PDA

View Full Version : What is "market hunting"?



Phillip Allen
04-12-2011, 08:46 AM
Paul suggested I go ahead and start this...this may not be a good day for me but maybe I can give it more attention as the hours go by...

I'll start by saying what I think of first when I hear "market hunting".

I think of water fowl, punt guns, smelly outdoor markets and huge waste of ducks gone bad...and man-caused extinction of species

Paul Pless
04-12-2011, 08:51 AM
Being a boat guy myself I too tend to first think of waterfowl. But, quickly can turn my thoughts to bison, beaver, seals, etc. etc. One positive thing about waterfowl market hunters is that they did use much more of the bird (meat) than did the beaver or bison hunters.

Phillip Allen
04-12-2011, 08:51 AM
I think it must include ocean harvests as well...the blue fin tuna posts got me thinking about this again

Ian McColgin
04-12-2011, 08:53 AM
There's that. Then there's the tale of the two old Cape Verdian descent guys out here and their beagle couple who can take a couple dozen rabbits on one drive across a cranberry bog, not a shot wasted, and sell them.

There is also an interesting form of market fishing down here. "Head boats" (charge by the ticket as opposed to charter boats that typically take 6 or fewer for a fixed price) that have most of their "passengers" from Roxberry or Jamaica Plain down to pull as many pogys as possible, ice them, and take them back for sale in Boston.

S.V. Airlie
04-12-2011, 09:01 AM
Well after reading the histories of some now extinct species, the passenger pigeon comes to mind. Last one after millions are killed was Martha...RIP1914?

Breakaway
04-12-2011, 09:22 AM
Chris Smith, founder of Chris-Craft, was a market hunter. Made his money there, started building boats--gun punts--and finally the boats many of us have enjoyed.
While puntgunners did sell the waterfowl meat to the large city markets, the bigger money was in the feathers. Ladies hats, the millinery trade.

Kevin

S.V. Airlie
04-12-2011, 09:24 AM
Especially snowy egrets.. Hat wear....

Phillip Allen
04-12-2011, 09:27 AM
Chris Smith, founder of Chris-Craft, was a market hunter. Made his money there, started building boats--gun punts--and finally the boats many of us have enjoyed.
While puntgunners did sell the waterfowl meat to the large city markets, the bigger money was in the feathers. Ladies hats, the millinery trade.

Kevin

women are dangerous :)

Phillip Allen
04-12-2011, 09:28 AM
so... whaling is certainly market hunting... still done today and extinction is a visible possibility

Bruce Taylor
04-12-2011, 09:29 AM
One positive thing about waterfowl market hunters is that they did use much more of the bird (meat) than did the beaver or bison hunters.

The beaver trappers I know eat every scrap of the meat, including the tail. It's pretty tasty, too.

S.V. Airlie
04-12-2011, 09:29 AM
What gets me is the indiscriminate shooting of sea ducks in the Chesapeake Bay just for sport...No desire to pick them up muchless eat them.

Andrew Craig-Bennett
04-12-2011, 09:31 AM
I also thought first of punt gunners.

Funnily enough the little egret has colonised our local estuaries over the past few years, probably due to the changing climate.

S.V. Airlie
04-12-2011, 09:39 AM
The first Audubon Society was an off shoot of Field and Stream. The organization now known or recognized was one that initiated the protection of the Snowy Egret.. Don't know who long the Field and Stream Audubon Soc. survived. I've got a membership to it dated 1888.

Phillip Allen
04-12-2011, 09:39 AM
It is important to note that I grew up thinking of the atrocities done by market hunters... passenger pigeons, buffalo, wright whales, even rhinos...
the rhino (I think) was killed for sport and to allow China to blossom into a billion people...not to eat necessarily but it was STILL market hunting. Sport is a market and if hunting bears in Arkansas was sporting, then it was market hunting that made them go extinct (since, re-introduced).

Selling tourism in Colorado to the hunting "trade" is more market hunting...(an example only)

S.V. Airlie
04-12-2011, 09:44 AM
the rhino (I think) was killed for sport and to allow China to blossom into a billion people. Are you suggesting Phillip that powdered rhino horn actually worked? :)

Garret
04-12-2011, 09:53 AM
I've got a membership to it dated 1888.

