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View Full Version : an old problem.....geting plans from Phil Bolger and Friends....any help appreciated



Alex Pyper
06-05-2011, 07:02 PM
Hello Boaters,

Am trying to get plans of Bolgers Wyoming and accompanying manual. Faxed Phil Bolger and Friends a few weeks ago and again a few days ago. No response.

Any ideas on how to get a response? Are they, in fact, responding? What type of payment should be sent if hoping for plans?

Any and all help would be appreciated. I want to get building!

Alex in Bracebridge Ontario Canada

Tom Robb
06-05-2011, 10:23 PM
If it's a Dyamite Payson owned plan, his widow may be still selling them. I haven't heard one way or the other.
I understand Bolger's widow is quite busy with some fish boat project, IIRC, and may be slow to respond. I expect the business is just her now that Phil is dead.

Tom Robb
06-05-2011, 10:28 PM
BTW, lots of guys buy plans just to dream about and never build the boat.
If you tell us which boat, there may be someone here who has an unused plan for the boat who would give or sell you the plans. Building a second boat from someone's used plan is most unethical at best and a serious disservice to PCB's widow, Susan.
It could happen.

aprophet
06-06-2011, 08:10 AM
I am pretty sure Wyoming is going to come from Susanne I have never seen it advertised over at www.instantboats.com (http://www.instantboats.com) Dynamite Paysons website

brucehallman
06-06-2011, 11:07 AM
Hello Boaters,

Am trying to get plans of Bolgers Wyoming and accompanying manual. Faxed Phil Bolger and Friends a few weeks ago and again a few days ago. No response.

Any ideas on how to get a response? Are they, in fact, responding? What type of payment should be sent if hoping for plans?

Any and all help would be appreciated. I want to get building!

Alex in Bracebridge Ontario Canada

Did you remember to include your return fax # in your request? You might also consider sending a postal letter with a stamped returned envelope. Phil Bolger & Friends, P.O. Box 1209 Gloucester, MA, 01930

I have been following the issue of plan availability of Bolger designs for years. There was a delay measured in a few months following his death in 2008, which was to be expected. Ever since then, the processing time seems to be measured in between a week and a few weeks. And while it requires some patience on the customer's part, it does appear that they always eventually get a response. I suggest that if you are serious about building a 51 foot boat, like the Wyoming, you will need have enough patience to wait a few weeks for reply.

In the case of the smaller plans sets available from www.instantboats.com (http://www.instantboats.com), I understand that this plans selling business has been handed off to a close friend/relative of HH Payson, and that it continues to be in operation.

Tom Robb
06-06-2011, 12:00 PM
Ah yes, Wyoming. Had I read closely enough, I'd have known that.
Bruce is right. PB & Friends is just Susan now... patience grasshopper. (Easy to say)

brucehallman
06-06-2011, 12:51 PM
PB & Friends is just Susan now... patience grasshopper. (Easy to say)

I am not sure it is fair to say that PB&F is just Susanne. Though she is predominate in PB&F. The latest I have heard is that a group of PF&Friends have initiated, raised funding and actually are implementing a prototype boat build of a fairly big Advanced Fisherman fuel efficient sustainable fishing vessel in Gloucester.

I think a better way to put it is that PB&F are working to actually see the Bolger dream/cause of finding a way to save the failed Gloucester fishing industry. (And by extension, to save the failing world fishing industry by bringing the world's fisheries back to a sustainable economical model.) This is a huge and noble worthwhile goal, feeding the world from the first to the third.

It kind of pales in comparison to people who are dreaming of building a 51ft hobby boat. Not to say that PB&F has abandoned us boat building couch-dreamers, but PB&F is also spending their attention on other things besides us hobbyists.

(Beyond saving the world fisheries industry, I believe that they also are continuing their planning and development work doing "Meta-level" planning with the US Navy.) Their attentions have branched out from our well-loved Instant Boats.

andrewe
06-06-2011, 03:02 PM
Yes, well. But no reaction to keen followers of PFB's designs who would like to build one is a bit......Hand it over to someone who will forfil their needs, or at least tell them something.
A

brucehallman
06-06-2011, 04:03 PM
Hand it over...


