Rebuilding my 50' schooner in Nicaragua

[Capt Zatarra]

Howdy Folks
This is my first time to ever post on the WBF, (or any forum for that matter) so if I commit social forum phopa be gentle with me! So here is my story....in 2003 I bought a beautiful classic one off full keel wooden sail boat, carvel planked Alaskian Yellow Cedar on steam bent white oak frames, with Austrialian gum deadwood, DougFir keel, Blue Spruce spars, teak over ply decks, ipe cap rails and stanchions, mahogany interior etc. 17,000lbs ballast (14,000lbs iron punchings and 3,000lbs of concrete) 2 tons of which was internal. So it was love at first sight for me when I went to see her for the first time and then taking her out for our first sail, well let's just say She spoke to me! Any way we (myself, wife and daughter) bought her, moved aboard and started living and cruising full time. The survey, when we bought her said that there were 6 cracked ribs but that they were not bad enough to worry about but keep an eye on them and if they get bigger then repair them. In 2006 we were sailing south on the pacific about 125 nm off shore running from the mother of all storms, it fought up to us at about the 42nd latitude. without boring you with a lot of blow by blow details, I tell you that I spent 28 hours none stop at the wheel, we were doing 14.2knot under bare poles before I took measures to slow us down. We took a tremendous pounding. Rising over waves that were higher then our mast the boat would fall off with such force it tore out most of the cabinets in the boat! The 49,000lb test shakle on the bobstay shattered, I consider myself really blessed that the rig did not come down. Anyway more sea miles a few more storms and a few years later and I hauled out in Nicaragua to replace some planks that got toredos above the bottom paint #%^*+ (mental note raise the boot stripe) redo the bottom paint change the zincs, general maintenance and replace the garb'd that had started to leak. Well when we pulled off the first plank we found every single rib we uncovered Was broken!!! Pulled more planks ...more broken ribs!!! Some broken in 2 and 3 places, all on the hardest part of the curve. I pulled the garb'd and the base of all the ribs where they mortised in to the keel were desiccated away. I decided that I had to replace every single rib. So I waited till the rainy season was over and then hired a old local shipwright (73yrs old) named Juan to work with me and together we plowed into the project. I decided not to go with steamed bent ribs and to double the size of the new ribs, and make them out of Laurel. I hired a wood cutter and he and Juan went into the hills where Juan could show him the curved trunks that would work for making grown ribs. We could get between 4 to 8 ribs to a tree trunk. And for all the traditionalist out there we cut every one with a hand saw and an assortment of adz. Juan can work me into the dirt with an adz. So far we replaced all 128 ribs, I found rot in the 15' long keel horn, we replaced that with Cortez ( Ipe) and we have replaced all the floors with Ipe as well. The deck was teak over ply, of which we discovered that a lot of the ply was bad and had spread rot into the fore deck beams. (a previous owner had done an ugly repair job on several spots on the deck and then painted some sort of thick rubber bumpy coating on the teak sealing it all in and that had allowed blisters of rot to form undetected till they were huge!) We have replaced all the quarter deck beams even though they were good because I it to eliminate the dog house, and now I have an open quarter deck. (one of the modifications I have been planing for a while, a much safer platform to work on the mainsail and a great place to hang out at anchor).
So here is where I can use some help....Nicaragua has some fantastic woods used in boat building. Here is a list of some that are available to me. I'll list them, common spanish name / english name (scientific name) family name.

Caoba /......(Swietenia macrophylla King.) Meliacaea
Cedro macho/ Royal Mahogany(Carapa guianensis) Meliacaea
Cedro real/ ...(Cedrela odorata L.) Meliacaea
Tamarido/ ....(Dialium guianense Aubl.)Caesalpinaceae
Cortez/ Ipe (Tabebuia guayacan Hemsl.) Bignoniaceae
Guanacaste de oreja/....(Enterolobium cyclocarpum Griseb.)Mimosaceae
Guapinol/ Brazilian Cherry....(Hymenaea courbaril L.) Caesalpinaceae
Guayabon/....(Terminalia amazoniaExeli.) Combretaceae
Guayacan/....(Guaiacum sanctum L.) Zygophyllaceae
Jagua/...(Genipa americana L.) Rubiceae
Kerosan/...(Tetragastris panamesis O. Kze) Burseraceae
Laurel/Laurel...(Cordia Alliodora Ruiz) Boraginaceae
Leche Maria/....(Symphonia globulifera L. f.) clusiaceae
Santa Maria/...(Calophyllum brasiliense Camb.) Clusiaceae
Mora/...(Clorophora tintoria L.) Moraceae
Nacascolo/....(Caesalpinia coriaria wilid.) Caesalpinaceae
Nambaro blanco/...(Aspaidosperma megalocarpon Muell.) Apocynaceae
Quebarcho/...(Pithecellobium arboreum L.) Mimosaceae
Roble/...(Tabebuia rosia D. C.) bignoniaceae
Sebo/...(Virola koschnyi Warb.) myristicaceae
Teca/ Teak...(Teciona grandis) verbenaceae

So do any you folks out there have any experience with any of these on your boat or in your shops. Good results or bad. I was thinking of using teak or Santa Maria for the hull planks.(Pardey in his book Hull Construction says that you can add 20% to the boat value if you plank in teak.)Brazilian cherry for the king planks and deck edging (10' wide) and the deck itself with teak. Caoba for the stanchion and roble for the gun'l cap rail.
Thanks for any input and now I'll try to down load some pictures of what I'm doing.....Capt. Zatarra

[JayInOz]

We'd love to see some pictures Captain! Can't help with your Nicaraguan timber species, but "Australian Gum" would be about the same as saying "American Wood"- a big number to pick from:)
Welcome to the forum! It's one of the greatest assets you could ever have at your disposal. JayInOz

[Thad Van Gilder]

Hey capt,
There is teak and there is teak. I use quite a bit of teak of central America, but its not the teak Larry Pardey is talking about. That is old growth asian teak.

-Thad

[Capt Zatarra]

Jay-Australian gum is just the term the builder used when he made a note on what woods he used in the original build, all I can tell you that it is as hard as iron now and has a very wavy grain and still in great shape after over 40 years.
Thad-the teak that is available to me is 30yr old plantation grown. The Santa Maria is 200 or 300 hrs old jungle grown knocked down by the hurrican two years ago.-Capt. Z

[wizbang 13]

I got beat up in the fall of 2006 off Central America too!. Was your bully named "Sergio"?
Not an expert at all on these woods. Wouldn't your local chippy know best? Sounds good to replace steamed oak with grown timber.
Sure would like lots of pics!

[watsongs]

I lived in central Costa Rica for about 4 years, doing timber framing and other natural building. I also have been helping out a friend start his farm up near Rincon de la Vieja. We had some of the same trees as you have in Nicaragua, so I can give you my insight on what we used and how it held up, according to my experience and the locals' wisdom... Granted, none of this is in salt water, but... and it's been a dream of mine to return and build a boat with some of that stuff...

The Tamarindo is beautiful stuff; we used it for foundations, and it's supposed to be good for 30 years in the ground. If you can find some Nispero, same deal. Both are incredibly hard woods, beautiful grain.

The Roble is an equivalent to oak in pretty much all sides - grain appearance, density, etc. It's used a lot for purlins to attach the galvanized roofing to.

Gotta echo Thad on the teak. 30 years in a plantation yields some straight trees, but not a great amount of real heartwood, and they don't seem to make a great distinction sometimes. Keep an eye out.

And stay away from the Guanacaste. It's a cedar relative, apparently, but brittle under stress in my experience. Nasty sawdust; smelly and causes allergic reactions in some people.

Laurel is nice and easy to work with, but I don't think it has the durability for ribs. I'd be wary of that one. And the Seba as well; it's used in furniture, but not regarded as durable outside.

Guapinol, Guachipalin, good stuff. You should be able to get some Cocobolo as well; that's another one used for foundations, so it should be pretty durable. Beautiful stuff.

Pics and updates, please, and when I head back down south, I'll look you up on one of my visa hops -

- Greg

[purri]

Oz gum esp in this use may well be turpentine or ironbark.

[Larks]

Oz gum esp in this use may well be turpentine or ironbark.

Or Tassie Blue Gum? Would that have been exported Purri?

[Dana Marlin]

I also washed up on this coast in my little 30ft Tahiti Ketch about 1.5 months ago - but I am in Guatemala. I have found a place in the river here where I can keep the boat, and also have access to a yard for building and am about to start building a clinker tender and also do some work on my ketch. I found the description of the woods you mentioned very useful as I am also looking into what i should use. All hardwoods here seem to run about 90c/board foot which is absolutely incredible since I am used to prices in Malta. I shall be here for at least 6 months and then will continue on my trip to the Med. I shall follow your progress with interest. Do you monitor any SSB networks?

here are some recent pictures of Guatemala and the river
http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10150172088154002.332080.597214001&l=f4e7990dc1


Dana

[Sailor]

The only Faux pas you've commited is tellins us all about a large schooner and not providing pictures. We LOVE pictures on this forum.

[Capt Zatarra]

http://http://www.flickr.com/photos/62303368@N03/5671216146/

[Capt Zatarra]

http://www.flickr.com/photos/62303368@N03/5671216146/

[Lucky Luke]

I am afraid she may be slightly under-canvassed :rolleyes:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3597/5694376371_4d266f5637.jpg

[Capt Zatarra]

http://www.flickr.com/photos/62303368@N03/5671216146/

I'm attempting to get the photos to show up in my posting, but so far all I have been able to do is get a link to my Flickr account. Can anyone tell me what I'm doing wrong as I have read and studied the instructions in the FAQ several times and still can't seem to get the picture to show up.

[Capt Zatarra]

Lucky how did you do that ....post that picture from my flickr account???????

[Capt Zatarra]

Lucky Luke I have been watching your post with admiration for a while now. You have such a beautiful boat going there! I'd love to be able to work INDOORS and have a crew as well. The design of my boat is based on the Baltimore Clippers and the English all thought that they were over canvased too! When one was captured and taken back to England the lines would be taken off and new one was made with reduce canvas, to English standards and then they wondered why it would not perform! I still have not decided if I will make the main boom that long, that's a lot of over hang!

[purri]

Or Tassie Blue Gum? Would that have been exported Purri?
I'd imagine that any local timber that could bring a dollar o/s would have been "backloaded". From the earliest colonial days (abt 1792) "beefwood" aka Casuarania spp./ sheoak was a prized species among London cabinetmakers and made for fine veneers, soon thereafter Cedrela (Toona australis etc). That trend followed through the C19th and maybe C20th though with much lesser in the C20th. Perhaps there were plantations following the Oz migration to Sth America in the late C19th but this may not follow. I did hear of plantings in arid/semi arid climes (CA and Israel etc) so this may be a result.

Otherwise if the timber was milled in the 1970's it could be anything under the generic term "gum".

[Lucky Luke]

Lucky how did you do that ....post that picture from my flickr account???????

On your flicker account, click on the photo you want to post g> a new page with black background appears, with a little hand showing: left click on the picture g> gives a choice of sizes : chose 600 wide or closest g> the photo appears in a new page : left click on it, and then on "view image info" g> a new little window appears.
Then, on this forum, in the text of your post, write: , then copy the "Location" fom this new little window: for example the text: http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5267/5671216146_78d9deaca7_z.jpg, then write [/IMG} (just replace this last "}" by "]". I had to do that otherwise the programming of this website would have understood that I wanted to show a photo)

That will give: [IMG]http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5267/5671216146_78d9deaca7_z.jpg

[JoshuaIII]

Not to be negative,
but I often wonder when you reach a point that you need so much repair on a boat.
If it's not cheaper, faster and stronger to just build a brand new hull and use the gear of the last boat to install on the new one.

Pretty much like they are doing on the Bluenose right now.

[Capt Zatarra]

Dana- I see from your photos your up north of us, I have only heard horror stories of sailors washing up on the west coast of Guatemala, high fees, more high fees ect. I hope that is not the case for you, when I heard what was going on I sailed past to El Salvador, bahia del sol, it was a great stop we spent 9 months there. How much did they charge to hual you out? and what is your lay days $? Here it's $3.51 per day and $300 for huai out and $150 to go back in. Sorry I had to shut down the SSB when I lowered the mast, no more antenna. I look forward to seeing you get this far south.

LL- thanks for the help. I'll be posting more soon.

JoshuaIII-It's not negative if you are honestly asking. this is a question I had to consider myself with a lot of careful evaluation. Here is my answer to each one of your points one at a time. Cheaper....that would depend on a case by case basis, in this case I don't have to buy a new set of drawings, lofting material, and all the stuff you need when starting over. my keel is still good so just using pardey's book as a rough guide to the time that I would have spent making a new one, I saved about 800 man hours by using my old, but still good keel, and not lofting out a new boat , So 800 man hours equals almost 5 months of work in a shop or boat yard that cost for rent, electricity, ect, and $831 just for the log to make a new keel (thats 756bdft at $1.10 a board ft here in Nicaville.) plus the cost for working drawings that can run several thousand. And you haven't even started on your problem areas yet. I really doubt that you could transfer over to your new hull any equipment that would have been left in place without incurring more cost for the bases nuts and bolts ect, it might not be much but it adds up, not to mention my motor weights 1268lbs I would have to hire a fork lift to move that as well. It all just starts to add additional cost, as opposed to just rebuilding in place. Faster- This is a hard one to answer. If I was rich and could afford to hire out all the work to be done by multiple shipwrights and laborers it would, I'm sure, be faster to build new, but now back in the real world, I already showed in the "cheaper question" I saved 800 man hours by using my keel that I had and not remaking it. On the other hand I did spend a fair amount of time tearing out bad wood and old ribs, but on the other hand I didn't need to build any scaffolding or support structure to hold each rib in place as I built. so you see there is pluses and minuses to each side. I think it is a wash. For my build the speed factor is absolutely controlled by how much money I have, do i have enough money this month for wood and a helper both or just wood and I do it all myself, or worse still no money for wood, or workers, that's when I work on the carvings for the boat. Stronger. This has nothing to do with either building or rebuilding! This has every thing to do with the choice of the builder, will he cut corners to save a buck or will he over build if he sees a potential problem, I could have built a new boat using the exact same dimensions for the ribs as the original and I would still have a weaker boat then what I am doing now with bigger stronger ribs, that will hopefully prevent me from ever breaking a rib again. So my answer is only for my situation and I feel that rebuilding is cheaper, fast as possible, and definitely as strong as a new build. Additionally I have already been sailing this boat for 8 years and I love it and I know exactly what I want to change to make it even better, and what I want to keep the same. All bets are off starting with a new boat. This is the emotional quotient of the question.

[Dana Marlin]

Hey Capt,

I had also heard all the rumors about Guatemala and tried to sail on by (my engine was out of commission) but strangely the winds turned and I was beating into headwinds trying to get to San Salvador. Someone on the Amigo Net suggested that there is a mechanic in Guatemala that can fix my engine so I decided to come and see. Initially I paid the high marina fees of $2/foot/day - but by the third day I hauled out for $300 and paid the yard fees of $100/month. I managed to get a lot done on the boat and also met the mechanic Ziggy. Then my luck changed. Ziggy has been here for 17 years and is mainly responsible for setting up the sport fishing business here - initially he had his yard on the river before the marina was built - since then the yard on the river has been closed. It is really a shame since he has a huge plot of land with a slip and a wooden dock and nothing doing - so he offered it to me to fix back up into a woodworking yard and boatbuilding. We have a wooden sport fisher coming in soon for restoration but in the meantime I am going to work on Melita and build a little tender. The only snag is getting to the yard one has to cross the bar into the river and this can only really be done safely at high slack tide and with a swell below 6ft. Once in the river there is also a power line one must go under - since the Tahiti Ketch has a short rig I managed to do this with a couple feet to spare. On the river I can keep the boat for free. It is exceptionally beautiful here and since most cruisers avoid Guatemala, it is relatively untouched by the cruiser scene. I am the only velero on the river and have become a topic of interest to the shrimpers and panga fishermen. It is very cheap (once you are out of the marina) and people are friendly. I will likely stay for at least 6 months - to one year. I have quite fallen in love with Guatemala so we'll see... I am on route to Malta but am in no particular hurry. I am considering going there via Patagonia. I lost my fickle crew in Mexico and although sailing this coast is not too difficult single handed, I don't relish the idea of negotiating the Patagonia canals alone - so I am on the look out for suitable crew for when I leave here...

Here is Melita on the river:

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5070/5697715079_9d95d7620e.jpg

Your project looks like a mammoth one and you will likely still be at it when I finally leave here - so in that case I shall try to come by and have a look. Please keep the pictures coming. If there is anything you need in Guatemala let me know and perhaps I can help.

Kind regards
Dana

PS - following Lucky Lukes tuition I also got the hang of posting pictures from Flikr - here are a couple of me sailing down the coast...

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3258/5697753223_de59f96544_z.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3157/5697745181_c918d9fe84_z.jpg

[Capt Zatarra]

We had some of the same trees as you have in Nicaragua, so I can give you my insight on what we used and how it held up, according to my experience and the local wisdom....

