Back to Square One

[Paul Pless]

Over the past week I submitted a design proposal for a cruising sailboat to three designers. I also requested study plans for an existing design from another designer, and approached one other individual designer to see if he may be interested in seeing the proposal. All but one designer turned me down. And the one who accepted the project (a very well known and highly regarded designer) wants more money than I am currently willing to pay for a design study. His price is very fair for a complete set of final plans that would also include consultation during construction. Please note, do not consider this post to be a bitter indictment of any of the designers, well maybe it is in one instance. I am a little peeved that an individual who formerly sold study plans for a certain design, won't do so anymore as of 1 April 2004.

So, allow me to step back and simplify my request. Please feel free to offer advice and criticism. I am basically looking for a design (not neccesarily for homebuilt construction) that meets most of the following criteria:

1. A liveaboard cruising sailboat for two liveaboards.
2. Lightdraft (3-4 feet ideally), primarily a coastal and river cruiser, however, the boat would at times have to make lengthy blue water passages.
3. The boat would need to support a fishing skiff as a tender. ( I am very open to suggestions on skiff type and the means of storing it or towing it for long periods of time.)
4. At this time I have no rig preferences, due to some of the complicationg factors of the design.
5. At this time I have no lower or upper length or displacement limits.
6. The fishing skiff has to be large enough to plane with a 10 hp outboard and support at least one person standing and casting flies.

I am not taking this dream of mine lightly, I know somewhere out there a solution exists. Basically I am looking for a boat capable of circumnavigation, yet when I get near a landmass, I want to get really close to said landmass.

Paul

[JimConlin]

If cost is a concern, i'd look first at existing manufactured boats. For the moderate draft you want, this probably means a centerboarder. The Allied Seabreeze, Pearson 35 and Tartan 34 .

Have you thought of multihulls?

[Paul Pless]

Jim,

Multihulls are not a viable option for me. They reportedly don't do well in high lattitude sailing. And they need to be loaded lightly to perform as intended. A circumnavigator (especially one carrying a large skiff on deck?) is neccesarily going to be carrying alot of gear. While I donot want to rule out cost as a factor, it is not important at this point. Please tell me that did not come out sounding glib.

My original thoughts centered on a large (50 foot on deck) schooner rigged dory with dual centerboards. I even found a very similar design, but am no longer permitted to buy the study plans because the designer deems the boat not suitable for amatuer construction. I have to hire a professional builder to buy the complete building plans for me.

I could go smaller if the skiff could be towed. It has been suggested that I fit a tight cover to the skiff and tow it 150' behind the cruiser. Is this practical? Is this safe in heavy weather?

I have just received a private message from a naval architect that does show some promise. I'll keep you posted.

Please continue to make suggestions. I have admired (albeit from a distance) all of the cruisers you listed above.

Thanks,
Paul

[Venchka]

Ok, Paul, I'm going to play pain-in-the-butt to your flyfishing requirement. I'm NOT a world class fly fisherperson...but I have been called a world class pain-in-the-butt. :D

People flyfish a) in waders, b) in innertubes, c) canoes, d) 10' transoms on both ends & pedestal seat plastic things, e) inflatable pontoon and aluminum frame rowing catamarans, f) tennis shoes and shorts, etc. etc. etc.

Figure 2-3-4 weeks minumum of open water between fly fishing holes.

Inflatable fishing boat that stows away at sea. Nesting 12' Spindrift dinghy from B & B Yachts or similar. Possibly scaled up/beefed up for a larger motor. Keep it at 2 halves that can be hung/lashed from davits or on deck.

Do you really really really have to circumnavigate? I understand completely if you do and wish you good luck and bon voyage. OR, would a semi-circumnavigation of North & Central America fill your cruising time frame? Think about the fly fishing possibilities along the coast and up the rivers from Goose Bay, Labrador down, around and up to British Columbia and Alaska. Don't forget a year or two among the tropical islands and places like Cost Rica. The Bay Islands. Belize. Steelhead in Oregon and Washington. How far up the Columbia and Snake rivers can you go? Don't forget the inland river systems and Great Lakes. Shucks, you won't have time to circumnavigate.

[ 04-29-2004, 01:25 AM: Message edited by: Venchka ]

[Wild Dingo]

Paul... Im gonna bring back that cat thought... okay so you say that
they dont do well in high lattitude sailingIm curious here... so your looking at a boat essentially that has close to shoal draft yet can do ocean crossing... sounds like the perfect cat or tri discription... the dinghy on deck issue is a non event if say you look at a wharram which has an enourmous deck area that would accomodate the dinghy and as many fly fishers that can stand out there and swing a rod!