Phil Bolger, a devout property respecting Libertarian, is rolling in his grave. You and I have no right what-so-ever to purchase any of those plans that are private property. The truth be told, we have no right to demand that his heir sell his plans. It can be seen as arrogant that we get impatient that we must wait a few weeks for service.

brucehallman
06-06-2011, 11:09 PM
I think it's perfectly fair to say that PB&F is just Suzanne. ... her brusque and insufferable manners before the whole enterprise falls apart.


If you are going to insult someone, perhaps you want to spell their name correctly? Its "Susanne".

aprophet
06-06-2011, 11:28 PM
just curious have you seen this I read it in a book just found it on the web tonight


"She was practically a two-to-one scale-up of our Sneakeasy 26' x 4' runabout. Several of those had been built; they went quite fast with no wake to speak of and modest power; for instance, 18mph with 18hp"

While I was waiting for a response I would build a model of sneakeasy and just double the dimensions just to get a feel for the proportions and all good luck

slidercat
06-07-2011, 01:09 AM
The truth be told, we have no right to demand that his heir sell his plans. It can be seen as arrogant that we get impatient that we must wait a few weeks for service.

It seems even more arrogant to be offering the plans for sale, but not responding to folks who want to buy them. If they don't want to provide adequate customer service, for whatever reason, then they should either announce that the plans are no longer for sale, or hire someone to take care of business. It's not very admirable to be wasting people's time.

andrewe
06-07-2011, 03:37 AM
Phil Bolger, a devout property respecting Libertarian, is rolling in his grave. You and I have no right what-so-ever to purchase any of those plans that are private property. The truth be told, we have no right to demand that his heir sell his plans. It can be seen as arrogant that we get impatient that we must wait a few weeks for service.
You missed my last sentance or tell them something, To apparently have something for sale, but not respond to repeated letters, e-mails etc.... A local friend asked about Chebacca, he finally got a nice response, but it was months. A quick e-mail would suffice.

brucehallman
06-07-2011, 10:24 AM
It seems even more arrogant to be offering the plans for sale, but not responding to folks who want to buy them. If they don't want to provide adequate customer service, for whatever reason, then they should either announce that the plans are no longer for sale, or hire someone to take care of business. It's not very admirable to be wasting people's time.

Be fair. The complaint is not that they are not responding to folks, but rather that they don't respond fast enough to satisfy their impatience. Do we have a right to demand quick service? You think yes. The irony here, is that this demand for quick service is followed by people being rude.

I appears I am out of sync with others. I believe that we actually don't have any right what-so-ever to purchase the Bolger plans. (We never did.) And, if we want to purchase plans, we should be polite and be willing to wait our turn. If she is busy doing something else (no surprise) people have been having to wait a few weeks.

brucehallman
06-07-2011, 10:36 AM
While I was waiting for a response I would build a model of sneakeasy and just double the dimensions just to get a feel for the proportions and all good luck

I agree that building a model, or doing some computer lofting is a very wise use of your time while waiting for the plans.

Also of interest is the article in the magazine Messing About in Boats which describes the original design #520, and the modified design #520M. You could get a reprint of the article from the publisher, Bob Hicks, he sells them for cheap Volume 18, Issue 06.

http://www.messingaboutinboats.com/messform.html

Here is a scan from that article which might help...

http://hallman.org/bolger/wyoming.gif

Jim Ledger
06-07-2011, 10:51 AM
Surprising no one's built one...;)

brucehallman
06-07-2011, 10:56 AM
Surprising no one's built one...;)

I agree. If a builder could avoid the temptation to modify it, or to gold plate things; it could be easily achieved for low cost. (Also, low running costs, that hull would be extremely fuel efficient.) Finding economical berthing for a 51 foot boat could be done, but would "take some imagination".

My preference is for the leaner original 520 configuration.

brucehallman
06-07-2011, 11:09 AM
A local friend asked about Chebacca, he finally got a nice response, but it was months.

Be man enough to give specifics when you make a generalized statement like that which amounts to a smear. Who, when? I believe you are speaking of the same event you wrote of three days ago? When you wrote then, described "a bad time for her". To be clear, she was grieving the untimely death of her husband. I would hope that we could cut some slack for that.

Jim Ledger
06-07-2011, 11:10 AM
Finding economical berthing for a 51 foot boat could be done, but would "take some imagination".


I'm imagining a free slip right this minute. Ohhhh, it's goood.