Gotta echo Thad on the teak. 30 years in a plantation yields some straight trees, but not a great amount of real heartwood, and they don't seem to make a great distinction sometimes. Keep an eye out

Watsong thanks for the feed back. in looking at a possible replacement for teak what do you think of guaybon

[auscruisertom]

Hey Capt.Zatarra looks like a great place to do some rebuilding,and hoping you'l get cruising again in the coming season.Great you guys are able to cruise the countries that many of us missed back in the seventies. My last trip down the coast left Houtolco Mexico and sailed into Puntarenas Costa Rica 6 days later light variables, hand steering for days after autohelm stopped working. Cheers Tom

[Capt Zatarra]

Auscruisertom The world is sure a different place then it was in the seventies, and as near as I can tell cruisers have changed a lot too! We hand steered our entire trip (7000 miles later and i am definently putting some sort of autopilot on the boat before we leave here!) used paper charts, compass, dead reckoning, took a class on how to use a sexton, (have not needed it yet.) By sailing the old way we are the minority, most of the people we have met have motored or motorsailed every where, sailing only when the conditions were perfect. Then acted like they sailed the whole way. And all they talk about is where is the next marina with diesel is. And what GPS way points to put into their high dollar big screen do every thing electronics. Don't get me wrong I love electronics, just can't trust my families life and my boat to it when it is not always right. Well before this creeps in to the bilge I should say something about my rebuild, I cut out more of the old cockpit plywood and now have the area ready for the aft cabin bulkhead, so tomorrow my red lead paint will be here i'll paint the ribs then start on the bulkhead, I'll take pictures and post soon. Capt Z

[JoshuaIII]

Glad to see I am not the only purist around!
On my first boat I've installed for 10 000$ of brand new electronics with everything in fashion...
Not long after I get hit by lightning and lost everything, never again!

Now I use solar panel for lights (With backup oil lamp) and a handheld GPS with it's foggy for too long... The engine was removed some long time ago also... Anyway glad to see another one!

Do you have pictures of your boat before the rebuild?

[auscruisertom]

Hey Capt hand steering for 7000 miles I am impressed ,not an easey task with only three on board. As far as self steering goes both my cruising boats had a windvane and autopilot as a backup ,however I navigated with the use of a sextant. In my case a windvane was essential for long distance cruising, sailing an 30' Albereg frequently singlehanded. Problem with that last trip south was the variable winds sailing during the days under vane but unable to sleep because of extreme heat,then hand steering at night once wind dropped. Annyhow I got real run down,finnally falling fast asleep ,being woken by a Costa Rican fishing boat as wind picked up on 6th day with about 100 meters to go ashore. What is the place your rebuilding your schooner at called? is it on the coast or inland? Good to hear your making progress Cheers Tom

[wizbang 13]

Hand steering for 7000 miles? 3 zombies on a boat.

[JoshuaIII]

Windvane does change the way of living aboard when sailing! You cannot even compare them!
I just had a bad back draft in my wood stove...Can't work in the boat shed Argggg!

[Redeye]

Wow, that's a pretty full rebuild, doing the hard yards alright!

So in summary, New floors, all frames/ribs, some deadwood, new deck, new planking also? How much of the "original" boat will remain? I't certainly a big project and not one to take on lightly. I admire your tenacity!

Well don, she should be beautiful when finished.

R

[Capt Zatarra]

JoshuaIII- ya I'm a purist, and I think it is not something that someone decides to be but something that one becomes through experience and education, sort of like being converted to a religion. I was a really into sailboat racing for many years, always on fast, light, FRP, tupperware boats. (had a good reputation for being a kite man) the more I raced, the more I learned about boats built to beat the rules. Often making boats that killed on corrected time but were skiterish(is that a real word) and down right dangerous in foul weather. Not to mention flog like a dog down wind without a kite to compensate. In studying nautical history I became more aware of what Chapelle referred to as the "rules of the sea" where in design is dictated by the waters you sail in not the racing rules. Then I sailed on a 98 yr old Danish fishing boat that had been converted to a cruiser, she was designed to sail fast (the need to get your fish to market asap) and safe in some really challenging conditions (the north sea). It was built like a fortress and smelled like pine tar, I was hooked. So here I am, lucky as all get out to be alive today when I can have all the lessons from the past on what makes a great sailboat and all the benefits of the present like electric power tools, truck delivered lumber, and bronzed screws ordered on the Internet. Life is good! Capt Z
I looked in on your web page nice set up, GOOD LOOKIN boat! Do you have a time schedule for splash or are you like me just workin' it day by day?
Oh and I'll see if I can round up some pics from when we were sailing, before the tear down.

[Capt Zatarra]

Redeye-Original parts that will remain is the keel, tanks, and the galley (I rebuilt that in Washington state with black walnut and spalded maple) and all the head equipment, that's about it not much left!
7000 mile broken up into many small pieces. It would take about 2 days to get into the swing of sleeping, steering, eating, sleeping, steering.....but most of the time we were able to make short hops 1 to 3 days, between anchorages a few days swimming, surfing, snorkeling, sleeping all night long, and we would start to get to itchin to go again. My favorite passage so far was from Bahia Navidad to Zehatinajo, 125 nm we had a 2 knot current against us, and light winds so with every stitch of canvas up we were only making about 3 knots, that's 1 nm/hr over ground! Anyway I had the sails all balanced so we didn't have to touch the wheel more then 3 or 4 times a day, so we hung out reading, napping, cooking, eating, for FIVE whole days! It was fantastic! I bought a wind vane in Mexico from another sailor, but it could not steer the boat because my cable steering went through about 11 shieves between the wheel and the rudder, creating way to much resistance for the wind vane to over come.

[Capt Zatarra]

Windvane does change the way of living aboard when sailing! You cannot even compare them!
I just had a bad back draft in my wood stove...Can't work in the boat shed Argggg!

Increase the height of your flu outside and it will draw better and have fewer back drafts

[JoshuaIII]

Increase the height of your flu outside and it will draw better and have fewer back drafts

Thanks, it's actually a bad temporary set up I have done to be able to use the shipmate stove in the building area... Would need to spend more time to it!

Thanks for our boat, actually we will splash it the fastest we can, probably next summer. We are homeless now as we cut up the last boat to get the equipment to build this one, Same size different design.

Mainly working 6 days a week on it alone, as one of us need to get money going in! We are working on the hull/rig and a really simple & basic interior, I will bring all my tools onboard so will finish that along the way. During winter the sea freeze here, so I prefer go somewhere warm to finish the inside!

Probably head toward Brazil to finish it, nice wood and cheap there. Sure would like to see your lady getting rebuild and before it.

I've planned to get 2x 12V battery on the boat(For the lights + our computer), There is a lot of good battery powered tool working 24volts now. Throw the battery away and wire it up to the boat battery work great. I have a 12Volt drill like that, no more battery charging and great to work onboard anywhere... Just a idea ;)

Skil saw is next, with a mod to use it as a table saw.

[Capt Zatarra]

JashuaIII- we have 8 zamboni batteries (6volt each) house batteries, wired series/paralell for 12 volt power for lights and frig/freezer. I like the idea of getting rid of the batteries on my rechargable tools as they are almost worthless because they have so little working time per charge. what I have been doing is pulling out my gas generator to power up my 120volt tools. which is what I'm using now for the rebuild. on a different but note but sort of related, I have fantasies of trading my 125hp ford-lyman out for a permanent magnet motor, with more batteries for the motor, just think no noise or exhaust smoke or vibration, and charging the batteries while sailing. and a lot less space taken up in the bilge.

I don't have to worry about the cold here but the rainy season is fast approaching and I have to protect the boat from the rain. it's always something

[Phil Y]

I love this thread. Its all mad buggers in crazy places doing genuine wooden boat stuff. More power to ya.
And good luck.
I've replaced the battery on an old 12v cordless drill with a bit of wire, hook it up to a 12v outlet on the boat, works great.
Phil:)

[JoshuaIII]

Phil: Thanks, I think it's the only scenario where you can take mad as a compliment ;)

Capt Z: Yeah that why I removed my engine, enough of all that. And between you and me I could just not afford one, when you wrote down your maintenance fee on a boat, the engine was on the top 1. Ok I drift more often, but I am at home so what's the difference. Entering Marina is always a bit of a planing, but I stay at anchor 99% of the time...Got a sculling oar for tight maneuver when no wind..

I've meet a few peoples using the electric engine on their boat, the diesel tank was replaced by battery bank so no more place taken. It seemed to work wonderfully, but only for what a engine on a sailboat is for, going in and out harbor. No long powering was possible, which I do not mind as said earlier if you live aboard you are at home so...

At the size of your boat you sure need a alternate power, I can't imagine tacking upwind in a crowded channel with that! And with the amount of canvas yours can take, I am sure she move on the lightest breeze so it would be perfect!

[Capt Zatarra]

Well I'm beat! I just finished removing both fuel tanks. What a job, I have to cut off six inches since I am moving the bulkhead forward about a foot. After seeing all the room that is left after they were taken out, I realized 400 gallons takes up a lot of room, and I could but in 2 large battery banks and put storage space over the top or 2 berths over them and have more usable space. I really don't like sound, smell, vibrations, all the hassle of oil changes, fuel filters, bleeding lines, getting in and out of fuel docks, and most of all the money that is sucked out of my pocket when I fuel up! So I was looking at the Asmo motor, the only problem is their largest one seems a little small it says in this page that it replaces 40 to60hp motors http://www.asmomarine.com/2005/asmo_uk/pdfs/Asmo_Marine_THOOSA_17000.pdf the other thing that worries me I want the power to get me out of trouble if I need it, like getting off a lee shore in a storm, or powering away from a tanker charging down on me, all this that has happened to me before, and what ever may need me to kick it in the stern and get out of there! But the idea of charging the batteries while sailing from the prop turning sounds fantastic, and the times that i have anchored in rivers like when I was in El Salvador, the current would have been charging up my The biggest factor is finding the right motor and figuring out how to pay for it!!!! Anyway back to the wood part of wood part of this rebuild, It took 2 tries but the paint store finally got my red lead paint for me and now the boat is half painted its looking great and I should have some 1 inch thick Brazilian cherry here tomorrow to start building the first bulkheads and over that I'm going to put a guayabon paneling in the Louis XIV style. Guayabon is a cinnamon and butter yellow colored stripped wood it should look good all varnished up. And I'm getting more laurel for more deck frames. I'll take some pics and try posting them again. Capt. Z
One more thought I have been thinking about attaching the bulkheads with glue and treenails, trunells how ever you spell it any thoughts on this?

[JoshuaIII]

Nice to ear from you Capt!
The best bet for go away from a lee shore on a storm and getting out of the way of a tanker without a diesel engine, would be to invest on good sails! If you boat go well upwind and in light wind, with good sails it will go even better and be able to get out of problem.... It's a sailboat after all...

But that's me...If the boat can't go well upwind... Well there is no solution.
My last 36ft trimaran didn't have engine and was not able to go upwind at all. A North wind I was going East or West with every combinations of sails I could do. Sometime at 1 miles of the final anchorage, the wind shifted and needed to sail 4 days toward another island because of the damn wind, or tacking for days in front a inlet waiting for a wind shift... I don't want to ear nobody saying now "Where ever the wind take me" And it's not fun at all!

[CaptainChuck II]

If I could get a little more detail on costs, that would be a great help. I have a 60' wood power boat 70' overall x 18' wide. I want to remodel the lower deck so I built a temp house on the upper deck 14' x 14' x 8' tall. I will live in that until the lower can be done. What can expect if I bring it to a boat yard in Honduras, or Guatemala (were only talking East Coast) or Mexico, Costa Rica...? I don't know where to take it, Haiti, Cuba? I want of course to find good craftsmen that of course know what they are doing. I am very low budget, so it all matters. I am wondering if I can get by with $20,000 and how long should it take, I know I know it all depends. But can I get 3 4 people all working at the same time and can one worker be a foreman I can communicate with? Thanks for any help. 'Splash of Lime" I don't know how yet to post pictures, I have been asking how for only 3 months, thanks. P.S. I want to leave here out of Mississippi very soon before June and Hurricaine season to head south,

[CaptainChuck II]

P.S. Splash of lime. You can see my boat at: http://cruisingwaterworld.com/70.html (http://crusingwaterworld.com/70.html)

[CaptainChuck II]

P.S. Splash of Lime. Bad typing on my part, sorry: http://cruisingwaterworld.com/70.html

[Capt Zatarra]

So another day and more paint splashed on the ribs and waiting for my wood to arrive, deadlines in this country are a fluid concept. Sorry No pictures today. I'll take some tomorrow for sure but I wanted to respond to a few of your post.
JoshuaIII- I know what you mean and I agree BUT I think of my motor as my insurance policy so to speak to save me when things go wrong. I have read so many stories from the days of iron men and wooden boats, of everything from small schooners to big ol' clipper ships wrecking after getting cought in a bad situation. I sailed for several weeks without a motor in Mexico. I only missed it when we were sailing into Acupolco bay. The wind was a lovers whisper in the dark, so we were ghosting along with everything including our pocket handkerchiefs up. It was first light, as we intered the bay, the cliffs to the south were blocking that tiny bit of wind, such that our sail collapsed and hung limp as laundry in the doldrums. The tide had just turned and was flushing out the bay, so as soon our momentum would die we would start going backwards back out to sea. When we would get clear of the cliffs our sails would fill and we could make way again. Six times we tried to make our way in to the bay only to get flushed out each time. I had decided to launch the Whitehall and try to row us in, I had done it before and it wasn't easy. Just then a garbage boat came by and ask us if we had any coca-cola. I ask if they could tow us just 400 yards to the anchorage that was so close yet so unreachable. They gladly towed us in and even towed us backwards after we dropped the anchor to lay out the chain and set the anchor. We gave each of the four guys on board a tall ship tee shirt and an ice cold coke. Every morning for the rest of the time we were there they would go by in the morning shouting holas and pointing at their matching tee shirts. I may not use it much but I like knowing it there!
CaptainChuckII- here's what I can tell you about the cost of doing boat work here in San Juan del Sur Nicaragua ....haul out $300....going back in $150 it doesn't mater how big you are it is all the same but they can only lift up to 25 tons, it was all the crane could do to lift my boat out! Shipwrights get $20/day. Carpenters-$10/day. Caulkers-$10/day. Painters-$8.50/day. Unskilled laborers-$5/day. The haul out on the east coast at Pearl Lagoon was less then here when I was there last year and lay days were free if no one needed the ways. I spent a day there watching the guys work and talking boat building with the shipwright and his crew/family. All the fishing boats are wood, and some look like they could be 50tons. The boats are hauled out on ways that are several hundred years old. When I was there six guys grabbed capstan bars and put them in a capstan that was about 4.5' tall and started singing and turning the capstan hauling the boat back down the ways, into the water. They told me that the capstan had come off a sailing ship that had wreaked there over 200 years ago. Earlier I had watched as they replaced a hull plank that was over 2" thick, they really knew there stuff....About other parts of central America .....Costa Rico, well around here we half jokingly call it Costa Too Mucho. We get four or five boats a year coming here to haul out and save money, especially if they are planing a big job. I've heard good things about Rio Dulce in Honduras. There are several marinas there, google them. Hope that helps oh and if you come down buy all your bronze nuts and bolts, screws, ring shank boat nails, the same for any stainless steel fastenings. And if your going to use resorcinol glue buy it there because it's not available here. Other glues are here.
Hope that helps. Capt. Z

[Capt Zatarra]

So here is an updated picture with paint
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3445/5743561605_4690694be9.jpg

[Capt Zatarra]

Ok that didn't work, any one know why I got that little blue square instead of my picture? Capt.Z

[P.L.Lenihan]

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5188/5671123468_31b29debee_b.jpg








What a fantastic and huge undertaking! I wish you every bit of luck you need to see her through to the end.
I love the coat of arms for this boat too! :)


Cheers!

Peter

[P.L.Lenihan]

So here is an updated picture with paint http://www.flickr.com/photos/62303368@N03/5743555105/sizes/m/in/photostream/


Here you go Capt.Z. She is looking bigger and better!! Incredible!

Cheers!


Peter

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2657/5743555105_e08f6ac242_b.jpg

[Phil Y]

Can't wait to see the planks going back on. Good work.
Phil

[chuckt]

Wow! Those prices are incredible. If one had a big job like yours it sure would be worth it to get the boat there.

Looked up your location on google Earth. Looks like a fantastic place--a bit remote . . . Cool looking beaches. When you get the pic posting figured out, give us some shots of the local scenery. Lots of small craft in the harbor there--what accounts for all the activity?

[Capt Zatarra]

This week more new deck beams then the bulkheads before the planks go on. I may plank the deck before the hull. The activity you see is fishing. This town has been a fishing village for hundreds of years, as well as a ship building port for the Spanish in the 1600 and 1700's, story's say over 200 ships right here. Then again in the 1800 for shipping fruit to California. I post some pictures of the bay for ya and some of the local fishing boats ( their all wood,) if you would like me to. Capt. Z

[JoshuaIII]

Paint the 2 minutes job that make everything look better.

It always make me laught, as you do a job, some people will come by and look at it like a piece of "shyt", next day they pass by one the paint or varnish is on and they are amaze how beautiful & strong it look like... I guess for certain person the paint is what hold the boat together ;)

[Capt Zatarra]

well its been a week since I checked in, we have splashed 7 gallons of red lead paint on so far and still need another gallon I will pick it up tomorrow. I got a new delivery of wood, I'll post pictures tomorrow if I can, there is brazilian cherry for the mast step and for the bulkheads, 27 inches wide planks!! After I unload it we are going into the big city to see the new "Pirates of the Caribbean" movie for a day off. i am now framing in the new cockpit as I am making it smaller then it was before and less deep. pictures soon.
Capt. Z

[Capt Zatarra]

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5308/5788717006_83971aba4d.jpg here is a plank of laurel I am starting to saw. The board next to it is the pattern board for the curve of the deck.

[Capt Zatarra]

Is this problem of not getting my pictures to come through (I only got a question mark in a box) because I am using an iPad? Did the picture come through for any one?

[Capt Zatarra]

Ok I think I got it now let's try again here is my hands sawing the plankhttp://farm6.staticflickr.com/5268/5788155091_29a3694ae9_z.jpg

[Capt Zatarra]

Now I'm really confused the pictures showed up in my post after I figured out that I was getting a double http// thingy. So the picture showed up in my post and in my review post but when I posted my third picture post , all three three went away! What's up here?

