Jolly-Boat Plans?

[Sakari Aaltonen]

Would anyone know of plans for something like the Jolly Boat (http://www.iwm.org.uk/online/anglosaxon/jollyboat.htm) ?

This seems to be a classic type of boat, There are drawings (but no offsets) in Chapman's 1768 book, "Architectura Navalis Mercatoria", say.

Iain Oughtred's Tammie Norrie is very similar, but has a centerboard, whereas the jolly boat or small ship's boat I have in mind would have a full-length keel. Paul Gartside's #130 has a daggerboard.

[Grumblepunk]

Feel free to slap me up'side the head and yell "newb!" at me, but I think that you'll be hard pressed to find a plan without a center-board/dagger-board specified. I only say this because I have been on a similar hunt and finally just decided to say to hell with it and build the boat without one. Likely to cause all sorts of bad performance issues, when compared to boats with the boards, though. C'est la vie.

That said, your taste in boats is superb!

[Greg H]

I saw a plan by Laurent Giles, for a Jolly Boat. I don't remember if it had a board or not, and their website seems to be under construction. I does have an e-mail contact though.
http://www.laurentgiles.co.uk/index.html
g'luck

[Don Maurer]

Jollyboats were mostly rowed. They probably only sailed downwind, so they wouldn't need much of a keel. If you are only going to sail occassionally, why not build the boat without a centerboard and use a leeboard for the times you want to sail?

[Sakari Aaltonen]

Originally posted by Greg H:
I saw a plan by Laurent Giles, for a Jolly Boat. I don't remember if it had a board or not, and their website seems to be under construction.Thanks, but... There is an article on the Laurent Giles Jolly Boat in Water Craft no.21, and with a bowsprit, two masts and a centerboard it's not what I have in mind.

Neither is Uffa Fox's Jolly Boat - "an incredibly fast planing dinghy" in the words of the UF website.

[Sakari Aaltonen]

Originally posted by Don Maurer:
Jollyboats were mostly rowed. They probably only sailed downwind, so they wouldn't need much of a keel.But Arthur Ransome's Swallow (http://home.earthlink.net/~swier/sanda.html) was, I think, very much like a (ship's) jolly boat, and did sail windward - with its full-length keel.

[Venchka]

OK, killing two birds with one stone here...

THE NORTHWEST SCHOOL of WOODEN BOATBUILDING
251 Otto Street, Port Townsend, WA 98368

Phone: 360-385-4948 Fax: 360-385-5089

E-mail info@nwboatschool.org

Sometime in the past few years, I have seen a Jolly Boat mentioned as having been built at the school.

They also do a really nice faering.

http://www.nwboatschool.org/workshops/faering_2.jpg

Since the boat in question is of recent vintage and since it lived at Mystic Seaport, perhaps Ben Fuller can shed light on the lines for the exact boat you desire. It's possible that Mystic has the lines for boat.

Here's a thought: if the lines don't exist, go to the museum and take them off.

Here's another thought: Armed with cash, any small boat designer worthy of the title could produce plans for the lifeboat based on the information at hand.

Wayne

[ 05-07-2004, 04:35 PM: Message edited by: Venchka ]

[boatlover]

Sakari:

Which Plate in Chapman, and which design number are you thinking of ?

Chapman has a scale of feet for each design. If you print the design at 100% (original size) from the high-resolution files from the museum, you should be able to get a decent set of initial entries for a table fo offsets. For further control, the length and breadth of each design are given in the Index (Plate 62.)

Some scantlings you could get directly from the drawings, and the rest from other sources.

There are 3 - maybe 4 - of the high resolution files (.tif) that are corrupted at the present time, but I haven't looked at the corresponding
low-resolution (Plate ?.gif) files to see if they include any of the small boats.

Ed R

[Sakari Aaltonen]

Originally posted by boatlover:

Which Plate in Chapman, and which design number are you thinking of ?

Chapman has a scale of feet for each design. If you print the design at 100% (original size) from the high-resolution files from the museum, you should be able to get a decent set of initial entries for a table fo offsets.
Ed RPlates 20 and 25, the small boats numbered 5 (20') through 9 (12'). What I have done is to save the high-resolution image files as PostScript, then add a grid to the PS file and print the result (with the original drawing and the grid superposed)

I have no.8 (14') worked out fairly well. Still, I would prefer a current design. But are there any? If no, why?

[Venchka]

Originally posted by Sakari Aaltonen:
...I have no.8 (14') worked out fairly well. Still, I would prefer a current design. But are there any? If no, why?Evolution. Progress. Technology. Take your pick. You are free to build the old designs in the old manner. The market place says that most folks prefer something newer, different.

