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Paul Pless
06-10-2011, 08:22 PM
gonna go watch this guy play with his toys tomorrow

looks cool



http://www.nesys.org/photos/SteamShow/Mason/dm_ma03.jpg

http://www.nesys.org/photos/SteamShow/Mason/dm_ma07.jpg
http://michigansteamengineandthreshersclub.com/msetc_016.htmhttp://michigansteamengineandthreshersclub.com/msetc_016.htm

Canoez
06-10-2011, 08:29 PM
Is the guy's name Mike Mulligan, by any chance?

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_RUhAah0AKMM/TUA9LRbXBHI/AAAAAAAAAC0/hqjgvTS_nLs/s1600/mike-mulligan.jpg

Paul Pless
06-10-2011, 08:33 PM
i've had that book since i was a small child :)

Canoez
06-10-2011, 08:34 PM
Ditto.

J.L.L.
06-10-2011, 09:23 PM
That book was one of my favorites. Looks like a great way to spend a day.

leikec
06-10-2011, 10:02 PM
This is more to my taste...but I like any steam-powered machinery.

http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/3820/schallangerkirkwoodmo.jpg


Jeff C

dhic001
06-10-2011, 10:50 PM
Looks seriously cool. Might play steam myself tomorrow, go for a test run and try the newly repitched propellor, only 47 inches of pitch now rather than 58.
Daniel

David G
06-10-2011, 11:31 PM
You should come out to Oregon some year for the Great Oregon Steam-up. More steam gear than you can shake a stick at. One of the Coots is on staff, and I'm sure would be happy to bend your ear on the topic for as long as you could stand it.

http://www.antiquepowerland.com/info/annual.html

http://images.search.yahoo.com/search/images;_ylt=A0oGdXJI7_JNkjMAZ5VXNyoA?ei=UTF-8&p=the%20great%20oregon%20steam%20up&fr2=tab-web&fr=yfp-t-376-s

http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j80/manxmann/Wilesco/Wilesco001.jpg


http://trevorheath.com/livesteaming/photos/SP-3212.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_sA3Drf3pgYs/Sm1TJjhLPII/AAAAAAAAEG8/iJn9NOuhqXw/s400/DSC_0001.JPG

Cuyahoga Chuck
06-11-2011, 12:17 AM
About a decade ago a guy with a steam tractor was driving his toy down the highway going to the Medina County Fairgrounds when a cop stopped him. The cop let the guy go so the guy hussled along to get off the highway. Unfortunately he let his water level get too low and the tractor blew up just as he pulled into the fairgrounds. Three died.
Steam power isn't you friend if you can't consentrate.

bobbys
06-11-2011, 12:24 AM
My friend bought a old Farm that had a old Steam Donkey for logging on it, I helped him salvage it, I wish i bought it.

Like the one here.

http://www.camp18restaurant.com/loggingmuseum.html

Paul Pless
06-11-2011, 02:49 AM
About a decade ago a guy with a steam tractor was driving his toy down the highway going to the Medina County Fairgrounds when a cop stopped him. The cop let the guy go so the guy hussled along to get off the highway. Unfortunately he let his water level get too low and the tractor blew up just as he pulled into the fairgrounds. Three died.
Steam power isn't you friend if you can't consentrate.I remember that. It actually killed five people, among them were a few (including the owner) that were among the top antique steam enthusiasts in the country. It took a while to figure out what exactly had happened because the best guys to study the accident died in it.

Peerie Maa
06-11-2011, 05:27 AM
http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j80/manxmann/Wilesco/Wilesco001.jpg


I love the way that that Wilesco traction engine has been customised. Given me some ideas for those long winter evenings.

Peerie Maa
06-11-2011, 05:29 AM
About a decade ago a guy with a steam tractor was driving his toy down the highway going to the Medina County Fairgrounds when a cop stopped him. The cop let the guy go so the guy hussled along to get off the highway. Unfortunately he let his water level get too low and the tractor blew up just as he pulled into the fairgrounds. Three died.
Steam power isn't you friend if you can't consentrate.

Most traction engine and road roller boilers have a fusible plug in the crown of the firebox to prevent such an occurrence. A tragedy.

Bill R
06-11-2011, 06:34 AM
I love steam. Someday I would love to build a replica Victorian steam launch.

Milo Christensen
06-11-2011, 10:10 PM
pictures from that new camera are now overdue

Paul Pless
06-12-2011, 08:03 AM
http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg239/PaulPless/DSC_1608.jpg

http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg239/PaulPless/DSC_1621.jpg

http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg239/PaulPless/DSC_1538.jpg

Paul Pless
06-12-2011, 08:05 AM
http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg239/PaulPless/DSC_1561.jpg

http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg239/PaulPless/DSC_1490.jpg

Paul Pless
06-12-2011, 08:06 AM
i dedicate this photo to wardd

http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg239/PaulPless/DSC_1498.jpg

Paul Pless
06-12-2011, 08:07 AM
Important!!!

http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg239/PaulPless/DSC_1493.jpg

Paul Pless
06-12-2011, 08:09 AM
this is identical to my first tractor

http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg239/PaulPless/DSC_1513.jpg

Peerie Maa
06-12-2011, 08:40 AM
OK, a technical question.
These traction engines all have their cylinder and valve gear side mounted, requiring a steam dome.



http://www.nesys.org/photos/SteamShow/Mason/dm_ma07.jpg


http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg239/PaulPless/DSC_1608.jpg

http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg239/PaulPless/DSC_1621.jpg




http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg239/PaulPless/DSC_1561.jpg



British engines nearly all have their cylinders and valve gear top mounted so that the valve gear casting acts as the steam dome like this http://i408.photobucket.com/albums/pp164/peerie_maa/Muncaster%20May%2010/DSC01153.jpg

So are there any US engines built the British way, or are they all as pictured above?

