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View Full Version : Is it ever wrong to hit a child?



ishmael
04-06-2011, 01:21 AM
I'm not talking beating them, I saw that when I was a child.

Where does a spank on the butt figure in?

The only rule I have with my animals is that I never hit them. This cat is hand shy because she has been hit before me. She may get over it, but I'm no counting on it.

I chastise her, with loud vocals, but I couldn't hit her.

She worries about hitting, and flinches, but I always reasure her with my vocals.

The Bigfella
04-06-2011, 01:31 AM
Oh look, another thread that will go badly.

Waddie
04-06-2011, 02:23 AM
I think it depends on the kid. Some are so tender just raising your voice to them will get them crying, while at the other end of the spectrum some are so hardheaded talking doesn't get through to them.
I would say if you do spank it should only be on the rear-end with your open hand, and only for the most serious offenses, and only when you've tried everything else.
If you spank for every little thing, they will get used to it and then even spanking won't be effective. I would also say to never spank a child when you're angry.
I also think discipline of any kind shouldn't be carried out in front of their friends.
At the most, spanking is only effective until they get to be about 7 or 8 yrs old. Spanking doesn't work very well with older kids (except in my case--see below)..

Having said that, the last spanking I got was at age 14. I was one of the hard-headed ones. Me and a couple of friends had gathered a bushel of pot down by the railroad tracks and were trying to dry it out in my mother's clothes dryer. She smelled it from upstairs and when my father got home he put welts all over my backside with a willow branch. That was the end of my drug trafficking career. Took all the fun out of using drugs, too !! :)

Remember this--the only real reason we can spank kids is that they are smaller than us........:)

regards,
Waddie

BarnacleGrim
04-06-2011, 03:15 AM
Is it ever wrong to hit a child?

Strange question. I can think of scores of situations where it is wrong to hit a child, just off the top of my head.

stevebaby
04-06-2011, 03:27 AM
I smacked my daughter on the backside once,when she was 5 years old. We were having an argument about what size raincoat I should buy her,and she took a swing at me! :D She missed though,but still...
I felt so guilty about whacking her that I bought us both an ice cream,sat her down outside the shops,and explained some stuff to her. Then I bought the raincoat that I'd originally chosen and she was perfectly happy.
Never whacked her or my son ever again. My disapproval was sufficient punishment for any minor transgressions of the household rules.
They have both turned out to be polite respectful and caring kids who work hard at school and have never given their teachers or sports coaches any concern at all.

ishmael
04-06-2011, 04:03 AM
A few tales.

I knew gals when I was growing up who were abused. Physically beaten because of imagined transgretions, black and blue across their backs and lower legs.

Their parents, their father, in a better age would have been reported for child abuse. I don't care what a child does, you don't whip them.

That isn't what I'm talking about. A few smacks with an open hand on the butt, with clear sanction, is different.

AussieBarney
04-06-2011, 04:05 AM
I ended up with nine broken bones from a drunken, savage and out of control father before I was twelve years old. When my son was seven he defied me over something that was so small I can't remember the details. So I put him over my lap and gave him one, I kid you not, one smack on his bare bottom. I spent the next three hours curled in a ball, so traumatised that my wife could not get a response from me. I never raised my hand to my boys again.
I believe that you can spank in certain circumstances and it works. It's got to be reserved for the worst transgressions of the most important rules, the ones concerning safety. The state has no right to interfere in normal disipline in the family. Physical abuse of a child deserves the harshest punishment available to the court.

Meli
04-06-2011, 04:39 AM
1. there is a difference between a cat and a child.
2. Most of us have lost it at some time and given the kids a smack on the backside.
IMHO this is OK, dont feel guilty, the little horrors can drive you insane.
Cats on the other hand, don't learn from a quick flick, so pick them up and chuck them outside till you've cooled off.

3. Never ever, ever , shake or hit a small child.
put them in their room and close the door until you have calmed down.
4. slightly older kids, say 4-8, well a controled slap on the leg will make you feel rotten 10 mins later, but the kid will survive it.
5 older kids, try putting them over your knee, exhausting., if you can manage a mild smack with their flailing and yelling, good luck to you. you'll still feel like an Arsehole 10 mins later.
6. after say twelve, you are on the loosing side, unless you really lay into them, then, the appropriate department may haul you off with my best wishes.

It's about being a grown up, der
We all lose it some times (like maybe once a year). But... we shouldn't.

Premeditated beatings or cannings of children is vile. it's just saying, I will hurt you because I can.
Kids only learn one lesson from such behavior, violence is an OK tool to use when you cant use your head.

I have smacked my kids very occaisionally, no more that a slap on the bum,
Like stevebaby, my kids are great, reasonably self controled and mature. No grief to their teachers and a delight to other adults.
But dont ask me about pacively doing their homejobs and homework

McMike
04-06-2011, 05:17 AM
I think it depends on the kid. Some are so tender just raising your voice to them will get them crying, while at the other end of the spectrum some are so hardheaded talking doesn't get through to them.
I would say if you do spank it should only be on the rear-end with your open hand, and only for the most serious offenses, and only when you've tried everything else.
If you spank for every little thing, they will get used to it and then even spanking won't be effective. I would also say to never spank a child when you're angry.
I also think discipline of any kind shouldn't be carried out in front of their friends.
At the most, spanking is only effective until they get to be about 7 or 8 yrs old. Spanking doesn't work very well with older kids (except in my case--see below)..

Having said that, the last spanking I got was at age 14. I was one of the hard-headed ones. Me and a couple of friends had gathered a bushel of pot down by the railroad tracks and were trying to dry it out in my mother's clothes dryer. She smelled it from upstairs and when my father got home he put welts all over my backside with a willow branch. That was the end of my drug trafficking career. Took all the fun out of using drugs, too !! :)

Remember this--the only real reason we can spank kids is that they are smaller than us........:)

regards,
Waddie

Well said all around. I say raise a child as the adult they will become not the child they are. Are you gonna spanking your coworker or subordinate at work? If you are, don't answer that.:d

Chris Coose
04-06-2011, 05:18 AM
koo-koo.
Is it ever right to hit a child? No. Kids are smaller than you and parenting requires a person to be creative in all areas, including anger.