Really really confused now there all back??? Capt. Z
Let's try again!

[Tom Freeman]

I can see the pictures in your most recent posts.

[Capt Zatarra]

Here is the planks sawn up, 2 deck beams ready for sanding and then, installed http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2458/5788649616_698cc3b626_z.jpg

The arc is facing the ground. The camera is adding more curve then is really there.

[Capt Zatarra]

So now the deck beam is installed and it's time to cut a notch for the carlin. http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3489/5788087557_0ffbc37f1e.jpg

So I think you would call this a "blind half dove tail" is there a different name for it in the boatbuilding world? There is 3/4" lip at the bottom of the notch that is not showing up well in the picture.

http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2697/5788080537_d07cd4607f_z.jpg
Here's another view

[Capt Zatarra]

Now it's time to cut the the half dove tail
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2295/5788074013_793e292c00.jpg
A little more cutting and we are getting close
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2073/5788615122_0a4ccd2c94.jpg

[Capt Zatarra]

Test fit....very tight...I'll shave just about two of three paper thin curls off the straight side with the plane ahhhh! Yea!http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2240/5788602660_bdd2a10eaf.jpg
My batteries in my camera just died so the final fit picture will have to wait till tomorrow!

[George Ray]

Nice!

[JoshuaIII]

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2073/5788615122_0a4ccd2c94.jpg

You only realize the size of it on this one, with the hand of the guy. Nice work... Paint make everything look better isn't :)
Where you guy live during this rebuild? Found a nice little shack close to the building?

[chuckt]

Keep up the pics man. Love it.

[Capt Zatarra]

So here it is fit together, the black line is a shadow, not a gap!
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2716/5795214186_773cdd991b.jpg

Here is the side view, sorry I got too close with the camera and made it blurry
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3529/5795218428_6a6450d18f.jpg

[Capt Zatarra]

And what are these joints for?
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3323/5795222952_7475b1d9ff.jpg
The new cockpit!
And yes JashuaIII ever since I painted it every one is telling me how much progress I've made. I guess none of it is real till it's red!:mad:
So to answer your question, since your looking at the aft cabin below these deck beams, we had to moved off the boat to a little place right outside the boat yard.

[Capt Zatarra]

So I promised pictures of brazilian cherry, here it is in all it's glory
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5120/5794644467_65a50f7af9.jpg
12 feet long and wwwait for it....
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3074/5794648527_f2f2b39b12.jpg
25 incredible inches wide

[Capt Zatarra]

I used to have a worm drive skilsaw and about five years ago I was working on a project on deck when a wave moved the boat enough that the saw rolled across the deck and into the ocean F#¥£€%#!! so I price out a new one and decided that I could wait till I really needed a new one, since my back saw and my hand saw could handle what ever I had to do. Until I met thishttp://farm3.static.flickr.com/2238/5795237436_dcd1f48918.jpg
Well not just this but stacks and stacks of this! We (my local boatbuilding friend, Juan, and I) have been cutting these by hand and it was taking some time, till one day a tool salesman came by and I bought a skilsaw from them. The look on Juan's face says it all
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3050/5788101733_9718d831d4.jpg
The skilsaw can only cut about half way through the planks so we have to cut the rest with a second pass with the hand saw but it sure speeds things up! Capt. Z

[Capt Zatarra]

Chuckt a week ago you ask for some pics of the place when I got the system worked out. Well I've got it nailed now! Here is a few...this is the boat yard, if you look close you can see the bowsprit of my wooden Lady just above the letter 'U' in JUANhttp://farm3.static.flickr.com/2544/5795265828_b801dbde27.jpg
And this is looking out at the anchorage in front of the boat yard
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2641/5794713663_b42b57eb8a.jpg

[chuckt]

Beautiful place! I'm enjoying watching the work. Keep up the posting.

[kewlrunninz]

great pics. Capt Z...after your reply I am considering PROVIDENCE should be after you...best o luck

[Capt Zatarra]

Really important question here... I seem to have bought up all the red lead paint in Nicaragua and El Salvador, and still need more, I have feelers out trying to find more. But if I can not find any, what is a good substitute? Aluminum base anti corrosion paint? Zinc based anticorrosion paint? Anti fungus oil wood treatment? Should I post this on it's own thread? Will more guys see it if but it in it own post?
Thanks every one Capt.z

[J.Madison]

If you can find lead tetroxide powder (PbO4) you can easily make red lead paint. Fireworks manufacturers is where I got mine but I think ceramics places may have it too. That may be your best bet.

[JoshuaIII]

Just as Madison said, try to find the powder and make you own. This is what me and Madison do, red lead and the powder are considered chemical so a pain for shipping across border.

[Capt Zatarra]

So here is my Friday night update. The painter I had painting is such a good worker, I ask him if he needed more work and would he like to work as helper for the project. And he said yes. So he is my new strong back for me (I have broken my back in the resent past, and it's not what it used to be) and my Nica shipbuilder (who happens to be 73 yrs old could use a hand too). So we got the GIANT mast step cut out and sanded. It is 7feet by 4inches by 25inches and will rest on 9 frames! My idea was to have it as part of the sole all sanded and polished and integrated into the over all pattern that you will see when you inter the forward berth. So it took 6 guys to lift it up and pass it through the ribs, it must weight over 400 lbs. And then it took a lot longer to mark out and carve where the resses are cut for the floors to go then I thought it would take. We are still tuning it in. Hopefully we will finish it Monday and can bolt it down, other wise I have been sanding down the planks that make up the bulk heads, they are rough sawn brazillian cherry in the picture above and boy are they hard.
So I thought of something while I was sanding (lot of work for the hands nothing for the mind) what about water/fuel tank bulkheads? Make the 2 bulkheads 6 inches apart put a tank in-between it would be barely noticeable but a bulkhead done like this on my boat could hold about 300 gallons. So I understand that part of the weight would be higher then it is in my current design but part of it would be lower as well, a rough calculation is that 130 gallons would be above the height of the old tank. That's 900 lbs albeit it is distributed from zero point on up, and that is counter balanced by about 40 gallons lower then the old tank, that's 280 lbs. Subtracted from the 900 lbs and you have still have 620 lbs of higher weight then you had before. Is this going to be noticeable on a 22 ton sail boat. What do the Naval architect out there think of this idea? If the weight is a problem! I could just take the tank up to the old tank height and put a cabinet or a secret compartment above that. Hay! a hidden flat screen tv to watch my Horatio Hornblower collection on when I'm at anchor. I have have 2 fuel tanks 75 gallons each and 2 water tanks 175 gallons each. Please let me know what you guys think of this idea. Tomorrow morning I am helping a cruiser haul out and then I'm going sailing with the local sea scouts. Then it's back to sanding. Later folks. Capt. Z

[JoshuaIII]

Nice to get news Capt... And you got help for your back... I also got back problem... To make long story short, been kick out by the authorities in Gibraltar because they decided to build a new marina (Without notice). Anchor stuck without windlass, moved disks in my spine. 36 hours later, the worst storm in Gibraltar hit, boat getting knock down in anchorage(Another one more open), 2 cargo ship finished on the rock... So needed to move the boat(Back to the now illegal but protected anchorage) and pull the anchor again with my broken spine... Didn't help...

Since then every day I have to make exercise to make my life a bit better... Windlass always onboard now :)
Take care to don't overweight your boat, so it stay in is designed lines. As you already put bigger frames, heavy mast step, take care to don't get too massive planking etc... Strong is good, but it sail like a brick ;)

Have fun, I felt like story telling this morning :D

[George Ray]

I think the issue with tanks is as much or more the "free surface" effect (sloshing) as the height. IF you can baffle the tank to prevent thwart-ships motion of the fluid in this tall,wide, but short in fore-aft dimension tank it could be a real winner. Hopefully a NA will chime in here.

Meanwhile I think 'free surface' is the term to google and to get you started here is link to Dave Gerr's thoughts on the topic in his book "Boat Mechanical Systems Handbook":
http://books.google.com/books?id=euQZ16elT5kC&pg=PA97&lpg=PA97&dq=boat+tank+%22free+surface%22&source=bl&ots=dnQBHIAkQs&sig=OiQ55jgPelf4raC5_gxJRIcwYjM&hl=en&ei=IJfzTYKFJ8L1gAfL_KTgCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&sqi=2&ved=0CEoQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=boat%20tank%20%22free%20surface%22&f=false

[George Ray]

Red Lead Primer substitute ??
A question best asked of folks that are doing a lot of this kind of work.

One place is IRYS ...
http://www.iyrs.org/aboutus/staff/tabid/141/default.aspx

I got a chance to visit last year when a delivery finished up in Newport.
This is one of their current restorations ... Coronet !
http://iyrs.org/Portals/0/images/images_about_projects5.jpg
http://iyrs.org/Portals/0/images/Coronet%201%20-web.jpg
http://iyrs.org/Portals/0/Uploads/Images/images/images_about_projects9.jpg

[JoshuaIII]

Interesting about the water tanks... I also wonder why you say for short in fore & aft and long in width... A boat roll more often, so seems like sloshing will occur more in the width then in the fore & aft direction....Or I am lost somewhere...

Some people use Antifooling to replace red lead... I am highly against it. Go on a shipyard, rub your hand on the hull of boats, see how the antifooling turn to fine dust and stick to your hand. Imagine now that toxic paint drying inside your boat, turning to dust and you breathing full time as living aboard, this paint made to kill all living organism...

Maybe put some zinc poison inside, then cover with oil paint would work good... Copper napthenate stink inside a boat...

[George Ray]

I agree with you about roll & slosh . . . . . that's why I wrote .
IF you can baffle the tank to prevent thwart-ships motion of the fluid

[Capt Zatarra]

I had been thinking baffles all along as I would never think of a tank on a boat with out them, I just type much slower then I think. As the sanding wore on into hours, I imagined separate cells say six inches wide with connecting lines at the bottom with a pump to move the water from cell to cell for water ballast trimming. But that was just sanding dust induced hallucinations.
On the other hand....

George Ray, thanks for the lead on "free surface affect". Gerr said in the book that narrow athwartship and long and low is better BUT athwartship if it be less then 20% of over all beam and Less then 12% of displacement ye have negated the free surface effect! So then if I were to simply make it in sections that are less then 20% say 6 sections or tanks that would make it 16.6% of beam and the weight we are talking about here is only 4% of displacement on my boat so in theory it is less then negligible??? I'm only guessing here crunching numbers and sniffing sanding dust. Does this sound right to any one? This still has weight up high that does effect righting movement so it appears that that will have an effect although we are only talking about 2% of displacement that is higher then it was before. How much does 2% differance make? If it makes a noticeable difference I can make the six athwartship tanks (with baffles) half the height of the bulkhead and 12 inches thick and put cabinets and book shelves above them. How does that sound?

JoshuaIII I hear you. I am always thinking about the weight of the boat, but it doesn't hurt to be reminded. I removed 4000 pounds of internal ballast that was cemented into the bilge in order to replace the floors, when we refloat the boat I will return the internal ballast minus the weight of the mast bases so it should be the same and the larger ribs will displace a little more water giving a little flotation countering the effects slightly and laurel weights a little less then white oak, so my ballpark figure is that it is not altered to much. I'm also wanting to put on more batteries and I have been dreaming up ways to have them in a water proof box down in the bilge maybe as part of that 4000 pounds of ballast. This will need more sanding time to work this out!
About the back problems with the anchor, several years ago my wife decide that raising the anchor was good exercise and has been doing it all by herself since then, and we have a manual windless, but we should call it manually winded because it is a work out, hauling in 300 feet of 3/8BBB and two anchors, a 25 pound fisherman, and a 50 pound CQR, on the same chain. I've been carrying an old rebuilt electric Doc Freeman windless in my sail locker for 5 years and have not been inclined to install it because SWMBO didn't want too! And I don't raise the anchor so I'm cool. So I'll get some pictures tomorrow and post my progress. Capt. Z

[kewlrunninz]

soooo Capt. Z... I wonder if your Juan could deal with a vessel like PROVIDENCE..67ton disp. with 21/2" planking, covering boards 3" by avge. 11". Been thinking about maybe filling your spot after you launch ? I Have ALL necessary tools including tablesaw aboard. Oakum, 5" ship spikes and pretty much all that would be needed to do some extensive wood replacement. Here's my addy if you prefer peterprovidence@telus.net

[Capt Zatarra]

soooo Capt. Z... I wonder if your Juan could deal with a vessel like PROVIDENCE..67ton disp. with 21/2" planking, covering boards 3" by avge. 11". Been thinking about maybe filling your spot after you launch ? I Have ALL necessary tools including tablesaw aboard. Oakum, 5" ship spikes and pretty much all that would be needed to do some extensive wood replacement. Here's my addy if you prefer peterprovidence@telus.net

Sooooo Kewlrunninz .......Juan could and has worked on boats that size and there are others here who are doing fishing boats that size now just across the way from mine. I keep thinking about slipping across the fence and seeing if I can get some close up pictures of their build before it is all done. About Juan working on yours.....Juan has told me that if we donn't work faster he might not live long enough to see it done! To which I told him that the is not allowed to die before we are done, because he is the only one who understands my terrible Spanish and can figure out what I want.
Capt. Z

[The OP]

Hi Capt Z,
You have a lovely project there! I was wondering if I could use pictures of your fine vessel as an example of what other people restore/re-build when people say to me (I own a 93 year old wooden working boat) 'You got yourself a lot of work there' accompanied with a sharp intake of breath! :d I look forward to seeing more of your project as time passes.
Matt...

[Capt Zatarra]

Hi Capt Z,
You have a lovely project there! I was wondering if I could use pictures of your fine vessel as an example of what other people restore/re-build when people say to me (I own a 93 year old wooden working boat) 'You got yourself a lot of work there' accompanied with a sharp intake of breath! :d I look forward to seeing more of your project as time passes.
Matt...

Absolutely. In fact when one of the evil nay-saying lookee-lues come around the docks with their condescending remarks and baleful eyes, you thrust it out before them, like Van Hellsing with his silver cross before a vampire, and say "BACK you plastic boat loving spawn of a BarcaLounger! BACK to your sterile world of reality tv and instant gratification, you poor miserable creature who can not start a 500 piece jigsaw puzzle because it would take to long! Much less under stand the the likes of one such as I and my fellow boatbuilders who conceive of wooden dreams and make them flesh and keel, paddle and sail, Begone before I sprinkle sawdust and paint chips on your spotless docksiders and have you kicked out of your hoo dee toy dee yacht club for evidence of having done something your self. Begone you........

At this point the they will be gone, running down the dock throwing worried glances back over their shoulder. This dockside exorcism works so well that these lost souls will never bother you again, or even stop to look at your boat if your anywhere near. Good luck Capt. Z

[johngsandusky]

Laughing! I'm going to remember that.

[Capt Zatarra]

So when your boat build is outside in the tropics it is always wise to be aware of your fingers when getting a new board from the wood pile
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2749/5834240475_f000ab5156.jpg
Capt. Z

[Capt Zatarra]

So today we finished fitting the mast base and drilled through it and the floor timbers and the keel. The smell of the different woods as you drill into them is one of these little things I alway like. Then Painting the bolts with anticorrosion goo and then wrapping the cotton string saturated in more goo and threading on the nut through all that sticky stinky goo, sort of nullifies the affect!
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3444/5834797078_e9c0c7eab2.jpg
Tomorrow I'll post some pictures of the process and the base in place
Capt. Z

[Larks]

Nice job Z, but what's with the mild steel reo' bar running between the bolts there??

[Capt Zatarra]

Nice job Z, but what's with the mild steel reo' bar running between the bolts there??

That is the rebar from the old concrete and iron ballast, it will be removed eventually, but it is way down the list. Before that install second mast step, install bulkheads, deck the deck, plank the hull then finally rebuild the ballast, not too much really wouldn't ya say?
Capt. Z

[Larks]

That is the rebar from the old concrete and iron ballast, it will be removed eventually, but it is way down the list. Before that install second mast step, install bulkheads, deck the deck, plank the hull then finally rebuild the ballast, not too much really wouldn't ya say?
Capt. Z
Not when you say it quickly enough like that. What will you do for the new ballast?

[Capt Zatarra]

My plan right now is to rebuild the ballast by cleaning up the iron by tumbling it in a cement mixer coating it in an anticorrosive coating then mixing it with cement and injecting it into a steal box mounted to the keel. The box will be built on to the keel with an half inch steal plate for the bottom, just in case I ever bump the bottom or decide to creen her on the beach AGAIN! And the walls will be about 16 gauge hot rolled steal. My ballast weights 17,000 pounds that would break the bank to buy the lead for this. Here is a couple of pic of the old ballast as I have been chipping away at it.
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5184/5671127318_f05855f764.jpg
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5027/5670556647_7cc420bb00.jpg
You can see that it is almost entirely iron punchings. These came from the old iron bridge just on the north end of Seattle WA. When the bridge was built in 1966-7. Capt. Z

[JoshuaIII]

You should keep a pan close to the building... Fried scorpion with a cold beer is sure a delight at the end of a longgg day :)

The eyes that I see in that fur, the one with the orange shirt, is you I guess? :)
Just teasing... I miss my big beard actually... But my wife was having some issue with it, as always finding wood chip and some food in it ... Which was convenient!

[Capt Zatarra]

Yep tha's me! I have to tell you, now that you mention it, a local guy won a talent show at one of the beach bars here by eating 5 LIVE scorpions! He said the cold beers were essential BEFORE eating scorpions! Capt. Z

[chuckt]

That is one interesting ballast. Such ingenuity and resourcefullness

[JoshuaIII]

Yep tha's me! I have to tell you, now that you mention it, a local guy won a talent show at one of the beach bars here by eating 5 LIVE scorpions! He said the cold beers were essential BEFORE eating scorpions! Capt. Z

Is that can be considered a talent? :D
Do you think be ready to go back cruising by next year?