[michaelc]

I may have this wrong, but I believe a jolly boat is what was traditionally called a ship's yawl (no not the sailing variety). If this is what you areafter, there are a plethora of designs out there by the likes of Pete Culler (he built 2 very nice ones for America), Herreshoff and the like or you can go the traditional route as there are plans for the likes of the Bounty's yawl (remember Capt. Bligh's journey;)) ), Most Tall ship plans include ship's boat plans, the Royal Navy has a classic which some have used in the Glen Raid, and a recent, about 2 yrs ago was built at Mystic for one of the tall ships. ;)

[Sakari Aaltonen]

Originally posted by michaelc:
...there are a plethora of designs out there by the likes of Pete Culler (he built 2 very nice ones for America), Herreshoff and the like or you can go the traditional route as there are plans for the likes of the Bounty's yawl (remember Capt. Bligh's journey;)) ), Most Tall ship plans include ship's boat plans, the Royal Navy has a classic which some have used in the Glen Raid, and a recent, about 2 yrs ago was built at Mystic for one of the tall ships. ;) Thanks, but... Where are Culler's plans available? The Bounty boat, at 23', is too big - but who is selling the plans? Who is selling plans for the "Royal Navy classic"? What size is it?

[Don Maurer]

Try Selway-Fisher.
http://www.selway-fisher.com/OtherDB.htm

Paul Fisher has several designs similar to what you are looking for and is quite willing to modify his designs to fit your needs. I really like the Frigate's boat. It's a litle bigger than a jolly boat, but it sure would be fun to terrorize the jetskiers with :D

[ 05-10-2004, 11:31 AM: Message edited by: Don Maurer ]

[Sakari Aaltonen]

Originally posted by Don Maurer:
... the Frigate's boat. It's a litle bigger than a jolly boat, but it sure would be fun to terrorize the jetskiers with :D Thank you, but I think it's more than just a little bigger - in fact, it's even bigger than the Bounty *launch* that carried 19 men thousands of miles. Also, even unmodified, the plans are surprisingly expensive - almost 400USD.

In any case, while the Frigate's boat looks OK (but big), I do find many other Selway-Fisher designs incredibly ugly. I don't know whether I could bear to buy plans from someone who draws boats like these...

[Wiley Baggins]

Look for a copy of The Boats of Men-of-War; W. E. May, Simon Stephens ( description at Amazon.com (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1557501904/qid%3D1084209239/sr%3D11-1/ref%3Dsr%5F11%5F1/002-7458977-9885649) ).

[michaelc]

"Thanks, but... Where are Culler's plans available? The Bounty boat, at 23', is too big - but who is selling the plans? Who is selling plans for the "Royal Navy classic"? What size is it"

Mystic Seaport Ship Plans sell all of Pete Culler's plans. IIf you have access to his book Skiffs and Schooners (i think that's the name), you'll find some photos and some line drawings of these craft, but you'll find the complete works at Mystic at bargain prices. The National Maritime Museum (Greenwich, England) offers plans of the Bounty yawl as well as most Ships' boats including those of the Royal Navy. I got a set at their museum store a few years ago, but they are very nice to deal with and will photocopy plans for you for the cost of reproduction. Just check their website. The RN yawl boat I had referred to is about 21 feet which may be larger than you like. If you are interested I will try to track down the exact name and nfo.

[Corso]

the link to this site was in grumblapunk's thread of a few days ago.
would it help?
http://www.luttmerworks.com/boata.html#blue

[Corso]

Grumblepunk sorry for the typo in your name (read: dont do these things while at work)

[Sakari Aaltonen]

MYSTIC SEAPORT
Didn't find Culler plans on the website (only saw Crosby, Chamberlain, and Cleveland.) Sent an email. Culler's books seem to be out of print.

GREENWICH
Didn't find any plans on the website. Sent an email.

BOATS OF MEN-OF-WAR
*Very* interesting.

LUTTMER
"Done" boats only? Or plans? Can't make out whether
the Jolly Boat has a full-length keel - the requirement here. Who is Greg Foster?

[michaelc]

Culler's plans are in the Ship's Plans Division. They are not on the website as they are still being cataloged, however an email to the plans division (address is on the web site) and they will promptly oblige you. You might try Abe's or Barnes & Noble for out of print books and check the local library even if via interlibrary loan. The NMM in Greenwich should nswer you soon or at least that's been my experience. Greg Foster is involved in the historical plan recreation of many craft and is located in the Gulf Islands of British Columbia (I believe Gumblepunk spoke with him last week-see the Scottish boat Sgoth thread started by him).