Now Ish, for you. Do you consider your cat your child?

Will the answers to this question help you to be a better parent to your cat?

botebum
04-06-2011, 05:51 AM
I have perfected "The Look". That usually suffices.
On one occasion Scooter got a swat on the butt for being defiant. She gets swatted harder when we're goofing around. It's the message, not the pain, so pain isn't necessary. That was quite a while ago and I haven't had to resort to it since. She's quite bright so a little corrective conversation after "The Look" works well.

Doug

PeterSibley
04-06-2011, 06:08 AM
I ended up with nine broken bones from a drunken, savage and out of control father before I was twelve years old. When my son was seven he defied me over something that was so small I can't remember the details. So I put him over my lap and gave him one, I kid you not, one smack on his bare bottom. I spent the next three hours curled in a ball, so traumatised that my wife could not get a response from me. I never raised my hand to my boys again.
I believe that you can spank in certain circumstances and it works. It's got to be reserved for the worst transgressions of the most important rules, the ones concerning safety. The state has no right to interfere in normal disipline in the family. Physical abuse of a child deserves the harshest punishment available to the court.

Barney ,there seem to be two ways for a kid that was abused by his parents to go .Repeat the same on their children or do what you did .Well done mate .

StevenBauer
04-06-2011, 06:42 AM
"Violence is the last refuge if the incompetent".
I agree with Chris, Jack's question is bizarre. Is it ever wrong? Of course. Is it ever right? No.



Steven

ishmael
04-06-2011, 06:59 AM
I posed the question as I did to be provocative. It's a way to get the attention here.

I've made my position clear. Anything beyond warming up a fanny with a few smacks with an open hand is way wrong, yet I don't think a judicious spanking for serious offenses is wrong.

The one time I was spanked I was maybe six. Here's what I did: If you open up a paper clip you have two missiles, which can be shot with a rubber band. I did that, to a family friend, who was sitting in the living room talking with my parents. I don't know why, no reason except that I could. I caught a little hell for the hijinx, and rightly so. I could have put that man's eye out.

My father, not a brutal man one bit, gave me a spanking and talked to me about how wrong I was, one enforcing the other. The spanking impressed the words.

I wrote what I did because spanking has become tantamount to abuse, and it isn't. I'm here to testify that it does work. It gave me a thing or two to think about.

PeterSibley
04-06-2011, 07:03 AM
I'm going to assume that Jack meant , ''Is it ever right to hit a child?''

As Steven mentioned , the original is truly bizarre ....I'm hoping it was a typo .

PeterSibley
04-06-2011, 07:04 AM
A cross post , just provocative , not confused ?

ishmael
04-06-2011, 07:22 AM
So, Peter, spanking is wrong.

David W Pratt
04-06-2011, 07:38 AM
I never hit either of ours. When our daughter was about 3, 4 we went sailing with some friends, the father wanted their boy to do or stop something and counted to three, at three he whacked the kid. We started counting with our daughter, but never hit her. Interestingly, her brother, five years younger also responded to the counting even though he had not seen the original whack on the other kid.

TomF
04-06-2011, 07:44 AM
"Spare the rod and spoil the child" is utter BS. As much a relic of the past as the "rule of thumb" (the limitation on how thick the rod for beating wife/kids should be).

I've never spanked our kids - yet somehow they've not turned into foulmouthed, slack-willed, couch-dwelling louts. And if I wanted to start spanking them now, it's rather too late ... the boys both rank me by a fair bit in karate, and my daughter's got far to ingenious a mind to court her revenge.

Violence is an indicator of failure ... and spanking is violence. While failures happen, they shouldn't be celebrated or justified.

Dutch
04-06-2011, 07:45 AM
Spanking a kid wrong? Nope - the sissyish pc crowd seems to think so though - they think if we mamby pamby the little ones we are going to all wake up some day in lala land where everyone really does get along.

fat chance

hell I went to public schools that still had coporal punishment with a paddle - my bet is if you look at the mental makeup of the kids I went to school with - theyd be better emotionally adjusted to take on life than most of the brats growing up spoiled and coddled by soft permissable parenting these days.

TomF
04-06-2011, 07:56 AM
Spanking a kid wrong? Nope - the sissyish pc crowd seems to think so though - they think if we mamby pamby the little ones we are going to all wake up some day in lala land where everyone really does get along.

fat chance

hell I went to public schools that still had coporal punishment with a paddle - my bet is if you look at the mental makeup of the kids I went to school with - theyd be better emotionally adjusted to take on life than most of the brats growing up spoiled and coddled by soft permissable parenting these days.Good morning to you too, Dutch. Nice flash you've added to the troll.

Are there only those two options? Raising well-adjusted kids via spanking, and raising spoiled and coddled brats via soft permissable parenting?

Or perhaps are there examples of the contrary?

LeeG
04-06-2011, 07:57 AM
I have perfected "The Look". That usually suffices.

Doug

I've tried The Look on the cats, they just look back and lick their butt.

Canoez
04-06-2011, 08:01 AM
"Violence is the last refuge if the incompetent".
I agree with Chris, Jack's question is bizarre. Is it ever wrong? Of course. Is it ever right? No.



Steven

+1 Just bizzare, indeed. :pmad:

LeeG
04-06-2011, 08:01 AM
I posed the question as I did to be provocative. It's a way to get the attention here.

