Human nature and problems with facts

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  • John Smith
    Senior Member
    • Mar 2009
    • 48675

    Human nature and problems with facts

    I had several friends and coworkers over the years that smoked and argued that there was no evidence that smoking is linked to or causes lung cancer. The ones I'm think of all went on to die from lung cancer.

    Rather than quit smoking, they simply picked the facts that fit their purpose.

    Please don't construe this next stuff as a support of New Gingrich, as it's not so much about him as it is about the American public. On "Meet the Press", when he said "radical changes from either side" are not good, it seemed to me one of the more rational statements he's ever made, but it was not what the right wanted to hear, and they quickly showed they would not tolerate it. This in spite of the many polls that show Ryan's budget's attack on Medicare is extremely unpopular.

    Ronald Reagan is a hero to many on the extreme right, and any republican candidate who dared criticize him, even speaking facts, would be doomed politically. People believe what they want to believe about Reagan, and they actually shape his image to fit their beliefs, when his actual record does not.

    We all know people who've been in auto accidents. How often does anyone admit fault?

    Even Giuliani had to make statements politically correct to the extreme right. When he is forced to make statements that we had no terrorists attacks on our soil during Bush's presidency, or he kept us safe for 8 years, something is very wrong.

    Harry Truman said that he told people the truth and it seemed like hell. Maybe that worked then. It won't work now.

    If you tell people the truth, and it is unpleasant or inconvenient, they will destroy your career as a politician.

    In the case of the smoker, his refusal to accept the truth kills him, and maybe those who live with him (our one friend has serious problems from second hand smoke). When it comes to denying that oil is a finite resource, or that Global Warming is happening, their refusal to consider as fact those things they find "inconvenient" prevent all of us from making progress.
    "Banning books in spite of the 1st amendment, but refusing to regulate guns in spite of "well regulated militia' being in the 2nd amendment makes no sense. Can't think of anyone ever shot by a book
  • Bruce Hooke
    Senior Member
    • Mar 2000
    • 14297

    #2
    Re: Human nature and problems with facts

    YES! How true. Although I have to say that a smoker who can convince themselves that smoking is not hazardous to their health is more able to delude themselves that many!

    I heard an interesting analogy made between global warming and slavery. In the 1840's and 50's people in the North and the South in the US knew that slavery was wrong but so many livelyhoods were wrapped up in it that even those who knew they were doing the wrong thing found it hard to change. Keep in mind that it was not just the southern plantation owners whose livelyhoods were wrapped tied to slavery, it was the merchants who supplied these plantations, the sailors and ship owners who transported the cotton from southern ports to places around the globe, and especially to the northern factories that flourished by making cotton fabric from the inexpensive cotton being produced in the south by slave labor.

    Similarly, even those of us who know that global warming is a very serious issue and that major changes are needed find it very hard to change. Many more people find ways to convince themselves that global warming is not a serious issue because the truth and the implications of the truth are too unpleasant.

    Comment

    • LeeG
      Senior Member
      • May 2002
      • 72777

      #3
      Re: Human nature and problems with facts

      oh heck, expanding military adventures, cutting revenues and refusing to invest in domestic infrastructure is a great way to recapture the past.

      Comment

      • seanz
        Resilient?
        • Nov 2006
        • 23662

        #4
        Re: Human nature and problems with facts

        Fuel in the tank today, fuel in the tank tomorrow, therefore, fuel in the tank forever.
        We don't know how lucky we are....

        Comment

        • Phillip Allen
          new member
          • May 2002
          • 63618

          #5
          Re: Human nature and problems with facts

          I always find it interesting that either "one" side believes the delusion is on the "other" side and that they are in possession of the "golden" truth... it is simply amazing
          The doctrine of nonresistance against arbitrary power, and oppression, is absurd, slavish, and destructive of the good and happiness of mankind.
          Personal failures are too important to be trusted to others.

          Comment

          • seanz
            Resilient?
            • Nov 2006
            • 23662

            #6
            Re: Human nature and problems with facts

            I surprised that after all this time you still think there are only two sides.

            We don't know how lucky we are....

            Comment

            • elf
              opinionated crone
              • Sep 2006
              • 19257

              #7
              Re: Human nature and problems with facts

              I'm not.
              A society predicated on the assumption that everyone in it should want to get rich is not well situated to become either ethical or imaginative.

              Photographer of sailing and sailboats
              And other things, too.

              http://www.landsedgephoto.photodeck.com

              Comment

              • seanz
                Resilient?
                • Nov 2006
                • 23662

                #8
                Re: Human nature and problems with facts

                Against all odds I sustain a spark of child-like wonder........


                Wow! That's 10,000 posts for Emily and 9000 posts for me. What an amazing coincidence!

                Time well spent.





                We don't know how lucky we are....

                Comment

                • George Jung
                  Senior Member
                  • Jan 2004
                  • 31057

                  #9
                  Re: Human nature and problems with facts

                  Great thread (well, maybe it's taken a dip), and lots of truth. Smokers 'deniers' 'know', but simply aren't interested/ready to quit. Offering info, non-judgmentally, and free support,

                  has been most effective here - folk don't like to be lectured/ told what to do; they're not looking for 'daddy'. AFA the economy of the south, I try to imagine being born into that

                  situation, and how would I respond? From a distance the answer seems obvious - but when you're up to your eyeballs in it, I'm unsure where I'd even start. That they were able

                  (if you want to call the Civil War 'enabling') to make that change is amazing, but look at what cost. If you try to extrapolate that to our current dilemma, our oil economy,

                  it perhaps provides some insight into just how difficult this change is going to be - and as yet, we're not at war with each other. Maybe this explains the rancour we've seen of

                  late in national / international politics. Food for thought.
                  There's a lot of things they didn't tell me when I signed on with this outfit....