Ed Harrow
06-12-2011, 09:33 AM
http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg239/PaulPless/DSC_1561.jpg

Sweet, but I confess I first read the sign as 'Palin' relieving. ;)

Ed Harrow
06-12-2011, 09:38 AM
Not steam, but then not all that Paul's posted are steam:

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g65/wlgtoo/AshandCo/DSC_0154-1.jpg

Note the false advertising!

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g65/wlgtoo/AshandCo/DSC_0158-1.jpg

There were no brakes on the front wheels! I guess their argument was with all-the-time four-wheel drive the front wheels were 'braked' by the rear brakes. ;)

Phillip Allen
06-12-2011, 09:43 AM
http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg239/PaulPless/DSC_1561.jpg

Sweet, but I confess I first read the sign as 'Palin' relieving. ;)

I see from the pic above that there are some who keep their balls on top instead of under the ... ah... bumper (governor :))

SchoonerRat
06-12-2011, 10:08 AM
http://www.girr.org/girr/lals/lals.html

Los Angeles Live Steamers is no longer all steam, but there are enough holdouts that they have kept the name.

I haven't been there for over a decade, but I used to make a yearly pilgrimage. They used to give free rides to the public on weekends.

Bill R
06-12-2011, 10:09 AM
Thanks Paul.

McMike
06-12-2011, 10:42 AM
Is the guy's name Mike Mulligan, by any chance?

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_RUhAah0AKMM/TUA9LRbXBHI/AAAAAAAAAC0/hqjgvTS_nLs/s1600/mike-mulligan.jpg


I loved that book and have not seen it in in 30 years!!! Wow, talk about the way back machine.

Michael D. Storey
06-12-2011, 12:02 PM
This is more to my taste...but I like any steam-powered machinery.

http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/3820/schallangerkirkwoodmo.jpg


Jeff C

Nothin like it. When i was younger, I preferred firing a stream locomotive to driving.

I do consider it a significant change for modern Maleness, when the great hot rigid steel changed from being in front of a man to being behind him, when the cab on a locomotive changed from being in the back on steam to being in front, on diesels. But that is another day. I have to vacuum out Judith's car. After I finish the ironing.

ishmael
06-12-2011, 02:59 PM
Steam was on it's way down when I was a kid. I think I saw some of the last steam locomotives to run through Cleveland, but it may have been Pop's pictures.

Dirty beasts, spewing smoke, ash, and cinders.

I'll bet, but don't know for sure, that a coal-fired plant is making the electricity I use. It's a problem. How are we going to make this steam? You can do it in various ways, none of them completly palitable: wood, coal, oil, nuclear. Throw solar in there as an interesting green alternative, but I don't think it's anywehere near there yet.

OK, so wood is out, there's a lot of coal around, and maybe we could learn to burn it more cleanly, oil is too dependent on dicey sources, and nuclear isn't going to pass political muster. So...what are we going to burn to make steam?

wardd
06-12-2011, 03:07 PM
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/eb/Qualicum_Beach_Station_3.jpg/800px-Qualicum_Beach_Station_3.jpg

in the 50s there were still steam local commuter trains here then it became what was called budd cars

oznabrag
06-12-2011, 03:16 PM
Steam was on it's way down when I was a kid. I think I saw some of the last steam locamotives to run through Cleveland, but it may have been Pop's pictures.

Dirty beasts, spewing smoke, ash, and cinders.

I'll bet, but don't know for sure, that a coal-fired plant is making the electricity I use. It's a problem. How are we going to make this steam? You can do it in various ways, none of them completly palitable: wood, coal, oil, nuclear. Throw solar in there as an interesting green alternative, but I don't think it's anywehere near there yet.

OK, so wood is out, there's a lot of coal around, and maybe we could learn to burn it more cleanly, oil is too dependent on dicey sources, and nuclear isn't going to pass political muster. So...what are we going to burn to make steam?


Well, Jack, the Mother Earth News published plans and photos of a working, Solar-powered steam generator thirty years ago. Its parabolic reflector (recycled TV dish) tracked the Sun under passive power, and it made enough juice to power a 15A/120V table saw.

One principal problem with implementing 'alternative energy' is that US citizens are lazy. the other principal problem is that power companies are greedy.

Decentralizing power generation means that each of us must learn how to maintain those systems, and it means that the profits from power generation flow into millions of pockets, instead of just a few.