[Capt Zatarra]

For me it is not a talent at all, more like drunken dare! Now the belly dancer...... Aahhhh yes..... she got my vote!! About when will I be ready to get back to sea (I'M READY NOW) the boat on the other hand,,,, well if I can keep up this pace of work I'd like to think so....although some of the ideas I have for the interior might take a little longer to complete, like making all the hinges for the cabinetry out of wood. And the sinks and the counter top in the head and the galley, I plan on carving out of a single block of wood. Although on the other hand I have thought to save some of the interior work for a different country, where there will be different exotic wood to work into the design, maybe Fiji, or Thialand, or I'll stop in Vietnam and see Lucky Luke although he will undoubtedly be on a new boat by then. That way I will get sailing sooner. Time will tell. I do expect you to show up here before I am done as you seem to be moving faster then me. Capt. Z

[Capt Zatarra]

That is one interesting ballast. Such ingenuity and resourcefullness

There was a small note book on board when we bought the boat with notes made by the builder's wife. She wrote that lead was 16 cents a pound and iron punching were 3 cents a pound so they had the designer change the ballast from lead to concrete and iron. The new plan added 18 inches to the draft. I imagine this must also have lowered the center of balance as well. I would need a NA to tell us that, but I am not sure if any are lurking about as I got no feed back from one on my water tank idea, which was a little disappointing, I might add. Capt. Z

[CaptainChuck II]

Hello Capt. This is Capt. Chuck. I am going to be leaving soon from Mississippi (around 1st to 15th of July) to FL then if all is well on to the keys, go down and between Haiti and Cuba to bring my 60' wooden vessel to Central America. I am still trying to find a boat yard that can handle my vessel for the remodel. I have been thinking up the Rio Dulce in Guatemala but have not been able to contact anyone there yet. Is that a good place where you are? I do need a place that can do the work and handle my vessel. I would like to see a place with a rail system, be much safer for these older wooden vessels. it is a 1967 well built sturdy vessel. A fishing charter vessel that i am converting to pleasure full time liveaboard. Do you have a recommendation? Thanks. Anybody else can jump in here as well and let me know. Thanks.

[Capt Zatarra]

Congratulations on your set out date. I will become a date for you never forget and messure your new life by. I have heard good reports of the Rio Dulce, but I have never been there. Some of the best deals are the ones that hardly anyone knows about. As haul out change owners or are newly built, or far off the beaten path, they can be not well known. So keep your eyes open and stray off the beaten path, that's how I found this place. There is a good rail system here for large fishing boats. But we are on the Pacfic side. There is a nice rail system in Pearl Lagoon, nigaragua. With really good wooden boat builders. There is another in Bluefields, Nicaragua, I didn't visit this one though, so I cannot commit on the guys there. There will be more up the coast I would guess, becuase there are fisherman who must haul out. We would hang out anchor for a few weeks checking out the place and if we didn't like it we moved on, till we did find something we liked.
Hope this helps. See you when you get down here! Capt. Z

[Capt Zatarra]

Picture time, picture time, gather round ladies and gents, boys and girls of all ages an behold ordinary men at work on a boat. Step right up, and for just ten cents behold the wonders of the boat yard, that's right for one thin dime you can see this!http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5237/5837045243_c08cc23e8b.jpg
Feast your eyes on an ordinary mast base notched and ready for gooy black stuff
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5115/5837596310_4c733237da.jpg
And here is the goo
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3007/5839325821_73fb818027.jpg
And now in place and ready for bolting down
Each bolt is wrapped with tarred cotton yarn between the washer and the wood
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2525/5837597390_e90cf0a596.jpg

[Capt Zatarra]

This is the second half of this post, go back one post if you missed the intro!
Painted with more tar, then tightened down. Were are looking upside down here folks do not get disoriented or turn your head upside down as you could strain something
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5119/5834799160_407ef65c28.jpg
Ladies and Gentleman this is repeated an astounding number of times till it looks like this
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5072/5839323527_e961079d76.jpg
Then behold as a mere ordinary man with a rather ordinary drill drills through the entire piece sideways, not once, not twice, but three, yes you heard right three incredible times! For compression bolts, ladies and gents.
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3321/5839870518_82b80af297_z.jpg
So they look like this
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5309/5839878606_6ee466ed67.jpg
Remember tell all your friends and family you saw it here and they can too for only one small dime. And don't forget to come back next week for a new episode of "Let's do it again for the other mast" or "No really Honey, my hands are clean! that's just stains from the boat yard!" until next time....all actual ordinary men are ordinary men not actors. No actual ordinary men were hurt during the filming of this episode. Do not attempt these acts without supervision, or prior training. Wood working and ship building are inherently dangerous, dirty, and sweaty work, and this thread has no responsibility or liability for loss of status, or dirty fingernails that have to grow out before they look like a gentle persons hands. Rebuilding my 50' schooner in Nicaragua is not License and registered in Nevada and has no trademark. Consult your physician before blah blah blah. Capt. Z

[George Ray]

Really looking good ....
.
.
I think your tank between bulkheads idea is rather brilliant. Where else can tanks go on most wooden boats and (1) put weight in a pretty good place (assume baffles) (2) not interfere much with access for maintenance (3) be really well integrated into the hull structure and so be strong rather than contribute to weakness (4) allow dumping some or most of the water in desperate situation and still have nice little emergency reserve left and accessible by gravity spigot at floor level.

[JoshuaIII]

That look like quite a wide piece of wood there! From here it even look quarter sawn, but I guess it's probably the mark of a circular saw...(Never mind, seen it on the last page which I didn't see first)

Dirty hand is good... It give many excuse to don't do dishes or food: Can't darling, got some red lead on my hand that don't wash again, no sorry I play with poison today... I sure would like too, but look that sticky stuff on my hand sure isn't healthy if I do it. :D

[JoshuaIII]

. That way I will get sailing sooner. Time will tell. I do expect you to show up here before I am done as you seem to be moving faster then me. Capt. Z

Would like too, but you are way too far in the central American... Going there is not a problem but upwind to get out doesn't attract me much... :) No we plan to head East toward Azores, Cape Verde, Brazil and head south to reach the Pacific. Same goal then you reaching Asia.

[headonz]

Capt. Z...... thanks ,very entertaining ,well worth a dime :)

I'm a bit worried about your ballast though ,isnt there something a bit denser lying around than punchings ? No old discarded railway track ? Something that will add some horizontal tensile strength through out the length of the keel/ballast encased in concrete and then no need for that expensive plate steel.

[Capt Zatarra]

Well today is my birthday and a new load of laurel arrived, now that is a cool birthday present and the curve of the grain so perfectly match the curve of the deck beams it was like the tree grew that way just for me!
Here is a picture of the pattern board laid on one of the planks
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3455/5841036110_52080f00a8.jpg
And here is the main mast base just before it is to go on to the floors to get marked and the grooves chiseled out. It is so nice looking it is a shame to hide it out of sight.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3040/5840478339_f1385d1a84.jpg
JoshuaIII it is quarter sawn, at least the two ends are. It is the second slice after the center quarter sawn slice and as i under stand that still is quarter sawn because of the angle of the grain is still almost up and down when it is cut Out of a tree this big, over 36 inches in diameter, any way i didn't want the slab with the heart in it I'm not sure what other picture your looking at but the circular pattern is the grain not saw marks! So you want to sail around the horn, I always wanted to until I got to the tropics and now I just want to sail more tropical waters, I start every morning at anchor now by jumping overboard for an early morning bath and swim around the boat. Well I did that when the boat was in the water, and will again soon. I spent a lot of years sailing in really cold water where if you went in the water for 5 minutes you would die of hypothermia! Any way you could go through the canal. Well if you do sail south I guess I will have to catch up to you in the south pacific or Asia. Capt. Z

[Capt Zatarra]

Headonz I really like that idea of the railroad tracks. Thanks. I will have to see what I can find down here, usually any metal get sold so quickly to the recycler you never see anything. But I'm going to see what I can find. If not it worked really well for 43 years and it was never sealed or anything to protect it other then bottom paint. Apparently it will last a really long time as long as you don't let it dry out. Capt. Z

[JoshuaIII]

Hey Capt. Happy Birthday!

This was quite a tree! Being born in the Canadian winter, I love cold(Winter where I grow up is around -25C to -40C(-13F to -40F) during winter, . A nice fire inside with a stew cooking and cold with snow outside is something nice for me.
I've cruise enough in the tropics, being naked not moving and still too hot is too much for me ;) The cheap Rum in those area sure help to support it!

We actually don't want to use the Panama canal for several reasons(If it was the one you were refering to). There is a few options left: Northwest passage which is cold with Iceberg, Africa to Australia which is long with a new born baby, And the horn which you have the canal if the weather do not collaborate. With today SSB weather forecast... You just pick your day...

But don't be in a hurry we are slow when cruising... Tend to have barnacle on the anchor when it's a nice place :)

[Capt Zatarra]

Too hot? Naked in the tropics? Jump over board go for a swim! That's paradise! We have a tendency to stay in one place for a while if we like it too. I'm sure we will run into each other somewhere. Capt. Z

[Larks]

I know I'm a couple of days late, but Happy birthday Z:d

[Dana Marlin]

Hey Z,

This is Dana the guy with the Tahiti Ketch in Guatemala (in the river on the pacific side). I am finally getting a little woodwork here but am thinking of moving on some time soon - further south. What is it like where you are for 1. fees; 2. surf; and 3. for maybe a little part time wood work to make a few bucks?

Dana

[JoshuaIII]

Too hot? Naked in the tropics? Jump over board go for a swim! That's paradise! We have a tendency to stay in one place for a while if we like it too. I'm sure we will run into each other somewhere. Capt. Z

Well you will find this one strange... But I swim like a brick and hate being in the water... The only reason that will give me enough will to jump overboard is: 1)The boat needing repair or maintenance 2)My belly is hungry and there is a reef around for fishing.

But I don't do any of both by fun....

I am not worry we will sure meet somewhere... Looking forward to that... You are getting close to start the planking isn't? Found the timber for it yet?

I am a bit jealous of the place you've found to rebuild ;)

[Capt Zatarra]

:d[QUOTE=Larks;3024524]I know I'm a couple of days late, but Happy birthday Z::d
Thanks

[Capt Zatarra]

Hey Z,

This is Dana the guy with the Tahiti Ketch in Guatemala (in the river on the pacific side). I am finally getting a little woodwork here but am thinking of moving on some time soon - further south. What is it like where you are for 1. fees; 2. surf; and 3. for maybe a little part time wood work to make a few bucks?

Dana

Ahoy Dana the deal here is, the town is, well very cool. Fees for checking in to Nicaragua is $10US per person and $15US for the boat. No fees to anchor here, although it is a bit rough in the anchorage for some one trying to do Wood work on board. To haul out it is $300US if you need boat stands it will cost about $100US to make them. The yard fee is $110US a month.

Surf; this place has a rep for the best surf in central America. 3 great breaks to the north and 3 more to the south. If you have a fondness for the surf, you may find it hard to get anything done as the surf is always breaking just perfectly on one or more of the six beaches.

Part time wood work to make a few bucks....there's a few boats in the yard that might hire....but at local wages!!! (and that would be a FEW bucks) unless you can show that you can do something the local can't do. I did some work for a few sailboats in El Salvador, in the costal del sol, there are more sailboats coming in and out of there then here. one job I'm very proud of was a propane locker that looked like a fancy treasure chest made from mango and blood wood with wooden hinges and hasp. Some where I have some pictures if you would like to see it. The trick is to have something to show what you are capable of and that you are worth more. Or there is the possibility of working for one of the local builders here. It has been my experience to find some way to make money that does not involve competing with the locals. When we first got here we sold bagels at the satarday market and made about $250 each week. It was a fun and no one else was making bagels here.
let me know what else I can do for you. Also there is some sort of facilities in Corinto, Nicaragua, you can call Julio Garcia at 8422-8496. Or email him at sinsma@hotmail.com He runs the local boat chandlery there. I look forward to meeting you when you get here. The first cold one is on me!
Capt. Z

[Capt Zatarra]

You are getting close to start the planking isn't? Found the timber for it yet?

I am a bit jealous of the place you've found to rebuild ;)

Deep into mounting the main mast base, then I still have to install the the bulkheads (5 of them) and finish the deck beams. Then we get to planking, seams like that is so far away some times.

Still looking for the right wood right now Santa Maria is still high on the list. I have a lead on some 100 year old teak, still trying to track it down, and see if I can get my hands on some of it. I have been researching the idea of using a really dense wood below the water line one the worms could not eat. And a light weight wood above the water line. Have you heard of anyone who has done this? Capt. Z

[George Ray]

dense wood below the water line one the worms could not eat
A good person on this forum to speak to this is 'George' from Brasil. He built their schooner Dalia from ipe. ( http://www.escunadalia.com.br/desenv/pagina.php?idi=2&id=50 ) . I had the chance to meet him in Brasil last April and was asking about worms. He said that ipe is used in many local boats and they are seemingly immune from worm attack. He also mentioned that there are a couple of variants of ipe.
I visited a small and very basic/primitive boat yard on Ilha Grande and saw a number of boats and surprisingly NO WORM DAMAGE !!

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-UIMeTl0-M_k/TcAy4IrfuhI/AAAAAAAAFKw/ywYXYxXnA_U/s400/rio1%252520384.jpg

[JoshuaIII]

If you can find some good old creosote, worm doesn't eat wood with that on the bottom (On the bare wood).

[wizbang 13]

Progressing along nicely,
My boat also is designed for, and has , a cement/re bar/lead wheel weight keel . No problems with it yet. 25 years.
I would call that wide timber a keelson, not a mast base .

[Dana Marlin]

Ahoy Dana the deal here is, the town is, well very cool. Fees for checking in to Nicaragua is $10US per person and $15US for the boat. No fees to anchor here, although it is a bit rough in the anchorage for some one trying to do Wood work on board. To haul out it is $300US if you need boat stands it will cost about $100US to make them. The yard fee is $110US a month.

Surf; this place has a rep for the best surf in central America. 3 great breaks to the north and 3 more to the south. If you have a fondness for the surf, you may find it hard to get anything done as the surf is always breaking just perfectly on one or more of the six beaches.

Part time wood work to make a few bucks....there's a few boats in the yard that might hire....but at local wages!!! (and that would be a FEW bucks) unless you can show that you can do something the local can't do. I did some work for a few sailboats in El Salvador, in the costal del sol, there are more sailboats coming in and out of there then here. one job I'm very proud of was a propane locker that looked like a fancy treasure chest made from mango and blood wood with wooden hinges and hasp. Some where I have some pictures if you would like to see it. The trick is to have something to show what you are capable of and that you are worth more. Or there is the possibility of working for one of the local builders here. It has been my experience to find some way to make money that does not involve competing with the locals. When we first got here we sold bagels at the satarday market and made about $250 each week. It was a fun and no one else was making bagels here.
let me know what else I can do for you. Also there is some sort of facilities in Corinto, Nicaragua, you can call Julio Garcia at 8422-8496. Or email him at sinsma@hotmail.com He runs the local boat chandlery there. I look forward to meeting you when you get here. The first cold one is on me!
Capt. Z

I just sent you a private message but would rather email directly. please email me at danamarlin@yahoo.com I would like to come and help you on your project too. I need some Lat and Lon coordinates please

Dana

[Capt Zatarra]

Progressing along nicely,
My boat also is designed for, and has , a cement/re bar/lead wheel weight keel . No problems with it yet. 25 years.
I would call that wide timber a keelson, not a mast base .

It does sort of look like a keelson, except a keelson should run the entire length of the keel (as I understand it, But I could be wrong) and this only spans six floor timbers on the main, after reading Chapelle, I increased the base from three floors to six, on the main, but on the foremast I got this longer piece of wood and decided to incorporate it in to the sole of the forward berth. So that is why it is longer then six floors. Capt. Z

[Sailor's Brother]

I'm no NA, just a poor know nothing engineer on a little ship, but if I could throw in my 2 cents about your bulkhead tank idea... (not done any of the math here, just my initial impressions/thoughts)

My first concern is going to be the structural strenght of the tank, given the dimensions of your vessel, you "standard" water tank consruction's not going to cut it with respect to strenght, and the lower portion will tend to bow, and may blow the joints if you don't take account of the additional water column. remember, each foot of tank height is about 1/30th of an atmosphere of pressure increase... typical sailboat tanks are 1-2 feet deep at most... now you're looking at 6-7 feet deep? that's a huge increase in forces on those joints/walls. Assuming one could overcome that (without losing too much space to structural reinforcing)

Baffels are are you indicated a must to reduce free surface effect, FSE is proportional to the beam of tank squared (if memory serves correct), so baffels will help you out in reducing it. HOWEVER, don't forget that you're a sailboat, and are not just worried about transitory movements (rolling), at times you will heel over, at which point you're baffels will slow down the movement of water, but in time, the water will shift anyway, meaning baffles won't be doind anything. this will tend to increase her heel. In addition when it comes time to tack, it's going to take a little longer to settle onto her new tack, as the water slowly shifts leeward, increasing your heel as it occurs. This effect may make for some funny feeling tacks!

A better solution than baffles is some additional plumbing/multiple tanks (running vertically), and only suck from one at a time... of course this now requires water tank management to ensure you're rotating through your tanks on a regular basis... Multiple tanks means multiple joints, all subject to that same high pressure...