Dave Wright
06-07-2011, 11:13 AM
Surprising no one's built one...;)

I love you man!!

brucehallman
06-07-2011, 11:53 AM
Notice in the 520M drawing the 9.9hp High Thrust outboard motor? (Figuring back of the envelope), that would get about the equivalent of 18 miles per gallon.

slidercat
06-07-2011, 12:31 PM
Be fair. The complaint is not that they are not responding to folks, but rather that they don't respond fast enough to satisfy their impatience. Do we have a right to demand quick service? You think yes. The irony here, is that this demand for quick service is followed by people being rude.

I appears I am out of sync with others. I believe that we actually don't have any right what-so-ever to purchase the Bolger plans. (We never did.) And, if we want to purchase plans, we should be polite and be willing to wait our turn. If she is busy doing something else (no surprise) people have been having to wait a few weeks.

I don't understand your position at all. If I go down to the grocery store and see a pile of oranges with a sign on it saying "For Sale," why in the world do I not have a right to purchase said oranges? Am I missing something here? Are the plans not actually for sale? If they are listed as being for sale, then making people wait weeks for a response is at the very least a poor business practice, and quite rude.

If his widow is too busy to deal with those who wish to purchase plans, then she would do much better to hand over plan sales to someone like you who loves the designs and wants to see the boats built. I doubt you'd charge an exorbitant commission, plans buyers would get responses in a timely manner, and Phil Bolger's remarkable legacy would be getting much better stewardship. It seems from the messages posted here that his widow is tarnishing that legacy by antagonizing some of the very people who want to keep it alive in the most direct manner-- by building his boats.

I would think that you of all people would not wish to see that happen.

mcdenny
06-07-2011, 12:45 PM
Wouldn't this be a perfect opportunity for another plan selling NA's widow, Pat Atkin, to step in?

Anybody here with the personal relationships to suggest it to them?

brucehallman
06-07-2011, 12:52 PM
If I go down to the grocery store and see a pile of oranges with a sign on it saying "For Sale," why in the world do I not have a right to purchase said oranges? Am I missing something here?

Yes. Waiting a few weeks for plans isn't rude. Insulting people (like you did when you called Ms. Altenberger "not very admirable") is rude.


It seems from the messages posted here that his widow is tarnishing that legacy by antagonizing some of the very people who want to keep it alive in the most direct manner-- by building his boats.


According to Phil Bolger, Susanne Altenberger was a fully involved equal collaborator in all of their design practice after about 1994. Dismissing her as a mere 'widow' "tarnishing that legacy" seems quite sexist on your part. Am I missing something here?

mcdenny
06-07-2011, 01:11 PM
On another note, I'm a fan of Whio also. I don't have the courage or space to build her but I wish someone would.

Both Wyoming and Sneakeasy are in "Boats With an Open Mind". Guessing Sneakeasy's 26' x 4'6" hull weight at 1000 lbs, Whio ought to weigh around 8,000. Make it 10,000 to allow for all the stuff you could fit inside and the performance becomes:

5hp-----6.8 mph---16 mpg
10 hp --8.5 mph --10.2 mpg
20 hp--10.7 mph---6.4 mpg
40 hp--13.4 mph---4.0 mpg

Not too bad for a boat the size of a Greyhound bus.

A 25 hp high thrust motor would be sweet. What a way to do the Erie Canal, maybe even the great loop.

Armchair sailors could run her from New York to London on 220 gallons of gas although you would need to imagine a dead calm for 22 days to make the trip.

brucehallman
06-07-2011, 01:35 PM
On another note, I'm a fan of Whio also. I don't have the courage or space to build her but I wish someone would.

Both Wyoming and Sneakeasy are in "Boats With an Open Mind". Guessing Sneakeasy's 26' x 4'6" hull weight at 1000 lbs, Whio ought to weigh around 8,000. Make it 10,000 to allow for all the stuff you could fit inside and the performance becomes:

5hp-----6.8 mph---16 mpg
10 hp --8.5 mph --10.2 mpg
20 hp--10.7 mph---6.4 mpg
40 hp--13.4 mph---4.0 mpg

Not too bad for a boat the size of a Greyhound bus.


Online sources that a 9.9 hp High Thrust consumes about 1/3 gallon at 3/4 throttle. I am guessing five knots, 6 mph = 18 mpg. Excellent fuel efficiency (very likely), indeed better that one would expect from a 51 foot mobile home RV land vehicle.

