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genglandoh
05-03-2011, 11:45 AM
I think we should go on propaganda offensive in the middle east.
The message should be
1. OLB and his followers are a false Muslins who kill other Muslins.
2. OLB is a coward who used his wife as a shield.
3. Freedom is good and growing in the World - this is a sign of gods will.
4. The quality of life in Iraq is getting better everyday.
5. The West is building schools, water systems and the False Muslins are destroying these.

S.V. Airlie
05-03-2011, 11:50 AM
That might be fine, but we still can't relate to the muslim mentality and more than they can relate to ours.

Ian McColgin
05-03-2011, 11:51 AM
Propaganda is nice to the extent that it's true and fatuous otherwise.

We should treat transnational terrorism as a form of international crime to be prosecuted as such and we should dump the "war" metaphore for what we do about transnational terrorism just as we should drop the term for what we do about the ever-corrupting problems of over-illegalized drugs.

On the economic development front, we should detach foreign aid from aid to governments and aid as a form of bribery. We're usually supporting the wrong governments and as bribery it doesn't work as those treacherous buggers don't stay bribed anyway. Rather, aid should go to people with minimal local government expectations and no "love the USA" expectations. We build allies by having other nations grow in democratic strength and economic health and by respecting that those entities have their own interests which are not to be our minions.

S.V. Airlie
05-03-2011, 11:54 AM
Ian the catch is it, do others consider it a crime? We may, but the muslim world may not.

wardd
05-03-2011, 11:56 AM
Propaganda is nice to the extent that it's true and fatuous otherwise.

We should treat transnational terrorism as a form of international crime to be prosecuted as such and we should dump the "war" metaphore for what we do about transnational terrorism just as we should drop the term for what we do about the ever-corrupting problems of over-illegalized drugs.

On the economic development front, we should detach foreign aid from aid to governments and aid as a form of bribery. We're usually supporting the wrong governments and as bribery it doesn't work as those treacherous buggers don't stay bribed anyway. Rather, aid should go to people with minimal local government expectations and no "love the USA" expectations. We build allies by having other nations grow in democratic strength and economic health and by respecting that those entities have their own interests which are not to be our minions.

yes

also open our schools to foreign students from these countries

we should be the worlds educator of the young and our own too

Peerie Maa
05-03-2011, 11:56 AM
I think that propaganda can be seen for what it is.
I believe that it is better to use education and commerce.
Help set up schools, help provide health care and basic utilities. Help set up communications - non commercial radio and newspaper, reporting truth not selling preconceptions.
Set up trade with the farmers and crafts people to bring in revenue and move the money around.
Remove the causes of discontent. Less discontent, less support for terrorism.

genglandoh
05-03-2011, 11:57 AM
Propaganda is nice to the extent that it's true and fatuous otherwise.

We should treat transnational terrorism as a form of international crime to be prosecuted as such and we should dump the "war" metaphore for what we do about transnational terrorism just as we should drop the term for what we do about the ever-corrupting problems of over-illegalized drugs.

On the economic development front, we should detach foreign aid from aid to governments and aid as a form of bribery. We're usually supporting the wrong governments and as bribery it doesn't work as those treacherous buggers don't stay bribed anyway. Rather, aid should go to people with minimal local government expectations and no "love the USA" expectations. We build allies by having other nations grow in democratic strength and economic health and by respecting that those entities have their own interests which are not to be our minions.

In general I agree now that Iraq is mostly stable, OLB is dead, the freedom movement is spreading across the region.
How it the time to move out of the War effort and move to other efforts.

S.V. Airlie
05-03-2011, 11:58 AM
And you don't think the military did not do that in say, Iraq? Rebuilding schools etc. To what end?

TomF
05-03-2011, 12:06 PM
Of course if you educate, you also run the risk that people begin to think. And people won't necessarily understand their own best interests in the way that their benefactors wish they might.