As far as the stability calculations for the old versus new, it's pretty simple to do in "rough". Figure out the location of the geometric centroid of the old tank and it's mass when full. Then the same for the "bulkhead tank(s)". Ideally you would want the centroid's to be in the same location. Using the difference in height of those two centroids, and the difference in their mass, some simple stability math (as well as the vessel's overall displacement) will tell you the effect you're going to see on your centre of gravity's height... obviously you're Port/Stbd tankd will mirror each other, so the only shift will be up... (goes without saying this math get's done for fore and aft as well right?)

Pretty simple right??? BY:DBY:D now the upward shift of your centre of gravity will correspond exatcly to the reduction in your metecentric height, unless you added a few feet to the hull at the same time BY:D, that's going to change your underwater profile anyway, and you'll have a new metecentre....

so simple huh?

[Capt Zatarra]

Wow that is great feedback! Thanks, I was right with you, up till you said it was pretty simple then you started speaking Greek, something about gravitational centers of corresponding meteorites going to change my underware to gain a reduction in upward shifting profile!! I'll have to read that part again....but seriously thank you for you time to help me out on this idea. I had already figured out that I would have to put individual tanks across the bulkhead to prevent all the water from moving like you were saying. The water column effect that will take some serious consideration if I build out of fiberglass. My old tanks are steel and I have thought about cutting them up to build the new ones, because I have built steel tanks before and I would pressure test it before installing them. When I lived in Alaska I worked for a while building fiberglass tenders for the purse sainners. And we just built the tanks into the hull, but they were heavily overbuild and weight was not an issue. I recon I could pressure test a fiberglass tank like a welded tank. I spent part of the last two days tearing out more of the main saloon and galley, I knew that there was a lot of waisted space down there but when I actually expose it, it is huge, makes me wonder why it was not used for tankage to start with??? With more removal I will take some pics and post so everyone can see what I am dealing with. If it turns out that I have enough room for tankage below the sole (is that the right spelling). I will still want some tanks to store stuff like coconut oil, cacao beans, olive oil, the good stuff like that. So I can stock up when we find the good stuff at local prices. More later Capt. Z

[Sailor's Brother]

Wow that is great feedback! Thanks, I was right with you, up till you said it was pretty simple then you started speaking Greek, something about gravitational centers of corresponding meteorites going to change my underware to gain a reduction in upward shifting profile!! I'll have to read that part again....but seriously thank you for you time to help me out on this idea. I had already figured out that I would have to put individual tanks across the bulkhead to prevent all the water from moving like you were saying. The water column effect that will take some serious consideration if I build out of fiberglass. My old tanks are steel and I have thought about cutting them up to build the new ones, because I have built steel tanks before and I would pressure test it before installing them. When I lived in Alaska I worked for a while building fiberglass tenders for the purse sainners. And we just built the tanks into the hull, but they were heavily overbuild and weight was not an issue. I recon I could pressure test a fiberglass tank like a welded tank. I spent part of the last two days tearing out more of the main saloon and galley, I knew that there was a lot of waisted space down there but when I actually expose it, it is huge, makes me wonder why it was not used for tankage to start with??? With more removal I will take some pics and post so everyone can see what I am dealing with. If it turns out that I have enough room for tankage below the sole (is that the right spelling). I will still want some tanks to store stuff like coconut oil, cacao beans, olive oil, the good stuff like that. So I can stock up when we find the good stuff at local prices. More later Capt. Z

LOL the confusion is surely from my poor explanation. what you want to do is figure out "point loads" for each tank. That ppiont load is then assumed to be in the centroid (middle of the tank in a 3d kind of way). Then figure out what your mass "shift" is from one centroid up to the other (and fore/aft)... it's all pretty easy, If you decide you can get the tanks built strong enough, PM me and I can help you work out the maths based on your dimensions...

Sailor's Brother

[Capt Zatarra]

Ahhhh now I get it...I'll be in touch for more math when I get a little farther along. Thanks again. Capt. Z

[SV Papillon]

Regarding your tanks, my 2 cents. I am also a lowly ship engineer so take it for what its worth. False bulkhead tanks are not exactly new territiry so don't over think it. Hallberg rassey has been incorrparating a false bulkhead blackwater tank in there boats for some time. On ships wing tanks are quite common. As mentioned above the enemy of a tank is free surface area, this how ever is really not a large concern since a bulkeak tank will not have very much free surface area, nothing a couple baffles can't solve. If I was to start this I would use the following procedure. First don't worry about deign and construction that comes last and is a means to the final end. The first step is to glue the figure 231 cu in per gallon in your head. Next get you layout out and start making some rough sketches. I would use these base guidlines, 1 mirror image tanks if possible, 2 no tanks should exceed appor 1 foot in fore aft width, 3 no tanks should exceed 50% of beam, 4 DO not make tanks structural to the vessel. Now you need several numbers for your optimum FW, Fuel, Black water and or Grey water. Too many tanks is a pain in the but you should have a minum of 2 fuel and 2 FW for the possibility of contamination. You really shouldn't factor tank weight full in too much as running slack and light vessel will be the norm. Next look at your layout and do what makes sense, working your way down, you will most likely want full bulkheads near your masts and chain plates so that will most likely be a possibility for 4 tanks. Your head will probably be in the vicinity of one so there is a black water on one side and FW on the other, 2 fuel aft. Crunch the numbers see where you are and go from there. Ideally you can build near identical tanks which will be a large cost savings down the road. I would also think about getting them out, one side or bulkhead on each tank should be near permanent, the other should be relativly easy to open up for removal. Think about the dimensions thru the boat and out, try to make the tanks such that they can make it out the companionway etc without having to demo half the boat.

Good luck

Jake

[Capt Zatarra]

I just realized that my answer to Jake on the papillon went out into the cyber void, and disappeared. Thank you Jake for all the good info, I will be using it in the near future. Starting with 231, it is now glued in my head. We will see how good my brain glue is i.e. See how long it will stick with me. Also I figure the multiple tank idea is also part of the plan as well. I am seriously considering composting toilets, to do away with black water holding tanks and crappy calcified pipes to bang over the side of the boat. another boat I worked on used the gray water holding tank (fresh water) to flush the toilet and that kept the pipes from calcifing and the smell down as well. I took some more pics of the sweet water tanks and the tear out. I'll post once I get them downloaded. Still sanding. Capt. Z

[Capt Zatarra]

I know I'm suppost to post pictures of progress but, when all my progress is putting bungs in bolt holes and tearing out old plywood bulkheads what is there to take pictures of? I now have to cut off the cabin top and hire a Crane to lift out the motor (1264 pound of cast iron) and the two water tanks. It is a shame to spend this kind of money just to move something 10 feet to the left, but it must be done. I have reached that point where I have to make a final decision on where the hatches will go as I will be framing in the main deck next week. I also have to decide if the hatch will exit from the cockpit and lead down the steps going forward or if the hatch will be slightly forward and to port of the cockpit, and have the steps lead aft. One of the changes we are making to the boat is more exposed deck, in other words, smaller houses on deck. Less windage and more workspace. I'm working on the design for that but I have too many ideas.

Oh and this is for Headonz, I liked your suggestion about railroad track in the keel and so I started asking around about where some might be, and I found out about a scrap yard not to far away that is suppost to have some track available, so if I were to weld two pieces of track together length wise so that they ran the full length of the keel I would have a very stout bumper on the bottom of the boat, thanks Headonz. I owe you a stout one how about a black and tan?

So pictures soon I promise. Capt. Z

[headonz]

Hi Capt Z,

The weight of track can vary a lot (70-130lbs/yrd),dont know what gauge they are using in your neck of the woods but if we took an avarage of say 100lbs-yrd x 2 keel length it would make a significant contribution to the density of you ballast.And why stop at at 2 ?.It normally goes out at scrap metal prices but another places I have seen it is old cattle yards and even stock car tracks ,anywhere a bumper or crash bar is needed.

Are you going to box up a form under the boat and pore your keel there ??

headonz

[JoshuaIII]

The idea is good, specially that you do have a concrete ballast...
If it was me, I would pour the concrete on the rail, but would put the rail on the side. This way you can bolt the bolts for it going in the middle of the rail through the ballast. That would make a great holder for it... Just a 2 minutes thinking about it :)

[wizbang 13]

I do not think putting a rr track IN the cement keel will add much strength. Only after the cement were to bust up would it have an effect. The strength /stress is on the skin of the ballast, not the center. I am not an engineer, just cursed with common sense(sometimes).
FWIW, my cement keel has steel re bar one inch" in", fore n aft ,full length. When built, we would make a batch of mortar and plastered the walls of the mold by hand ,encapsulating the steel. After the mortar went up a few inches, we mixed a wet soupy batch of 1/2/3/ cement, substituting wheel weights for rock. Then, repeated the mortar and on and on till done.The center of my ballast keel has NO strength, but the keel is in perfect condition after 25 years. And it HAS dried out, the past 4 years it has stayed out of the water 6/9 months a year in the tropics.( I hope I did not just jinx it) The lead wheel weights make the cement almost as dense as solid iron, if I recall.

[JoshuaIII]

No strenght... A railroad track near the bottom of the keel on it entire length, with bolt going through it sound like a huge washer/backing plate right under the keel holding everything up... I do not see where that do not give more holding power and strenght to hold that there...

[wizbang 13]

Cuz it is in the center. Bottom yes, but centered. In the event of a catastrophic grounding sure. The center of the ballast is like the center of a hollow mast, there is no stress there. It would be a huge washer,but I think no added strength. The old re bar in the old keel is in the center, it was useless. Plus, being hardened steel, it may rust easier than re bar?

[JoshuaIII]

Got your point and agree with it... It sure if it's close to the keel timber it as not much more effect then the steel rod already designed to be there...So a spider web on the side, RR track on the bottom laying on is side, pouring concrete into that would be the stronger structure for concrete if I get it right... With a few rod drifting in the center just for luck...

[SV Papillon]

Hello,

regarding your Keel, If I was in your shoes I might start poking around at the availability of steel casting etc. I'm sure the cement/ steel ballast was economical in the build originaly but...... Since you have removed everything else, I think a solid cast iron keel would be a nice way to go. If there is a steel foundry in the general vacinity I would have a look. You realy can't go wrong with hanging a nice big steel shoe on her.

Jake

[wizbang 13]

re bar one inch in for n aft full length, re bar "X "es side to side every coupl o feet, spot welded and painted with tarish goop. Strong cement (mortar) on the outer 2" of the ballast . PVC pipe in the mold (left in ) for keel bolts
Trick is , the boat exists and it looks like Capt Z plans to pour it in place around the old bolts. Me, I would have done it before bolting up the keelson, and used new keel bolts.
here is mine from 1983, 10,000 lbshttp://farm5.static.flickr.com/4017/4690209886_eec966fd31_b_d.jpg

[Capt Zatarra]

To make it a bit clearer I was thinking welding the tracks so that the bottom of the tracks formed the bottom of the keel all the it would be what hit first in a grounding. I am thinking to fill in the rest of the space with the iron that I have. (14,000 pounds). I was thinking of two rails because of how wide the bottom of the keel is. I don't know how wide r/r track is, if three would fit side by side I would do three. If I need more weight, I can stack them up. The bolts are done in the usual way. But what if I but steal plate on the side- forming a box- that over lapped the keel on both sides and the bolts were run port to starboard (horizontally) would not this keep the keel always tight with out any way for it to come loose of come off? If you were to put a bolt every 18 inches you could peen the ends like a brad and never worry about them coming loose. I think this sound bullet proof. What am I missing?

[Capt Zatarra]

She is getting new keel bolts. The old ones are shot. My plan was to have a hole through the keelson (about two inches in diameter) that a tee wrench could fit through to tighten if need be. Other wise a wooden plug would fill the hole, concealing the nut and bolt. Capt. Z

[chuckt]

Didn't yall just have a hurricane? Or was that to your North?

[Capt Zatarra]

We don't get hurricanes here, to far south. Here on the pacific side the hurricanes spin up of the coast of El Salvador and go north. All we get here is rain, and no wind. Capt. Z

[SV Papillon]

We don't get hurricanes here, to far south. Here on the pacific side the hurricanes spin up of the coast of El Salvador and go north. All we get here is rain, and no wind. Capt. Z


Bite your tongue

http://www.nytimes.com/1988/10/23/world/hurricane-hits-nicaragua-toll-for-week-is-now-65.html

Just because it hasn't happened yet doesn't mean it can't get you one way or the other.

[Capt Zatarra]

Much like San Diego is considered north of the hurricane belt, the pacific coast of Nicaragua is considered south of the hurricane belt. Of course one should keep in mind that these are arbitrary boundaries created by bespectacled pencil pushing insurance number crunchers and mother nature does not follow the rules.

Speaking of following the rules, George Ray talked about using a Ipe below the water line to make the boat shipworm proof. Has anyone out there have any advise about this? Would you factor in the additional weight that the denser wood would add and subtract that weight from the ballast weight? Ipe is available here as well as several other species that are even more dense. Advise anyone. Capt. Z

[headonz]

To my thinking the concrete is there for no other purpose than to stop the steel rusting so the more steel in your ballast the better.Thats why I asked if you were going to construct a form (boxing) with the steel track ect held in place then your cement/punchings mix on top.Keel bolts in place welded with track either side sound more than enough IMO but I would have 2" of concrete under the track just as corrosion protection.

You could have rebar or even old fencing wire run across and through the punchings mix to in some tensile strength.

Just cant see how you could pore this in place attached to the boat though. ??

[JoshuaIII]

Headonz I had a interesting conversation with a designer(engineer in english?!) of bridge for the city today(As I was curious on this subject from yesterday) . By the explanation, concrete and steel are pretty much like fiberglass. There is the resin (Concrete) and the fiberglass cloth (Steel bar), together they form something solid in a good ratio of both of them. Out of ratio they are both weak.

[headonz]

Joshua111,I am a builder and have done 35yrs+ in general construction and agree with the engineer when referring to highly stressed pre-stressed concrete beam construction in bridge building or multi storey concrete structures but be careful when transpolating this discapline into boat keel construction.Capt Zs keel is going to have a very easy life in comparison gentally swaying back and forth until one day Cap Z is not paying attention and his boat ends up on a reef for 12hrs bouncing up and down on the keel until she floats off.

When this happens (hopefully never) he is going to be glad that he put plenty of longitudinal steal the length of the keel and if that happens to be a couple of railway tracks nearer the bottom with mutiable strands of re-bar or fencing wire nearer the top with steel punching/cement mix in between and a thickness of concrete around the whole lot to stop corrosion he will come off none the worse apart from a few more grey hairs. :)

When I cut up my 39ft ferro hull and took it to the tip the keel was the one part that the bulldozer couldn't break up when running over it .Built only with many stands of 5/16th and 1/4" hard drawn wire suspended in a 3 to 1 cement sand mix.

PS.Capt Z what ever you do DONT use beach sand ,no matter how well it is washed !

[Capt Zatarra]

Well me hardees, it be time for pictures. But first, Headonz, you make some good points. I really like the idea of the cement on the out side as a rust barrier over the rebar and R/R track and bridge punchings mix inside. I will be building the new ballast after we have planked the hull, the boat needs the structural integrity the planks will give it to prop it up completely since it will not be resting on the ballast while it is being remade. I will post lots of pic when I do it. So here is a picture looking forward inside at where the vee berth will be. The Samson post in the back ground is original, I am torn between saving it or replacing it with a beautiful piece of rose wood varnished up and in front of the bulk head. Also You can see the new mast step/mini-keelson, at the bottom of the picture, sorry about the wet foot prints, but it was raining.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3118/5874688523_44ee49d33a.jpg
Turning around and looking the other way, the rest of the boat looking aft.
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5104/5875263244_50f4200bfa.jpg
Moving up to the doorway it looks like this
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3284/5875286330_9360a6434f_z.jpg

[Capt Zatarra]

Sorry that last picture came out darker on the form then my iPad. Try this view.
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5073/5874718739_3098b83828.jpg
Here you can see the two water tanks inside the doorway, and this is the one to starboard
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5227/5875224572_e37fe0411f.jpg
And the one to port
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5149/5874673059_6192b13764.jpg
Tomorrow morning I finish bolting down the main mast step and then I remove the main cabin top!!
I hope these pictures keep you going for a few more days. Capt. Z

[ILikeRust]

Wow, just replacing a few planks, eh?

Reminds me of my grandfather's axe. I still have the same axe my grandfather used as a young man. The handle rotted and I had to replace it. Then the head rusted away and I had to replace that. But it's the same axe my grandfather used!

It's sort of an exercise in existentialist philosophy. How much of a boat do you have to replace before it's no longer the same boat?

[Capt Zatarra]

Wow, just replacing a few planks, eh?

Reminds me of my grandfather's axe. I still have the same axe my grandfather used as a young man. The handle rotted and I had to replace it. Then the head rusted away and I had to replace that. But it's the same axe my grandfather used!

It's sort of an exercise in existentialist philosophy. How much of a boat do you have to replace before it's no longer the same boat?

Weellllll, funny you should ask! I've seen this question come up before. Although I don't get the existentialist reference, since existentialist believe that they control their own destiny and abhor political systems or religions that try to force arbitrary rules on them. But to your question of how much can you replace before it is not the same boat?...one could say that since I am not the same person I was ten years ago, or one year ago, and following that line of thought, I'm not the same as I was this morning. Is my boat the same from one day to the next, the law of entropy says "NO". So we fight entropy with varnish and paint, new wood for old, and tons of T.L.C.. Now on the other hand if my boat comes out the same as it was before I started I really did something wrong. You see I love the hull design, it has got yar like you wouldn't believe. It is fast, and I mean smokin fast. It slices and dices waves like a ginsu knife. It has taken me and mine through the biggest freakin storm you can conceive and brought us out the other side. But other people have messed with her, they shortened her main stick, and changed her from a gaff rig to a bermuda rig without making any compensation for the center of effort change, they did band aid repairs that are a sin in any religion, they did not love her. They were cold and heartless and were stealing her soul in bits and pieces. So now she is mine and I will give her, her soul back in spades. I will make her bigger and better. I will make her shine. Capt. Z

[JoshuaIII]

That is getting quite philosophal thread!