Michael D. Storey
06-12-2011, 03:40 PM
Suggest that the biggest problem is two-fold. #1, fossils pack millions of years of sun into a relatively convenient punch. That is the main reason why solar does not produce what coal does. It is not intensified enough. If it were, we would all be dead. Second, the search circulates around the quest for another silver bullet, instead of an array of energy sources that meet various needs at various times in local situations.

oznabrag
06-12-2011, 04:01 PM
Suggest that the biggest problem is two-fold. #1, fossils pack millions of years of sun into a relatively convenient punch. That is the main reason why solar does not produce what coal does. It is not intensified enough. If it were, we would all be dead. Second, the search circulates around the quest for another silver bullet, instead of an array of energy sources that meet various needs at various times in local situations.

Well done, sir.

wardd
06-12-2011, 04:03 PM
also infrastructure is in place for fossil fuel

ahp
06-12-2011, 04:12 PM
Bud Liners were not steam. I sometimes rode them into Boston from Andover in 1967 to 71.

wardd
06-12-2011, 04:21 PM
Bud Liners were not steam. I sometimes rode them into Boston from Andover in 1967 to 71.

didn't say they were, said steam was replaced by them

Michael D. Storey
06-12-2011, 05:33 PM
Bud Liners were not steam. I sometimes rode them into Boston from Andover in 1967 to 71.
That would be Budd Liners

Michael D. Storey
06-12-2011, 05:35 PM
also infrastructure is in place for fossil fuel
Infrastructure is in place for wind & solar electrical generation. Either use what you produce or sell it.

wardd
06-12-2011, 05:42 PM
Infrastructure is in place for wind & solar electrical generation. Either use what you produce or sell it.

the grid would have to be built to use them

Michael D. Storey
06-12-2011, 05:45 PM
Well, the grid is in place all ready here in Maryland

Paul Pless
06-12-2011, 05:57 PM
saw this at the show as well, makes me thankful for my stihl's
http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg239/PaulPless/DSC_1601.jpg

ahp
06-12-2011, 07:13 PM
Sorry Wardd, I wasn't pay attention.

Tobago
06-12-2011, 07:36 PM
He'll, you can walk home from a steam tractor. Anyone else steam a 600 pound plant at sea or go racing around on a FRAM can?

Ted

Scarred pit snipe

Bob Cleek
06-12-2011, 08:41 PM
OK, so wood is out, there's a lot of coal around, and maybe we could learn to burn it more cleanly, oil is too dependent on dicey sources, and nuclear isn't going to pass political muster. So...what are we going to burn to make steam?

If you're talking about steam launches, for instance, used crankcase oil or used french fry oil work just fine and are free energy sources. The french fryer grease smells nicer than the crankcase oil, but there's something a lot more manly about the recycled crankcase oil's aroma.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/dd/Steam_launch_%27Norma%27,_Wellington_NZ.jpg

http://www.boat-links.com/PT/PT2003/VitalSpark-1.jpg

http://www.pearlengine.com/images/petwin.gif

Paul Pless
06-12-2011, 08:45 PM
Those Pearl 'kits' appear to be some of the better machined modern steam engine replicas available at a decent price. I've seen others that were pretty damn rough. . .

http://www.pearlengine.com/images/MC_3_of_3.JPG
http://www.pearlengine.com/images/MC_2_of_3.JPG
http://www.pearlengine.com/images/MC_1of_3.JPG
http://www.pearlengine.com/images/bronze_twin_001A.JPG
http://www.pearlengine.com/images/bronze_twin_002A.JPG

wardd
06-12-2011, 08:47 PM
and boiler explosions separate the men from the boys

Dan McCosh
06-12-2011, 08:49 PM
External combustion is the way to go. Burn anything.

Michael D. Storey
06-12-2011, 09:20 PM
Dirty beasts, spewing smoke, ash, and cinders.

I'll bet, but don't know for sure, that a coal-fired plant is making the electricity I use. It's a problem. How are we going to make this steam? You can do it in various ways, none of them completly palitable: wood, coal, oil, nuclear. Throw solar in there as an interesting green alternative, but I don't think it's anywehere near there yet.

OK, so wood is out, there's a lot of coal around, and maybe we could learn to burn it more cleanly, oil is too dependent on dicey sources, and nuclear isn't going to pass political muster. So...what are we going to burn to make steam?

There are some, not many, wood-fired steam plants in the states, even in New England, where the annual need for wood in acres is 1/80 of their acreage, so, in theory anyway, assuming that some bug doesn't kill all the trees or that there is never a fire, they will never run out of wood. Sustainable. The ash can go back into the ground, etc, a lifetime of employment, etc, what could be better? I'm sure that there is something better, but that is a pretty good start.
A partial solution. But so is some water, some wind and some solar, depending on the location and need. Add to that conservation to buy us some time, and we stand to make a dent in our energy crisis.

Ed Harrow
06-12-2011, 10:01 PM
http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg239/PaulPless/DSC_1498.jpg

This is fabulous! Belongs alongside:

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g65/wlgtoo/Troll-O-Meter.gif

and deserves an

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g65/wlgtoo/20r1h0n.jpg

Thanks for the photos Paul - I know there's a bit of work in that.

For some years, starting when I was ten, I used to ride my bike to the Dedham Water Works (10 miles, round trip) just to sit and watch (and listen to) the steam engines. There were some diesels that were brought on line if the demand was high - I didn't hang around then.

As for external combustion, think Stirling cycle.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stirling_engine

Pretty good for a Scottish Minister in the early 1800's.