I've made my position clear. Anything beyond warming up a fanny with a few smacks with an open hand is way wrong, yet I don't think a judicious spanking for serious offenses is wrong.



or you can pull them by their little wrists, ear lobes and hair, judiciously of course. Otherwise how will one know who has the power?

ishmael
04-06-2011, 08:05 AM
Dutch,

Where I grew up, a paddling in the vice-principle's office was still part of the picture if you were uncontrolled. Never went there myself, but I don't think that threat was such a terrible thing. The kids who were disruptive gained a new respect for the teacher.

Is it ideal? No, I don't think so. Yet a little corporal punishment when you are out of line never really hurt anyone. When you are trying to learn calculus, or history, a few disruptive kids can make the hour worthless.

S.V. Airlie
04-06-2011, 08:15 AM
Spanking? I pulled a good one, deserved some form of punishment. Got it..Worst part was having to pick and cut my own switch..It took three cuttings to find one that was sufficient ( flexible enough) at which time I did not even need the spanking, which in the end, I didn't get, other than a tap on the bum...I was already a basket case.

TomF
04-06-2011, 08:20 AM
How do you feel about corporal punishment of adults, in places like Singapore or Malaysia where caning is still a common punishment?

If it's good for adults, great. If it's not good for adults, why is it good for kids ... and on what basis do you sort out when to stop?

genglandoh
04-06-2011, 08:25 AM
When my kids were little my brother bought me the book "Baby Taming"
Funny book but it did have some good advice.

I never put them in a cage but I did make them sleep in a pillow fort.

http://www.amazon.com/Baby-Taming-Peter-Mayle/dp/0517551985

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61z5vt4SqFL._SL500_AA300_.jpg

ishmael
04-06-2011, 08:30 AM
Tom,

Adults when they are out of line go to jail.

S.V. Airlie
04-06-2011, 08:31 AM
Did he adults learnfrom their experience? Isn't it better than having their hands chopped off for say stealing?

Spanking was rarely inflicted as a punishment for any of my siblings. Only once for me and I was around 10. No other punishment was ever received after my one bout. It was a learning experience; even that one time, made an impression on me and I told myself, never again. What age? By the time you are 11 or 12, no punishment will work. In essence, growing up was a process where the parents instilled in the kids the concept of right and wrong through their actions. Do what we do, not as we say we do concept.

SMARTINSEN
04-06-2011, 08:47 AM
Tom,

Adults when they are out of line go to jail.

You evaded Tom's question. Is corporeal punishment o.k. for adults? How about stoning? Cattle prod? Lashing on the foredeck? Smack that infant around because he will not stop crying?

And the last question that he asked is the most important, where do you draw the line?

============

To answer you original question, yes, it is always wrong to hit a child.

genglandoh
04-06-2011, 09:01 AM
I have a little different take of punishment them most.

When the child or adult is a first time offender, I would punish them.
The offence would be small so the punishment would be small but they will learn the actions have consequences.

Some parents and courts let first time offenders off the hook and they learn they can get away with it, creating a bigger problem in the future.

htom
04-06-2011, 09:02 AM
Hitting is bad. Minor tactile stimulation of the buttocks or hand, administered with an open hand, may be appropriate under some circumstances.

Bruce Taylor
04-06-2011, 09:16 AM
I can't imagine having so little influence over my kids that I would feel a need to strike them.

S.V. Airlie
04-06-2011, 09:24 AM
Bruce this is usually the case but there are times when even kids push the buttons.
I was with my family on Hurricane Is;and before it became a part of Outward Bound. My siblings decided not to go swimming and instead went climbing up to the top of the quarry. I was swimming..the only one in the water. My father told me specifically not to swim across the quarry. I disobeyed him being ten and then when I reached the other side,I bowed to my parents. Big mistake...That resulted in the occurrence mentioned above; a mild spanking following having to cut a switch...I never forgo this...as my "prank" was dangerous and being 10, I was not thinking.

ishmael
04-06-2011, 09:24 AM
Oh com'on Bruce. If you mean that, you have a limited imagination, and I know that's not true.

When I almost shot that man's eye out, I needed something a little more than a stern reprimand.

I dunno, but I'll tell you one thing, I never shot a paper clip at another person.

hokiefan
04-06-2011, 09:28 AM
My Dad always said the Lord built a place for spankings. He also said that hitting a kid anywhere else or beyond reasonable on the bum was abuse and far beyond sinful. He and/or my Mom would spank us occasionally. The offense that always got a spanking was lying.

I have always basically agreed with him. Having said that, our kids never got spanked. It honestly never seemed necessary. So far they are growing into respectful, decent young people. We'll take a little credit, but we've been lucky as well.

Cheers,

Bobby

Chris Coose
04-06-2011, 09:32 AM
So far we see, without exception, Conservatives hit their children, Liberals do not.

S.V. Airlie
04-06-2011, 09:35 AM
I was never hit as the term implies.. Yes, I was spanked. I see a difference. I would never hit a child.

genglandoh
04-06-2011, 09:35 AM
So far we see, without exception, Conservatives hit their children, Liberals do not.

Is that why all the Liberals kids grow up spoiled and expecting others to pay the bills..:)

Sorry I just could not help myself.

TomF
04-06-2011, 09:37 AM
Tom,

Adults when they are out of line go to jail.Here, sure. But in Singapore, some are caned instead.

Andrew Craig-Bennett
04-06-2011, 09:38 AM
I think it is better to avoid it. However, let's be quite clear that people can be cruel in many ways, including just talking to a child.

Bruce Taylor
04-06-2011, 09:38 AM
Oh com'on Bruce. If you mean that, you have a limited imagination, and I know that's not true.

It's precisely because I don't have a limited imagination that I've never had to lay a hand on my children. ;)

S.V. Airlie
04-06-2011, 09:40 AM
Has anyone eaten at a restaurant with a bunch of screaming children at the next booth and all you hear are the parents (begging) the kids to be quiet? No fun for us, no control, no expectations from the kids that they might be in trouble for causing a major disturbance.

hokiefan
04-06-2011, 09:46 AM
Has anyone eaten at a restaurant with a bunch of screaming children at the next booth and all you hear are the parents (begging) the kids to be quiet? No fun for us, no control, no expectations from the kids that they might be in trouble for causing a major disturbance.