So there was once upon a time, a young fellow that was using the tools of is grand father. For years he was shinning and shinning those tools, working and earning a living with. He was getting a good reputation with his work and was proud of it. His born children was raised with is dad tools, and slowly took up over him as he passed away. So does a few more generations and generations of children all making wonderful work of art with the family tools. Upon one day on of the family member, thinking that he his more talented then the others decided to clean is tools. Shinning he was doing and spending hours and hours, then weeks of his time to bring this treasure of the family back in their former glory.

Under those layer of heavy generations of work, he discover a small stamp. He was so happy and exited to this new discovery and worked harder to see where those tools coming from. Bringing the tool under the most bright light in the shop he was able to read: Walmart, made in China.

The meaning... Well I don't know I was inspired by my morning coffee... Let's just say that it's not the how many of it was changed, or how it was changed, but the memories that it bring to us ;)

[Capt Zatarra]

What I really mean is, I am taking the parts of the old boat that I like and building my dream boat. Capt. Z

[JoshuaIII]

Bump...

[Capt Zatarra]

Ahoy mates, just a little ketch-up on the progress of my boat. The rainy season has only slowed us down a little bit losing a few days to rain. The big problem is I have a truck load of brazilian cherry on the far side of a washed out bridge. This is the wood for the bulkheads. Another load of nicaruguan laurel (not American laurel, this one is denser) arrived and was so much garbage that I refused most of it, the seller took it back and promised to bring me more at the quality I need. So in the mean time I made an unusual shelf with the natural edge left on the wood for a spa here. I'll post pictures if you guys want to see it. It is made mortise and tenion with wood pegs. No nails or screws or glue. The next big step will be removing the old salloon cabin top it is 9"x13" it is not part of the new design. The new boat will have a large open deck. I am lowering the salloon floor so that the deck will be 6'2" above the cabin sole. And there will be no reason for the raised cabin. The new design will have a small pilot house where the old cockpit was and the wheel will be behind the pilot house. Well that's about all for now. Capt. Z

[auscruisertom]

Hey Capt good to see your progress.love the pilothouse idea. Any serious cruising boat over30' should sport one,spent manny a night huddeld behind the Dodger. Happy building Cheers Tom

[headonz]

Capt Z,thanks for the update,photos are always apreciated around here.Sounds like you could do with a shelter over the project of some kind ?

[Capt Zatarra]

So I have a question for all y'all. I am going to replace the sheer clamp as it has a few bad spots. And so I figured to mount the sheer strake to the ribs to keep the hull in it's correct form, because in order to remove the sheer clamp, I have to remove all the deck beams at the same time or at least as many as are on a length up to the joints in the sheer clamp. Since the sheer clamp is about 5.5 inches wide I figured that I could go with a sheer strake 8 inches wide and bolt it with one bolt below the clamp, remove the old clamp, install the new sheer clamp and bolt through the sheer strake, the rib, and the sheer clamp. I will probably put a temperary stringer every eight feet or so to hold the new strake from squeezing in the hull till I install the new deck beams. (about half of the deck beams are cut out and are being sanded but it is too humid right now to varnish them, maybe in a few days, this is the start of our mini dry season). So my first question can anyone see any thing wrong with this plan? My second question is about the thickness of the sheer strake VS the thickness of the hull planks. My hull planks are going to be one and a half inches thick. I was thinking that if the sheer strake was thicker say two and a half inches thick that it would look really good and be rather robust as well. Has any one done this before. Or seen it done before? Keep in mind the ship design is a late eighteenth century early nineteenth century Baltimore Clipper. Capt. Z

[Capt Zatarra]

Where has the icon gone to post pictures??? Capt. Z

[Capt Zatarra]

Headonz , your right I could really use some protection from the weather

[headonz]

Where has the icon gone to post pictures??? Capt. Z

Bottom of the page ,third from the right , no ?

[Capt Zatarra]

It used to be just above the box I'm typing in now. Along with several other icon for doing things to my text. But there is nothing there anymore. I looked at the bottom of the page and there is Only the posting permission and it says that " img is on". I'm on an IPad did something change? I see where at the bottom it says iPads use tapatalk, is this new? Capt. Z

[ILikeRust]

They're still there for me - but I'm using a PC running Microbloat Windoze Internet Exploder, so it might be your browser/platform...

[George Ray]

Posting pictures:
The forum has changed something and the way PICTURE/IMAGE data is entered when using the icon helper wizard is confusing ..... HOWEVER !!!

The mechanism behind it is the same.
(1) get an address to an image somewhere on the web: e.g. => somewhere.org/mypicture.jpg
(2) type or paste the address in the post and then add the secret code before and after the address.
(a) BEFORE => ""
(b) AFTER => ""
note: it is tricky to type these instructions because the browser does not want to display the text of the tag, it wants to 'do the thing the tags instructs it to do'. I this case I put the quotes around the tag to fool the browser.
(3) So the result is: [before tag] thing in middle [after tag]
notes: (i) the only difference in the before and after is that the after tag has a "/" as the second character. (ii) this tag thing applies to most of the magic stuff that the browser does in forum posts: bold is "[B]" and italics "[I]" and text size and color all have their unique tags that follow this convention of adding the "/" in the after tag and the stuff between the tags is what is acted on/changed/formatted/displayed/etc ....

[Capt Zatarra]

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3406/5743580869_47cd04cee6_z.jpgwill this work? So this is a view of the sheer clamp to be replaced. Comments please! Capt. Z

[Capt Zatarra]

Hay George it worked!!! Thanks! Capt. Z

[George Ray]

Here's a thought:
While it is attractive to replace the sheer clamp in one piece it is hard to do.
As an alternative, add a new sheer clamp below the existing clamp, fit tight, bedded and bolted to the existing clamp. any bad spots in the existing clamp can be repaired with new sections scarfed in. The work should be much easier and the final result stronger that your original.

[Capt Zatarra]

I am concerned that there may be rot started some where that I may not have seen. So I plan to replace it all. I like your idea, what I may do is mount a new board under the sheer clamp bolt through to the sheer strake, bolting all three together. Remove the old sheer clamp, put in the new one and bolt it in place. Juan the old Nica shipwright working with me, thinks that if we plank the first four planks that the hull will hold it's form while we remove the old deck and deck beams and sheer clamp. I think that we still need to put in some stringer to make sure that it does not warp out of shape. At this point I am thinking that the old belt and suspenders strategy should be used here! Concerning my earlier question of making the sheer strake thicker then the rest of the planks, after spending most of the day researching in my liberary mostly with some of Howard Chapelle books, "The History of American Sailing Ships" and "Search For Speed Under Sail" I found numerous schooners with this perticular strake design, what surprised me was most were at least 12 inches some as much as 24 inches wide. So now I have to decide how wide would look good. And should it be the same width from bow to stern or, narrow ot the bow and widest at the max beam and taper back from there. Decisions decisions. Capt. Z

[George Ray]

Sounds like you have some direction, some energy and some good help, great.
From you description of the trials and tribulations you have been through with the boat so far and now knowing the structural issues that were lurking and yet you still came through OK, it seems that you really don't need to make things a lot heavier/bigger for it to be 'strong enough'.

[JoshuaIII]

My dear Capt!
It's been a few months... Everything going well? Planking under way??

[Capt Zatarra]

Well is been awhile since I checked in, what with the rainy season and life in general conspiring to slow me down a bit. Lately the build has been more of a demolition, make that all demolition. The problem was that every part of the boat that I had planed to save (the galley and the head)was that the more I uncovered of it's structure the more delaminated plywood and end rot I discovered. So, after some careful consideration, I went back to the drawing board with the idea that I could design a new interior free of any of the old lay out, that really got my imagination fired up sooooo, I hired a crane went to work with the sawsall and removed all that was left of the original interior. As well as the motor and all the tanks. And now it looks like this looking forward
http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6026/6201747913_31656b0b36_z.jpg
And this looking aft.
http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6177/6201753925_6acc4e0cb1_z.jpg
There is so many looking back lessons here, it is ridiculous. The shoulda, woulda, coulda meter just pegged out and exploded. Well so much for living in the past, we makes our beds and then we get thrown out of them for eating crackers in it. Or something like that. So anyway I had thought that by now I would have started planking, but I am not even close, yet. The wood for the deck beams was late in arriving and when it came it was to short, so it was sent back and after much delay finally I got some, and this was really nice but it is not seasoned enough so I am waiting for it to season up. Mean while I am looking for more wood for the deck so I can get that seasoning so it will be ready when we get to that. As well as the wood for the hull. Well it is all progress so it all feels good to be moving forward if some times it feels like I'm moving backwards. Capt. Zatarra

[JoshuaIII]

Hey Capt,
nice to ear from you and that you are still on the project.

Look finally that the only thing from the original will be the keel timber! Quite a big amount of work to do, but it's getting there! Will just give me more time to finish mine before yours :D

Thanks for the update.

[George Ray]

Glad to hear you are moving ahead if slowly and that you are keeping your chin up in spite of slow downs and setbacks. I have been going through a pile of slow downs and a few "hurry up and wait" things so for now you are my inspiration. Thanks, I needed some!

The pics are great, starting with a clean slate and a head full of visions is good. ..... what are you thinking, interior wise ?

[Capt Zatarra]

Hey Capt,
nice to ear from you and that you are still on the project.

Look finally that the only thing from the original will be the keel timber! Quite a big amount of work to do, but it's getting there! Will just give me more time to finish mine before yours :D

Alright the race is on but I think you should work one day for every two days that I work! Just to give me a fighting chance!

[wizbang 13]

I think your local Chippy is right, lock the sheer with a coupl o planks (and deck beams), then cut away the old clamp.
Maybe consider laminatin the clamp of 1x4's.

[Capt Zatarra]

Glad to hear you are moving ahead ........for now you are my inspiration. Thanks, I needed some!

The pics are great, starting with a clean slate and a head full of visions is good. ..... what are you thinking, interior wise ?

That was the nicest thing to say! thanks. so for now I'm thinking about making the v birth with a water tight bulkhead with access only through the deck with a water tight access, making the v-birth a storage locker/crash bulkhead. Other ideas that are in the pipe...His and her work/hobby spaces., a wet locker for rain gear, spiral stair case from pilot house to main saloon, larger easy access storage spaces, and that is just getting started. Capt. Z

[George Ray]

My dream layout would have the area below the main companionway as a sort of "Mud Room" where wet and salty are no problem. I would have a garden sprayer to wash the salt off before hanging up wet gear in a locker that had warm air flowing so gear got dried out. Might be a natural to build a few more things like shower/head as satellites to this area especially if the that bilge area were made as an easily accessible gray water sump for pumping/cleaning to accommodate life below the water line?

[Capt Zatarra]

While it was raining last week, I figured I would knock up a paper model of the stairs that lead from the main saloon to the pilot house, or is it called a companion way? I was not sure if what I was dreaming up would be what I hoped it would be. So I built it at a scale of one inch equals one foot to see how it would look in 3D. So then I added the pilot house and the out side steering station, to get a feel for space in and around the differant parts on the quarter deck. Here is what it looks like.
http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6005/6209430906_8d3bdcbfc3_z.jpg
Here is the front view of the pilot house looking back. I didn't realize when I took the picture that the center axis pole had slipped sideways. It is supposed to be perpendicular to the model.http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6147/6209431620_9779701444_z.jpg
And here is the stair to belowhttp://farm7.static.flickr.com/6001/6208917805_c85b2f07d9_z.jpg

[Capt Zatarra]

This is the inside looking down.http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6059/6208918035_607f5a9d87_z.jpg
There will be a 2 foot wide shelf in the front just under the port lights running from port to starboard. With a steering station in the middle. The shelf that you can see here in the back will be for lounging at anchor and a for the off watch to sleep close at hand.
http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6018/6209432132_19f2c9f2d8_z.jpg
The pilot house is three feet high off the quarter deck.
This model of the wheel is in the right place but it is not what I have planed for how it will look. So here is a peek of things to come. Capt. Z.

[ILikeRust]

Wow, cool model! I love the little binnacle. I wouldn't know where to start with such a big, blank slate...

[wizbang 13]

Is there a bunk in the Pilothouse?

[Larks]

The shelf that you can see here in the back will be for lounging at anchor and a for the off watch to sleep close at hand.

Instead of expecting the off watch to sleep on the step and be trodden on whenever you go in to check your charts, is there room under the aft deck to slot a quarter berth back in under that shelf on the starboard side of the steps? ie so that you'd have about 2' of bunk protruding into the cabin that may be a seat for the chart table or something (though that may be too low for a seat by the time you drop the bunk low enough to have space under the deck and shelf.) You really want your off watch to get a decent sleep if you hope to get a decent sleep yourself later on.

[wizbang 13]

I was thinking for the ON watch person to lay in a bunk and only have to "sit up" every now and then to look around. A great savings of energy.
As opposed to a regular small boat, get up outta the bunk, go up the companionway, look around, climb back down ans re gain the bunk.
Many will say a watch keeper should be at full alert all the time, but that is not possible on a short handed boat.
It is SO easy to "skip" a look around when yer tired.
Bunk needs to be fore n aft, even on a large vessel.

[Capt Zatarra]

Well I just got back from stomping around in the jungle looking at some new wood that I am buying for the boat, this will most likely be for the cabin sole frames. Now to get it delivered here, stack and sticker it and let it season up. So about the arangment of the lay out in the pilot house there is still no hard decession made yet, except for the stairs and the second steering station, that is fixed.
Bill T. Thanks for the compliment. Where to start is the easier then you think. Think about what you liked about every boat you ever sailed on write all that down on a list, now think about every thing you didn't like on every boat you sailed on and write that down on a list. See how easy that was? You've started! Now the fun begins. Draw the outline of a boat on some graph paper. Now it get harder, draw in all the things on the good list and leave off all the things on the bad list. And voila the perfect boat!!!

Wiz-There is an actual off watch birth under the pilot house where I imagine the real sleeping will take place.

Larks- I pictured myself sleeping in the door way when my daughter was on watch(she is 16 now, she started standing a night watch when she was 11). In the past I was either scrunched in the corner of the cockpit or at the bottom of the companionway when she, or someone new at standing watch was on. The more I think about it the more I realize your right I don't want some one climbing over me just because they want a drink or to check something insignificant. it's surprising how sensitive to your ship you can become after sleeping aboard for a few years while under way. And what little changes will wake me right up, like some one steping over me!! Any way back to the pilot house plan, I have thought about a bunk on the starboard side, but a VERY comfortable reclining nav-station chair seems to make more sence. I have plans for what is under the shelf that runs across the back of the pilot house. So I cannot protrude into that space. I think I'll cut out a little more paper to show the steering station and the nav station. I'll post that when I'm done. Capt. Z.

[Capt Zatarra]

I was thinking for the ON watch person to lay in a bunk and only have to "sit up" every now and then to look around. A great savings of energy.
As opposed to a regular small boat, get up outta the bunk, go up the companionway, look around, climb back down ans re gain the bunk.
Many will say a watch keeper should be at full alert all the time, but that is not possible on a short handed boat.
It is SO easy to "skip" a look around when yer tired.
Bunk needs to be fore n aft, even on a large vessel.

Wiz- On my boat where I am the Master and Commander of all souls, I require a fully awake watch, the rule on my boat is if your sleepy stand up, if you still cannot stay alert standing up, wake up the next watch! My family and I have been sailing short handed for years now and it can be done. It requires desapline to make sure the off watches get to bed early enough to be rested when their watch time comes up. If every one is to tired drop all sails and drift till your rested. Or if your near enough to shore anchor out then sleep with an accational look around.
Also I have found bunks to be more comfortable when they lay athort ship, I slept easier when my feet were against the hull and my head was at the high end of the bunk and I would spin around when we tacked, then when I was rolled into the netting to keep me in the bunk, but then I imagine that this is one of those topics that is all about personal preference. Capt. Z

[Larks]

Many will say a watch keeper should be at full alert all the time, but that is not possible on a short handed boat

I'm one of them, having found myself in the situation a few times where the on watch dozed in the cockpit resulting in near misses, including once with two guys on watch who both dozed and I awoke to find us literately seconds from hitting a reef off of the Queensland coast after the autopilot wandered off course.

I've managed to sail two up for months on end quite comfortably, including up the Red Sea, a very busy shipping area towards the top, with neither of us needing to doze during the on watch simply because when off watch we've been able to sleep soundly with full confidence in the on-watch.

[wizbang 13]

"If every one is to tired drop all sails and drift till your rested." That is no safer, if you think it is, then it actually might make it more dangerous!
I did not say to sleep on watch.
I meant as an energy saving technique, to simply sit up , look around, lay back down, to read.

[JoshuaIII]

"If every one is to tired drop all sails and drift till your rested." That is no safer, if you think it is, then it actually might make it more dangerous!
I did not say to sleep on watch.
I meant as an energy saving technique, to simply sit up , look around, lay back down, to read.

I agree with Wiz, specially when upwind and you got the lee cloth up... Lowering it, stepping up, trying to hold, look around, try to put all the setup again is .... I am tired just saying it!

If the person on watch can stay confortable reading, and just have to raise to look around it's a really nice setup! I keep those oven timer under my pillow usually when on watch, they are easy to set at 15 minutes and make a lot of noise(That's why under the pillow, to don't wake up the whole boat)!

It let me read and taking it easy and make the job less of a chore...