Vince Brennan
06-12-2011, 10:41 PM
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/eb/Qualicum_Beach_Station_3.jpg/800px-Qualicum_Beach_Station_3.jpg

in the 50s there were still steam local commuter trains here then it became what was called budd cars


Wow! Pictures of the originals: Budd RDC (Rail Diesel Cars).

Budd and the Reading RR put my Dad thru Drexel U nite school for Mech. Engineering in the '40's so he could work on the design for these. He knew just what was needed for his little part of the project, but no-one would accept it without letters after his name. They fixed that.

dhic001
06-13-2011, 02:10 AM
If you're talking about steam launches, for instance, used crankcase oil or used french fry oil work just fine and are free energy sources. The french fryer grease smells nicer than the crankcase oil, but there's something a lot more manly about the recycled crankcase oil's aroma.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/dd/Steam_launch_%27Norma%27,_Wellington_NZ.jpg


Rather ironically the steamer in that picture was a coal burner, and hasn't ever run on oil. Now she has a diseasil after her boiler suffered corrosion. its been kept for possible future repair and reinstallation, but she's diesel now.

Vegetable oil burns more cleanly than used engine opil, and doesn't have the nasties that engine oil has. that said, if it made the difference between getting home or not, I'd burn it.

Daniel

Bob Cleek
06-13-2011, 01:23 PM
Rather ironically the steamer in that picture was a coal burner, and hasn't ever run on oil. Now she has a diseasil after her boiler suffered corrosion. its been kept for possible future repair and reinstallation, but she's diesel now.

Vegetable oil burns more cleanly than used engine opil, and doesn't have the nasties that engine oil has. that said, if it made the difference between getting home or not, I'd burn it.

Daniel

I didn't know whether she was burning coal or oil, but from the smoke I should have guessed coal, since any steamboatman that had a boat that nice would be tending his oil burner so as not to be spewing black smoke! I posted the pic because she is one of my favorites. I fantasize about building a nice cabin steam launch and she is a particularly pretty one. Sad to hear she's been converted to diesel. Boilers are expensive, though, so I can understand. (Everybody seems to focus on the engines, but it's the boilers that really define the steam plant and that often comprise the better part of the overall cost.)

Please pass my thanks to the Kiwis for doing all they have to preserve pleasure boat steam!

blacksmith
06-13-2011, 06:30 PM
Google "The Great Dotset Steam Fair"

Bob Cleek
06-13-2011, 07:13 PM
Those Pearl 'kits' appear to be some of the better machined modern steam engine replicas available at a decent price. I've seen others that were pretty damn rough. . .

http://www.pearlengine.com/images/MC_3_of_3.JPG
http://www.pearlengine.com/images/MC_2_of_3.JPG
http://www.pearlengine.com/images/MC_1of_3.JPG
http://www.pearlengine.com/images/bronze_twin_001A.JPG
http://www.pearlengine.com/images/bronze_twin_002A.JPG

They do look nice, don't they? The inverted configuration with the wishbone connecting rods makes for quite interesting motion when operating. Their machined kits do look quite well done. You may be comparing their "machined kits" with other makers' "casting kits." Pearl offers a "casting kit" as well, for less money, of course. What you are looking at in the pictures are the machined castings of a "machined kit." The "castings kit" will look considerably "rougher," since its parts haven't been machined at all.

Bob Cleek
06-13-2011, 07:19 PM
and boiler explosions separate the men from the boys

I don't know why the myth of "boiler explosions" continues to circulate. Yes, an improperly operated boiler can explode. This is particularly true of 100 year old boilers pushed to their limits by yahoos showing off their "barn find" steam tractors, the boilers of which far exceed the size of anything you'd find in a pleasure steam boat. Even at that, boiler explosions are an extremely rare occurrence in this day and age. (Your average steam launch boiler is built and tested to 300# pressure, operates at around 100# pressure, and the safety valve will release pressure at anything over 125#.) The risk of an exploding boiler is negated by properly installed and maintained safety valves. A safety valve prevents a boiler from holding pressure beyond, on average, half of its designed and tested pressure. Far, far more people have come to grief over internal combustion engine fires and fuel tank explosions than ever did over boilers. The small steam launch boiler is no more "dangerous" than your home hot water heater and contains, at most, about the same pressure as your portable home shop air compressor. Neither of those household appliances "separate the men from the boys," do they?

LeeG
06-13-2011, 07:34 PM
http://ironhorsey.files.wordpress.com/2010/08/skunk45.jpg

one of my best long bike rides started on the Skunk in Ft. Bragg to Willits then I rode around Clear Lake through the valley and up to Tahoe.

Dan McCosh
06-13-2011, 07:44 PM
I don't know why the myth of "boiler explosions" continues to circulate. Yes, an improperly operated boiler can explode. This is particularly true of 100 year old boilers pushed to their limits by yahoos showing off their "barn find" steam tractors, the boilers of which far exceed the size of anything you'd find in a pleasure steam boat. Even at that, boiler explosions are an extremely rare occurrence in this day and age. (Your average steam launch boiler is built and tested to 300# pressure, operates at around 100# pressure, and the safety valve will release pressure at anything over 125#.) The risk of an exploding boiler is negated by properly installed and maintained safety valves. A safety valve prevents a boiler from holding pressure beyond, on average, half of its designed and tested pressure. Far, far more people have come to grief over internal combustion engine fires and fuel tank explosions than ever did over boilers. The small steam launch boiler is no more "dangerous" than your home hot water heater and contains, at most, about the same pressure as your portable home shop air compressor. Neither of those household appliances "separate the men from the boys," do they? Lots of states do require a license to operate a steam engine. Small-engine explosions prompted these regulations to be adopted, which was one thing that promoted the development of the naptha marine engine. Not that they can't be operated safely, but they are serious. Not steam, but I seem to remember a spectator was killed by an explosion of an agricultural engine at one of these events a couple of years ago.