I am all for education, for de-linking aid, for supporting actual reforms which empower people to make their own choices in their own places. The West's not got a great track record on that last bit though, which is part of what's inflamed various against us over the years.

perldog007
05-03-2011, 12:08 PM
After 9/11 one thing that became really clear was our lack of human intel assets "on the ground" Our National Security Agencies have been working on this tirelessly, and progress is being made. We are getting better and better every day, in every way at the art and science of subverting fundamental Islamist social mechanisms.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xDSgEwDKz7U&NR=1

S.V. Airlie
05-03-2011, 12:12 PM
Tom you are assuming that those individuals you are pointing out are 21st century citizens with 21st mindsets... You are talking about a 17th century mentality among the populous as a whole. You can't jump from a 17th century to a twenty fist century mindset in a few decades.,. It is impossible...One can rebuild all the schools the military wants. You can include women among the student body (students) It will not fly...

Bob Adams
05-03-2011, 12:16 PM
Gee, maybe we should develop our own energy sources, get our petrochemicals from coal, and just get the hell out of the Middle East. Let them have at each other.

TomF
05-03-2011, 12:17 PM
Tom you are assuming that those individuals you are pointing out are 21st century citizens with 21st mindsets... You are talking about a 17th century mentality among the populous as a whole. You can't jump from a 17th century to a twenty fist century mindset in a few decades.,. It is impossible...I'm told that in many parts of Africa there's a huge use of cellphone technology, and almost no land-lines. They skipped that part, adapted the newer stuff to their observed needs, and are unencumbered by the liability of aging landline infrastructure.

There's no reason why were a people to perceive it to be in their best interest, centuries of political "development" couldn't be neatly avoided.

"Their" society wouldn't look like "ours," true. That's a good thing.

perldog007
05-03-2011, 12:20 PM
What's the alternative? Ever talk to any apostates? The youth in Egypt is much close to our frequency than say the Muslim Brotherhood. People are people. Sure generations have been raised to this culture, but technology is changing the world. One thing that really struck me as odd was how well the Arab and Israeli expat cab drivers got along in Atlantic City. Take them out of the pressure cooker and many revert back to just being people with astonishing speed.

elf
05-03-2011, 12:20 PM
Stop fighting. At best, figure out how to help without guns, ammo, exploitation, belittling other cultures.

But we can't do that right here in our own country, so I'm not holding my breath.

Just look at the WoodenBoat Forum!

S.V. Airlie
05-03-2011, 12:20 PM
Well, if it works Bob, fine..Cell phones are probably more easily acquired that land lines.. It has nothing at all to do with culture. The ones I mentioned...

genglandoh
05-03-2011, 12:20 PM
Gee, maybe we should develop our own energy sources, get our petrochemicals from coal, and just get the hell out of the Middle East. Let them have at each other.

Your idea is very tempting but I think the US and the West should be helping countries become free.
Yes I am a small Government guy but we as a nation should have a higher purpose.

Even if you do not think we should have a higher purpose helping freedom grow across the world makes the world a safer place.

Bob Adams
05-03-2011, 12:25 PM
Your idea is very tempting but I think the US and the West should be helping countries become free.
Yes I am a small Government guy but we as a nation should have a higher purpose.

Even if you do not think we should have a higher purpose helping freedom grow across the world makes the world a safer place.

They don't see it as being "helped" They see it as being interfered with. They have been fighting in that region since forever. So they shall in the future, only a fool fights an unwinnable fight, we seem to qualify as fools..

perldog007
05-03-2011, 12:28 PM
Your idea is very tempting but I think the US and the West should be helping countries become free.
Yes I am a small Government guy but we as a nation should have a higher purpose.

Even if you do not think we should have a higher purpose helping freedom grow across the world makes the world a safer place.

So why can't we help them be free and take care of ourselves without being dependent on a historically unstable region?

S.V. Airlie
05-03-2011, 12:32 PM
Bottom line, to me, they don't understand the concept. They have been under some dicatator's rule for many years. Their concept of freedom is a bit skewed. They don't understand what it means or what it entails...

genglandoh
05-03-2011, 12:33 PM
So why can't we help them be free and take care of ourselves without being dependent on a historically unstable region?