[Doug Hamilton]

Sakari:

Plans for a clinker-built jolly boat of the 1840's designed by a naval architect, Steve Killing of Midland, Ontario were commissioned about 5 or 6 years ago by the boat-builder for the City of Toronto, Peter Code.

The boat has a rudder mounted on a transom, a hog (keelson) and a full length 6" deep, vertical keel without a centre-board.

Dimensions are: 15'-9 x 5'-2 at the sheer, 4'-6 at the WL. Draught is 10". Displacement is 890 lb.

Upon request, Peter Code will send you a picture of the finished boat over the internet and he will sell a set of his plans.
.
Contact pcode@toronto.ca

[boatlover]

Sakari:

From all that you have said before, I have been wondering if you aren't starting from the wrong end of this project. If I read you correctly, you want a modern boat, that has the appearance of an historic one. OK.

Many of the historic small craft were probably made of "shorts and narrows" - leftovers from the building of larger ships. You are going to start from scratch - unless you too have a bunch of leftovers from larger projects.

Chapmans "Yawle #8" is - in the English Index - 13'7" in length, and 5'1" beam. Heavy cutwater, full length keel, and a raking transom, no deck, no centerboard. ( The last is no surprise in a book from 1768.)

John Welsfords "Houdini" design is 13'2" long, 5'10" wide. No heavy cutwater, skeg in back, partial deck, centerboard, and less raked transom.

Build it as an open boat. Add a "fancy piece" of a couple of inches to the bow for the cutwater - with the sculptured top - fair a few inch deep keel piece into the skeg, rake the transom back a little bit, and you got your "yawle" profile, and the difference in LOA is gone. ( A quick comparison says that the sheer lines are similar.) Keep the centerboard or not, your choice. (I'd keep it.)

If you think Houdini is a bit broad for rowing, you could slim her down a bit. With Welsfords lapped ply on stringers, the planking is almost self-lofting. (The wine glass/heart shape transom might be a bit of real bother.)

You would end up with a good approximation to what you appear to want, in a package that weighs in at around 100 kilos.

Check Duckworks for a sail/profile plan and deck plan. Also pictures, and a write-up. The full plans cost $85US.

It even has a yawl rig - lost the "e" there somehow.

Ed R

[Sakari Aaltonen]

Originally posted by boatlover:
Sakari:

From all that you have said before, I have been wondering if you aren't starting from the wrong end of this project. If I read you correctly, you want a modern boat, that has the appearance of an historic one.
..................
Ed RWell, not exactly. I just happen to like the shape of these boats with full-length keels (18th century Chapman yawles, 20th century SS Anglo Saxon jolly-boat, 20th century Arthur Ransome Swallow.) They evidently are "historic", but that is not important to me. It's just something I can't help.

On the other hand, I certainly would like to understand why this boat type is "historic", even - "obsolete"? It's an old type, yes, but are not catamarans, say, an even older type?

[Sakari Aaltonen]

Originally posted by Doug Hamilton:
Sakari:

Upon request, Peter Code will send you a picture of the finished boat over the internet and he will sell a set of his plans.
Turns out there is a photo at Traditional Boatbuilding School (http://www.woodenboatbuilding.ca)

[mattb]

Boats become obsolete because they are missing some vital characteristic that prevents them from being useful or enjoyable.

A boat with a shallow full length keel is going to be a pig to windward, if you can call 2 knots and 20 degrees of leeway to windward. And the only reason the boats ever got anywhere was because they had a large crew of sailors to row. No matter how romantic a boat may be, that kind of performance is going to get real un-useful and real un-enjoyable real fast. Note that the pictured boat mentioned is for sale...

On the other hand catamerans (not my favorites by the way :) are very useful and enjoyable still because of their speed.

Personally I favor the traditional Dutch fishing vessels with high aspect gaff mains and leeboards :)

[Sakari Aaltonen]

Originally posted by mattb:

A boat with a shallow full length keel is going to be a pig to windward, if you can call 2 knots and 20 degrees of leeway to windward. And the only reason the boats ever got anywhere was because they had a large crew of sailors to row.I have no personal experience of a full-length keel. But Arthur Ransome, who wrote the Swallows and Amazons books and who was by all accounts an enthusiastic and knowledgeable sailor, picked such a keel for Swallow (Amazon has a centerboard.) These keels seem to have been used quite a lot in England, at least - look, for instance, at the Lune Pilots made by Character Boats (http://www.characterboats.co.uk)

[Sakari Aaltonen]

Originally posted by michaelc:
Culler's plans are in the Ship's Plans Division. They are not on the website as they are still being cataloged, however an email to the plans division (address is on the web site) and they will promptly oblige you. Yes, they obliged by suggesting Culler's 16' 4" yawlboat for the schooner AMERICA II. However, this boat has a centerboard.