My daughter and I have walked out into the parking lot to "discuss things" when she got that way as a 2-3 year old. There were consequences for behavior, but for her spanking didn't become one of them.

And yes its quite annoying when the parents just sit there and say "hush Billy". Or even worse, yell it at the kid. Yeah, that really works...

Cheers,

Bobby

Chris Coose
04-06-2011, 09:46 AM
Has anyone eaten at a restaurant with a bunch of screaming children at the next booth ........

Liberals don't take their brie and whine in booths

StevenBauer
04-06-2011, 09:47 AM
As I said. "Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent". I'm sure many here that only know you through what you post, Jack, are glad that you don't have kids.



Steven

Bruce Taylor
04-06-2011, 09:48 AM
Has anyone eaten at a restaurant with a bunch of screaming children at the next booth and all you hear are the parents (begging) the kids to be quiet?

If the parents are begging, they've already lost. After begging, comes desperation, which leads to hitting. ;)

Chris Coose
04-06-2011, 09:53 AM
"Honey, This is for your own good."
Wack!!! Wack!!!!
Tears.
"You know I love you."

S.V. Airlie
04-06-2011, 09:56 AM
So, Bruce I agree. The question is how and when did the need to beg start? Hitting is not the answer and as I have said, I see a big difference between hitting and spanking. Again, I have also stated that even spanking was a last resort in my family. It was not something my parents used indiscriminately as punishment.

TomF
04-06-2011, 09:59 AM
Is that why all the Liberals kids grow up spoiled and expecting others to pay the bills..:)

Sorry I just could not help myself.My 19 year old daughter loaned a friend $1,500 to pay for a damage deposit and 1st month's rent - mostly so he could get out of his neglectful and loveless family home. A home which, incidentally, relied heavily on corporal punishment all through his childhood.

Fast-forward a few months, and Kyle's quit his job - stopping even his lackluster and sporadic repayments. He didn't know how to manage conflict with a co-worker, and things started to turn violent, doncha know. Now he's leaving town.

Of course, my daughter never expected Kyle to repay her. She saw it from the start as a pay-it-forward good deed - he really needed to get out of his family home. She's irritated with him - not because he's avoiding the debt, but because he's embarassed enough by his behaviour to be curtailing the friendship. She sees herself (fairly accurately) as one of the few positive influences in his life these days, and worries what will happen when he's got none such.

Sorry ... you were saying something amusing about corporal punishment helping to develop personal responsibility?

Chris Coose
04-06-2011, 10:01 AM
Again, I have also stated that even spanking was a last resort in my family.
the dubbya stated invasion and occupation of Iraq was a last resort for the US.
That was a lie too.

Liberal parents have a bunch of creative interventions between getting pissed off at their little children and striking them.

Bruce Taylor
04-06-2011, 10:07 AM
So, Bruce I agree. The question is how and when did the need to beg start?

Dunno. There was a Mom who was notorious, in our Montreal neighbourhood, for pleading with her kids while they ran wild. You could hear her exasperated whine from a block away. :D Those kids are young adults, now, both doing well at university, and as polite & respectful as you could wish.

Somehow, they turned out OK. If they'd been spanked, I'll bet they would still have turned out OK (most people of my generation were spanked, and most of us turned out OK, right?). Maybe, there's more than one way to raise a civilized person. ;)

S.V. Airlie
04-06-2011, 10:11 AM
Overall.. It is do what I say, not what I do..is the key. If a parent does not do what he should do, kids figure it out real soon. If your parents have values, a knowledge of right and wrong, the kids will get it.

Waddie
04-06-2011, 10:22 AM
OK, we've pretty much established that children shouldn't be spanked, much.

How about an adult who's been really, really bad? Don't they deserve a good spanking?? :) :)

regards,
Waddie

Canoeyawl
04-06-2011, 10:25 AM
Overall.. It is do what I say, not what I do..is the key. If a parent does not do what he should do, kids figure it out real soon. If your parents have values, a knowledge of right and wrong, the kids will get it.

Exactly - Now who spanks the parents?

Bruce Taylor
04-06-2011, 10:25 AM
Don't they deserve a good spanking?? :) :)


Some of 'em might even enjoy it.

I remember Lynn Messinger complaining that his SWMBO was angry with him and was refusing to spank him until he mended his ways. :D

S.V. Airlie
04-06-2011, 10:26 AM
Too late...Their character has already been determined developed in childhood.

htom
04-06-2011, 11:24 AM
Years ago, I was left to babysit my brother's children for an afternoon. Andrew, the oldest and considered to be a "difficult child", then four, came into the kitchen and asked "Do you believe in spanking, Uncle Tom?"

"Why do you want to know, Andrew? Have you done something deserving a spanking?"

"No. I think I'm going to behave."

And so the Terror of 106th Street was tamed. Never had a problem with him, or his sisters.

TomF
04-06-2011, 12:52 PM
The magazine called the Law department at Harvard, and got their expert on English Common Law to do a little research. He could find no reference to any such law and, further, established that it has NEVER been legal under English Common Law to beat one's wife with a rod of ANY size.

Just thought you'd like to know!I'm very glad to know - thanks JT. :)

Bobby of Tulsa
04-06-2011, 03:56 PM
Years ago, I was left to babysit my brother's children for an afternoon. Andrew, the oldest and considered to be a "difficult child", then four, came into the kitchen and asked "Do you believe in spanking, Uncle Tom?"

"Why do you want to know, Andrew? Have you done something deserving a spanking?"

"No. I think I'm going to behave."

And so the Terror of 106th Street was tamed. Never had a problem with him, or his sisters.