Reducing our need for buying Middle east Oil would be a good thing.
I just do not want to let them have at each other.

Peerie Maa
05-03-2011, 12:34 PM
They don't see it as being "helped" They see it as being interfered with. They have been fighting in that region since forever. So they shall in the future, only a fool fights an unwinnable fight, we seem to qualify as fools..

It might work. See the history of the Trucial States (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trucial_States). It depends on how you help them.

TomF
05-03-2011, 12:41 PM
So why can't we help them be free and take care of ourselves without being dependent on a historically unstable region?Not to be facetious ... but maybe the freedom we're offering isn't the kind they want.

They've got to be free to define "freedom" they way they want, not the way we want. For all that I've got some damned strong opinions about things like education, treatment of women, human rights etc. that I'd hope they'd come to share.

Freedom isn't really freedom, when you're forcing someone to accept it at the point of a gun.

S.V. Airlie
05-03-2011, 12:45 PM
Sounds like the forum...

genglandoh
05-03-2011, 12:46 PM
Not to be facetious ... but maybe the freedom we're offering isn't the kind they want.

They've got to be free to define "freedom" they way they want, not the way we want. For all that I've got some damned strong opinions about things like education, treatment of women, human rights etc. that I'd hope they'd come to share.

Freedom isn't really freedom, when you're forcing someone to accept it at the point of a gun.

We are not forcing our version of freedom on the people of Iraq.
We are giving them the opportunity for free elections to create the kind of government they want.

Most of the Governments in the Middle East only exist because they go to the Oil first and purchased guns.

I have faith in people I believe people in all areas of the world will do what is best for then.

Power to the people.

LeeG
05-03-2011, 12:49 PM
I think we should go on propaganda offensive in the middle east.
The message should be
1. OLB and his followers are a false Muslins who kill other Muslins.
2. OLB is a coward who used his wife as a shield.
3. Freedom is good and growing in the World - this is a sign of gods will.
4. The quality of life in Iraq is getting better everyday.
5. The West is building schools, water systems and the False Muslins are destroying these.

comic books and laundry soap jingles?

perldog007
05-03-2011, 12:52 PM
Not to be facetious ... but maybe the freedom we're offering isn't the kind they want.

They've got to be free to define "freedom" they way they want, not the way we want. For all that I've got some damned strong opinions about things like education, treatment of women, human rights etc. that I'd hope they'd come to share.

Freedom isn't really freedom, when you're forcing someone to accept it at the point of a gun.

I think you missed my point. I don't believe that "we" are necessarily "helping" because our motive is our own interest ( cheap oil ) So why don't we just concentrate more on producing our own? Don't give me the green mumbo jumbo.

I just don't believe that Brazil, China, Yemen, Libya, etc are going to be more "green" than we are bringing oil out of the ground and delivering it. I think it more likely that our own EPA would do more to lessen environmental impact in our Country. Further I subscribe to the belief that by essentially stopping U.S. (us) from using our own reserves we actually harm the environment more by leaving that task to entities with less oversight. YMMV.

ETA - given the state of the middle east ATM, have they willingly accepted what they've had? Empirical anecdotal evidence extant tends to refute that notion.

Y Bar Ranch
05-03-2011, 12:52 PM
Not to be facetious ... but maybe the freedom we're offering isn't the kind they want.

They've got to be free to define "freedom" they way they want, not the way we want. For all that I've got some damned strong opinions about things like education, treatment of women, human rights etc. that I'd hope they'd come to share.

Freedom isn't really freedom, when you're forcing someone to accept it at the point of a gun.
It seems clearer that in fact they do want what we want, based on events in Tunisia, Egypt, Gulf States, Syria. A universal longing for freedom.

I've never understood why we haven't come out on the side of progressives in Islam. The argument is often made that Islam is not a monolithic religion, that they aren't all fundamentalists like Osama. That arguments swings both ways. Groups like CAIR may not be Al Qaeda, but they aren't progressive either. The progressive Islamists are generally shut out from the mainstream conversation, at least here in the USA.

