he will read this and some of my ideas will end up in a new design, and I won't have to pay for a custom design.

So here are my ideas:

No centerboard- leeboards instead. The hull will be stronger, simpler, and easier to build, and the plywood double-diagonal cross planking on the bottom will be uninterrupted. As this is to be a passagemaker with extreme seaworthiness I just wouldn't have enough confidence in a hull with a hole that big below the waterline. And leeboards can be repaired while afloat.

A long ballast keel that the boat can safely rest on in primitive conditions when drying out with the tide against pilings or a harbor wall for inspection, painting, or repair.

Bilges. I want them. Walking on the hull with no frames or floors is an elegant way to gain headroom and it does appeal to me on many levels, just not in this boat. If a wave dumps a couple of hundred gallons down an open hatch I'd want that water to have a place to settle to beneath the cabin sole while it was being pumped out. This would protect fabrics, cushions, books, etc. from being soaked from water sloshing back and forth as the boat rocks. That's how I see it anyway. I almost wish someone could talk me out of this one.

Freeboard. Lots of it. No trunk cabin, yet plenty of standing headroom throughout- except maybe in the engine room. The deck will be mostly flush, except for bulwarks, which are a must for safety.

Ketch rig. Designed for single or short- handed passagemaking.

Canoe stern for severe weather, like a VALIANT or a PACIFIC SEACRAFT design. If that can't be done in plywood then a double- ender.

Small portlights in the hull. All hatches in the deck to be man sized (2-1/2' ), and no more than necessary.

Scantlings for a world cruiser. Hurricanes and severe groundings, while they are to be avoided whenever possible, must be assumed to be a possibility.

L.O.A.: 53 - 57'. Narrow beam, maybe 13' max. If a true double-ender length may need to be 60', but not more.

Dedicated pilot berth; space on aft deck for liferaft; nav station. Engine room to contain all machinery and be sealed from living space and vented seperately.

Ground tackle. Not to be treated as an afterthought. Lockers and rollers to allow for 2 anchors foreward, and 2 aft. Again, hurricanes must be assumed.

I really put all of this down for myself, to organize my thoughts. I know it's getting redundant and I apologise for that.
So that's about it.

SC

[ 07-07-2005, 05:50 PM: Message edited by: Stan C ]