Key to this design concept, is light weight. I doubt that the designer would condone loading it up with tons of gear. I believe the design spec says 10,000lbs design displacement.

John Bell
06-07-2011, 02:30 PM
I agree that we don't have the right to buy Bolger plans. And if Susanne wants to exit the market and no longer sell plans, that is also her right. I think it's a bad business decision walking away from the potential cash flow, but it's not mine to make.

However, if something is offered for sale customers absolutely do have the right to complain if they feel the service they are getting does not meet their expectations. And plans are still be offered for sale via PCB&F's continuing contributions to MAIB.

Susanne could could go a long way toward fixing this if she would lay out the conditions of sale up front, e. g. 'it takes 6-8 weeks for orders to be fulfilled.' The business of PCB&F will either succeed or die based on whether or not customers will accept those terms.

brucehallman
06-07-2011, 03:56 PM
I think it's a bad business decision walking away from the potential cash flow, but it's not mine to make.

I think you might be overestimating the potential cash flow. A large part of the work of selling plans involves unpaid 'support' responding to inquiries/questions/demands of the couch dreamers, and the aggravation & liability of the build and usage. (IE with Reiver, Luna, etc.) Could it be less desirable selling plans to crotchety complaining impatient sexists customers? At the least if we want continued access to these plans, might we be polite?


e. g. 'it takes 6-8 weeks for orders to be fulfilled.'

Why do you exaggerate? By my observation, the time frame currently is more like 1-3 weeks. Even when Phil Bolger was alive, they did not have a reputation of instantaneous service, yet why the complaints now? The unfortunate appearance here is sexism aimed at the 'wife'.

Tom Robb
06-07-2011, 04:12 PM
Alex,
Michael Storer in OZ via Duckworks sells a 26' and a 35' (IIRC) wyoming style plan set.
Perhaps it would be worth your while to look into them while waiting.
The comparisons may even be edifying.
Michael, conceivably, could be persuaded to modify one of them to better fit your needs.

John Bell
06-07-2011, 04:12 PM
Geez Bruce, step away from this a little bit. How anything I said could be interpreted as sexist, I don't know.

As for 6-8 weeks, I was merely giving an example. I understand that you have much more personal relationship with Susanne than just about anyone here. As the result you seem to be very sensitive to any perceived slight. But it was simply an example, nothing more, nothing less.

The point remains: a customer is more likely to be satisfied if the seller sets expectations up front. If time-to-serve is two days or two months, everyone will be much happier if they know it at the outset. This is not intended to be rude, rather it is intended to be constructive.

Dave Wright
06-07-2011, 04:16 PM
.... sexists customers.....

Absolutely uncalled for and completely without foundation or merit.

It distracts from those very nice renderings which you have posted here and which I have very much enjoyed. Now I have to tell myself "Just look at the renderings and enjoy them, don't be distracted by the thought of whatever machinations are going on in this individual's mind."

brucehallman
06-07-2011, 04:27 PM
Absolutely uncalled for and completely without foundation or merit.

I apologize for implying sexism on the part of John Bell. Read the thread above, (and other threads going back a decade). There does seem to be an animosity on this forum towards Ms. Altenberger. See above: "her brusque and insufferable manners", "his widow is tarnishing that legacy by antagonizing some". Those are direct quotes.

Do you really think those sentiments would be voiced if Phil Bolger was a woman and Susanne Altenberger was a man? Honest question.

Dave Wright
06-07-2011, 04:39 PM
I apologize for implying sexism on the part of John Bell. Read the thread above, (and other threads going back a decade). There does seem to be an animosity on this forum towards Ms. Altenberger. See above: "her brusque and insufferable manners", "his widow is tarnishing that legacy by antagonizing some". Those are direct quotes.

Do you really think those sentiments would be voiced if Phil Bolger was a woman and Susanne Altenberger was a man? Honest question.

Not trying to start a beef with you Bruce, no reason for that, it's just a matter of being objective. I've had words with her here and know that she quickly jumps to inaccurate conclusions, much as you did with your call of "sexism" from any, or all of the above posters. There was none.

I believe "brusque and insufferable" would be deemed accurate by any independent judging panel that could be assembled.

brucehallman
06-07-2011, 05:15 PM
I believe "brusque and insufferable" would be deemed accurate by any independent judging panel that could be assembled.