TomF
05-03-2011, 01:40 PM
I think people in places like the back-and-beyond of Afghanistan certainly want some of what we want, but possibly not other parts. They may want different pieces than, say, Tunisia or Egypt might.

Pretty much every self-identified nation wants self-determination; many within that want things like more say in government, freer markets etc. But things tend to diverge when you start talking social policy, religion, and links to codes of justice.

"Freedom" is a very packed word. As a starter, political theorists talk about "positive freedoms" (i.e. freedom to do something) and "negative freedoms" (i.e. freedom from something). Different groups within our own societies define and rank these things quite differently ... the divergence with other cultures will be even larger.

CWSmith
05-03-2011, 06:07 PM
We should take this time to build new bridges to the Muslim world and do it with respect. We should not be expected to set aside core values any more than we can expect them to do the same. Still, living in peace is the first step to understanding each other.

You might think of the investment in terms of racism in this country. You hardly find it among the young people. You can claim it's because we forced the point, but what won the day was simple shared communication. Young people of different races simply learned to get along. The same can be done here - exchange, trade, and communication open the door.

genglandoh
05-23-2017, 07:21 AM
I think we should go on propaganda offensive in the middle east.
The message should be
1. OLB and his followers are a false Muslins who kill other Muslins.
2. OLB is a coward who used his wife as a shield.
3. Freedom is good and growing in the World - this is a sign of gods will.
4. The quality of life in Iraq is getting better everyday.
5. The West is building schools, water systems and the False Muslims are destroying these.

Trump understands how important it is to portray the Muslim terrorists as false Muslims who are not heroes.
It is a shame that the quality of life has dropped so much since 2011 when I started this thread.

Paul Pless
05-23-2017, 07:26 AM
I think we should go on propaganda offensive in the middle east.
The message should be
1. OLB and his followers are a false Muslins who kill other Muslins.
2. OLB is a coward who used his wife as a shield.
3. Freedom is good and growing in the World - this is a sign of gods will.
4. The quality of life in Iraq is getting better everyday.
5. The West is building schools, water systems and the False Muslins are destroying these.


Maybe we should review the root causes of radicalization first. Then perhaps we could have an informed debate on resetting our foreign policy and our strategy on fighting terrorism.

TomF
05-23-2017, 07:35 AM
Maybe we should review the root causes of radicalization first. Then perhaps we could have an informed debate on resetting our foreign policy and our strategy on fighting terrorism.Oh Paul, I'm sure it will be more effective to do as Trump counselled this morning, and call them "evil losers."

LeeG
05-23-2017, 08:03 AM
Geng, six years ago you said Iraq was mostly stable. How did you come to that opinion? Iraqi Sunni had been hounded out of their homes, Shia militias proliferated. We poured billions through a totally misguided policy that accelerated the growth of anti-West radicalism. I don't see how any person at this stage of history could promote the idea that our propaganda will affect people willing to kill themselves. Especially spoken by Trump with his string of anti-Muslim statements and bone headed travel restrictions.

https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2011/country-chapters/iraq

Repeated attacks by armed groups targeted civilians, exploiting the political stalemate and Sunni Arab discontent. Violence killed and injured hundreds of civilians each month, in one of the worst periods, more than 500 people died in August alone. Assailants targeted government buildings and officials, checkpoints, embassies, hotels, factories, markets, and mosques, as well as people gathered for religious pilgrimages, weddings, and funerals, mainly in Shia areas. Violent attacks have caused civilians to flee, creating internally displaced persons and refugees across borders.

Some refugees who had fled to Syria, Jordan, and Lebanon faced economic pressure and difficulties maintaining legal status abroad and returned home to Iraq. The Iraqi government has no adequate plan for the return of Iraqis who have been displaced internally or those who have fled to neighboring countries. Thousands of displaced persons within Iraq reside in squatter settlements without access to basic necessities such as clean water, electricity, and sanitation. Many are widows with few employment prospects. Their desperate situation has contributed to an increase in sex trafficking and forced prostitution.