[B. Burnside]

Being the owner of a sailboat without an engine, living in an area with frequent calms, I have an idea why Jolly Boat designs are not plentiful on the market these days. Ship's boats were used by crews of people, so there would be more oarsmen than passengers, loads of manpower to get the little darlings on and off their davits, etc. If you have a gang of folk to row her, you should have a blast.

By the way, my heavy little boat is a 1947 Jubilee class "yacht" (18 ft), built heavier than drawn, made in Hong Kong along with 6 others for people at the HK Yacht Club. I am highly motivated by her rowing qualities to be a good light air sailor.

[Venchka]

How many times have we heard, read or been told that the old boats were "rowed upwind and sailed downwind"? Whaleboats, dories, etc. had sails for auxiliary power. Same as a modern outboard, but used at different times. An oar for steering.

Evolution has turned these craft into boats which are a pleasure to SAIL. Sail upwind. Sail downwind. Sail when there is too much wind. Sail when there is no wind. Nicely balanced helm. Well behaved. Well mannered. Easily trailered if that's what you want.

I suppose the old boats were nice in their own way.

Good luck.

Oh, have you researched the Noman's Land boats?

R. H. Baker Boat Works (http://www.by-the-sea.com/bakerboatworks/)

Enjoy.

[Alan D. Hyde]

Relatively small naval square-riggers had crews of two or three hundred men.

How many crew will you have for your boat?

How many oarsmen?

Alan

http://www.bawra.org/Images/Bawra%20top%20page.jpg

[ 05-14-2004, 12:51 PM: Message edited by: Alan D. Hyde ]

[Sakari Aaltonen]

I'm not a naval architect, or historian for that matter, but I keep thinking of how jolly boats and the other ship's boats would have been used in times past. I think they were used *roughly*. Also, they were expected to function as lifeboats, should the ship come to grief. Then, they were expected to stand rough seas, well, anything short of a hurricane, probably.

So they would have been very stout, which means, I think, that they were also very heavy. Because manpower was available, weight was not an issue. Strength was.

If a jolly boat (built with the old scantlings) really is a pig to row or sail, I wonder whether it is because the hull is bad. Or is it the scantlings? That is, the weight?

[Tom Galyen]

Sorry to get in here so late, but I just saw this thread. I happen to own a "Jolly Boat" That was built by the Northwest School of Woodenboatbuilding in Port Townsend, WA. Mine is 16' long with a 5 1/2' beam, and draws about 18". It rows easily by just me but can have 6 oarsmen. It is very well built and made for any waters. It has two masts with a Dipping Lug Sail on the foremast and a Standing Lug on the Main. Although they no longer build these boats as part of their course they can and will build on if you commision them to. If you talk to them kindly maybe they can supply plans.

I don't know where the thread is but I have posted a photo of the boat on this forum. Feel free to contact me about more info.

Tom G.

[boatlover]

Ironmule and Sakari;

I looked at Chapman again today, and went to Plate 62 (which I orginally cited as the Index - my bad.) Interesting that Chapman's "yawle" looks a lot like - for want of a better term - a "bald-headed cutter." Single mast at about 40% of the length, carryiing a sprit main and a sizeable bowsprit with a single headsail.

None of Chapmans rigs bear a strong resemblance to a present day "yawl." IMO.

It was interesting that the mainmast of the Dutch Hoy had a scarfed topmast, while the mizzen had a a fidded topmast.

Ed R

[Sakari Aaltonen]

Originally posted by boatlover:

None of Chapmans rigs bear a strong resemblance to a present day "yawl." IMO.
Ed REven nowadays, "yawl" or its language-specific equivalent ("julle"/"jolla"/"jolle"/"youle") sometimes refers to the rig, sometimes, to the size of the boat. Chapman seems to use the latter meaning, that is, a yawle is a smallish boat, maybe a rowboat - it does not have to have a rig at all.

[Wiley Baggins]

Below is a link to an article (that I've posted previously) on a small (smaller than what you want) jolly boat. No plans, just a nice story.

With respect to larger craft, there was an article in "Ash Breeze," The journal of the Traditional Small Craft Association, covering jolly boats with a lines plan. I believe that the article was written by Greg Foster. I believe that he may have authored an additional, longer article for "Sea History" magazine. Both of these articles were written several years ago.