Fairly, Phil Bolger would also have been called similar. Why do people here complain just about the woman? Not feminine enough? It sure looks like sexism.

slidercat
06-07-2011, 06:53 PM
Yes. Waiting a few weeks for plans isn't rude. Insulting people (like you did when you called Ms. Altenberger "not very admirable") is rude.

So you're saying that wasting people's time is very admirable? That sentiment seems not very admirable to me. And you just directly insulted me by calling me rude, whereas I was criticizing a business practice, thus my use of the impersonal pronoun, as in "It's not very admirable to be wasting people's time." I hope I don't have to wait too long for your apology.




According to Phil Bolger, Susanne Altenberger was a fully involved equal collaborator in all of their design practice after about 1994. Dismissing her as a mere 'widow' "tarnishing that legacy" seems quite sexist on your part. Am I missing something here?

I called her "his widow," because that's much quicker to write than "Susanne Altenberger." Do you refer to designs drawn since 1994 as "Bolger/Altenberger" plans? If so, I don't recall it. If not, then you are definitely missing something here.

And you just called me "sexist," which is certainly not rude at all, right?

Of course, I realize that I'm not Phil Bolger's widow, so I'm fair game, I suppose.

brucehallman
06-07-2011, 07:27 PM
Do you refer to designs drawn since 1994 as "Bolger/Altenberger" plans?
And you just called me "sexist," which is certainly not rude at all, right?


I pretty consistently refer to Bolger designs post-1994 as either PB&F, or by the shorthand "Bolger".
Pre-1994, I call them "PCB" (as in Phillip C. Bolger), or again "Bolger" for shorthand.

I actually wrote that you seemed sexist, which is a little short of calling you sexist, (not by much, I admit). I cannot see that you have dispelled the appearance much either. (Do you standby your "tarnishing that legacy" statement?) The bottom line with this thread is appears that we disagree on two things;
1) Whether Susanne Altenberger was a full and equal partner in that boat design business, and
2) Whether plans service measured in 1-3 weeks is a "problem".

I would guess that building a Wyoming might take a backyard hobbyist a year, what big deal is three weeks wait?

slidercat
06-07-2011, 08:19 PM
1) I have no idea if Susanne Altenberger was "a full and equal partner in that boat design business" and even less interest in finding out. I criticized a business practice, and said that if this poor business practice continued, it risked tarnishing Bolger's legacy, and I stand by this statement.

2) You have somehow transmuted the original poster's complaint of not being able to get any information at all for "a few weeks" to "1-3 weeks" for plans service. It's magic!

Your evidence for my "sexism" is that I called Phil Bolger's widow "his widow."

If you're going to insult someone, perhaps you should choose a somewhat less ridiculous basis for doing so.

It appears that I will be waiting for your apology for a lot longer than folks will be waiting to hear from PB&F. I expect nothing better, given the way this conversation has gone.

openboater
06-07-2011, 08:23 PM
I've built 2 of Phil's boats, a modified Tennessee and an Old Shoe. As I recall both sets of plans were about 3 weeks wait. In this day and age of 'almost instant gratification', 3 weeks seems forever. BUT, as I've bought 30 or 40 sets of plans over the years and only built a handfull of boats, 3 weeks wait didn't delay construction on the 35 or so boats I didn't build. I waited 3 weeks for the plans for an Atkin XLNC most recently.

If I wanted plans for a Wyo, I'd read one of the cartoons about Wyo, usually Phil would put the price in the last paragraph. I'd make a check out for that amount and mail it to PB&F. I'd keep monitoring my checking account on line, and about 3 weeks after the check is cashed I'd start looking for the plans in the mail.

I had to wait 9 months for each one of my kids to be born, good things just take time.

Duane Brown
06-08-2011, 08:02 AM
Wouldn't this be a perfect opportunity for another plan selling NA's widow, Pat Atkin, to step in?

Anybody here with the personal relationships to suggest it to them?

Exactly what I was just thinking!

mcdenny
06-08-2011, 08:52 AM
IIRC it took about 3 weeks to get plans from Iain Oughtred. They were worth the wait.

orbb
06-08-2011, 09:44 AM
I had to wait 9 months for each one of my kids to be born, good things just take time.

