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View Full Version : let us fight the War of 1812 again and maybe I'll learn something



Phillip Allen
06-11-2011, 09:32 PM
watched a history channel documentary the other night

seanz
06-11-2011, 09:33 PM
Napoleon had it coming.

Phillip Allen
06-11-2011, 09:34 PM
it's hard to understand the mind-set of such a man

seanz
06-11-2011, 09:37 PM
Great piece of music too. I've heard it performed with howitzers. Inside a building. Impressive.

Phillip Allen
06-11-2011, 09:38 PM
Get piece of music too. I've heard it performed with howitzers. Inside a building. Impressive.

I heard it once from about 30' behind one of the guns... a quarter mile away were a bunch with concussion grenades...impressive

Phillip Allen
06-11-2011, 09:40 PM
I think it pretty impressive that a 100 pound president would declare war on a 1000 ship navy and less than 10 war ships of his own

oznabrag
06-11-2011, 09:50 PM
let us fight the War of 1812 again and maybe I'll learn something

You didn't learn anything the first time...

Captain Intrepid
06-11-2011, 09:50 PM
I think it pretty impressive that a 100 pound president would declare war on a 1000 ship navy and less than 10 war ships of his own

It did help slightly that the other navy was fighting the 1800s equivalent of WWII Germany.

Phillip Allen
06-11-2011, 09:51 PM
It did help slightly that the other navy was fighting the 1800s equivalent of WWII Germany.

certainly

Phillip Allen
06-11-2011, 09:53 PM
what I understood the other night was that it was a series of blunders by both nations

Paul Pless
06-11-2011, 10:04 PM
we had a few exceptional frigates, one was legendary. . .

seanz
06-11-2011, 10:39 PM
what I understood the other night was that it was a series of blunders by both nations


Just that war then? Because so often wars are based on good decisions and best intentions from both sides?









Where is that sarcasm smilie when I need it the most?
:D

wardd
06-12-2011, 10:27 AM
It did help slightly that the other navy was fighting the 1800s equivalent of WWII Germany.

curious as to what you mean

Phillip Allen
06-12-2011, 10:51 AM
curious as to what you mean

I think he means that Napoleon had the British military tied up...

oznabrag
06-12-2011, 10:51 AM
curious as to what you mean

Wow.

There was this dude named Napolean Bonaparte...

Phillip Allen
06-12-2011, 10:53 AM
come on guys... I am just interested in the history and anecdotes relating to it

The program I watched mentioned HMS Surprise as being involved but the captain's name was unfamiliar

S.V. Airlie
06-12-2011, 10:56 AM
I think many of the British ships were on blockade duty around continental Europe. Bonaparte was really not completely out of the picture until 1815 except for a short stint on Elba..You know Waterloo!! in 1815! I do not know exactly how many ships out of that 1000 British ships you mentioned actually patrolled the US shoreline...

wardd
06-12-2011, 10:57 AM
ok..

Phillip Allen
06-12-2011, 11:03 AM
I think many of the British ships were on blockade duty around continental Europe. Bonaparte was really not completely out of the picture until 1815 except for a short stint on Elba..You know Waterloo!! in 1815! I do not know exactly how many ships out of that 1000 British ships you mentioned actually patrolled the US shoreline...

the number 1000 is something said in the program... heretofore I understood the Brits to have 600 warships at the time. I imagine they were needed in the channel, the med, the Dardanelles and other places closer to the REAL threat... the US certainly wasn't much of a threat. I suspect that is what prompted us to attack Canada first... to get a reaction out of Britain who might simply have ignored us and continued kidnapping and occasionally hanging (murder of course) our sailors

S.V. Airlie
06-12-2011, 11:23 AM
Phillip.. I did not see the documentary. I am thinking that most of the attacks on Canada were via naval ships on Lake Erie...There was or is a well known battle on that body of water. As far as land attacks, don't know of one. Fill me in!

Captain Intrepid
06-12-2011, 11:25 AM
One of the biggest blunders/victories of the war was probably the Surrender of Detroit, where Sir Isaac Brock and Tecumseh bluffed Hull into surrendering to a force half the size of his without a single fatality on their part.

Paul Pless
06-12-2011, 11:27 AM
Constitution vs. Guerriere

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/10/USS_Constitution_v_HMS_Guerriere.jpg

S.V. Airlie
06-12-2011, 11:27 AM
A agree Capt. I was actually trying to recall any battle fought on Canadian territory that Phillip was referring to..Then again I am not sure where the border was before the 49th parallel went into effect. Detroit might have fallen into the Canadian sphere of influence.