I wonder what all the cat and tri sailors in the upper reaches would say to your comments? just a thought I know of quite a few cat and tris that have been built and sailed throughout that area...

aahhh well go for the Shane Wild Dingo Innevitable back stop position of if in doubt give Murray Petersons Coastal Schooner a clout! :D but thats no good the drafts too deep... mmmmm whaddabout Parkers designs?... theres a whole bunch of em to choose from

Still I cant help but think a wharram {say a Tiki46 or a Spirit of Gaia at 62ft go to Wharram's page (http://www.wharram.com) and have a gander) would be ideal given your pre-requisites above

Also try sending Nova Scotia NA Michael Mason (forumite mmd) an email with what you want and get his feedback

Shane

[ 04-29-2004, 04:14 AM: Message edited by: Wild Dingo ]

[Jack C]

Given the design brief, it sounds like Phil Bolger's Moccasin to me. Check it out in his book 30-Odd Boats.

Jack

[paladin]

Well.........somewhat disagree.......but... every cat to his own kick.....
I circumnavigated in a 31 foot tri.......I would have preferred the 34 but it did not exist at the time.....
GO SMALLER....you can pretty much always rent a boat to fly fish from...it's cheaper and easier to do rather than lug a lotta boat around on top of the other boat....the bigger your main machine the more expensive and DIFFICULT it will be for maintenance and to FIND facilities....
Draft......6 feetz is more better draft....the extra foot is worth it.....a 36 foot or 40 foot Bristol channel cutter type may be a much better choice.....if you wanna go lighter and smaller for just a couple I am presently working with Dudley Dix on a 32 foot version of the Cape Henry as a more economical way to run around the world..

[Paul Pless]

To All,

Thankyou, these are just exactly the kind of responses that are mind opening and expanding to me. I often get bogged down in too narrow a focus when working towards something.

Regarding North American Fishing vs the World: I am no world class fly fisherman either. Your proposal of fishing venues in N.A. includes almost all the waters that I want to fish, and other than Costa Rica, Belize, and Labrador I have already fished most of those regions you mentioned. Some individuals could spend a lifetime in any one of them. I really have little interest in sailing to Europe, I have spent a great deal of time during my college years as well as continue to travel throughout Europe on business and pleasure. My other interests beyond fishing, are: history, geography, ecology, and anthropology. I would dearly like to see both sides of the Pacific.

Truly I have little interest in true blue water sailing other than to the end that it gets me somewhere. The type of boats that I currently fish out of tend to be flats boats, bass boats, and jet drive jonboats. I would lean torwards a jonboat for my future dream trip. The fishing skiff is the complicating factor in this boat design. I have entertained the idea of a nesting typr boat. Actually it is very appealing to me and will probably be the next idea that I pursue - even unto designing and building one this year.

Regarding multihull boats: I have no practical experience on cruising multis. I have spent a fair amount of time on some small Hobie 'type' cats and sailed on some big day charter cats in the Bahamas. The high latitude bias may be a nonissue. What is an issue, and this is just me, is that I like (love) traditionally designed boats, and if I am going to spend thousands of dollars on and a great deal of time aboard something it needs to be aesthetically appealling to me.

At this point, it is my belief, that cost of construction more closely related to displacement than length. Thus the reason for exploring the sharpie and dory types. I personally love the pilot boat type cutters (though I would probly rather rig a cutter - yawl). The problem with most of these designs is their deep draft. A designer that I am going to try to become more familiar with is F. Spalding Dunbar. He specialized in dual centerboard cruising boats of fairly traditional lines.

Moccasin, is a favorite of mine, it shows that Bolger doesn't just do boxes. I believe Moccasin has crossed the Atlantic at least twice and she is beachable.

So there you have it.

Please continue to bounce ideas off of me, it keeps me from developing tunnel vision. I must say that my first experience dealing with naval architects was a bit discouraging.

Thanks,

Paul

[Bruce Hooke]

I do not have any real blue-water experience, so my input may not be worth much, but if I were truly thinking of serious high-latitude sailing I would not be comfortable with a shoal draft boat (except MAYBE a multihull, but even there I'd have my doubts for sailing near places like Cape Horn). Take a look at C.A. Marchaj's book Seaworthyness for a strong argument in favor of draft and weight for heavy weather sailing.