Paul Pless
06-13-2011, 07:46 PM
one of my best long bike rides started on the Skunk in Ft. Bragg to Willits then I rode around Clear Lake through the valley and up to Tahoe.ft bragg to tahoe, that's what 1,800 miles or so?

barryhill
06-14-2011, 08:22 PM
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5032/5834085331_b70f64b4a8.jpg

Great thread! Dragged myself out of lurking to find this photo from the Town and Country Parade, Jackson,MN a few years back. 1/5 scale working model Case steam tractor built by the Thurmer Bros. My grandfather, a cousin, threshed with these guys. He operated back then and I rode with him in this for parades when I was about 10. Was invited aboard after taking this and got to steer a couple blocks. 2005 I think. Lotta years between rides. Bobby, one of the brothers, behind his grandson in the photo.

Bob Cleek
06-14-2011, 10:12 PM
Lots of states do require a license to operate a steam engine. Small-engine explosions prompted these regulations to be adopted, which was one thing that promoted the development of the naptha marine engine. Not that they can't be operated safely, but they are serious. Not steam, but I seem to remember a spectator was killed by an explosion of an agricultural engine at one of these events a couple of years ago.

I don't doubt that many states do require a license to operate some steam engines. Indeed, stationary steam engineers require licenses to operate boilers under many circumstances. (e.g.: http://www.seattle.gov/dpd/cms/groups/pan/@pan/@enforce/documents/web_informational/dpdp_017006.pdf) However, while I may stand corrected, I don't believe that states have jurisdiction over steam powered vessels, at least on waters under the jurisdiction of the USCG. Local licensing regulations seem to exempt any boiler otherwise covered by federal regulation. Coast Guard regulations do NOT require a licensed engineer to operate any steam boat less than forty feet long. This rather idiotic regulation was enacted a 150 years ago when they first required licensed engineers aboard larger steam vessels and continues in effect today. Obviously, the length of the vessel has little to do with the safety of the boiler's operation and only approximates the relative size of the boilers involved. I suspect they just didn't want to have to inspect so many vessels and exempted the smaller ones. Over forty feet and you don't steam up without a USCG steam licensed engineer aboard. Getting a steamer over 40' tested and certified by the USCG is quite an undertaking, so I've heard. Under 40' and you don't need no steenking licenses!

As for boiler safety, keep in mind that a water tube boiler is much safer than a fire tube boiler. In the WT boiler, only a small amount of water is boiled in copper pipes. If one blows, the steam and eventual water douse the fire and the whole mess is contained in the boiler housing. With a FT boiler, you're heating a whole pot of water and generating high pressure within the boiler case itself. A pipe inside a housing blowing is one thing and a whole iron boiler blowing is quite another!

Yep, some guys did get killed at a tractor show a few years ago. Sure bet it was a FT boiler on an old piece of farm machinery and it was due to operator error, even if that error only extended to running an old worn out boiler without proper certification and testing. Antiques are like that. You can't replace a boiler or an old tractor like you can on a steam launch. Many, many times the number of boaters (numerically and proportionately) have been killed by exploding gasoline fumes and diesel fires aboard than have ever died from boiler explosions aboard small steam launches.

dhic001
06-15-2011, 04:05 AM
As for boiler safety, keep in mind that a water tube boiler is much safer than a fire tube boiler. In the WT boiler, only a small amount of water is boiled in copper pipes. If one blows, the steam and eventual water douse the fire and the whole mess is contained in the boiler housing. With a FT boiler, you're heating a whole pot of water and generating high pressure within the boiler case itself. A pipe inside a housing blowing is one thing and a whole iron boiler blowing is quite another!

Yep, some guys did get killed at a tractor show a few years ago. Sure bet it was a FT boiler on an old piece of farm machinery and it was due to operator error, even if that error only extended to running an old worn out boiler without proper certification and testing. Antiques are like that. You can't replace a boiler or an old tractor like you can on a steam launch. Many, many times the number of boaters (numerically and proportionately) have been killed by exploding gasoline fumes and diesel fires aboard than have ever died from boiler explosions aboard small steam launches.

I'm going to make some comments here about some of your points here Bob. You state that water tube boilers are safer, and this seems to be the view held by many proponents of WT boilers, but I disagree, In the large sizes where we talk about scotch boilers (FT) or locomotive types, this is true, as against a verticle firetube and a similar powered WT there is very little difference. On a verticle the tube will blow before the tubeplate or barrel does, thus putting out the fire. Suree it won't be a pleasant experience, but it is unlikely to kill you. The other issue is that many watertubes run at much higher pressure than firetubes, so the forces involved can be greater. Either way a properly maintained VFT or WT boiler that is run dry will most likely survive with only tube damage. Not so with a scotch marine or a locomotive type where the firebox crown will most likely be damaged.

