Smoothing the final interior varnish coat

[54 Conqueror]

The inside has been redone, except for buffing the chrome and stainless, and it looks fantastic. From a distance.

All of my horizontal surfaces have dust particles.

Bulkheads look great.

What's the secret to a glass finish on your horizontal surfaces? I don't think I can vacuum and dust any more than I did.

[David G]

If you want a deep, glossy, perfection... you'll have to knock it flat with a sanding block and fine sandpaper. Then work your way up through the rubbing compounds. For full instructions, see Bob Flexnor's book.

http://www.textbooks.com/BooksDescription.php?BKN=685880&mcid=XCS-PriceGrabber-9780762106219-M&utm_medium=shoppingengine&utm_term=9780762106219M&utm_source=pricegrabber

[Tom Freeman]

I've struggled with this a lot. I don't think there is any one single secret, but rather a combination of a lot of little things and a healthy dose of luck. Here are some things that I do to try to get a perfect final coat.


Vacuum twice, let the dust re-settle and then vacuum again. Pay specific attention to "dust collection areas" like inside corners and screw holes.
Wet all of the floors in the area nearly to the point of having standing water.
Curtain everything off as much as possible and try to eliminate any sources of air circulation.
Wear a hat.
Wear clothes that are as dust free as possible. I like old dress shirts. Put the painting shirt on minutes before starting the final coat. No fleece or the like. Stay away from the cat beforehand and all areas where the cat likes to hang out.
Tack everything before the job, and then tack each section right before applying the varnish.
Thin the varnish about twice as much as normal. On the last coat, I'm just trying to add the shine - not build new material.
Have 2-3 "final coat" brushes. I have several brushes that I only use for final coats, and I have several ready to go in case one picks up dust. I switch in a hearbeat if I start seeing any flecks.
Pray a lot. I saw one job a couple of years ago on a cabin exterior where the painter did everything right, and then a cottonwood tree decided to let go with the pollen right in the middle of the job when the wind kicked up suddenly. Some things just happen.
Good luck. :)

[Jay Greer]

The secret of obtaining a fine varnish job is, of course, to have a clean surface to lay the varnish onto. Varnish must be stained into a clean container. After that, a well cleaned varnish brush is an absolute must. There are several postings that I have made on this subject.
Jay

[Ron Williamson]

If the nubbies aren't too bad,try buffing them off with a piece of brown paper bag.
R

[Dan Newton]

Are you working indoors? Have you tried using an air filter? The steps mentioned above are necessary but not sufficient for a nice finish. The fact that the vertical surfaces are good is an indication that the substrate is clean enough, but if the airborn particulate is not controlled it will ruin any amount of careful application.

[pcford]

The secret of obtaining a fine varnish job is, of course, to have a clean surface to lay the varnish onto. Varnish must be stained into a clean container. After that, a well cleaned varnish brush is an absolute must. There are several postings that I have made on this subject.
Jay

Of course.
As the original poster pointed out that horizontal surfaces were more affected with dust than the vertical...it is obvious that the problem is not a dusty surface, unstrained unicorn horn varnish, or an unclean 65 year old Tibetan mink brush.

The problems is, as DavidG noted, dust in the air. As a restorer of speedboats, dust on the deck was always a problem. Dust on a deck is very noticeable when a boat is tied up at a dock. And unfortunately, owners...who know nothing about fits or surface preparatiion will bitch like hell if there is dust in the finish. And the presence of dust is pretty much between you and God. For example, a day with strong static electricity will suck dust onto your drying final coat.

Sure, it's important to strain varnish, have a clean surface, etc. But the real problem is dust in the workspace. The old time builders would use a separate workspace for the final coat. One solution was a zinc lined room with water on the floor.

The solution which is used by speedboat restorers is to sand out the finish with ultra fine sandpaper...starting with 1000 (more coarse if necessary.) and then work down to 1500 or 2000. Then rubbing compound is used...I use Meguiar's but some use 3M Finesse-it.

Good luck!

[John P Lebens]

The solution which is used by speedboat restorers is to sand out the finish with ultra fine finish...starting with 1000 (more coarse if necessary.) and then work down to 1500 or 2000. Then rubbing compound is used...I use Meguiar's but some use 3M Finesse-it.



A local boat varnisher with a great reputation uses 2000 grit, then 3M Perfect-It 3000 Trizact Spot Finishing Material. It works for her. Another uses a pressurized garden spraying device to mist the floor surfaces near the work.

[pcford]

A local boat varnisher with a great reputation uses 2000 grit, then 3M Perfect-It 3000 Trizact Spot Finishing Material. It works for her. Another uses a pressurized garden spraying device to mist the floor surfaces near the work.

I have not used the product...it is a 3M product so I believe it is likely good. The idea is to rub out the dust, then the scratches left by the previous abrasives with finer and finer rubbing/polishing compounds. Ultimately, you apply carnuba wax.

[Jay Greer]

Of course.
As the original poster pointed out that horizontal surfaces were more affected with dust than the vertical...it is obvious that the problem is not a dusty surface, unstrained unicorn horn varnish, or an unclean 65 year old Tibetan mink brush.