I do like exploring shallow water. My experience has been that in many cases the ease with which the boat can recover from a grounding makes more difference in the waters you go into than the actual draft. A small, light boat with a 4' draft can comfortably be taken into areas where there is only 5 or 6' of water (in sheltered waters of course), especially if the boat has a short keel and an outboard motor that can be turned 90 degrees to spin the boat on it's keel. A multi-ton vessel on the other hand can be so hard to get off of a grounding that even if it has a 2' draft you won't want to venture into waters that are much under 6' anyway. Of course the exact depth limits vary depending on how irregular the bottom is and how hard the shallow spots are. In areas with hard and irregular bottoms (e.g. Maine) shallow draft does not matter as much as areas where the bottom is soft and so smooth that 1' under your keel is plenty.

For fishing I would take a very close look at whether a high-end inflatable would do what you are looking for -- you can get fairly large ones with hard panels for the bottom and many other features that make them work pretty similarly to hard boats. Otherwise you are talking about a lot of boat to make it possible to lug around your fishing boat. I do not thinking towing will be a viable solution unless you treat the towed boat as pretty much expendable. The cover on it would need to be hard enough to take being rolled upside down or having a couple of tons of breaking wave dumped on top of it and even then there might well be storm conditions under which the towed boat might endanger the mother ship and need to be cut loose.

[DavesFlatsBoat]

How about Atkin's Sunnie: http://www.boat-links.com/Atkinco/Sail/Sunnie.html if you're looking for a 3-4 foot draft.

http://www.boat-links.com/Atkinco/Sail/images/Sunnie-1.gif

For your aux craft - look at the GV11 - http://www.boatplans-online.com/proddetail.php?prod=GV11

http://www.bateau2.com/gallery/GV11/photos/GV11_on_trailer2.jpg

[Dave K]

For my $.02 worth, I'd check out Tom Colvin designs. Many of his designs are shoal draft, and many are capable of, and have proven themselves in, ocean voyages. His 34' "Saugeen Witch" or 36 ft. "Radian" designs come first to mind, but there are larger ones also. And most of his designs suffer from one "terminal" disease that you need to be aware of - they are "drop dead pretty."

[mmd]

If a full custom design is your choice, I'd be most happy to enter discussions with you on the topic. E-mail me if you'd like to chat about it. If, however, you are interested in an already built boat, check out the Avon Spirit, currently for sale for about $225,000 USD. She fits your specs re: draft & capability, and is tres salty. Good boat porn at the least:

http://newimages.yachtworld.com/1/1/2/9/5/1129592_1_thumb.jpg

http://www.outdoorns.com/launchin.htm

http://www.celticww.ns.ca/snyders/avon.htm

http://www.oceanyachtsales.com/core/listing/pl_boat_detail.jsp?&units=Feet&checked_boats=1129592&slim=broker&&host url=oc (http://www.oceanyachtsales.com/core/listing/pl_boat_detail.jsp?&units=Feet&checked_boats=1129592&slim=broker&&hostu rl=oc) eanyachtsales&&ywo=oceanyachtsales&

[ 04-29-2004, 02:23 PM: Message edited by: mmd ]

[boatlover]

mmd:

First: Good looking schooner! Heavily sparred and the rigging looks appropriately robust.

Second: I followed the second URL in your post.

Q: What does this mean:

Sail Area: 121 pounds of sq. ft. ? ?

Ed R

[mmd]

Ed, I haven't a clue what was trying to be said there. A rough guess is that whomever put the info into the Snyder's Shipyard website didn't understand the "shorthand" that NA's use and misconstrued "Sail Area - 121#". If this is true, then 121# means 121 sq. metres (Lengkeek Vessel Engineering uses all metric units unless specifically aske to do otherwise), or 1302 sq. ft. This sounds like a reasonable sail area for the vessel.

I have copies of the linesplan and construction plan of the original 1926 vessel "FBG", but not the sail plan. As Marius Lengkeek is listed as the designer, I presume someone (probably Rob Crutcher) in his office did the sailplan, but I don't know who. (I worked for Marius for a couple of years, but this vessel was finished before I joined the firm.) Not a racer in anything other than a hurricane, she is a beamy, shallow coaster originally designed to carry coastal freight along the Nova Scotian, New Brunswick, and possible Maine coasts. She is currently lying at Snyder's wharf, where she over-wintered. I believe that she is being sold because the owners - Avon Spirit Shipyard & Museum - wish to use the money to fund their next project. The vessel is built well, used sparingly and easily, and maintained properly. It should be a good boat for someone.