Aw c'mon Jamie - you're not that old! :D:D

Sorry - just had to do it....

Phillip Allen
04-12-2011, 09:59 AM
the rhino (I think) was killed for sport and to allow China to blossom into a billion people. Are you suggesting Phillip that powdered rhino horn actually worked? :)
just like Dumbo's feather

S.V. Airlie
04-12-2011, 10:01 AM
Aw c'mon Jamie - you're not that old! :D:D

Sorry - just had to do it.... I feel like it at times Garret..No it was a membership to my G aunt...

S.V. Airlie
04-12-2011, 10:03 AM
just like Dumbo's feather Dumbo was an elephant...Phillip! Okay you do know I'm teasing ya...?

ps..I might be a good idea to post a pic Phillip what a punt gun was or is. I know and you do but a lot out there may not know what one is.

Breakaway
04-12-2011, 10:04 AM
the atrocities done by market hunters... passenger pigeons, buffalo,

I dont know if I;d call buffalo hunting market hunting. The impetus was land-clearing, to make way for railroads. That the hunters were paid is akin to the crews who get paid to blast a road through the mountains.

Kevin

George.
04-12-2011, 10:04 AM
Market hunting is common in Africa, especially the rainforest countries. Hunters kill everything from monkeys to antelope to whatever, and sell it as "bush meat" to mining, logging, and construction companies with hordes of cheap labor to feed.

As a result, most remaining African forests are virtually devoid of wildlife. You can walk for days down bush trails and never see anything larger than a squirrel.

Andrew Craig-Bennett
04-12-2011, 10:09 AM
Good point, George.

Like the Chinese countryside, which is silent, because there are no birds.

S.V. Airlie
04-12-2011, 10:11 AM
I dont know if I;d call buffalo hunting market hunting. The impetus was land-clearing, to make way for railroads. That the hunters were paid is akin to the crews who get paid to blast a road through the mountains.

Kevin The hides actually..Most were left to rot.. It was most definitely market hunting

Phillip Allen
04-12-2011, 10:38 AM
The hides actually..Most were left to rot.. It was most definitely market hunting

driven by our industrial revolution... thousands of miles of buffalo hide belts and factory machinery...later the bones were gathered for fertilizer...

Phillip Allen
04-12-2011, 10:39 AM
Dumbo was an elephant...Phillip! Okay you do know I'm teasing ya...?

ps..I might be a good idea to post a pic Phillip what a punt gun was or is. I know and you do but a lot out there may not know what one is.

I think it was Andrew who had the pics of punt guns

Cuyahoga Chuck
04-12-2011, 06:29 PM
Here in Ohio we had a market huntress who shot game and sold the meat to feed her impoverished family. Market hunting was a definite step up from working as a teenaged household servant who had to sleep in the barn. Fortunately she didn't try to get retribution on her former employer. Her name was Annie Oakley.

Memphis Mike
04-12-2011, 06:40 PM
I didn't know Republicans were concerned about the environment and just look at you guys in here chattering away. Be careful....someone might hear you.;)

Old Dryfoot
04-12-2011, 07:48 PM
There is a long list of species that will never be seen on this earth again aside from a photo as a result of this type of hunting.

Phillip Allen
04-12-2011, 08:14 PM
There is a long list of species that will never be seen on this earth again aside from a photo as a result of this type of hunting.

this is true but also we support market hunting when we aren't thinking about it...I'm not totally against market hunting because of it.

tuna...market hunting
sardines...market hunting
even caviar
you get the picture

now on to other market hunting:
hunting...not the animals themselves but the tourism connected with it...
"come and fish in our state"
"come hunt in out state"
(Alaska is big on inviting folks to hunt for the purpose of shaking them down for taxes and such)

Keith Wilson
04-12-2011, 08:22 PM
Funnily enough the little egret has colonised our local estuaries over the past few years, probably due to the changing climate.Interesting. Great egrets are all over the place around here, seem to be more every year (in summer). 100 years ago egret feathers sold for $32/oz, twice the price of gold.

Phillip Allen
04-12-2011, 08:24 PM
Interesting. Great egrets are all over the place around here, seem to be more every year (in summer). 100 years ago egret feathers sold for $32/oz, twice the price of gold.

the demise of DDT might have something to do with it

Waddie
04-12-2011, 08:45 PM
What say we all be a little more precise about our terminology on this thread? Hunting anything fish or fowl for the purpose of resale is clearly "market hunting".

