Marsh Cat & Haven

[TomFF]

The proponents of the Haven 12 1/2 claim the boat will comfortably seat four adults. Can that be true?

What about the Marsh Cat? Can four adults fit in her? She has a shorter LOA (15 vs. the haven's 16) but a longer lwl (14 vs 12 1/2) and is significantly wider (6'11 vs 6'1).

[Keith Wilson]

From personal experience, I can say that the Herreshoff 12-1/2 and the Haven will definitely seat four adults in reasonable comfort; no problem at all. I've never sailed a Marsh Cat.

[Buddy Sharpton]

The Haven does have a centerboard trunk to deal with, but the regular 12 1/2 has a open cockpit sole. Both have a bench full length from the mast bulkhead back to the stern, with a seat level aft "deck" forming the top of the aft watertight flotation chamber. There is comfortable room for four, certainly two and two to a side. Going upwing it would be real tight to get everybody on the high side, bit 3 and 1 would work. I have heard people say they have taken six out on the right day, but it was of course tight- a cocktail cruise perhaps.
I own the MarshCat, my choice because I wanted to have a boat that I could rig and launch quickly by myself, be a camp cruiser for me and my wife on the coast, and big enough to take another couple out for the day on an out of town seacoast trip.
The Marshcat's cockpit is bigger than on my auxiliary- its ten feet long and an average of 5 1/2 feet between the coamings. I have had six people aboard. What you have to keep in ming is that this is just like the 12' Beetle Cat- it's a flat cockpit floor as designed. You can sprawl out anywhere on a seat cushion and the coaming supports your back just right. The flat floor is great for sleeping bags and air mattresses. You can sit on the foredeck with legs inside the cockpit. You can take a cushion outboard of the coaming and sit on the side decks on a beat. Lots of spread out space. BUT. when its just me and my wife- which its is mostly, we and our post 50 bones wanted "regular" seats up of the floor like our big boat, so I made removable mahogany seat risers and storage bins , two and two each side, topped with cushioned Sport a Seats. The floorboards between the seats have been made removable so you can get a little more foot room to ease you knees, or you can stretch your legs onto the unoccupied seat opposite for a lounge chair effect. All this gear can stow away in the cuddy, and the sleeping bags and air matresses come out for bedtime.Got a market umbrella and cockpit table than can go betwwen the seats for the best movable back porch cocktails and dinner spot I've got. Works for us!

[Mr.O]

Tom You might find a look at the Haven site a good chance to view the cabin area of a Haven 12 1/2. Also lots of other info if you're contemplating building one.. Jack Havenbuilders.com

[TomFF]

Thanks guys. At this point I'm more interested in the Marsh Cat. I suspect the project will take 2-3 years for me. Building the boat is important to me (once I finally decide on it). I have learn much about sailing as I'm quite the novice. But the process of building gets my blood flowing as does a trailer sailer that will enable me to get out with another couple or to spend some time with my family. I can get excited about some sailing/camping in the nearby TVA lakes.

I still haven't decided. At one point I seriously considered the snipe. But then I realized I wasn't interested in racing and I want to be able to spend time with my family when i sail. I also like to fish. So the marsh Cat seems to be the best bet.

I've ordered a book on cold moulded boatbuilding (R. Parker's The New Cold molding) to get a better feel for this method. I think I will order the plans shortly.

[Wiley Baggins]

Originally posted by TomFF:
I've ordered a book on cold moulded boatbuilding (R. Parker's The New Cold molding) to get a better feel for this method. I think I will order the plans shortly.You might be better served by Nicolson's "Cold Moulded and Strip-Planked Wood Boatbuilding." I believe that Parker's book focuses on his particular approach, which may not be applicable to the Marsh Cat.

[TomFF]

Thanks for the advise. I want to get a detailed feel for cold molding so I can get a better estimate of what it will take. Any other cold molders with an opinion on this? What are some good resources on cold molding?

[Steve Paskey]

Wiley's right about Parker's book. He uses a "simplified" method of cold-molding that works well for larger hulls. As he says in the introduction: "The methods to be described can be adapted to most hull shapes of any size, with a lower practical limit of around 20 feet depending on shape."
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I doubt they'd work for Marsh Cat, which has proportionally sharper curves (compared to her length) than the methods and materials could handle.

[TomFF]

I will get Nicolson's book. I'm trying to figure out the cost of cold molding the hull. Seems like a lot of glue to buy. Can anyone give me a budget estimate for the hull?

[Ian McColgin]

Tom, the Marsh Cat will do you better for trailoring. Another option would be an older Thistle - plenty of wood work you can do restoring her and a great boat. I notice a 'free' hull just a bit north of you in the current WB . . .