[ 04-29-2004, 08:43 PM: Message edited by: mmd ]

[rbgarr]

There are plans for a nesting design similar to the yellow garvey type shown above. It's called the Abaco 11 and the plans were published and sold by Richard Tate in 2001 AFAIK. A Google search might turn him up.

[Venchka]

Paul,

You could do a lot worse than ELLY...

http://www.banner-tribune.com/ftos/elly/mvc-002f.jpg


ELLY (http://media5.hypernet.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=001597)

or SPARK...

http://www.qei.co.uk/getimage.aspx.ID-11987.gif

SPARK (http://www.qei.co.uk/spark.html)

The draft is right on either one, 4' or less. There appears to be enough room on deck for a fishing boat of sorts.

Think you could fish out of this...

http://www.portlandpudgy.com/gallery%20stern%20view%20wake%20cropped.jpg

Portland Pudgy (http://www.portlandpudgy.com/index.htm)

Enjoy!

[Paul Pless]

Venchka,

The WoodenBoat issues featuring Elly are among the most worn out issues in my collection! I love that damn boat! Doesn't everybody.

One of my biggest problems is there are way to many pretty boats out there. I am especially smittem by double enders. Spidsgatter types really do it for me. Oh, I forgot to mention how lapstrake boats stir me. Have I ever mentioned how jealous I am of your Elizabeth Grace.

I think for now I am going to work with my brother on the design and construction of the fishing skiff. There is no better alloy welder in the world than my brother. He does nuclear power plant refits. We're thinking a nesting skiff in two sections, one 7 foot section and one 6 foot section; with a 42" flat bottom. The more compact that i can get the ondeck package for the skiff to be, the better.

If i relax the shallow draft portion of my criteria, it would open up a wide range of possiblities for me. Perhaps, making my decision easier. Perhaps?

Paul

ps Venchka, I never heard back from you regarding your plans. Just wondering what a fellow southern woodenboat lover is thinking?

[Venchka]

Paul,

PM sent. Sorry for the delay. Stuff happens. :D

[Don Chapin]

Paul, I too hope to circumnavigate one day and so read everything I can get my hands on. Unfortunately more than not the published materials are sensationalized stories (although maybe true) of disasters and near disasters at sea. Reading all that though brings up many thoughts concerning survivability in a knock-down/roll-over. Why not build the cabin trunk and fishing skiff so that the skiff "Nests" over the cabin top? generally the skiff would be towed but in preparations for crossings the thwarts could be removed and the skiff secured over the majority of the cabin trunk. Just a way off the deep-end thought.

[mmd]

Paul, I have sent several e-mails to you with no reply. Could I have the wrong address? Please contact me.

[Paul Pless]

Don,

I too have thought of this approach to stowage. I was thinking more along the lines of storing the tender upside down, protectively over a skylight.

Paul

[John B]

Lark's tender has a lexan( or similar) patch in the bottom so that when it's over the skylight( lark is flush decked)light still can get below.

[garland reese]

Benford's series of Dory designs would seem to fit your requirements. They go as large as 37 feet, and have a shallow draft option (though the normal draft is less than five feet). Several have been built, lived on and sailed all over....
There are prettier designs out there though :D

I'd love to have a good sized schooner someday :rolleyes:

[John B]

me too.

[Tom Robb]

The Northwest School of Wooden Boatbuilding is building a copy of Elly, but I think it may be a bespoke boat rather than a spec boat. It would surprise me not at all if they were willing to do another. Ray Spec, the teacher in charge of the construction said he plans to do an article for WB on her.
It couldn't hurt to ask.

[Charles Burgess]

I would offer a schooner rigged pinky of sufficient size, as it would seem to fit your design statement. The pinky hullform dates back several centuries and was used extensively in the American Colonies, and would seem to be the round bottomed predecessor to the flat bottomed dory, both being double enders.

The pinky, although shoal-draft (4ft or so for one that is 35 to 50 ft LOA), is very seaworthy in blue water as it was used to sail from the Caribbean to the New England colonies in 1650AD.

Being an avid flyfisherman myself, I am aware of what is looked for in such a boat...a special skiff has been recently developed for use in NW Florida's coastal fly fishing that is both shallow drafted enough to go up nearly any river and stable enough to use along the coast from its bow. A skiff is much more seaworthy than a jonboat, while having similar characteristics in shallow draft.

[ 05-19-2004, 12:49 AM: Message edited by: cburgess ]

[Venchka]

Bump

[Paul Pless]

Thanks

I've spent too much time in the bilge alas all my recent post are political. Is there anyway you could bump the St Pierre dory thread and the other dory thread.

Thanks again,

Paul

[John E Hardiman]

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