The ongoing attacks, along with an abundance of abandoned landmines and cluster munitions, have created a disproportionately high number of persons with physical and mental disabilities, many of whom have not received support for rehabilitation and re-integration into the community.

Reynard38
05-23-2017, 08:27 AM
After 9/11 nobody wanted to ask why it happened. We still don't ask that question. We only reacted to the event.
And no I don't buy into W's BS about them hating our way of life and our "freedom". Geez it's like politics by Toby Keith.

They hate us because we are THERE. Let's not be THERE anymore. Attain energy independence and leave. And this includes Israel.

And I really don't give a rats a$$ if they do "have at each other" as long as they leave us along. I'm sick of the effort, money and mostly the lives we have sacrificed on that ****ehole known as the ME. It just isn't worth it.

Wet Feet
05-23-2017, 08:38 AM
We should take this time to build new bridges to the Muslim world and do it with respect. We should not be expected to set aside core values any more than we can expect them to do the same. Still, living in peace is the first step to understanding each other.

You might think of the investment in terms of racism in this country. You hardly find it among the young people. You can claim it's because we forced the point, but what won the day was simple shared communication. Young people of different races simply learned to get along. The same can be done here - exchange, trade, and communication open the door.

Absolutely right.

The recruitment drive of ISIS and other radicals targets the young marginalized , most vulnerable young people.
I think this is where we are failing.We need to identify our most vulnerable and marginalized young people and give them a hand up.

Keith Wilson
05-23-2017, 08:42 AM
Short version? Verrrry verrrrrry carefully. Start by learning as much as possible about the cultures and people we're dealing with, or listening to those who already know. Think long term. Do less rather than more in most cases, and particularly avoid doing something stupid, or mostly for domestic political reasons. Use military force only when nothing else will do. When you're the 400-pound gorilla in the room, it's easy to make the problem worse (see Bush, George W.).

LeeG
05-23-2017, 09:03 AM
After 9/11 nobody wanted to ask why it happened. We still don't ask that question. We only reacted to the event.
And no I don't buy into W's BS about them hating our way of life and our "freedom". Geez it's like politics by Toby Keith.

They hate us because we are THERE. Let's not be THERE anymore. Attain energy independence and leave. And this includes Israel.

And I really don't give a rats a$$ if they do "have at each other" as long as they leave us along. I'm sick of the effort, money and mostly the lives we have sacrificed on that ****ehole known as the ME. It just isn't worth it.

Ahh, but we have the globe covered in military power and customers of our bigly MIC. Like the former prez of Halliburton Dick Cheney said, "The Middle East is where the prize lays". The MIC is our biggest and most expensive tool for relating to the world so it's important to show how powerful it is.

LeeG
05-23-2017, 09:19 AM
Maybe we can fight it by supporting a fundamentalist monarchy in the Arabian peninsula.


http://time.com/4787797/donald-trump-yemen-saudi-arabia-arms-deal/

When President Donald Trump closed a nearly $110 billion arms deal with Saudi Arabia on Saturday, his deputies’ spirits soared. Policy advisor Jared Kushner high-fived National Security Advisor H.R. McMaster as he entered the room where they held talks with Saudi officials. Aide Gary Cohn told pool reporters the deals represented “a lot of money. Big dollars. Big dollars.”
The weapons sale was one of the largest in history, totaling close to $110 billion worth of tanks, artillery, radar systems, armored personnel carriers, and Blackhawk helicopters. The package also included ships, patrol boats, Patriot missiles, and THAAD missile defense systems.
Much of that military hardware will likely be pressed into service in the Saudi fight against its neighbor Yemen, where more than 10,000 people have been killed over more than two years of heavy airstrikes and fighting.
This puts the U.S. in a precarious ethical position, say human rights groups and former U.S. officials. The Saudi-led airstrike campaign has hit numerous schools, hospitals, factories, and other civilian targets, leading to well-documented allegations of war crimes by human rights organizations. The war has also pushed much of the country to the brink of starvation, with more than 17 million people facing famine, according to the U.N.
“There’s a humanitarian aspect that tends to be ignored. This is something that will come back to bite the Saudis as well, and by implication the Americans, because we’re the ones providing the bombs and bullets,” says Robert Jordan, the former U.S. ambassador to Saudi Arabia appointed by George W. Bush.
....
Trump also mentioned the Saudi offensive in a major speech he gave to regional heads of state in Riyadh on Sunday, counting it as an important effort to combat terrorist groups. Yet international observers say the war has created a power vacuum in which extremist groups like ISIS and al-Qaeda have flourished. “This deal has President Trump throwing gasoline on a house fire and locking the door on his way out,” Amnesty International’s USA branch said of the deal in a statement.