Enticing hunters to come to Colorado is not strictly speaking, "market hunting".
Encouraging tourism isn't technically "market hunting".
Killing for sport is not "market hunting".

All of the above may be abuses and you have a right to that opinion. However, using the term "market hunting" in such a general sense encompassing such a broad spectrum of activities it soon loses any meaning, including it's ability to inspire disgust.

Does my buying a local fishing license make me a market hunter ? Under a broad definition the answer could be yes!! If the term "market hunter" ever gets widely expressed that broadly, it will have lost all it's power, and public indignation over market hunting disappears.

I might ask; what does "Green" mean to you today? Now it's just a marketing ploy, and almost anything can be "spun" to look Green !!

If everyone can be defined as a victim, does the term have any validity?

regards,
Waddie

Keith Wilson
04-12-2011, 08:50 PM
the demise of DDT might have something to do with itIt certainly helped. I see bald eagles over my house fairly regularly now, and I'm pretty much right in the city. Red tail hawks are getting to be almost as common as pigeons.

Phillip Allen
04-12-2011, 08:52 PM
What say we all be a little more precise about our terminology on this thread? Hunting anything fish or fowl for the purpose of resale is clearly "market hunting".

Enticing hunters to come to Colorado is not strictly speaking, "market hunting".
Encouraging tourism isn't technically "market hunting".
Killing for sport is not "market hunting".

All of the above may be abuses and you have a right to that opinion. However, using the term "market hunting" in such a general sense encompassing such a broad spectrum of activities it soon loses any meaning, including it's ability to inspire disgust.

Does my buying a local fishing license make me a market hunter ? Under a broad definition the answer could be yes!! If the term "market hunter" ever gets widely expressed that broadly, it will have lost all it's power, and public indignation over market hunting disappears.

I might ask; what does "Green" mean to you today? Now it's just a marketing ploy, and almost anything can be "spun" to look Green !!

If everyone can be defined as a victim, does the term have any validity?

regards,
Waddie

I understand your concerns...but I would like to consider it a bit more carefully before giving up altogether

In the mid 60's I heard about Colorado selling 1000 licenses for elk in one valley...the first day, 4 elk were killed...two weeks later the same 4 elk were all that were taken...the conclusion was that the fish and game was in the business of SELLING licenses!

Waddie
04-12-2011, 08:58 PM
I understand your concerns...but I would like to consider it a bit more carefully before giving up altogether

In the mid 60's I heard about Colorado selling 1000 licenses for elk in one valley...the first day, 4 elk were killed...two weeks later the same 4 elk were all that were taken...the conclusion was that the fish and game was in the business of SELLING licenses!

Very shrewd marketing by the state, but not really "market hunting". Funny story, though. :)

regards,
Waddie

Phillip Allen
04-12-2011, 09:00 PM
Very shrewd marketing by the state, but not really "market hunting". Funny story, though. :)

regards,
Waddie
you wouldn't qualify that as selling meat on the hoof?

Phillip Allen
04-12-2011, 09:27 PM
the problem with the elk story is that in those days (according to my source at the time) the fees from licensing went directly to Colorado's general fund... reinforcing the truth that politicians are willing to sell anything

Old Dryfoot
04-12-2011, 10:29 PM
I think Waddie is correct about defining what is meant by the term "market hunting", there are a lot of problems with sport hunting and fishing though I wouldn't consider them to be market hunting. As for what's wrong with commercial fishing, that's a topic that deserves it's own thread.

I feel that market hunting should be outlawed everywhere in the world, no special considerations given.

Waddie
04-12-2011, 11:06 PM
the problem with the elk story is that in those days (according to my source at the time) the fees from licensing went directly to Colorado's general fund... reinforcing the truth that politicians are willing to sell anything

That Colorado story reminds me of a fishing trip I took with a friend to Montauk State Park in the Ozarks, which has a trout hatchery.

I walked in to buy the license, where the clerk at the bait store was very much a "Deliverance" type fellow.

I asked for a three day permit. No problem, $6 he said. I laid out the bills.