The Egg and Us (http://www.sweetwaters.ca/sweetwaters_memories-the%20egg.htm)

[ 05-18-2004, 07:16 PM: Message edited by: Wiley Baggins ]

[Wiley Baggins]

Here is a link (http://www.australianheritagefleet.com.au/SmlBt/RepBoat.html) to the Austalian Heritage Fleet website with a couple of leads for you. Check out "My Jolly Boat" and "Tom Thumb II."

[Venchka]

Gotcha! Bump!

[Sakari Aaltonen]

Originally posted by Doug Hamilton:
Sakari:

Plans for a clinker-built jolly boat of the 1840's designed by a naval architect, Steve Killing of Midland, Ontario were commissioned about 5 or 6 years ago (...)The boat has a rudder mounted on a transom, a hog (keelson) and a full length 6" deep, vertical keel without a centre-board.
Steve Killing graciously sent me a small-scale drawing of the boat. It shows a centerboard, which I want to do without.

[Venchka]

Will the construction allow for the centerboard to be added later if you discover that the boat requires it to perform properly?

[Sakari Aaltonen]

Originally posted by Venchka:
Will the construction allow for the centerboard to be added later if you discover that the boat requires it to perform properly?Perhaps - but I would really like a design that nobody ever thought of adding a centerboard to... I may end up using the offsets from the Chapman yawle.

OK - this is not a boat that I *must* have; I just find the concept intriguing. A type of vessel is used for hundreds of years. Then, it suddenly becomes obsolete, with nobody wanting anything to do with it, except as a historic artefact. I don't understand it.

[Venchka]

Have a look (http://media5.hypernet.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=009534)

[Wild Dingo]

Don Thanks for this one!!

http://www.selway-fisher.com/Frigated1.gif

Gotta love it!! :cool: talk about shades of John Welsfords Swiftsure!! ;)

[Venchka]

So salty she makes your eyes rust!

[WWheeler]

Plans for the Atlantic Challenge boats (38 feet) are available too. Our group is planning to build one in the next year. See www.atlanticchallenge.ca. (http://www.atlanticchallenge.ca.)

(Lines were drawn by Steve Killing as well.)

[ 05-25-2004, 04:34 PM: Message edited by: WWheeler ]

[Venchka]

6 more pieces in the puzzle...

San Francisco Museum Boats (http://www.nps.gov/safr/local/6small.html)

Hope this helps.

Wayne

[Venchka]

Thanks, Jeff!

What about the Sgoth thread, Scottish fishing boats, Grumblepunk started it. :confused:

[Tom Galyen]

I see someone has resurrected this thread again, so I will again put in my 2 cents.

As I have mentioned before I own a 16' replica "Jolly Boat" that was built by the Northwest School of Woodenboat Building in 1994. The boat has a Lug Ketch rig, with a "Dipping Lug" main and a "Standing Lug" mizzen. It has a full length keel of about 4-6" and was fitted with leeboards by the school to try to improve her windward performance. She rows easily with just one set of oars, and sails like a boat of that design. She tacks like a sedate old lady taking her time to come about. Everything the boat does is slow and sedate, but you had better be Johnny on the spot and be prepared for your planned manuever, because she will not help you much and needs a constant hand on the tiller and lines.

Last Saturday I had her out with my crew, Charlie Rhoden, and in 8-12mph of wind with gusts to about 18-20mph we easily got 4 - 5.6mph and for a short while did 6mph. Not bad for a 16' 18th century boat helmed by a beggining sailor!.

If I can contribute any more info please let me know.

Tom G.

[Wiley Baggins]

Addendum:

"Ash Breeze" Vol 14 No. 1-Winter 1992: "Jolly Boats-An Unexpected Surge of Interest," by Gregory Foster

"Sea History" No. 61 Spring 1992 "Northwest Maritime Revival: Celebrating the Role of Small Craft" by Gregory Foster

Also, there was an article in "Nautical Research Journal," Vol. 39 by Erik A.R. Ronnberg entitled "Boston Pilot Canoes Revisited" which might be of interest. Finally, Baker Boat Works (http://www.by-the-sea.com/bakerboatworks/) has plans for a 16'1" yawl boat (Gray Boat-Plan No. 85) and a 13'3" yawl boat (Yawl Boat #16-Plan No. 77) that might be of interest.

[ 06-30-2004, 05:21 PM: Message edited by: Wiley Baggins ]

[John E Hardiman]

index recovery (to be sure)