TomF
05-23-2017, 09:27 AM
Maybe we can fight it by supporting a fundamentalist monarchy in the Arabian peninsula.Might not work, but somebody is bound to get rich.

LeeG
05-23-2017, 09:32 AM
[QUOTE=LeeG;5243926]Maybe we can fight it by supporting a fundamentalist monarchy in the Arabian peninsula.[QUOTE]Might not work, but somebody is bound to get rich.

The rich get richer. There's a book about the seizure of the Grand Mosque in 1979 that describes religious zealots declaring they have the new and improved Mahdi to rule the peninsula and depose the House of Saud. How Geng can think words from the POTUS will influence that region is beyond me.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Mosque_seizure

Paul Pless
05-23-2017, 09:38 AM
How Geng can think words from the POTUS will influence that region is beyond me.

I particularly like the way genglandoh sings the praises of us building schools and water systems and such and at the same time he supports an administration who wants to cut foreign aid that pays for these exact programs.

JimD
05-23-2017, 09:40 AM
The arms for oil deal deal with Saudi Arabia has been a cornerstone of the US military petrochemical industrial complex since the 1970s when it was brokered by Nixon/Kissinger in more or less its present form. Neither Washington or Riyadh could care less how many Yemenis die.

amish rob
05-23-2017, 09:43 AM
Domestic terrorism is going to increase here unless conditions here change.

Income disparity is one of the leading recruitment tools. That, and a lack of political power, which kind of goes hand in hand with having money.

The only solutions are so hippy-dippy-trippy-dippy that they will never be employed.

Until everyone on the planet is willing to accept everyone else as an equal and a brother, this mess will continue.

As long as we have flags to rally around, or gods to fight for, or other colors of people to hate because they look and talk differently, well keep poking each other in the eyes, over and over and over.

Peace,
Robert

P.S. Yes, I realize there are "bad" people. I never said we should all be kissing and hugging all the time, but some "bad" people might not act that way if environmental conditions were different for them, eh?

Jim Bow
05-23-2017, 11:43 AM
I'm at a loss. WTF is OLB?

Osborne Russell
05-23-2017, 02:07 PM
yes

also open our schools to foreign students from these countries

we should be the worlds educator of the young and our own too

I miss you, Ward D.

Osborne Russell
05-23-2017, 02:08 PM
I'm at a loss. WTF is OLB?

A type of Muslin.

Dave Hadfield
05-23-2017, 03:10 PM
Give every kid in the Middle East an iPad with free access to the Internet.

amish rob
05-23-2017, 03:22 PM
Give every kid in the Middle East an iPad with free access to the Internet.
Every kid on the planet.:)

Peace,
Robert

skuthorp
05-23-2017, 04:00 PM
Maybe we can fight it by supporting a fundamentalist monarchy in the Arabian peninsula.