[Capt Zatarra]

I have always said that we would drop all sails if no one could stand watch, but in all the years of sailing that has never happened. Perhaps over 19 years in army combat units spending so much time on patrol, where falling asleep on watch was a court marshaling offense, I learned to stand my watch. Later when I was the NCOIC I made sure my guys learned how to stand their watch as well. But I can tell you in just one year of sailing the Mexican coast we knew of 4 different boats that ran aground while someone was not paying attention, all of these had something in common, they all were saying how some piece of equipment had malfunction like the autopilot, nav system, ect. That they had been depending on while they read or dosed or slept. I personally cannot risk my home and the life of my family for causual watch keeping. I realize that many sailors may think that my approach is extreme but I cannot replace my family and I hope this is the last time I replace my boat. One final thing on watch keeping before we get back to boat building, on my boat we have always been very flexible on the amount of time spent on each watch. Capt. Z.

[Larks]

I have always said that we would drop all sails if no one could stand watch, but in all the years of sailing that has never happened. Perhaps over 19 years in army combat units spending so much time on patrol, where falling asleep on watch was a court marshaling offense, I learned to stand my watch. Later when I was the NCOIC I made sure my guys learned how to stand their watch as well. But I can tell you in just one year of sailing the Mexican coast we knew of 4 different boats that ran aground while someone was not paying attention, all of these had something in common, they all were saying how some piece of equipment had malfunction like the autopilot, nav system, ect. That they had been depending on while they read or dosed or slept. I personally cannot risk my home and the life of my family for causual watch keeping. I realize that many sailors may think that my approach is extreme but I cannot replace my family and I hope this is the last time I replace my boat. One final thing on watch keeping before we get back to boat building, on my boat we have always been very flexible on the amount of time spent on each watch. Capt. Z.

Not extreme Cap', just exactly how it should be. I'd add in regard to electronic nav' aids, autopilots and the like, I make it standard policy to plot our position on the chart at least every hour using all nav methods available to confirm position - ie GPS, radar, depth, sightings etc. This has the advantage of not only keeping an eye on the charts and not relying on electronic charts etc but keeps crew on task during the watch.

[chuckt]

Capt. Z. As another forumite says--youv'e got some big balls to do what you are doing. (That's a compliment). What a project! And I'd be willing to bet my last few bucks you are going to see it all the way through. I'll go back to lurking now. Kudos.

[kavw]

Just curious what you decided to do about your tanks building ideas? I had a similar idea of building tanks that were more vertical than horizontal. I really like to be able to see my bilge!
Anyway, I built one of the bunks, divided into two, baffles in each side and voila! Just a big plywood box, glassed inside and lid and a mattress on top. But 200G of water in two tank.
I must admit, I work by TLAR, not numbers.
Kris

[kavw]

"If every one is to tired drop all sails and drift till your rested." That is no safer, if you think it is, then it actually might make it more dangerous!
I did not say to sleep on watch.
I meant as an energy saving technique, to simply sit up , look around, lay back down, to read.

I agree, radar alarms help also. Turn down the gain so you get the rain squalls, kinda like reefing alarm.
However with less experienced crew, its an "awake, dressed and ready" policy.

[Capt Zatarra]

Four more deck beams cut out today, yeehaa! I'd take a picture but it would look just like the picture I posted already of the quarter deck beams being cut out. I increased the arch of the main deck an inch and a half from that of the quarter deck. From 6" to 7.5", over a 14' span. You will not be able to see the difference because the pilot house will block the eye from seeing them both at once. In fact I will be amazed if any ever notices. But my reasons for this is it adds an inch and a half of head room below, sheds water a little faster, should be easier to clean anchor chain mud and fish scales etc from and to my eye looks a little better. Where as the aft deck will remain what it was on the old boat which felt really comfortable walking around on not to steep, shed water well enough, and was perfect for setting up for sundowners, BBQ's, and other assorted quarterdeck festivities. Capt. Z.

I forgot to say that these are a little wider for more strength for the mast stresses and strains.

[Capt Zatarra]

All the deck beams cut out now. But raining and wind are blowing so hard that the work is stopped till the weather breaks. I also cought a virus that has been going around, I've got a sore throat and cough, I felt like something the dog dragged in. I am almost over that. When the weather breaks I will start fitting the deck beams. Very exciting. Here is the question of the day! "Since I am moving the chain locker from the very end of the vee birth to the bilge in front of the fore mast, what should that space that was used for the chain locker be used for now?" ideas, suggestions???? Capt. Z

[JoshuaIII]

Rum tank what else!!!

Seriously... I will have 2 compartment on mine. One like yours for chain lower on the boat, and another one with lot's of lines. So on the deck you have access to 2 differents section between lot's of chain or lot's of lines. Useful to play with sea anchors, tow the boat, put another anchor out etc...

[George Ray]

Sore throat: chew small slice onion and gargle high as possible with pulp and spit or swallow (I spit).
I chop some onion and put in little plastic bag and use as needed.

I discovered it 30 years ago (longish story) and have had rave reviews from all who try it. ( rather few )
Girl friend back then was clinical microbiologist and told me in school they had a lab were they put folk remedies in petri dish with cultures and observed the results. She said that onion juice killed Streptococcus bacteria. In 30 years I have never had a sore throat last more than about 24 hours and they never gain traction and get severe.

My 2 cents.

[Capt Zatarra]

Rum tank what else!!!

Seriously... I will have 2 compartment on mine. One like yours for chain lower on the boat, and another one with lot's of lines. So on the deck you have access to 2 differents section between lot's of chain or lot's of lines. Useful to play with sea anchors, tow the boat, put another anchor out etc...


I like it, a dedicated line locker. Good idea. Any one else? Capt. Z

[Capt Zatarra]

Sore throat: chew small slice onion and gargle high as possible with pulp and spit or swallow (I spit).
I chop some onion and put in little plastic bag and use as needed.


My 2 cents.

I'll try it! I always lile natures way to solve problems if I can find it! Thanks Capt. Z.

[chuckt]

Sore throat: For temporary relief eat some dill pickles and let them go down slow. The vinegar stings the soreness out--at least for a while. And if you like pickles anyway so much the better? Bloody Marys work even better--vinegar plus the alchohol. And after a few the buzz masks your misery!

[Capt Zatarra]

So the sore throat moved into the lungs and got bad enough to make me start taking antibiotics. It's been a few day and I'm felling better. Still got a cough but it is getting better. The big rain storm seems to over for now. I'ii be Back at it tomorrow morning, I have to sand down each rib and then router the bottom two edges. Then fit and cut. Here is the quarter deck all ready done.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3285/5694952444_fdc42a4fa6.jpg
I have been very frustrated by wood cutters not making deliveries on time, (I'm talking about two and three months late.) well one learns to go with the flow here. More later, Capt. Z.
Here is one more picture of the interior looking aft where you can see both of the mast steps.
http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6152/6201757445_7022f81a3d_z.jpg

[J.Madison]

http://i1123.photobucket.com/albums/l545/JMadison1/Backbone/6201757445_781699dd2c_z.jpg

Here ya go. This is a huge project but I have the utmost confidence that you will see it through! I do love to see a vessel in frame. So much shape and potential. Keep us posted on the progress.

[George Ray]

Great to see you are making boat and health progress.
On the sore throat, I did not mention that while the onion KNOCKS OUT the sore throat, I very often end up with a near chronic post nasal drip the tries to fill my lungs and might succeed except that I found out about Flonase nasal spray 15 years ago. I try to avoid all meds but this is one I keep around. Only time I ever use it is when I stop a sore throat in it's tracks and then have to deal with the resultant post nasal drip. For me it takes a couple or few days of taking Flonase twice a day to stop the drip. This has happened almost once a year for last ten or 12 years. Don't know if there is something about the onion interrupting the sore throat quick that could result in post nasal drip ????

***********
What is Flonase?
Flonase is a nasal spray containing the corticosteriod fluticasone. It prevents the release of substances in the body that cause inflammation.
Flonase is used to treat nasal symptoms such as congestion, sneezing, and runny nose caused by seasonal or year-round allergies.
http://www.drugs.com/flonase.html

Fluticasone Nasal Spray(floo tik' a sone)
Why is this medication prescribed?
Fluticasone nasal spray is used to treat the symptoms of seasonal (occurs only at certain times of year), and perennial (occurs all year round) allergic rhinitis and perennial nonallergic rhinitis. These symptoms include sneezing and stuffy, runny, or itchy nose. Fluticasone is in a class of medications called corticosteroids. It works by preventing and decreasing inflammation (swelling that can cause other symptoms) in the nose.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0000953/
************
http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcR3FThLerq_vKPuhqF2-TalEPegoor0cC8PWdFVcceKvdB4t1Gm

[Capt Zatarra]

Hay thanks a lot. That's so much better then looking at it side ways. I agree with you completely it is a HUGE project. But it is my an extension of my soul! So build it I must! (the last part spoken in a Yoda accent). I'm not sure if a landlubber nonboatbuilder would understand this but I'm sure from reading your thread about your MOE, you get it, as do the other builders on this forum. On the other hand, I cracked up laughing reading schoonersRus thread when he said a 50' schooner was not that big! My thought was he could stop by here and lift just one of my midship ribs into position and get the clamp on it and still see if he thinks it's not that big! But then again I doubt SRUS even knows the difference between a jack plane and a hand plane! And I imagine if he ever does get his build started he will hire some one to do it for him and then drive them nuts with odd ideas from all his many sources! My favorite part is how he keeps saying "I AM building this boat... in six months." (some sort of present/future time travel statement.) and every one telling him he's not building "now"! I'm sure that he would not want to hear anything I have to say since I am a big fan of carvel planked boats. Any way I wish him luck. Well I feel like I'm talking to my self when I write on my build thread here and I'm completely delighted and surprised when some one takes the time to comments on what I am doing here.
George thanks for the advice. I used to use flonase when I was in the states. I think I just about kicked this crap and I am almost back to normal. The sun is out so it's time to get some work done on the boat. Capt. Z.

[JoshuaIII]

Sure I love earing from you... Always nice to ear from another builder who is actually doing it, not just thinking he is doing it ;)

Looking forward to see the progress... Myself I had to cut a 20ft board into 2x 10ft one for the planking today.... The curves are now too big for the planks, need to start doing butt block.... Darn!

[Capt Zatarra]

So I just had a visit with a good friend who is a rigger and a sail maker and boat builder. He and his wife stopped in to visit and check up on my progress. I ask him to go over my drawings of the new rigging and the sail plan. I really respect this guys knowledge, (he holds several patents on rigging parts) and wish I had a 10th of his boat savvy. So we sat down and poured over the drawings and he came up with four minor changes that he would recommend. The first idea is to switch the placement on the rail of the tops'l shroud with the aft fore course shroud. This would give a greater angle for the tops'l shroud making it stronger, with very little loss to the aft fore course shroud which is redundant anyway. Well not really redundant in that with more shrouds each shroud is correspondingly smaller in size, but still caring the same load. There are four, fore course shrouds, on each side, in this plan, it is very old, old school. By the mid 1800's wire rope was first used on ships, 1843 to be exact. Where sailing ships started using fewer shrouds. Any way schooners of the Baltimore clipper design went out of vogue before this date. While some of the Baltimore cutters had gone to two shrouds from the usual four, as early as 1814 it appears that the majority still had three or four, by the end of their era.
My plan is to go with the new high tech synthetic rope instead of wire rope. To me it seems to be more in harmony with the original concept of the Baltimore clipper to use a light weight synth rope then heavier wire rope that was never part of any original Baltimore clipper to start with. And I have less weight aloft. Always a good thing.
His second change was to reduce the foot of the foresail such that it does not over lap the main and make the gaff longer. This would allow the sail to be handled with a single sheet instead of two and still maintain the same square footage. He really liked this sail as he felt that this sail would be the perfect sail for a storm sail as the center of effort was set over the center of lateral resistance to have very slight weather helm and be reefed down as needed and still be in a great position.
The next was to shorten the main boom such that you could reach all the reef points from off the back of the deck/dingy davits. The plan was that these reef points would be pulled by lines leading forward on the boom to the deck, but that plan has no back up if the reef lines some how fail. So I will probably shorten the boom four or five feet. I'm thinking about it.
The next one was to move the aft main shroud back one foot for a better angle off the hounds. An easy fix.
There is one more. So I guess there is actually five suggestions. And this one I liked least of all. That is to shorten the bowsprit such that it could go to weather better. Now I like going to weather just fine, but, I really like my bow sprit sticken clear in to tomorrow. So what is a sailor to do? I will probably shorten it some but how much I do not know yet? I am drawing up new revised plan with all the changes to see how it looks and measure where the center of effort will be. I will take a picture and post it. Soon. Capt. Z.

[George Ray]

Sounds like you are on track, have great help/advice and are doing all your homework !!!
I like the idea of the hi-tech lite weight standing rigging ..... and 7x7 galvanized wire (3/8",1/2"etc) for small boat standing rigging is getting harder to find.
One thing to consider is that if you drastically reduce your weight aloft you will potentially drastically change the motion of the boat by reducing rotational inertia. More mass aloft dampens sudden motions and that can (1) make the motion more comfortable and (2) possibly keep the boat from being knocked down quickly if hit by a gust or a steep rouge sea on the beam. I have no training or comprehensive experience to go with these comments but at the least I am pretty sure that reducing weight aloft while keeping others things the same will result and quicker/snappier motion. Might snap the fillings out of your teeth?

[wizbang 13]

Will you carry a jib boom for a flyin' jib?
That took care of the "wanted a longer bowsprit" for me.
End of my j'boom was 13' out on my 30'wl !
Isn't the modern shroud material prone to chafe? More of that on an old school rig!

[Capt Zatarra]

George, your absolutely right about changing the weight aloft. My problem is not getting it lighter then it was but rather not exceeding the weight that it was before this rebuild/remodel. I am a 100% sure that the mast that was on the boat when I adopted her was not the original mast. 1; It was too short for this size boat. 2; it was rigged with a bermudian sail but the placement of the mast was for a gaff. (this produced a lot of weather helm.) So I am increasing the mast height for the scantlings values for the hull of this size. And I am doing it with a top mast so the addition of the hounds and the overlap all add weight aloft. So my challenge is to not get it too heavy.

Wizbang, yep I want it to have a jib sprit. My current bowsprit extends 9 feet, the idea was for the jib sprit to get out there another 9 feet. So that is what I am contending with, historical accuracy or convinience and a little higher sailing to weather. On the modern shroud material question, I have not used it yet, I have handled it, and I am told that it is very slippery and therefore less prone to chafe, but the danger comes in when two lines run over each other at high speed it can generate a lot of heat and melt some of the fibers, thus weakening the shroud. So care must be taken to protect shrouds from sheets running across them. Chafe protection on the lowers. So I might be the first boat with high tech rigging with baggy wrinkles. Capt. Z.

[Capt Zatarra]

Ok so I'm sittin' here drawing up a new sail plan with out the foresail overlapping the main and it makes it so that the center of effort of just the fore gaff sail is two feet in front of the center of lateral resistance. The overlapped fore sail's center of effort is about three inches behind the the CLR. It is in my mind that the balance of the fore sail would make it the perfect storm sail with every thing else taken down, I would have a tiny bit of weather helm for all intent and purpose it would be balanced. The other factor is the overlap sail is 492 square feet where the non overlapping sail is 377 square feet. So my dilemma is which is better, the simple and easy single sheet fore sail with lee helm, or the more work-twin sheet with a little tiny bit of weather helm (balanced) foresail? Let's here it what do you think out there? Capt. Z.

[JoshuaIII]

Here what I think.....
You are freaking nuts, but I do love you ;)

[Capt Zatarra]

I love you too man, but that doesn't help me!

[JoshuaIII]

I would like to help you... But I think your best bet would be a real NA... Just to be sure the boat sail well...

Having meet P. Gartside the designer of my boat, I would suggest him... But that's me ;)

[wizbang 13]

That's a lotta fancy numbers for a heavy traditional boat.
You really think you can calculate weather helm that close?
Dropping a 100sq ft mizzen in 15 knots of breeze can change the whole feel of mine!
IMO, If the staysl/jib is self tacking, then have the fore overlap (tack) . Sounds like you may have 3 or 4 sets of sheets/backstay to tack!

[Capt Zatarra]

Stephane-this guy is really close if not a real NA. The guy who designed the original boat, Frank Carrick sailed his last passage over the bar about ten years ago. I tried for about two and a half years to find an original drawing. But no luck. I would definitely hire an NA if I could meet face to face. But they are a little short of them here in Nicaragua.

Wiz-ya lots of numbers, not too fancy, just trying to paint a decent picture of what I am workin' with here. What would be the alternative? Blindly make changes and hope they work? Or figure out the best you can on paper and then fine tune once your on the water? I'm doing my best to do the last one, and Hopefully this will prevent a lot of reredoing. As for being a "heavy traditional boat" that is not an excuse to be causual and rig it like a pig. This question is really about the shape of the sail that has to be made. Recutting a new sail becuase it sucks is costly. Maybe a better way of ask my question is which would you rather have? A single sheet on a boomed sail on the fore mast, making it simpler on a daily basis but with a lee helm storm sail, or a free footed sail (no boom so there is no deck sweeper) on the fore mast that over laps the main mast by five feet so that it requires two sheets, but with a balanced storm sail? If I'm reading your last sentence right it sound to me like you think I am talking about my stays'l and jib. If that is the case I have failed to make my self clear and I will try harder to paint a clear picture. Or better yet take a picture and post it. For the last eight years every tack I made has required me to handle three to four set of sheets. After a while it can be done very smoothly. Your second question of do I think I can calculate weather helm that close? That's a good question. And honestly I think I can get close if I include mast and rigging but it is still a estimate. What I was looking for here was some feed back to help me think through the details becuase a project like this is all about the little details. When you solve the little details the big thing fall right in line. Your reply to my post really helped me because it made me think through the tacking and jibing process and how it would be different between the two different rigs. Thanks for taking the time to respond. Capt. Z.