S.V. Airlie
06-12-2011, 11:29 AM
Nice painting but that was not a sea battle with anyone from Canada or Lake Erie.

Paul Pless
06-12-2011, 11:30 AM
Nice painting but that was not a sea battle with anyone from Canada or Lake Erie.indeed not ;)


A frigate sighted on 19 August was determined to be HMS Guerriere (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Guerriere_%281806%29), with the words "Not The Little Belt"[Note 7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Constitution#cite_note-94) painted on one of her topsails.[89] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Constitution#cite_note-95) Guerriere opened fire upon entering range of Constitution, but Hull held his ship's guns in check until the two warships were a mere 25 yards (23 m) apart, at which point he ordered a full double-loaded broadside of grape (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grape_shot) and round shot.[90] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Constitution#cite_note-Jennings_224-96) Using his heavier broadsides and his ship's sailing ability, Hull had managed to surprise the British and to their astonishment, many of their shot rebounded harmlessly off Constitution's hull. A sailor reportedly exclaimed "Huzzah! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huzzah) her sides are made of iron!" and Constitution acquired the nickname "Old Ironsides".[91] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Constitution#cite_note-97)Over the course of the engagement, the ships collided, and at one point they rotated together counter-clockwise while Constitution continued firing broadsides. Guerriere's bowsprit became entangled in Constitution's rigging. When the two ships pulled apart, the force of the extracting bowsprit sent shockwaves through Guerriere's rigging. Her foremast soon collapsed and it took the mainmast down with it shortly afterward.[92] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Constitution#cite_note-98) Guerriere was now a dismasted, unmanageable hulk, with close to a third of her crew wounded or killed, while Constitution remained largely intact.[93] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Constitution#cite_note-99) The British surrendered.
The battle left Guerriere so badly damaged that she was not worth towing to port. The next morning, after transferring the British prisoners onto the Constitution, Hull ordered Guerriere burned.[94] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Constitution#cite_note-TeddyIII-100) Arriving back in Boston on 30 August, Hull and his crew found that news of their victory had spread like wildfire, and they were hailed as heroes.[95] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Constitution#cite_note-101)

Dan McCosh
06-12-2011, 11:35 AM
Around here, we were on the losing side.

Ron Williamson
06-12-2011, 11:43 AM
This seems like a good link
http://www.visit1812.com/history/
R

Keith Wilson
06-12-2011, 11:49 AM
I wouldn't think a ship of that time would set courses and royals in battle, certainly not in the sort of breeze in that painting. Usually just topsails IIRC, although I've very far from an expert.

Good book:

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51me7O18QzL._SS500_.jpg

Captain Intrepid
06-12-2011, 11:50 AM
Another one of the ironies coming from that war is the slogan "Don't give up the ship!" That was the last command of James Lawrence to his crew... just before they gave up the ship.

Phillip Allen
06-12-2011, 11:51 AM
Another one of the ironies coming from that war is the slogan "Don't give up the ship!" That was the last command of James Lawrence to his crew... just before they gave up the ship.

yep... I knew that one, (Premble, wasn't it)

S.V. Airlie
06-12-2011, 11:54 AM
It seems it used to be in vogue that people commission paintings of war scenes and request that certain politically correct aspects, that would normally be included in the painting, be removed or added. I would not be surprised that historic naval battles that are painted on commission tweak history a bit in the final product at the direction of the payer.

Captain Intrepid
06-12-2011, 11:56 AM
Premble? Not sure I'm aware of that.


On the Canadian side, there was a huge blunder on Lake Erie I think, where the ground forced didn't attack, leaving the Naval forces without support. It could have been the other way around with the navy not supporting the ground troops, it's been a while since I've done much reading on the conflict.

Phillip Allen
06-12-2011, 12:15 PM
Premble? Not sure I'm aware of that.


On the Canadian side, there was a huge blunder on Lake Erie I think, where the ground forced didn't attack, leaving the Naval forces without support. It could have been the other way around with the navy not supporting the ground troops, it's been a while since I've done much reading on the conflict.
other way around, I think... if not Premble (I'm not confusing it with Prebble, an American officer) but it was Philip something... not important anyway

Captain Intrepid
06-12-2011, 12:21 PM
Oh yeah, Master of the HMS Shannon was Philip Broke.

Phillip Allen
06-12-2011, 12:31 PM
This seems like a good link
http://www.visit1812.com/history/
R

I looked through and didn't see mention of the secession of a couple of New England states

Phillip Allen
06-12-2011, 12:32 PM
Oh yeah, Master of the HMS Shannon was Philip Broke.

thanks