Uncles have this thing going on.:)

McMike
04-06-2011, 04:10 PM
Spanking a kid wrong? Nope - the sissyish pc crowd seems to think so though - they think if we mamby pamby the little ones we are going to all wake up some day in lala land where everyone really does get along.

fat chance

hell I went to public schools that still had coporal punishment with a paddle - my bet is if you look at the mental makeup of the kids I went to school with - theyd be better emotionally adjusted to take on life than most of the brats growing up spoiled and coddled by soft permissable parenting these days.

Hmm, I've never laid a hand on my two boys, now 12 and 15 years old, and both of them are forever praised by their coaches and teachers for being polite and generally above the curve for their age behaviorally. Both boys get B's and above in school, my oldest gets almost straight A's in AP courses and my youngest is consistently picked as team captain in baseball, he was the 4th picked in the whole league this year. It seems Dutch, again, you have no idea what you're talking about.

McMike
04-06-2011, 04:16 PM
My 19 year old daughter loaned a friend $1,500 to pay for a damage deposit and 1st month's rent - mostly so he could get out of his neglectful and loveless family home. A home which, incidentally, relied heavily on corporal punishment all through his childhood.

Fast-forward a few months, and Kyle's quit his job - stopping even his lackluster and sporadic repayments. He didn't know how to manage conflict with a co-worker, and things started to turn violent, doncha know. Now he's leaving town.

Of course, my daughter never expected Kyle to repay her. She saw it from the start as a pay-it-forward good deed - he really needed to get out of his family home. She's irritated with him - not because he's avoiding the debt, but because he's embarassed enough by his behaviour to be curtailing the friendship. She sees herself (fairly accurately) as one of the few positive influences in his life these days, and worries what will happen when he's got none such.

Sorry ... you were saying something amusing about corporal punishment helping to develop personal responsibility?

Good for your Daughter Tom!!!!!!!! The world would do better with more people like her.

Bobby of Tulsa
04-06-2011, 04:24 PM
I think every child is different. My youngest you could just look at and thats all that was needed. The older one, well you better be in good shape and be ready to repair walls and windows or leave them to do their thing. Time outs only give time to think of more ways to win.

Peter Malcolm Jardine
04-06-2011, 05:08 PM
I wrote what I did because spanking has become tantamount to abuse, and it isn't. I'm here to testify that it does work. It gave me a thing or two to think about.

So you're saying that spanking was helpful in forming the man you are today....

htom
04-06-2011, 05:51 PM
I'm told by Mom and Dad that I was spanked, but I don't remember it. I remember spanking Ross and Ralph, who were ten years younger than I was, when they were two or three and I was baby sitting them; neither they nor Scott nor Deb (my other siblings) remember it. Maybe that's the line: if the child doesn't remember it after a month, it was OK?

delecta
04-06-2011, 06:05 PM
This doesn't apply to most of you because you've already screwed up your children but. If you haven't, the little brats need a swat from time to time.

I saw on the news today that a 2nd grader was pepper sprayed, tell me that little pita didn't need a swat on the a$$.

Anyway, go on raising your children the modern way. Time will tell but I doubt they will grade the little brats on a curve.

Peter Malcolm Jardine
04-06-2011, 07:07 PM
Umm sorry, no. Nancy's kids are both accomplished University graduates, so is my daughter

Tom Montgomery
04-06-2011, 07:36 PM
"I'll give you something to cry about!"

Tom Montgomery
04-06-2011, 07:43 PM
Opinions about child rearing practice by Jack Heinlen.

Did you spank your children, Jack? How have they turned out?

This is bizarre.

perldog007
04-06-2011, 07:46 PM
I'm not talking beating them, I saw that when I was a child.

Where does a spank on the butt figure in?....



There was a cabbie in Atlantic City who was a rowdy sort with the skills to back it up. One day a customer gets in his cab and the conversation starts normal "Do you have any kids"? "Yes".

"Do you ever spank them?". Weird says the driver but he's working for a tip and fare. "Sometimes", he replies. The customer gasps audibly.

"Do you want me to spank you (expletive)?". Inquires the cabbie. "Yes" comes the breathless reply.

"If you want me to spank you it's going to cost you!" says the driver. Dr. Feelgood ( the man's CB handle ) describes the negotiation and a sum of one hundred dollars is agreed on.

He takes the guy out behind Harrah's Marina and takes his belt off. Dr. Feelgood maintains that the customer wanted to be across his knee but the good Dr. had him assume the position over the trunk of the car. Dr. Feelgood further allowed that he was a bit concerned as he thought that by the fourth strike "I was getting into it".

The story was being told over a smoke from the proceeds. Before the smoke was finished Dr. Feelgood's handle had become "Spanky". Except when the Dr.'s wife was around. Spanky could take a joke but Mrs. would go Mike Tyson on anybody for telling the story, saying Spanky, etc, etc.

Hope that story from the eighties answers your question. AFAIK, Spanky is still in the A.C. area. He was still driving in 99 but not sure what he's doing now. Almost certain he is still known as Spanky, except'n when the lady is present.

Canoeyawl
04-06-2011, 07:47 PM
Why don't we start a list of offenses that make it OK for a person four or five times larger to strike a child that is not allowed or able to strike back?
Sort of a datum line for life training.

Michael D. Storey
04-06-2011, 07:55 PM
This is really creepy. Is it appropriate to point out that it is always wrong to hit a child? How can a man have it all figgered out with cats but not with their own kind?

What am I missing, here?

Bobby of Tulsa
04-06-2011, 07:56 PM
Why don't we start a list of offenses that make it OK for a person four or five times larger to strike a child that is not allowed or able to strike back?
Sort of a datum line for life training.

Why dont we just not punish anyone for anything, since there seems to be no right or wrong???

htom
04-06-2011, 08:01 PM
Starting a fire in the basement with matches.
Disconnecting the hoses from the washing machine in the basement and having a water fight with them.
Throwing raw eggs at each other, and hitting the cars and stone on the house with them.
One of them got spanked for climbing a ladder leaning against the house (probably twelve feet in the air); the other was spanked for shaking the ladder while his brother was up there.