http://time.com/4787797/donald-trump-yemen-saudi-arabia-arms-deal/


When President Donald Trump closed a nearly $110 billion arms deal with Saudi Arabia on Saturday, his deputies’ spirits soared. Policy advisor Jared Kushner high-fived National Security Advisor H.R. McMaster as he entered the room where they held talks with Saudi officials. Aide Gary Cohn told pool reporters the deals represented “a lot of money. Big dollars. Big dollars.”
The weapons sale was one of the largest in history, totaling close to $110 billion worth of tanks, artillery, radar systems, armored personnel carriers, and Blackhawk helicopters. The package also included ships, patrol boats, Patriot missiles, and THAAD missile defense systems.
Much of that military hardware will likely be pressed into service in the Saudi fight against its neighbor Yemen, where more than 10,000 people have been killed over more than two years of heavy airstrikes and fighting.
This puts the U.S. in a precarious ethical position, say human rights groups and former U.S. officials. The Saudi-led airstrike campaign has hit numerous schools, hospitals, factories, and other civilian targets, leading to well-documented allegations of war crimes by human rights organizations. The war has also pushed much of the country to the brink of starvation, with more than 17 million people facing famine, according to the U.N.
“There’s a humanitarian aspect that tends to be ignored. This is something that will come back to bite the Saudis as well, and by implication the Americans, because we’re the ones providing the bombs and bullets,” says Robert Jordan, the former U.S. ambassador to Saudi Arabia appointed by George W. Bush.
....
Trump also mentioned the Saudi offensive in a major speech he gave to regional heads of state in Riyadh on Sunday, counting it as an important effort to combat terrorist groups. Yet international observers say the war has created a power vacuum in which extremist groups like ISIS and al-Qaeda have flourished. “This deal has President Trump throwing gasoline on a house fire and locking the door on his way out,” Amnesty International’s USA branch said of the deal in a statement.
What he said, in a word you broke it and so did we by hanging on your coat tails.
We live with the consequences.

JimD
05-23-2017, 04:37 PM
For centuries the West went wherever it wanted, took whatever it wanted, and killed whoever tried to stop us, more or less, never imagining the world could one day be so small all that taking and killing could ever follow us home. Raise your hands if you think throwing another $110 billion worth of death and destruction at the problem is going to solve anything.

Edited to add: Canada recently signed a $15B arms deal with the Saudis so round that up to $125B

Rum_Pirate
05-23-2017, 04:39 PM
Have open borders like the Liberals champion. Right.

Paul Pless
05-23-2017, 04:42 PM
For centuries the West went wherever it wanted, took whatever it wanted, and killed whoever tried to stop us, more or less, never imagining the world could one day be so small all that taking and killing could ever follow us home.

Who knew oil would one day become the driver of the world economy? and that most of that oil, and the best of that oil, and the easiest of that oil to extract would be in the Mid East?

burp

Paul Pless
05-23-2017, 04:43 PM
Edited to add: Canada recently signed a $15B arms deal with the Saudis so round that up to $125B

Canada has a military industrial complex? seriously??

LeeG
05-23-2017, 04:51 PM
Hey Geng, given that 99% of the victims of these Al Qaeda like movements are people in the region you might consider that the idea of fighting them as though they are the most significant threat to us is misguided. You might also review our role in providing their movements with opportunity to thrive whether it's using them as proxies against Russia in Afghanistan in the 80's or creating the conditions for them to thrive after the Iraq invasion. Your often repeated line that Iraq was stabilized by 2010 and gosh darn it Obama created a vacuum by withdrawing troops isn't supported by the facts. It's a fairy tale narrative supporting the idea that the problems in another country are fixed by US military.

Peerie Maa
05-23-2017, 05:07 PM
Give every kid in the Middle East an iPad with free access to the Internet.

Although Geng is paranoid about Islam, his question is bigger than the ME.
How do we combat all of these?
http://www.salon.com/2015/04/07/6_modern_day_christian_terrorist_groups_our_media_ conveniently_ignores_partner/
https://www.thoughtco.com/terrorist-groups-a-list-of-terrorist-groups-by-type-3209111
And others too numerous to search.