The traction engine that blew up a few years ago was due to a combination of errors, but most importantly, the boiler was in a very poor state. The copper firebox was almost paper thin, and the fusible plug was either incorrectly made or not present (can't remember the details now). As a result, when exposed to the full force of the fire, the copper completely gave way, resulting in the huge explosion. Under most juristictions, that boiler would have been condemned by the boiler inspector, and most sensible operators wouldn't have gone near it. Sadly that state didn't require boiler inspections, and obviously no one was monitoring the state of the boiler.

On a more positive note, went for a run in Zeltic this evening, first run since the prop was repitched, and all boy can she move now. Had a very pleasant time charging around at a good old pace. Will have to try her with the GPS soon, see what she actually can do.



I didn't know whether she was burning coal or oil, but from the smoke I should have guessed coal, since any steamboatman that had a boat that nice would be tending his oil burner so as not to be spewing black smoke! I posted the pic because she is one of my favorites. I fantasize about building a nice cabin steam launch and she is a particularly pretty one. Sad to hear she's been converted to diesel. Boilers are expensive, though, so I can understand. (Everybody seems to focus on the engines, but it's the boilers that really define the steam plant and that often comprise the better part of the overall cost.)

Please pass my thanks to the Kiwis for doing all they have to preserve pleasure boat steam!

Norita is actually a fairly new boat, having been launched in 1997 or 1998 if I remember rightly. Her boiler has suffered water damage to a few tubes resulting in some leaks, and rather than retube she has been diseasilised. A nice boat, could have been prettier had she been built as originally drawn. Her sister Eliza Hobson features in my thread http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?90165-A-new-boat-in-the-fleet... While originally build side by side, the pair ended up quite different boats as Eliza was later widened, but retained the big compound and VFT, while Norita got a smaller twin simple and a watertube boiler.

I doubt there will be many more boats restored to steam in New Zealand, there aren't that many hulls around, but there are a number of new builds well underway including some reasonable sized vessels (under 40 feet) which will add to the scene well in the next few years.

Daniel

87gn@tahoe
02-03-2013, 03:57 AM
Sorry to resurrect a thread from the dead, but I cannot stand misinformation, and misconceptions regarding steam power.

Here is the post-incident report for the 2001 Medina, Ohio steam tractor explosion:

http://www.doli.state.mn.us/ccld/BoilerIncidentsHobby.asp

As well as pictures:

http://www.doli.state.mn.us/ccld/BoilerIncidentsHobby1.asp

The operator was a complete moron for even throwing more than a heat lamp in the firebox of that tractor. As the report shows, there was a complete disregard for safety on part of the operator. Even if they were not stopped by the police officer, the accident would have still occurred.

It is a shame that the operator didn't have his breathing license revoked prior to the incident and him procreating. I shudder to think that his DNA may still be floating around in the gene pool.

In short, 99.99% of all boiler failures can be traced to operator, maintenance, or supporting machinery (i.e. automatic feedwater controls) error, with the very rare material failure. If a boiler is well maintained, inspected and hydro tested regularly, it can last many many years. When a competent person finds a boiler to be beyond her years, it is during a yearly hydro test, ultrasonic test, or visual inspection. Not through catastrophic failure.

Near me, in Carson City, NV there is the Virgina & Truckee RR. locomotive "Inyo", built in 1875 and still operation with her original boiler, albeit re-tubed (tubes are considered consumables) and at a reduced working pressure. That is a boiler of riveted construction 138 years old. Metallurgy, construction techniques, boiler water treatment, etc. have come leaps and bounds since then.

A boiler is only as safe, or unsafe, as the operator, or non-operator as a "safe" operator would see an unsafe condition and not operate the device.

Unfortunately operator licensing came into effect due to people like the above mentioned moron getting themselves and others killed through shoddy work, maintenance, and operation.

Sorry for the rant and curse of the mummy thread resurrection.

P.S. Daniel, I think the train of thought for firetube vs watertube relates to the amount of water, and hence stored energy, contained within one vs the other for a given power output. Extreme example would be a 10hp Monotube with 2 gallons and a 10hp VFT with 10 gallons+

~Wes

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c346/buickcars/Steam%20BOATS/Steamboatmeet2011009.jpg

Andrew Craig-Bennett
02-03-2013, 07:29 AM
This is my pet steam locomotive.


http://train-photos.com.s3.amazonaws.com/13394.jpg

Great Eastern RailwayY14 class, later LNER J15 class, 0-6-0 no 65462. Alone, of all her tribe of 227, she survives, on the North Norfolk Railway, and I make occasional pilgrimages to see her. She was the station pilot at my home town when I was a little boy; I saw her sheeted over at the end of a bay platform in Colchester in 1963 and feared the worst, but she was the lucky one that was preserved. Designed by Wilson Worsdell in 1883, but this particular one was built just before WW1. Not big, not powerful, not fast (might be good for 40mph on a good day) but very reliable, and with a light axle loading. just 13 tons, could go anywhere.