                  Comment

                  • Phillip Allen
                    new member
                    • May 2002
                    • 63618

                    #10
                    Re: Human nature and problems with facts

                    Originally posted by seanz
                    I surprised that after all this time you still think there are only two sides.

                    just terms of convenience...
                    The doctrine of nonresistance against arbitrary power, and oppression, is absurd, slavish, and destructive of the good and happiness of mankind.
                    Personal failures are too important to be trusted to others.

                    Comment

                    • seanz
                      Resilient?
                      • Nov 2006
                      • 23662

                      #11
                      Re: Human nature and problems with facts

                      Originally posted by George Jung
                      Great thread (well, maybe it's taken a dip), and lots of truth. Smokers 'deniers' 'know', but simply aren't interested/ready to quit. Offering info, non-judgmentally, and free support,

                      has been most effective here - folk don't like to be lectured/ told what to do; they're not looking for 'daddy'. AFA the economy of the south, I try to imagine being born into that

                      situation, and how would I respond? From a distance the answer seems obvious - but when you're up to your eyeballs in it, I'm unsure where I'd even start. That they were able

                      (if you want to call the Civil War 'enabling') to make that change is amazing, but look at what cost. If you try to extrapolate that to our current dilemma, our oil economy,

                      it perhaps provides some insight into just how difficult this change is going to be - and as yet, we're not at war with each other. Maybe this explains the rancour we've seen of

                      late in national / international politics. Food for thought.
                      When you imagine being born in the ante-bellum South, are you black or white?

                      Anyway, there doesn't have to be a civil war to enable change.


                      So there's hope yet.


                      Is the anti-smoking focus still on lung-cancer in the US? It's about a lot more than that in Oz and NZ and the warnings on the packs have changed from "Stop it, this is bad for you" to colour pictures of diseased organs. Very graphic.
                      Not nice for us non-smokers at the check-out.........
                      We don't know how lucky we are....

                      Comment

                      • Phillip Allen
                        new member
                        • May 2002
                        • 63618

                        #12
                        Re: Human nature and problems with facts

                        Originally posted by seanz
                        When you imagine being born in the ante-bellum South, are you black or white?

                        Anyway, there doesn't have to be a civil war to enable change.


                        So there's hope yet.


                        Is the anti-smoking focus still on lung-cancer in the US? It's about a lot more than that in Oz and NZ and the warnings on the packs have changed from "Stop it, this is bad for you" to colour pictures of diseased organs. Very graphic.
                        Not nice for us non-smokers at the check-out.........
                        anti-smoking pitch from the government here is only token (there's a joke in there somewhere). There is WAY too much revenue coming from tobacco taxes for ANY politician to want it curtailed very much or even at all!

                        Do you guys grow your own tobacco?
                        The doctrine of nonresistance against arbitrary power, and oppression, is absurd, slavish, and destructive of the good and happiness of mankind.
                        Personal failures are too important to be trusted to others.

                        Comment

                        • aprophet
                          Member
                          • Jul 2009
                          • 45

                          #13
                          Re: Human nature and problems with facts

                          Whose "facts" I have known 103 year old people who smoked dipped snuff and drank hard liquor until they died also ate salt pork for the majority of the protein intake daily. their favorit breakfast was a coupla pieces of toast with bacon grease spread like butter. Things that "Science" claims are "facts" may only be "facts" for some of the population the genetics of individuals have a lot to do with whether "facts" are actually true or not. Kina like the fact that it is impossible for a bumblebee to be able to fly I hope no one ever tells them of this ROFL

                          Comment

                          • George Jung
                            Senior Member
                            • Jan 2004
                            • 31057

                            #14
                            Re: Human nature and problems with facts

                            Without the Civil War, I wonder how that 'change in the economy' would have played out, and on what time frame.

                            Where does downunder get their cigarettes? The packages described sound like the same as here.... though I don't smoke, and haven't seen a pack except on tv.
                            There's a lot of things they didn't tell me when I signed on with this outfit....

                            Comment

                            • Willin'
                              Yeah well, Dedood abides!
                              • Jun 2002
                              • 5259

                              #15
                              Re: Human nature and problems with facts

                              Originally posted by seanz


                              Is the anti-smoking focus still on lung-cancer in the US? It's about a lot more than that in Oz and NZ and the warnings on the packs have changed from "Stop it, this is bad for you" to colour pictures of diseased organs. Very graphic.
                              Not nice for us non-smokers at the check-out.........
                              Actually you guys seem to take a more realistic approach to all your public safety warnings. I recall some really graphic TV campaigns against drinking and driving while living in NZ that turned my stomach.

                              Oh yeah, that talking dog in the Toyota commercial, that one was pretty funny.

                              "Buggah!"

                              Plures Naves Quam Mentes!

                              More Boats Than Brains!

                              Comment

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