Good perspective, boats are sort of like children.


IIRC it took about 3 weeks to get plans from Iain Oughtred. They were worth the wait.

Iain makes it well known that he does everything by mail and that it will take time. He manages expectations well.

PaulT
06-08-2011, 09:54 AM
Since this thread has devolved into who said what, who owes whom an apology, someones business practices not meeting expectations etc, how about moving the rest of the diatribes to the bilge? We got it... Someone is not happy with PB & F, someone else is defending, others are burning up bandwidth ... Bilge please

botebum
06-08-2011, 10:21 AM
I fail to see how expecting good service and timely response from anyone that purports to be "in business" is out of line.
The oft complained about lackadaisical attitude of PB&F toward clients and potential clients began long before Phil decided to end it.
I've heard these same complaints for years.

I have no personal history with PB&F and probably never will.
Partly, this is because of that reputation and partly because I'm just not a huge fan of most of his/their designs.

Contrastingly, my experience with Pat Atkin has been nothing short of enjoyable.
Responses to my questions were friendly and fast.
My plans arrived exactly when she said they would and exactly as advertised.

As stated by others, neglecting your clients is not a good business model.
Complaining about service that is lacking is absolutely the right of any client.

Doug

brucehallman
06-08-2011, 01:10 PM
The oft complained about lackadaisical attitude of PB&F toward clients and potential clients began long before Phil decided to end it.
I've heard these same complaints for years.

Lackadaisical? Not in my experience. And "Oft complained" doesn't make it fact.

In my experience, the lag time between inquiry and response included time spent in thought considering the question and forming the answer and/or time spent servicing another client who was in line before me.

For nearly a decade I enjoined PB&F in a letter writing exchange. Always, always, their responses to my inquiries were well considered and not lackadaisical.

In his last letter to me, received by me just a week before his death, he apologized for taking six weeks to formulate his reply but explained that he did not want to rush a hasty reply and that the delay was because he was deliberately thinking through his answer.

I don't think selling boat plans is as simple as selling hamburgers. Often the inquiry "sell me plans" is a subtle question meaning "which boat is right for me?" And, conscientious designers are aware that they have some moral obligation to fit the boat to the person, which takes time. (In extreme cases, this is a life and death decision (http://www.cns.gatech.edu/%7Epredrag/friends/Nenad/soundings.html), in which a designer plays a role.)

There are always other people in front of us in line when we ask PB&F questions. Waiting one's turn is appropriate, and hardly lackadaisical.

brucehallman
06-08-2011, 02:06 PM
1)It appears that I will be waiting for your apology for a lot longer ...
I offer you my sincere apology. I got hot and said things about you which I regret and which I did not have a foundation to make. I am very sorry. Sincerely, Bruce Hallman

botebum
06-08-2011, 02:47 PM
Bruce, I can understand that you wish to defend PB&F because you consider yourself a friend and aficionado, but at all cost?
Do not elevate the man or his group to God status. It diminishes your credibility.
Accept that general consensus does not consider PB&Y to be as professionally run as it should be.
If you are truly a friend then maybe you should offer your assistance to them rather than blind allegiance.

Doug

DGentry
06-08-2011, 04:35 PM
This subject has been brought up numerous times on various forums - often by a person, or persons, clearly hoping to stir up sh*t - and it never fails to become a pointlessly rancorous discussion. The fact remains that, despite what anybody thinks she "should" do, Ms Altenburger runs her business as she can, and as she sees fit.

Alex Pyper - no one here, or on any other forum (other than Ms Altenburger herself), can provide any help in getting your plans faster.

Nuff said.

Except that I like the modified WY, and think either would be a fine canal cruiser for exploring the waterways of Europe, etc.

slidercat
06-08-2011, 06:24 PM
I offer you my sincere apology. I got hot and said things about you which I regret and which I did not have a foundation to make. I am very sorry. Sincerely, Bruce Hallman

Bruce, you are clearly a good person. I applaud your integrity, and thank you for your apology.

I Bin Therbefor
06-08-2011, 07:17 PM
A couple of things.

Bruce, I'm glad to see you are alive and well. I missed your postings. I miss the Topaz Spyder!

Second, Bruce, I'm glad to see your passion. The Abilene Paradox seems to be ruling today. If people can't speak with courage and candor, there's every chance we'll all be heading for Abilene and not know why. I'm also glad to see the dialog continue.