Spank, not strike.

skipper68
04-06-2011, 08:17 PM
The hitting of a child is wrong. I had been chased and beaten with a razor strap,a phone, a iron ..Kneeling on rice for hours,you name it. Them were the old days. You need RESPECT not fear. If you hit you lose respect. You need control, and then a long sincere talk. Connect. When you use violence it proves violence is the answer. It didn't with me, but it could have.

skipper68
04-06-2011, 08:22 PM
Starting a fire in the basement with matches.
Disconnecting the hoses from the washing machine in the basement and having a water fight with them.
Throwing raw eggs at each other, and hitting the cars and stone on the house with them.
One of them got spanked for climbing a ladder leaning against the house (probably twelve feet in the air); the other was spanked for shaking the ladder while his brother was up there.

Spank, not strike.That could have been my siblings. How did it work? I was the good one, and still got whipped. I never did with mine. Childhood is a time of learning, but also a time to learn trust. I PM'D the one spanking I did- it was a tap. Not vengeance but a lesson.

StevenBauer
04-06-2011, 08:24 PM
Interesting that two of the proponents (Ish and Jamie) of corporal punishment don't have kids yet vividly remember being beaten as children.



Steven

Chris Coose
04-06-2011, 08:25 PM
Why don't we start a list of offenses .

Torturing the family cat (does it matter if this behavior has been preceded by getting struck by a parent?)
Setting fires (does it matter if this behavior has been preceded by getting struck by a parent?)
swearing at the elderly neighbors (does it matter if this behavior has been preceded by getting struck by a parent?)
Laughing during the recitation of grace. (does it matter if this behavior has been preceded by getting struck by a parent?)
Joining the Hare Krishna temple or the Army (does it matter if this behavior has been preceded by getting struck by a parent?)
Shoplifting (does it matter if this behavior has been preceded by getting struck by a parent?)
Blowing up frogs with cherry bombs (does it matter if this behavior has been preceded by getting struck by a parent?)
Laying in wait in the driveway to spring on littler kids, whale on them and laugh at them crying (does it matter if this behavior has been preceded by getting struck by a parent?)
sinking all the skiffs at the dock for fun (does it matter if this behavior has been preceded by getting struck by a parent?)
Steal your dad's check book and write a lot of big checks.

There's probably lots more but this is some of the stuff a friend of mine did who was regularly swatted by his father, whom he was terrified of. His dad tried to hit me one day because he knew I came from a broken home and my dad wasn't around to correct my behavior properly.
The only thing I engaged in with this friend was a great deal of drinking begining at age 12.

Seemd to me his father never succeded in beating the devil out of my friend.

Besides your question Canoeyawl, maybe the proponents could explain when exactly striking a child becomes abuse.

skipper68
04-06-2011, 08:30 PM
This is really creepy. Is it appropriate to point out that it is always wrong to hit a child? How can a man have it all figgered out with cats but not with their own kind?

What am I missing, here?Y>BINGO!Children are more complex than a pet. My education was not to give my kids my childhood. I do believe a lesson should be learned. The lesson should be gracious,forgiving and true to your beliefs. Respect will get you farther than violence. Respect comes with the feeling of love and caring.THAT is the lesson to be passed on.

James McMullen
04-06-2011, 09:21 PM
Speak roughly to your little boy
And beat him when he sneezes
He only does it to annoy
Because he knows it teases

--the Duchess from Alice in Wonderland

Peter Malcolm Jardine
04-06-2011, 09:22 PM
Interesting that two of the proponents (Ish and Jamie) of corporal punishment don't have kids yet vividly remember being beaten as children.



Steven

and won't ever have children, and are pretty much crusty bachelors to boot.

skipper68
04-06-2011, 09:48 PM
Too late...Their character has already been determined developed in childhood.
You are SO right. I truly believe who they will be is in the first 7 years-BUT I also believe that the choices they make can be turned around by 13 years old. The front of the brain that makes right or wrong diagnoses is mature at 22 years old. Look it up. To me, this gives a "get out of jail free card" OTOH- if they weren't trained for compassion-they will be ruthless
forever. The choice is-rehab or jail. Some are VERY comfortable in a controlled environment. The question is -who is who?

skipper68
04-06-2011, 09:59 PM
Torturing the family cat (does it matter if this behavior has been preceded by getting struck by a parent?)
Setting fires (does it matter if this behavior has been preceded by getting struck by a parent?)
swearing at the elderly neighbors (does it matter if this behavior has been preceded by getting struck by a parent?)
Laughing during the recitation of grace. (does it matter if this behavior has been preceded by getting struck by a parent?)
Joining the Hare Krishna temple or the Army (does it matter if this behavior has been preceded by getting struck by a parent?)
Shoplifting (does it matter if this behavior has been preceded by getting struck by a parent?)
Blowing up frogs with cherry bombs (does it matter if this behavior has been preceded by getting struck by a parent?)
Laying in wait in the driveway to spring on littler kids, whale on them and laugh at them crying (does it matter if this behavior has been preceded by getting struck by a parent?)
sinking all the skiffs at the dock for fun (does it matter if this behavior has been preceded by getting struck by a parent?)
Steal your dad's check book and write a lot of big checks.

There's probably lots more but this is some of the stuff a friend of mine did who was regularly swatted by his father, whom he was terrified of. His dad tried to hit me one day because he knew I came from a broken home and my dad wasn't around to correct my behavior properly.
The only thing I engaged in with this friend was a great deal of drinking beginning at age 12.

Seemed to me his father never succeeded in beating the devil out of my friend.

Besides your question Canoeyawl, maybe the proponents could explain when exactly striking a child becomes abuse.
You are talking about a sociopath. They can pretend to have feelings. They DON"T. They can pretend to be the same as their friends. It is a game to them. No concern for anyone but themselves. Hard to tell, with your friends.Never hit children. Find another lesson.