The antediluvian appearance of these engines, with their tall chimneys, small diameter, low pitched, boilers never went, open cabs and the forward placing of the steam dome, gave the East Anglian railway system a reputation for backwardness, but in fact they were just well suited to local conditions, and the hugely oversized running gear never broke, so the class chalked up a service life of 80 years - a record that the DC3 is about to equal..

No. 930 of this class set a world record - she was built in 9 hours and 45 minutes.

Andrew Craig-Bennett
02-03-2013, 07:40 AM
One of this class had a fatal boiler explosion, at Westerfield, on the Lowestoft line between Woodbridge and lpswich, on the 25th September 1900:

http://w.railwaysarchive.co.uk/documents/BoT_Westerfield1900.pdf

I find reading that Victorian report is rather like watching an episode of "Air Crash Investigation".

The explosion was attributed to the use of bronze stay bolts, rather than copper, tapped into the firebox with the ends not rivetted over. The safety valves were tested and found good and there was not much evidence of the water level being below what it should have been - but be it noted that fusible plugs were not used. Maintenance record keeping was found to have been adequate but there was no "closed loop" reporting system - a driver could make a comment on the state of an engine in the maintenance log and it was nobody's job to read the log and act on the comment.

Peerie Maa
02-03-2013, 07:52 AM
Sadly that state didn't require boiler inspections.



I find this statement appalling.

My understanding of ft vs wt failure from Thermodynamics classes at Uni is that with water tube all you get is a high pressure jet of steam blowing off into the furnace. With FT you get a big volume of boiling water dumped into the heat of the furnace that flashes off into steam with explosive force.

leikec
02-03-2013, 02:08 PM
http://www.rgspemkt.com/On2/24/24FX-3Photo.JPG

Jeff C

Flying Orca
02-03-2013, 02:12 PM
Is the guy's name Mike Mulligan, by any chance?

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_RUhAah0AKMM/TUA9LRbXBHI/AAAAAAAAAC0/hqjgvTS_nLs/s1600/mike-mulligan.jpg

That was my first thought too...

87gn@tahoe
02-03-2013, 02:22 PM
[QUOTE=Andrew Craig-Bennett;3685117]This is my pet steam locomotive.


http://train-photos.com.s3.amazonaws.com/13394.jpg

[/QUOTE

England, and her subjects, always had the most beautiful steam locomotives, and did to the bitter end. Ours started out pretty, but morphed in to bit black brutes, albeit very impressive, were ugly as sin.

Andrew Craig-Bennett
02-03-2013, 02:25 PM
http://www.rgspemkt.com/On2/24/24FX-3Photo.JPG

Jeff C

I see your delightful Sandy River and Rangely Lakes Railroad two foot gauge Baldwin and raise you the Welsh Highland Railway's Garrett:

http://users.powernet.co.uk/hamilton/bgpix/DonNewingGarratt141-2.jpg

mikefrommontana
02-03-2013, 02:29 PM
WRT no boiler inspection at the time of the Medina accident:

This was true. There was no inspection process for AGRICULTURAL boilers in OHIO at the time. This has been changed and Medina is a byword for the entire steam community in the U.S.. A similar accident (again caused by failed maintenance) happened on the Gettysburg Railroad and is the byword for railroad steam operators.

So long as reasonable maintenance is followed and proper operator procedures adhered to, a steam boiler/engine is as safe or safer than many, many other pursuits out there--including boating.


I find this statement appalling.

My understanding of ft vs wt failure from Thermodynamics classes at Uni is that with water tube all you get is a high pressure jet of steam blowing off into the furnace. With FT you get a big volume of boiling water dumped into the heat of the furnace that flashes off into steam with explosive force.

Andrew Craig-Bennett
02-03-2013, 02:46 PM
[QUOTE=Andrew Craig-Bennett;3685117]This is my pet steam locomotive.


http://train-photos.com.s3.amazonaws.com/13394.jpg

[/QUOTE

England, and her subjects, always had the most beautiful steam locomotives, and did to the bitter end. Ours started out pretty, but morphed in to bit black brutes, albeit very impressive, were ugly as sin.

Many people think that the most beautiful of all main line steam locomotives is Patrick Stirling's eight foot single:

http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~emgeedee/jpgstore/stirling.jpg

The National Railway Museum let her out to play from time to time.

leikec
02-03-2013, 03:08 PM
I see your delightful Sandy River and Rangely Lakes Railroad two foot gauge Baldwin and raise you the Welsh Highland Railway's Garrett:

http://users.powernet.co.uk/hamilton/bgpix/DonNewingGarratt141-2.jpg


I love that locomotive! Very cool...

Jeff C

Peerie Maa
02-03-2013, 03:12 PM
Many people think that the most beautiful of all main line steam locomotives is Patrick Stirling's eight foot single:

http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~emgeedee/jpgstore/stirling.jpg

The National Railway Museum let her out to play from time to time.

Nice in a mechanical way, but I prefer the streamliners for elegance:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/af/2011-04-24_SirNigelGresley.jpg/800px-2011-04-24_SirNigelGresley.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5a/Number_4468_Mallard_in_York.jpg/800px-Number_4468_Mallard_in_York.jpg

leikec
02-03-2013, 03:21 PM
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-ZNXXj4iYeA0/TZukCbAJ3WI/AAAAAAAAADc/at3FoTDTAAo/s1600/Howard_Fogg_034_999_Empire_State_Express.jpg

87gn@tahoe
02-03-2013, 03:27 PM
Although the Swooping lines sheetmetal work of the Gresley and Mallard is quite beautiful, I think it detracts from the mechanical beauty of steam power. I think the Toronado, Scotsman, Elizabeth, etc. have it spot on. One can see all the poetry of the mechanical bits presented beautifully in typical British fashion.