The problems is, as DavidG noted, dust in the air. As a restorer of speedboats, dust on the deck was always a problem. Dust on a deck is very noticeable when a boat is tied up at a dock. And unfortunately, owners...who know nothing about fits or surface preparatiion will bitch like hell if there is dust in the finish. And the presence of dust is pretty much between you and God. For example, a day with strong static electricity will suck dust onto your drying final coat.

Sure, it's important to strain varnish, have a clean surface, etc. But the real problem is dust in the workspace. The old time builders would use a separate workspace for the final coat. One solution was a zinc lined room with water on the floor.

The solution which is used by speedboat restorers is to sand out the finish with ultra fine sandpaper...starting with 1000 (more coarse if necessary.) and then work down to 1500 or 2000. Then rubbing compound is used...I use Meguiar's but some use 3M Finesse-it.

Good luck!
When all else fails, try ion polarization.
Jay

[pcford]

When all else fails, try ion polarization.
Jay

I did try a negative ion generator...it was not successful.

The best method is just to get rid of the dust in the finish, Jay.

[DuncanvdH]

How much time do you allow the varnish to harden before the sanding and buffing if I may ask?
I have a hatch that is varnished half a year ago and it was very easily sanded (3M 2000 grit) and polished (meguiars ultimate compound) compared to a another piece I varnished a couple
of weeks ago. The varnish is Epifanes clear, single pot.

[pcford]

When polishing out varnish came into vogue several years ago, it was said you have to wait three weeks. However, I have waited much less time than that...less than a week.

It depends on the environment. I was always varnishing inside in a heated space. Outside, in northwestern Europe, more time may be needed.

By the way...I start more coarse than you; in fact usually I don't use 2000 grit. Not saying that I am right and you are wrong.

[Jay Greer]

I did try a negative ion generator...it was not successful.

The best method is just to get rid of the dust in the finish, Jay.
Even worse than dust is "The flight of the balloon spiders," that occures only on days of a final paint or varnish coat in California. It makes a grown man make unprintable comments, cry and run head first into the nearest piling.
Jay

[JimConlin]

Other possibilities are to tent the victim with new PE film and do the varnishing freshly showered and naked. I'm not saying that I do this.

[Todd Bradshaw]

In my opinion, this is the best sandpaper you can get for polishing flat varnished surfaces. The disks give you the most paper area for the money, whether you use them on a random orbit, or wet, by hand on a block the way I do (makes them last a lot longer). Grits in the package go from 1,500 all the way up to 12,000 and you just work your way up through the grits, which doesn't take long unless it's a huge surface. It's well worth the $18 to have a pack of these in your tool box for various polishing jobs.
http://www.woodcraft.com/Product/2005232/10574/MicroMesh-5-Disk-Assortment-Pack.aspx

After that, a little bit of polishing compound on a rag will get you a finish like this (clear water-based varnish over a black base coat).
http://webpages.charter.net/tbradshaw/2030TB%20017%20003.jpg

[pcford]

In my opinion, this is the best sandpaper you can get for polishing flat varnished surfaces. The disks give you the most paper area for the money, whether you use them on a random orbit, or wet, by hand on a block the way I do (makes them last a lot longer). Grits in the package go from 1,500 all the way up to 12,000 and you just work your way up through the grits, which doesn't take long unless it's a huge surface. It's well worth the $18 to have a pack of these in your tool box for various polishing jobs.
http://www.woodcraft.com/Product/2005232/10574/MicroMesh-5-Disk-Assortment-Pack.aspx



Evidently the "denomination" of Micro mesh is different than normal sandpaper.

Well, that looks fine...personally, I buy sandpaper in rolls (3M Gold) and do very little machine sanding. It might work for you, but I can't understand how you could block with a machine.

[Todd Bradshaw]

but I can't understand how you could block with a machine.

I don't believe I said anything about blocking with a machine. I do block sanding by hand. The process is quick enough that there really doesn't seem to be much reason to ever use them on a machine. The disks are made for a ROS, but the only reason I buy them that way is because you get more surface area for the money and they have a tough backing that holds up well when used wet. As far as I can tell, the grit denominations for Micromesh are about the same as those for any other sandpaper and the surface you end up with is simply a matter of how fine you choose to take it.

[pcford]

I don't believe I said anything about blocking with a machine. I do block sanding by hand. The process is quick enough that there really doesn't seem to be much reason to ever use them on a machine. The disks are made for a ROS, but the only reason I buy them that way is because you get more surface area for the money and they have a tough backing that holds up well when used wet. As far as I can tell, the grit denominations for Micromesh are about the same as those for any other sandpaper and the surface you end up with is simply a matter of how fine you choose to take it.

Can't understand why round is more economical. What do you use for a backing block?

[pcford]

As far as I can tell, the grit denominations for Micromesh are about the same as those for any other sandpaper

Then you'll have to explain this from the url you gave:
"Micro-Mesh is a unique cushioned abrasive capable of giving very fine & very controlled scratch patterns. The grits range from 1500 to 12000. The 1500 is slightly more coarse than a conventional 600 grit sandpaper.."