Canoeyawl
04-06-2011, 11:50 PM
Why dont we just not punish anyone for anything, since there seems to be no right or wrong???

There is a reason they call it the Department of Corrections.
They don't spank those folks...
They correct them.

Waddie
04-07-2011, 12:22 AM
There is a reason they call it the Department of Corrections.
They don't spank those folks...
They correct them.

Considering recidivism rates, that's probably not the best example you could have cited....:)

regards,
Waddie

ishmael
04-07-2011, 12:55 AM
Interesting digression, though nothing to do with what I suggested. A spanking for bad behvior doesn't a sociopath make. A sociopath has no social conscience. It, by modern theory, comes out of being abused as an infant. The abuse can range from being denied milk to being burned by cigarettes when you are crying for milk.

Object relations is a vital study in modern psychology. Basically, it says that what you experience as an infant and a wee one is what you will live. Those first few years are crucial because that's where we build our relational attitude. It becomes embedded in ways that are almost impossible to change when we grow older.

Geno
04-07-2011, 01:24 AM
Depends completely on the individual.

My child went through a three year span where brutally beating his behind was the only thing that he responded to. My wife's child has needed a spanking but only twice in 6 years.

Every person and animal is different. Colonel Moseby needed an ass beating to convince him to act right right on a pretty regular basis for 6 months and never needed it again. Prissy never needed it ever - she would pee on herself if spoken harshly to.

Geno
04-07-2011, 01:30 AM
Interesting digression, though nothing to do with what I suggested. A spanking for bad behvior doesn't a sociopath make. A sociopath has no social conscience. It, by modern theory, comes out of being abused as an infant. The abuse can range from being denied milk to being burned by cigarettes when you are crying for milk.

Object relations is a vital study in modern psychology. Basically, it says that what you experience as an infant and a wee one is what you will live. Those first few years are crucial because that's where we build our relational attitude. It becomes embedded in ways that are almost impossible to change when we grow older.

That would probably be true for the least among us.

I was abused so hideously that my therapist actually said I should leave that nonsense buried. My father, stepfathers and mother's boyfriends hideously maltreated me and my brother. My mother actually had to kill one of them in self defense in front of me. I was 5. I nearly killed her with hatred because I was sworn to kill him for what he had done to my little brother.

ishmael
04-07-2011, 01:49 AM
I'm very sad to hear of your upbringing, Geno. People do rise above it, kudos for doing so.

AussieBarney
04-07-2011, 05:38 AM
Peter, I have spent a lifetime trying to live down my upbringing and to disprove the old adages about repeats. To live a life without violence when you have been taught that violence will get results has almost sent me insane, every bone in my body screams out to hurt, violate and destroy, but, I look around at the "normal people who seem to be able to live without violence and a little voice in my mind says "try to emulate these people, they are calm, happy and most of all free and alive" Thank you for the validation, You will never know how much it means to the little boy who still cringes in the dark waiting..... sorry if this got a little personal, but, These bloody trolls sometimes open the wounds and, well you can see what I live with.

Meli
04-07-2011, 05:48 AM
As I've said, I've spanked my kids occasionally(and regretted it)
They are great, fiesty but respectfull and well mannered.
I think maybe liberal Mums spank more than dads :D

Funny thing, my ex was an abused child (regular and irrational) He never ever smacked.
he has a certain way of radiating anger though, cold and terrifying. Or loud and cruel.
The kids are not one bit scared of me, but the Ex? lets just say we prefer his absence

Wild Dingo
04-07-2011, 06:43 AM
Now... FINALLY a sensible comment!!

"The look" ONLY works for some kids... 3 of mine it worked perfectly for just raise the voice a notch deepen the timbre of it and utter a slight growl and they were bawling their eyes out no need to smack whatever... never another issue in that particular problem area this worked for 3... a deeper growl and a look tended to slow another 2 down... but it was only with Aaron that things changed DRAMATICALLY... he was a child like Bobby talks of "time out" tried that to OUR COST for new beds mattresses fixing walls and windows... taking favorite toys or adventures away yep tried that too again the damage cost us!... so at age 5 he copped his first smacks... 3 on the bare bum each explained why 1) to remind him what he did was wrong 2) to inform him of our disappointment in his behavior and 3) dont do it again!... now I admit Aaron copped that a fair number of times until he was about 14 and taken of the ADHD meds and he changed...GREW!!... outstripped me within 12 months in height and weight!... so tactics changed... BUT IT WORKED by doing the smacks to his bare butt for those years the girls were EASIER to handle in that the other ADHD child KNEW that if she did anything like her brother SHE would cop the same... the others KNEW without doubt dad was serious and the line had been crossed

3 and 3 only smacks on the bare bum... my view is any more and your beating the child any less and its not effective... never with a switch a cane ruler wooden spoon or belt... I had them as a kid and it was a living hell... but I still turned out alright REGARDLESS of that why? because I CHOSE TO NOT be any other way! I didnt like the switch or cane and no way was I giving ANY child of mine that sort of aggressive violence... it scars... 2 or 3 smacks on the bare bum does not scar them!

When they were old enough I explained why... first it prepared them for life as an adult... you do something wrong in life there are repercussions... you lie steal cheat or whatever THERE WILL BE repercussions and they will be A LOT WORSE than a few small smacks on a small bum!!!... Second it gave the children boundaries and discipline... end of story IT DID and IT WORKED.

I am from the looks of it in the minority here... but Ive seen the results of children WITHOUT boundaries and without discipline in the home... and yep SOME turn out good people regardless but the majority can be seen in any reform school or prison in any land!!! and yep on the other side of the fence there are those who do have the same results regardless of the upbringing... people are people and make choices as they grow to adulthood REGARDLESS of the lack of or discipline or violence in the home as a child

MOST OF THE TIME say 70 - 80% even with Aaron a look a glare would be enough to stop something IF I was lucky enough to catch it BEFORE it happened... Kids WILL try to push the boundaries they WILL TRY to see what they can and cannot get away with... just a fact is all... but there is a MASSIVE difference between a couple of smacks on the bare bum than a switch beating or caning.