A few things about the Wyoh. She was designed for a man who died before he could build her. As I recall, he had a 150hp outboard that he wanted to use on her. His idea was to be able to get some speed on the inland waterway without destroying everything with a huge wake. Bolger speculated on the use of a box keel but to my knowledge, never drew the plans for one. I could be wrong on that. Bolger also recommended not less than 40hp for a top speed of about 16 mph.

As for buying things from PB&F, I asked via mail for a quote on a minor project several months ago and never recieved a relpy. It is minor and not worth my effort to send another letter, this time with a self addresses and stamped envelope enclosed. I am by nature a hunter. If I wanted something badly enough, my efforts would be directed toward that acquisition. I do not tell someone else how to run their business. I only decide if I wish to do business with that person or entity. Having made the decision to do business, I don't try to dictate the terms of engagement but rather understand and work within the context of the engagement to accomplish my ends.

I do own a set of plans for the Sneakeasy. Bought them in person on a trip through Maine. I am interested in the Topaz Spyder and am watching Bruce's work very closely. I want to see her launched and watch her perform. I have gathered information about the Topaz launches and will probably see one this summer. Should I decide to acquire a set of plans for the Spyder, I will do whatever is necessary to do so.

I share this piece of wisdom from an old Navy Chief, "doing your job even poorly is better than trying to do someone else's job even well".

MarcMelonsees
06-09-2011, 12:02 PM
Hi,

Suzanne told me that if you email or send a letter with "URGENT, LAST REQUEST' it will help to get a quicker reply.

I received from her a set of plans of the Chebacco and another fot the Spartina. In the new word of the internet we tend to be a little bit impatient. I think she do the best she can do at the present time, i waited and i didn't regret it. With my sets of plans she taked the time to send a personnal notes and when i ask her for minors details she quickly responded.

Marc

edells
06-11-2011, 10:37 AM
Hope I'm not speaking out of turn here, or stepping on any toes, but this issue of communicating with PB&F seems to be an ongoing problem. And I'd guess the backlog is probably growing as time goes by. I'm wondering if somebody in the inner PB&F circle couldn't set up a website and automate the ordering of plans. PB&F could set up a Paypal account where payments would go directly into a PB&F bank account. I'm also thinking that they could setup a dropship deal with the printer whereby the printer would receive, print and ship the order and then, via Paypal, bill PB&F. Also on the website there could be a FAQ section to answer all the common question and any 'uncommon' questions could be handled with 'contact info' directing the customer to use the now existing method of USPS mail or a fax.

The intent here is to simplify and ease the burden on Susanne. After being setup, this would require a minimal amount of her time, if any.

Not sure my idea is the right way but there has to be some simple way to automate this process.

Best regards.

Gerarddm
06-11-2011, 10:46 AM
She can't hire an intern or something? How much time does it take?

brucehallman
06-11-2011, 12:26 PM
She can't hire an intern or something? How much time does it take?

The basically already have that for their top 20 homebuilder designs:

http://www.instantboats.com

The question at the top of this thread was for a 51 foot boat!

I think that selling plans for big/complex boats is more complex that sending of a piece of paper. The are always a number of time consuming questions/support/hand holding that are inevitable with the sale of complex plans. That cannot be automated with an intern.

Canoeyawl
06-11-2011, 02:37 PM
I don't think selling boat plans is as simple as selling hamburgers.

Why not? It's just printed material.

If you buy plans from say WoodenBoat Magazine, as sure as the sun comes up those plans will arrive before you can blink.

brucehallman
06-12-2011, 11:46 AM
Why not? It's just printed material.

Two reason I can think of quick: 1) People die in boats. (http://www.kevinadavis.com/lost_at_sea_53517.htm) 2) People get mad and can sue designers for alleged defects in the design.

We might disagree, but one logical business model is to resist selling just paper on a blink. For a long time (it looks to me that) the Bolger business model has leaned towards selling design services as opposed to just moving paper.

Sailor of fortune
10-13-2011, 05:20 PM
When I bought my plans for" Tennessee" , it was about 10 days or so (1995). These were from Bernie Wolfords time selling plans. I bought "Fast Brick" plans from PB&F and if my memory serves me correctly, it was about 10-12 days also (2006).