[Capt Zatarra]

Ok guys somebody tell me what's going on here. I ask a serious question here and I see that there were over two hundred views, and only three guys had anything to say. What do I have to do threaten y'all with my deadly elbow strike before someone speaks up. Capt. Z.

[JoshuaIII]

Well it's a big boat, with complicated sail area and rig, to have it perfectly balance it's quite some work which I think a experienced NA would answer better. I can tell you to change this and this, but don't want the responsibility in case I am wrong ;)

[George Ray]

You are asking questions that require some serious thought. I'm trying to think but nothing is happening. Will try again later. ... Just the fact that you are writing out the questions and doing some of your own mental visualizations is certain to be beneficial.

[J.Madison]

Do you have access to any design books? I won't be around mine until later this weekend and I'll double check my theories then. Is the center of lateral resistance you are using the geometrical center of area or a truly calculated center of lateral resistance? Because they can be fairly different and affected by heel and yaw angle. As I understand things the center of effort usually is taken as the center of area of the sailplan, but even that can change a fair amount depending on sailing angle. With both of these points moving around all the time depending on the sailing situation I'm not sure how accurately you will be able to place them with respect to each other. A center of effort slightly forward of the center of lateral resistance will not necessarily create lee helm because the moment due to the sail not being on the centerline of the boat. I think there is also another effect helping to cancel the lee helm in that situation but like I said I am not around my design books and can't remember off the top of my head.

All I'm saying is that this is a very complicated problem that will take a knowledgeable designer with a set of plans to get the best result, and even then they rarely get it perfect.

[Sailor]

Isn't one of the greatest advantages of having a schooner that you can adjust (add, remove, reef, shake out reefs etc.) your sails to balance her properly on any point of sail? One you get 4 or more lower sails on a boat, as long as she looks right and the sailplan is pretty close (ie; you already have her about there from what I understand) you'd be hard pressed (pardon the pun) not to be able to balance her pretty close. The more sails the easier it is to balance her because you have more surfaces to manipulate.

[Capt Zatarra]

Thanks for the replies guys.
Stephane and George, you are both right, and in thinking about what I am tring to work out I realized it is a question of which would I choose, easy and less work, or safety? When I but it that way I will always choose safety. Took me talking it out with some other sailors (all you out there who took the time to read and respond) here on this thread for me to figure out what I was looking for in the first place. I bet if I had ask 'would you sacrifice safety on a long range cruiser for convinience?' I would have sparked a better response.

Jonathan, Yes I have several design books and I have been pouring over them for days/weeks on this problem and years for the intire project. I figured the CLR first geometericly then the cut out balance on the pin technique. I wish i had access to the computer stuff that they are using these days, but i'm pretty stuck in the paper and pencil era. Any way to answer your question, In my case they both came within 12 inches of each other. Maybe i got lucky on this design becuase that seems really close for a 45ft water line. I under stand what your saying about the change to the CE as you fall off. The way I understand it is you start with your profile view and work to those more oblique angles. In the end you probably can not be sure till you put the boat in the water and push it side ways with your dink and find that point.

Sailor you are absolutely right that is the second greatest advantage of owning a schooner. I'm just trying to get my girl here as close to perfect as I can before I launch and then balance her from there.

Thanks all of ya Capt. Z.

Oh yea, the first greatest advantage of owning a schooner is sailing the prettiest boat on the water!

[Rapelapente]

Oh yea, the first greatest advantage of owning a schooner is sailing the prettiest boat on the water!

I agree !:d

[Capt Zatarra]

Gerard, Thanks for the information on the schooner legs I will be building them when the hull is done. I noticed in your pictures that your schooner is rigged exactly as I was asking about, no boom on the fore mast, and the sheets running through a block on the edge of the cabin top. What do you like and dislike about your sail like that? Capt. Z.

[A.Greever]

Well, I can't offer much advice, but I am one of the "lurkers" following this thread.

Thank you for sharing the pictures, it is a very fun project to follow!

[Rapelapente]

Gerard, Thanks for the information on the schooner legs I will be building them when the hull is done. I noticed in your pictures that your schooner is rigged exactly as I was asking about, no boom on the fore mast, and the sheets running through a block on the edge of the cabin top. What do you like and dislike about your sail like that? Capt. Z.

The use of the boomless fore is easy with the two sheets. Both are coming on a unique winch on port ie the one used for the centerboard, useless when sailing windward, while the centerboard is down. On Anthea the fore is not really overlapping, the clew point only reaches the main mast.

What I like:
-No boom on the way.
- more sail area ( with overlapping sail.).
- It's safer when gybing.
- I like the look it has.


What one could dislike::
- When close hauling you may need to use the two sheets to adjust the sail, since the blocks on the edge of the cabin top are too outside, on Anthea. Not a big deal even with the unique winch: for example on a starboard tack, I first tighten by hand on a cleat the starboard sheet, then take in the port one with the winch. On a bigger boat like yours, you'll need two winches. I have plenty of time to do that when tacking before the wind comes in the sail. It takes more time to write than to do it.
- When lowering the fore, it falls on the roof in a mess. To avoid it I've for several years scandalized the sail at sea. Then lowered it when in a harbor or at anchor. But I realized that the brailing lines chafed too much on the sail. So I set lazy jacks (can be seen on the videos on the web site (http://www.goelette-anthea.fr/pages/menu/anthea-sous-voiles.html)). The lazy jacks are working the same way they do on a boomed sail, because, tightening one of the sheet on the main mast emulates a boom.
- When hoisting the sail, the sheets are beating. You must keep everybody out of reach. Just like you have to do with a jib.

All considered, to my eyes, the advantages are superiors to the disadvantages. I won't change the fore for a boomed one.
One of my friend, with a sistership, changed for a boomed fore, with apparently no noticeable effect on the balance. His new sail is, of course, smaller.

[Rapelapente]

One more thing: when the centerboard is up (most of the time), I tighten the fore sheets by hand on a cleat.
I can do that only because the boat is relatively small, and I am a rather big boy...
When I reach my limit I use a tackle with THAT (http://91.68.211.8/bmi/www.petzl.com/files/imagecache/product_outdoor_slideshow_image/node_media/croll_6.jpg) at one end. Works well.
But I'm thinking to another solution for the next decade...:rolleyes:
Probably a cam cleat, locking the centerboard line, in order to leave the winch free for the fore sheets.

[Capt Zatarra]

Have you thought about putting some blocks and tackle type of set up on the sheet? I was thinking of something like a 4 to1, it requires a lot more line but I have seen it used on some of the old drawings of schooners before winches were common. I have a 3 to 1 on my stays'l and it works great. You do have to be cautious with the block that is up by the sail when the sail is flapping. Capt. Z.

[Rapelapente]

It's what the fore was initially fitted with, as drawn on the design. One tackle on each side.
Finding the two clew blocks too dangerous, I took them off.

[Capt Zatarra]

Do you have enough space between the clue and the block on the cabin top to put a lead? If there was 6 feet or more that would get that block down at lower level maybe bash you in the knees instead of the head!! Leads not only lower blocks they also reduce the amount of line needed. I love looking at your photo album on your web page. It motivates me to work harder so I can get back on the water. What does the name of your boat mean? Capt. Z.

[Rapelapente]

No room enough, it won't change the risk.
And on a sail boat you need more your knees than your head ! :D
Glad you like Anthéa's web site.
Anthéa is the name of the Greek Spring Godess. (Anthos= Flower and Excellence (figurative meaning) ).

[Capt Zatarra]

Beautiful name Gerarad. Someday we will sail together.

On a different vain. I have been trying to find out what it takes to put in some sort of lifting eye bolts in my boat, that would allow me to be hauled out with a crane without straps. I not even sure what they would be called, there must be some sort of good nautical name for them. As well some way to figure out where and how to put them. Any one out there know where I can find out more about this. I would think that it would need to be run down through the keel, and would need three lift points, two behind the center of gravity, port and starb'rd, and one farther forward on the center line maybe behind the foremast. This would allow a single crane line to lift the boat without stressing the hull or the gunnels and allow the boat to be hauled in places that did not have travel lifts. Any one have any resources or better yet have you done this. Capt. Z.

[George Ray]

I imagine that:
(0) Keel structure needs to carry the boat so maybe a huge I-beam can be the core of your ballast keel and then concrete encased.
(1) to carry load from off the centerline if you need/want more that two point lift would need a steel structure perpendicular to the keel to transfer loads back to the keel/center-line.
(2) allow passage through the interior and out thru deck openings for the wire bridle(s).
(3) all loads should be aligned to put elements in pure tension and eliminate/avoid bending, shear etc ...

http://www.lstmemorial.org/progress/ms0819h.jpg
While I never lifted my old 36' wooden LCVP came with a crane lifting bridle, I seem to recall it had a single steel eye forward bolted through oak centerline and a steel beam aft that was perpendicular to keel with a lifting eye at each end providing a total of three point lift. When I built the houseboat structure I allowed skylights where the wire bridle wold be during a crane lift. Don't know if LCVP were ever lifted with load or were always lifted light. I suspect 'light', or as light as it gets with a 6-71 diesel, a steel bow ramp, and 1/4" armor plate bolted on most of the hull sides.

[Rapelapente]

I think eye bolts strong enough to hold a boat as big as yours will stress more the structure than lifting it with beamed slings like these:

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6219/6332629884_fa5cfdbf05_z.jpg

[Capt Zatarra]

When my boat was lifted out the last time the slings put enough inward pressure that it did damage to my gunnels and the rub rails. The slings needed to be opened up wider so as not to put clamping pressure on the topside. Only I did not notice in the heat of the moment that the slings spreader bars were not sufficient for the width of my boat. Live and learn. I know what to watch for next time. But I was thinking if there was loft points I would not have to worry about it in the future. Capt. Z.

[Mad Scientist]

...Don't know if LCVP were ever lifted with load or were always lifted light...

FWIW, the 'modern' aluminum LCVP used by the RCN is lowered and recovered with just the 2 crew aboard. Then the LCVP is brought alongside for personnel loading. AFAIK, this is how the USN/USMC did it while 'island hopping' across the Pacific in WWII.

Tom

[George Ray]

Bulkheads at the strap points could take care of inward forces.

[Capt Zatarra]

It was above deck where the damage took place. The straps pressing against the gunnel, the cap rail, and the stations. In one place the strap ripped the cap off the rail. Below deck it is quite strong.

[Sailor]

Tom,
You're obviously in, did you serve in the tanker? I served in her from may 05 until october 10...... APs from time to time to get some sea time elswhere as well. Do we know each other by any chance do you think?

[Sailor]

Lin and Larry incorporated lifting eyes in their boat. They didn't have a three point lift, just two. They set a pad into the bottom of the lead keel and used it as an oversized washer for the keel bolt from what I recall. They then made sure to rout it such that the lifting pennant went through the hatch, skylight etc so that a single crane hook with a bridle could lift the boat. The actual eyes were cast into the floors and planned as such from the begining. I love the idea. I think any boat that is sized such that she may be lifted out like that should have that setup. Saves the crushed rub rails, mared topside paint and slings that slide around under the boat.

[Capt Zatarra]

I went back and read through the pages that mentioned lifting bolts in Pardey's book "Details of Classic Boat Construction" I had forgotten that Larry included them in the Taleisin. That is probably where the seed was planted in my mind some time ago. Now I'm trying to figure out where to install them to carry the weight right. Because I'm a schooner (well not actually me, but my boat is) I have to get the lift point behind the main mast, which is why I think I need two lift points in the aft section so that the lift cables could reach around the main mast. With the forward lift point just abaft the fore mast. What concerns me is that with the fulcrum point is just above the 17,000lbs of ballast that leaves 27,000lbs above the lift point . That is 10,000lbs on the wrong side of the of the lever arm! So it would make sence to raise the lift point, in order to but more weight below the lift point. Any thoughts. Capt. Z.

[JoshuaIII]

A 50ft weight a lot more then the 30 ft of Pardey, It doesn't feel right to me those lifting eyes...Too much pressure on them specially for a 50ft.

For the sling(strap), I have found the best way is just having some long 4x4 that go about 1 ft out of the boat both side. This will remove the pressure inward, as those beam lay on the deck will go inside the strap both side....

[harald]

Hi,
congratulations on your wonderfull thread, impressive achievement so far.

Concerning lift-points. The boat hull as a whole has an integral stability, like an egg which you can squeeze in your hand whith amazing force befor i crushes. provided the shell is intact and the forces are applied evenly. if you lift from anchor points on the keel, great consideration has been taken that the forces that are punctually applied do nor create stress points where structural damage occurs. the problem is that the forces applied then are different from the forces resulting from levers like mastes etc. where great care is taken that their streesing forces are well aplied. let alone the problem that the center of gravity is above the leverage points as you point out.
Sounds like an undertaking for an experienced NA, wrong judgement could lead to very severe structural damage.

on the other hand side hanging in straps gives forces that are more in line to forces aplied to the hull when sailing. much of the damages from this practice results when the straps slide on the hull. there are several techiques to minimise that. maybe a safer route to go?

greets, harry.

[wizbang 13]

The lifting rings sounds a bit daft, but I am not an engineer.
However, the idea of a crane that can , or will, pick up a heavy wood yacht , is def "out there".
As if, you cannot reach a boatyard, but a container crane will take the time and liability to do it?
Crushed rubrails? marred paint? compression damage? If that is happenning, you guys gotta build em stronger !

[Sailor]

I also thought 50 footers a bit large to lift using eyes. Though I'm not an engineer either. As to the two eyes in the back to get around the mast. I hadn't even thought of doing it until the masts were unstepped. I guess we had different things in mind. I see no reason why it couldn't be built strong enough to do that, it just might mean lots of structure inside the boat right where you want to put a bunk, or a galley stove or the engine or.......

[Capt Zatarra]

Down here in Nicaragua all the boats are lifted out by crane. I'll go back through some pictures and see if I can find some and post them. I was thinking that since I have this giant size piece of concrete under my boat that will have pieces of railroad track running the entire length of the ballast, I figured that if I welded a massive eye bolt to the R\R track that was imbedded in the concrete it should hold till the end of time. I had an idea that if I ran a two inch bolt up through the deck right behind the foremast say three inches behind the mast it would be fortifide by the mast bed at the deck level. I was thinking that if I brought two bolt up from the aft end of the keel out to the inside of the gunnels and put a stout piece of timber between the two bolts for compression load between the two bolts, the bolts would run right next to the bulkhead, so they would not be in the way. Actually I'm surprised this is not a common idea, it would insure that no boat would ever fall out of the slings, bottom paint would not be rubbed off, no scratching of topside paint, no stressing gunnels ect. I have seen that this is the way all air cushion vehicles are lifted.
On the other hand Stephane your idea of a 4x4 two feet wider then the boat is pure KISS genius, why didn't I think of that. It solves all the gunnel pressure problems in one easy move. Brilliant. Thanks you may have made things a whole lot easier for me. Capt. Z.

[George Ray]

If you get your lifting points worked out you could try the new soft/light/strong lines for an easy to store and easy to rig lifting bridle.

Amsteel/Dyneema
http://www.samsonrope.com/index.cfm?rope=190
http://www.dyneema.com/


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7ZGWrlxeP0

[Mad Scientist]

Tom,
You're obviously in, did you serve in the tanker? I served in her from may 05 until october 10...... APs from time to time to get some sea time elswhere as well. Do we know each other by any chance do you think?

Actually, I'm a bit older, and retired now (50 tomorrow!). Last time at sea was mid-2001.

I got my LCVP rides during PRO's last East Coast deployment in 1992. Certainly a unique sensation, bouncing around in a flat-bottomed (well, a very shallow V) boat, not able to see where we were going...I can't imagine what it was like for soldiers in WWII.

That was a 5-month attach-posting. I spent a few months getting PRE out of her 'final' refit in 1998, then went to PRV for her last few months before decommissioning.

BTW, did you see the pictures of PRE and the drydock? :! :rolleyes: (We need a good EEK! smiley)

Tom

[Capt Zatarra]

Hi,
congratulations on your wonderfull thread, impressive achievement so far.

greets, harry.

Harry thank you for these kind words (and your advise) I did not say this ealier when I meant too. Capt. Z.

[Capt Zatarra]

So a new development here, one of my wood sources told me that he could get me teak logs that is 19 inches in diameter. My question is, is this still too small to get decent planks from, I was not told how old these trees are. I would have to rent a woodmizer to mill them, or I could contract with a the local mill to cut them. Please let me know what you know! Capt. Z.

[Capt Zatarra]

Well as promised, here is how a haul out goes in Nicaragua.
First the crane sets up the outriggers and the boat pulls up to the wall.
In this case it is a woody from the the San Juan islands up in Washington State.


Straps are run under the keel

Then the straps are hooked to the spreader bars


The crane starts to lift the boat

[Capt Zatarra]

If the boat sits well in the straps, she is lifted out of the water
http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6041/6366248621_54a973eaba.jpg

And slowly Lifted above the wall, held from swinging by guide ropes
http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6096/6366290561_137b509c3c.jpg

The crane pivots the boat around on the hard
http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6099/6366294057_d05c844b3d.jpg

Block are placed under the keel
http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6101/6366308193_c557461cd7.jpg

[Capt Zatarra]

Sometimes just a little nudge is needed to but it straight up and down
Jack stands are new around here. This is the third boat to use them in this yard
The straps are released and the boat is standing all on it's own
Now all the fun starts! Well that's how it's done here. Capt. Z.

[wizbang 13]

http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6231/6366240695_28cec07e3f.jpgThis is a LITTLE bit too funky for me.