Nothing more expensive than a free boat but why not get in the water a couple of years earlier in a good classic that's responsive?

When I was a child, growing up in a CC Knockabout, our closest friends were growing up in their Thistle. Our two families camp/cruised in the summers when our fathers were home (both pilots) and daysailed when they were not. That Thistle roamed Long Island Sound with two adults and 4 children. Also, our parents would sometimes take one or the other boat, so I know four adults can hang in a Thistle all day.

Little Kathy and I took the Thistle out (more fun than our knockabout) from the time we were about 10 on - not a hard boat to sail.

[Buddy Sharpton]

Ian's suggestion about a woody Thistle is a good one-it's about the same cubic volume as the Marshcat but a lot more horsepower and tippie, twichier. The booms awful low and requires a "heads up" attitude of a different sort. I've mentioned before, I think a Thistle with the boom rigged to reef UP to a set of reef points about 16" above the foot would tame the beast and get noggin room for a great daysailer configuration. Still no cockpit sole space to camp in.but it's got great seats, and with the reduced sail area not requiring all butts on the rail to keep the boat upright, you'd get to use them.
That said, you're welcome to try out my MarshCat at Lake Lanier in Atlanta if you've a mind too, to get a better idea of what you'd be building.

[Buddy Sharpton]

By the way, I've sailed the Snipe and you're talking about a much smaller boat than the Haven or MarshCat. Nice solo daysailer or racer, or me and you boat but not four an all day outing for four.
Super boat, more fleets of them than even Thistles for the racer on a trailer circuit, great class organization, but you can say the same for the Thistle. Seems like the Lightnings are less used these days.

[TomFF]

I thought about the Thistle and I am curious about the one just north of me. I don't have the new WB- my new subscription won't arrive for a while (so the kind folks in subscription services tell me) and it hasn't made the news stands here as yet. Any help?

Having said that I must admit I have this inner need to build. I built a drift boat several years ago while I lived in Montana. The process is something I enjoy. And my thirteen year son has indicated an interest in building as well. I also like all that I've seen in the Marsh Cat. It seems to be exerting a lot of pull on me.

Buddy
I may just take you up on your offer- Perhaps I'll talk my wife into a drive down there in the near future.

[Ian McColgin]

Tom, I flashed you the guts of the ad on the WB forum e-mail thingy.

[Keith Wilson]

FWIW, Marsh Cats have also been built glued-plywood lapstrake, which I think would be easier than cold-molding. Here's a link; (http://www.greatwoodboats.com/index2.htm) look under "custom sailboats" and there are a bunch of pictures.

[ 03-06-2003, 12:21 PM: Message edited by: Keith Wilson ]

[Alan Peck]

I have looked at the Marsh Cat numerous times and it seems like it would fit my needs perfectly.

However, I have been put off by the cold molding process. I just don't want to do that.

Glued lap plywood, on the other hand, is something I would like to try. But, how difficult is it to convert plans for cold molding to glued lap?

[Buddy Sharpton]

Alan, why don't you ask Mike Kiefer at www.greatboats.com? (http://www.greatboats.com?) He's done one at least and there are many photos of one painted yellow at his site. It's certainly lapstake, I presume it could well be glued, if not, why not on yours? A very lovely looking "extra" bunch of curves.

[Keith Wilson]

I don't think it would be at all difficult to convert the Marsh Cat's plans to glued-lap plywood. You'll have to loft the thing anyway, and if you use Tom Hill's method of lining off the planks on the mold using stringers, it should be relatively easy. I'd use plywood approximately the same thickness as the cold-molded skin. Glued lapstrake will give you a solid one-piece shell just like cold-molding, so no additional frames should be necessary. The double-thickness stringers formed at each lap joint will probably compensate for the extra strength added by glass/epoxy sheathing on the cold-molded boat. Catboats have a lot of twist to the planks forward, so don;t try to make them too wide and you should be OK.

I've always thought that a glued-lap Haven 12-1/2 would be a really nice boat, and iritating the Herreshoff purists would be fun too. http://216.40.249.192/s/cwm/cwm/spin2.gif

[ 03-06-2003, 01:34 PM: Message edited by: Keith Wilson ]

[BrianR]

Why not build the Marsh Cat using the stip method?

[TomFF]

Brian- I built a seam batten drift boat and significantly altered the plans. The result was good but in hindsight I wouldn't modify the plans as much as I did.

It is interesting that many boat builders talk of cold molding the Haven (which calls for carvel) and want to lapstrake the Marsh Cat (which calls for cold molding). Thats great for them- they must be committed to a particular approach.

I'm not committed to any one building process. Cold molding makes sense to me as a good procedure. I see no reason to strip. I would need a very good reason to make such a major departure from the plans.