Don't get me wrong, the Mallard is one of my all time favorite locomotives, but not the "ultimate" IMO.

leikec
02-03-2013, 03:32 PM
Although the Swooping lines sheetmetal work of the Gresley and Mallard is quite beautiful, I think it detracts from the mechanical beauty of steam power. I think the Toronado, Scotsman, Elizabeth, etc. have it spot on. One can see all the poetry of the mechanical bits presented beautifully in typical British fashion.

Don't get me wrong, the Mallard is one of my all time favorite locomotives, but not the "ultimate" IMO.


I like streamlined locos, including Mallard, but I think overall I prefer the more utilitarian look of workaday steam...

http://www.railarchive.net/rlsteam/gtw5629-1.jpg

Jeff C

Peerie Maa
02-03-2013, 03:57 PM
I like streamlined locos, including Mallard, but I think overall I prefer the more utilitarian look of workaday steam...

http://www.railarchive.net/rlsteam/gtw5629-1.jpg

Jeff C

Too cluttered by half. Like a Bacon painting with the guts on display. :D
I quite like these:
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_1DJYJashoT0/TOHHvvTw_1I/AAAAAAAAEp4/EEIT4ByJ-Qw/s1600/ffestiniog.jpg

Andrew Craig-Bennett
02-03-2013, 05:11 PM
WRT no boiler inspection at the time of the Medina accident:

This was true. There was no inspection process for AGRICULTURAL boilers in OHIO at the time. This has been changed and Medina is a byword for the entire steam community in the U.S.. A similar accident (again caused by failed maintenance) happened on the Gettysburg Railroad and is the byword for railroad steam operators.

So long as reasonable maintenance is followed and proper operator procedures adhered to, a steam boiler/engine is as safe or safer than many, many other pursuits out there--including boating.

You inspired me to look that one up on Google. I've read a good many NTSB reports in the course of my work, but I never expected to read one on a steam locomotive boiler explosion, and I doubt if the NTSB expected to write one. None the less it is up to their usual high standard:

http://www.communityhotline.com/upload/SIR9605.pdf

and it makes an interesting pair with the 1900 British Board of Trade report into the Westerfield boiler explosion (post 64 above):

http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/documents/BoT_Westerfield1900.pdf

Interestingly, neither locomotive was fitted with fusible plugs in the firebox crown.

Andrew Craig-Bennett
02-03-2013, 06:00 PM
The preserved steam railways started with the huge advantage of a supply of enthusiasts who were fully trained, highly experienced, professional steam locomotive engineers and firemen looking for something to do in retirement - from somewhere I recall that at least one of the Ffestiniog's drivers was a very well known East Coast Main Line driver, so he went from the locomotives in Nick's Post 63 to the locomotives in Nick's Post 67.

The supply of such men who, like toolmakers, were very literate and very numerate members of the working class aristocracy, has now dried up completely, on both sides of the pond.

obscured by clouds
02-03-2013, 06:06 PM
Nice in a mechanical way, but I prefer the streamliners for elegance:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/af/2011-04-24_SirNigelGresley.jpg/800px-2011-04-24_SirNigelGresley.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5a/Number_4468_Mallard_in_York.jpg/800px-Number_4468_Mallard_in_York.jpg

love this. even more impressive i reality:

http://www.dodaj.rs/f/w/OD/4b9pqoz0/brick-locomotive-darling.jpg

Andrew Craig-Bennett
02-03-2013, 06:15 PM
The streamlining of Gresley's A4, P2, W1 and B17 classes has been criticised as being aerodynamically inefficient, whereas Stanier's streamlining was better at reducing drag, but that misses the point - Gresley's shape was intended to throw the funnel smoke and steam well clear of the cab windows, allowing the driver to see signals at high speed, and it was wind tunnel tested for this. The fact that the streamlining was removed from the Stanier Pacifics, whilst it was retained on the Gresley engines, rather speaks for itself!

Hunky Dory
02-04-2013, 01:51 PM
http://i1198.photobucket.com/albums/aa455/BobLister/Boat%20Show%20Pics/2011Mysticsteamer.jpg

87gn@tahoe
02-05-2013, 02:13 PM
That's the steam launch Reciproca, built and recently sold by Kelly Anderson. A beautiful little boat http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDv_J1RXTB4

Canoeyawl
02-05-2013, 07:13 PM
Has Phillip seen this?


love this. even more impressive i reality:

http://www.dodaj.rs/f/w/OD/4b9pqoz0/brick-locomotive-darling.jpg

87gn@tahoe
02-08-2013, 02:02 PM
More marine steam... Just 'cuz

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c346/buickcars/Steam%20BOATS/sandin_zps47244517.jpg
http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c346/buickcars/Steam%20BOATS/IMG_2110.jpg
http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c346/buickcars/Steam%20BOATS/NEWBOAT018.jpg
http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c346/buickcars/Steam%20BOATS/SteamerTahoe.jpg