Then he asked, "do you want to catch trout? That's another $6". Reluctantly, I laid out another $6.

Just as I turned to go, he drawled,"So, do you wanta' keep those trout? That'll be another $6".

WTF, I think I said out loud!! He replied, "Those first two permits only allow you to catch the trout, the last one is for if you might want to eat it." I laid the money on the counter, and considered myself lucky to get away with any actual fish at all...!! :)

PS. Prices are a guess--bad memory, you know

regards,
Waddie

Chip-skiff
04-13-2011, 12:55 AM
I dont know if I'd call buffalo hunting market hunting. The impetus was land-clearing, to make way for railroads. That the hunters were paid is akin to the crews who get paid to blast a road through the mountains.

Actually, the short-term goal was to destroy the food supply of the Plains tribes. It wasn't hunting, as I understand the term, but rather an atrocity.

Phillip Allen
04-13-2011, 01:11 AM
Actually, the short-term goal was to destroy the food supply of the Plains tribes. It wasn't hunting, as I understand the term, but rather an atrocity.
worth a read

http://www.texasbeyondhistory.net/redriver/images/rr-whosebuffalo.pdf

S.V. Airlie
04-13-2011, 07:53 AM
It certainly helped. I see bald eagles over my house fairly regularly now, and I'm pretty much right in the city. Red tail hawks are getting to be almost as common as pigeons. There isa big difference between the BEagle and RedTail Hawks and even ospreys..BEagles eat carrion which may actually have died from DDT posioning..dead fish on the bank looks good fro breakfast and DDT accumulates in the fatty tissue. Ospreys were also affected but not to the degree as Eagles populations suffered....Early '70's there were twelve pair in CT.. Six pr. at the mouth of the CT River, three on Mason's Island. Three in Niantic. In the early 70'sI was involved with transplanting eggs from MD where the hatch rate was better than CT. To determine one of two hypothesis: was osprey behavior at the nests due to poor parenting or due to high concentrations of pesticides. Those CT nests successfully hatched chicks at the same % as those in MD. Those eggs sent to MD. hatched at the same rate as those in CT. Not behavioral issues. Analysis of the eggs also confirmed egg shell thinning which brings about breakage and higher concentrations od DDT,DDE poisons. Red Tails being higher in the food chain also suffered but
the food chain comprising their prey was only two links..hence less concentrations of DDT.ex..vegetation to rabbit.

S.V. Airlie
04-13-2011, 08:13 AM
What say we all be a little more precise about our terminology on this thread? Hunting anything fish or fowl for the purpose of resale is clearly "market hunting".

Enticing hunters to come to Colorado is not strictly speaking, "market hunting".
Encouraging tourism isn't technically "market hunting".
Killing for sport is not "market hunting".

All of the above may be abuses and you have a right to that opinion. However, using the term "market hunting" in such a general sense encompassing such a broad spectrum of activities it soon loses any meaning, including it's ability to inspire disgust.

Does my buying a local fishing license make me a market hunter ? Under a broad definition the answer could be yes!! If the term "market hunter" ever gets widely expressed that broadly, it will have lost all it's power, and public indignation over market hunting disappears.

I might ask; what does "Green" mean to you today? Now it's just a marketing ploy, and almost anything can be "spun" to look Green !!

If everyone can be defined as a victim, does the term have any validity?

regards,
Waddie I think in part, Marketing involves wild game species specifically. Obviously much of our meat is raised specifically for the purpose of consumption at Purdue etc...Much of the old market hunting techniques were indiscriminate killing, wholesale murder, in essence, with no controls. A fine line granted.

marshcat
04-13-2011, 10:08 AM
Reminds me of the story about the undercover Game Warden. He went out in a boat with a known 'dynamiter', who would toss a stick into the water, then gather up all the fish that were killed by the blast. Just as the guy got ready to light the fuse, the Warden whipped out his badge and said 'You're under arrest!'. The guy lit the fuse, tossed the stick to the warden and said 'You wanna talk, or you wanna fish?"

Cuyahoga Chuck
04-13-2011, 10:37 AM
Here on Lake Erie thare is a small but never-dormant industry that tries to sell illegally caught perch and walleye. Those that have been aprehended lose their boats and equipment, pay very large fines and often go to jail.