LeeG
05-23-2017, 05:16 PM
Who knew oil would one day become the driver of the world economy? and that most of that oil, and the best of that oil, and the easiest of that oil to extract would be in the Mid East?

burp

But, but once the bad govt regulations are taken away energy independence is just around the corner!



https://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/hist/LeafHandler.ashx?n=PET&s=WTTIMUS2&f=W

LeeG
05-23-2017, 05:19 PM
Although Geng is paranoid about Islam, his question is bigger than the ME.
How do we combat all of these?
http://www.salon.com/2015/04/07/6_modern_day_christian_terrorist_groups_our_media_ conveniently_ignores_partner/
https://www.thoughtco.com/terrorist-groups-a-list-of-terrorist-groups-by-type-3209111
And others too numerous to search.

Easy, just as we're convinced we have to drop bombs over there to fight terrists we can invite some foreign power to come over here to engage in counter terrorism in the US. I'm sure China or Turkey knows more about indigenous US groups than the FBI.

LeeG
05-23-2017, 05:21 PM
Have open borders like the Liberals champion. Right.

Oh you must have got that from one of your favorite non partisan sources.

JimD
05-23-2017, 05:25 PM
Who knew oil would one day become the driver of the world economy? and that most of that oil, and the best of that oil, and the easiest of that oil to extract would be in the Mid East?

burpIt was hard to imagine at one time but dang if it didn't happen. And we weren't going to let anyone stop us from getting ours no matter what. And so we did.

JimD
05-23-2017, 05:31 PM
Canada has a military industrial complex? seriously??Something else almost no one foresaw. We like it when the rest of the world thinks we are all about maple syrup, beaver jokes, and being polite - Makes it easier for us to sell armour to the Saudis. That's how we pay for all the Saudi oil imported to eastern Canada. Sure, western Canada is swimming in oil, but most of that goes south to the USA.

LeeG
05-28-2017, 01:28 PM
Here you go Geng, food for thought.

https://theconversation.com/anger-and-youth-fan-flames-of-terror-not-race-and-religion-78360

A lack of confidence in state structures is certainly one such source of frustration. Across the Middle East, states such as Qatar and Saudi Arabia have traditionally sought to address unemployment by creating jobs within the public sector. Yet with huge demographic growth across the Middle East where populations have increased by 53% between 1991 and 2010 – and challenging economic situations – their ability to bring people into the public sector was reduced.

Additionally, drought and other environmental factors have resulted in widespread migration from rural communities to urban centres, itself posing further challenges. Across the region, a relatively young population – 15- to 29-year-olds make up 28% of the Middle East’s population and in Arab countries, 60% of people are under 25 – is facing a challenging and deeply uncertain future.

Rapid demographic change in the region means that by 2020 it is estimated that more than 350m people will be living in countries deemed “vulnerable to conflict”. By 2050, it is estimated that this number will reach 700m. If so, the ability to regulate and protect life will be increasingly challenged. Moreover, changing demographics put additional pressure on state structures to meet basic needs, to provide education and health care across a number of different states.

oznabrag
05-28-2017, 01:40 PM
One of the world's biggest problems is what used to be known as 'Somalia'.

It is now a lawless, violent patch of dirt with no resources and no government.

It is described as a 'Somalia-shaped hole in the map'.

It is a place that is constantly in danger of becoming a major training camp for Islamic Radicalism.

I propose that we send every nutcase Moron who thought Trump was a good idea, along WITH their Moron King and his career-criminal family to go over there and stabilize Somalia.

Think of the swelling of National Pride in their breasts!

They will have a blank slate to work with, where they can run all the no taxes experiments they want, and if they destroy themselves in the process, well, that's the price one pays for rejecting knowledge, AND THEY DON'T GET TO DESTROY THE REST OF US.

skuthorp
05-28-2017, 02:08 PM
Well,I'm inclined to the 'we broke it, so we have some responsibility' view, but most ME based terrorism is Sunni/Sheer conflict, yet our governments and leaders always seem to lump them all together into one amorphous 'Muslim" mass.
Plays well in the media of course, but the differences between Catholic and Protestant in Ireland was understood well enough by the same media and politicians.