[chuckt]

A buffing pad came with my Festool sander/ It looks like sheeps' wool. Does a really nice job buffing and shining. I haven't tried it on my semi gloss paint yet but was thinking of doing so for this very purpose, i.e. to get out dust particles.

[Todd Bradshaw]

Then you'll have to explain this from the url you gave:
"Micro-Mesh is a unique cushioned abrasive capable of giving very fine & very controlled scratch patterns. The grits range from 1500 to 12000. The 1500 is slightly more coarse than a conventional 600 grit sandpaper.."

Could be, as I've never tried to compare grit size with a magnifying glass. I usually hit these things with 220 and 320 wet-or-dry paper (used wet) to start with. That's pretty much all the leveling you're going to get and after that it's just polishing out the surface scratches with finer and finer grits. Then I'll use 400 and 600 paper and then start with the Micromesh and run through the entire range. I don't know whether the 1500 Micromesh after the 600 is retrograde motion or not, but it doesn't seem to matter, since everything after that will be micromesh. I don't own a buffer, so I take it up far enough that I won't need one.

Back when I was in college I worked for a sculptor, hand-sanding and polishing big (up to 200 lbs.) rounded, solid polyester resin castings. When they were done, they sat on 3/4" thick plexiglass slabs with beveled, polished edges for bases. We used a sabre-saw to cut them out, cutting down a bead of motor oil to keep the blade cool and the cut line from melting back together. Then the edge had to be hand-sanded fair and polished. That part of the process could be done with a block backing up the paper. After all that practice, something simple like polishing the varnish on a table top is a piece of cake. I usually just use a couple rubber sanding blocks with the paper or disk wrapped around them - or just a flat block of wood maybe 3" square. It takes some time, but it's certainly not difficult. Works on buffalo, too...if you can catch one.

http://webpages.charter.net/tbradshaw/horn-001a.jpg

[pcford]

http://webpages.charter.net/tbradshaw/horn-001a.jpg

Beautiful job on the buffalo powder horn...Buffalo horn is a beautiful material...the image hints at what you would see in reality. I was thinking about buying buffalo horn eyeglass frames...but the optician said they would be too delicate. (that and they cost $900.) So I got wooden frames...turns out they are delicate as well.

[Larks]

I had a similar thread on varnish finishes a little while ago and someone posted that the static of flourescent lights over the work will attract dust and the let it all go to fall on your work after they are turned off.

[Tom Freeman]

Many interesting ideas and suggestions here. Since I have a wealth of bits getting varnished horizontally in the shop right now, I may even try a couple of controlled experiments with respect to rubbing out the finish coat.

On a more pragmatic note, I have noticed that since our boat gets used pretty regularly, and since I don't tend to rub it with a diaper between uses, that the normal dust and wear and tear pretty soon overshadows all but the most aggregious blemishes in the varnish. And it still looks pretty damned good. Not Tahoe good, but more than good enough for Poulsbo. :)

[Lew Barrett]

....the normal dust and wear and tear pretty soon overshadows all but the most egregious (ftfy) blemishes in the varnish. And it still looks pretty damned good. Not Tahoe good, but more than good enough for Poulsbo. :)


Worth quoting for the cruising boatman. Sometimes these things fix themselves a bit, or you learn to be satisfied with an adequate protective coat if the blem isn't in your face too much. What do they say? "It ain't a piano." (Or a guitar).

I guess for small boats (and interior work) you can up the ante a bit. For the bigger ones, you inevitably learn to accept a certain amount of "pain."

[Brad887]

Other possibilities are to tent the victim with new PE film and do the varnishing freshly showered and naked. I'm not saying that I do this.

My varnish usually has a few hairs in it when I'm fully dressed. Can't imagine what it would look like if I were naked :)

[Tom Freeman]

This thread has been in the back of my mind for a couple of weeks. I picked up a small bit tonight that was nearing final coat and wet sanded it with 1500 and then hand rubbed it with Finesse It. It looks smoother but less glossy than the unrubbed sister part. Looks a little better than what I would expect from a good coat of Epiphanes Rubbed Effect varnish applied very well. I'll continue to experiment with this on small bits in the shop.

[pcford]

This thread has been in the back of my mind for a couple of weeks. I picked up a small bit tonight that was nearing final coat and wet sanded it with 1500 and then hand rubbed it with Finesse It. It looks smoother but less glossy than the unrubbed sister part. Looks a little better than what I would expect from a good coat of Epiphanes Rubbed Effect varnish applied very well. I'll continue to experiment with this on small bits in the shop.

You're on the track; now finish with carnuba wax. You will have almost all of your gloss back.

[Lew Barrett]

Also, Finessit comes in grades (http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/3M/en_US/Marine/Home/Products/Catalog/?PC_7_RJH9U5230GE3E02LECIE20S4K7_nid=GSNHRT84LXbe9 NQK7NZ8TZgl)

There is a "first cut" grade for swirl removal (which is what i think we get at Fisheries) and a final polish grade.
I've never gone beyond the standard (compounding) grade when making repairs though

[Tom Freeman]

The Marine Finesse-It II Finishing Material is what I have in the shop. It is a liquid.