And yep I was a nightmare kid at the school I attended and yep I coped the cane and the switch at school OFTEN!!... and at home... OFTEN... so I chose to discipline my kids by setting boundaries and having repercussions for crossing them and you know something? IT WORKED!

But man some of the kids Ive seen and known through mine over the years who had NO discipline and NO boundaries in the home were some of the worst kids I think Id ever met... and always remember that our societies have changed over the years... now in many of our countries along with no boundaries or discipline in either the home or school theres also no punishment for crime... so what are we teaching our kids? we are teaching them at an EARLY AGE that if they want something all they have to do is take it regardless who it belongs too what it cost that person or what it means to them... just take it... and if you get caught? SO WHAT!! there is NO punishment!... they go through their childhood like that then into their youth and into early adulthood with no punishment meted out to them by either parent of system so they get to adulthood and keep doing it! WHY? Because no one cared enough to give them boundaries and put in place effective punishments!!!

Beating the wife? good god Id never even contemplate it! beating ANYONE is abhorrent... true violence as we see on the idiot box every night in the news is to me largely a result of the above no boundaries and a total lack of discipline from an early age... and a judicial system hell bent on NOT making the punishment fit the crime!!... hell the police officers around the world must spend over 80% of their time shaking their heads in disgust at parents at school systems, at governments and at the judicial system that demeans their very work!

Anyone else notice the age of some of the more violent criminals? YES ITS GETTIN YOUNGER!!! once mainly adults then young adults NOW we are seeing CHILDREN committing murder violent home invasions violent assault rape and a whole raft of crimes... Ever wondered why??? Hint the clue to the reason belongs in two realms two words lack of 1) boundaries 2) Lack of discipline... they are left to their own devises watch increasingly more and more violent movies cartoons animations and many of those encourage violence violent behavior stealing car jacking rape and murder... they are growing up without any knowledge of or understanding of repercussions for actions taken! Young formative minds being twisted by what we allow them to see and do...

Another factor often left out of the equasion but should be firmly in it... is that here in Aussie and in other western countries we are now seeing 3 generational social security welfare families... where everyone from the grandparent to the child grows up only knowing social security welfare and grow up with the expectation that THAT WILL BE their lives! No hope, no boundaries, no discipline... and people wonder why crime is getting more and more violent and aggressive? and people wonder why the criminals are getting younger and younger???

Does a beating work? NO DEFINANTLY ABSOLUTELY NOT!!!... But a few sharp smacks on the bum? YES! sets the ground works for a future adult with boundaries and discipline in their lives... simple as that in my book... but then Im in the minority here and only had 8 kids so what do I know eh? :D EACH KID IS DIFFERENT JUST AS EACH ADULT IS DIFFERENT Realize that and your on your way to realizing why a couple of smacks DO NOT mean lasting scars on the child or their psyche :cool:

Jezzzz Jack you sure know how to hit the buttons dude!!! :D

Steve McMahon
04-07-2011, 07:55 AM
LOL - Dingo: You nailed it 110%

ishmael
04-07-2011, 08:37 AM
I was thinking back and realized that in the grand scheme of things I was a pretty good kid. Oh, I did some of the things I was told not to, but in general I was compliant. I got good grades, dated the neighborhood sweetheart, etc.

Looking on it, as a will in middle age, I'm not sure it was good. Life takes a fire, and mine was usually on a bit of a smoulder. Only now is it starting to boil.

I had a dream the other night that most will misinterpret as sex. In it two women were kissing, and I reached out and joined them in the kiss.

A little dream hint, gleaned from years of study, when an image doubles like that something is coming to consciousness. In my dream, some feminine aspect is going to come to the fore in this life. I don't know exactly what, and that is a part of the drama.

S.V. Airlie
04-07-2011, 08:55 AM
Interesting that two of the proponents (Ish and Jamie) of corporal punishment don't have kids yet vividly remember being beaten as children.



Steven It only happend once. Hard to forget one instance i my life...I also remember my first boat that my older brother gave me. Even remember the day and year. I also remember our first phone number and pissing on a hidden electric fence line by mistake (only one incident) when I was eight. And just may be, I didn't want to have kids. Steven

Canoeyawl
04-07-2011, 09:45 AM
Why is beating (or slapping, or whatever the pc choice of words may be) on the bum selected as Ok?
What is the difference to a three year old whether is a slap on the fanny or a slap on the face?
The fanny business is obviously a way to hide the scars from the rest of the community. Perhaps a sort of a denial that you are so unable to teach and inspire knowlege that you resort to violence.

hokiefan
04-07-2011, 10:16 AM
Why is beating (or slapping, or whatever the pc choice of words may be) on the bum selected as Ok?
What is the difference to a three year old whether is a slap on the fanny or a slap on the face?
The fanny business is obviously a way to hide the scars from the rest of the community. Perhaps a sort of a denial that you are so unable to teach and inspire knowlege that you resort to violence.

If there are scars its abuse. Its abuse way before there are scars.

But I have no scars from my parents spankings. They were fairly earned and fairly delivered. There was always a "discussion" that went with them and that was invariably worse than the spankings. The last one was around 10 I guess. After that I remember thinking during the "discussions" that I wish he would just spank the crap out of me and send me to my room. This "discussion" is killing me!

Lying always earned a spanking. Always. Hitting my sister was too late in life to get a spanking. That got the most killer discussion.|:( Even though my Dad admitted she earned it.:D

Cheers,

Bobby

Soundbounder
04-07-2011, 10:24 AM
In a related story:

Colorado police pepper spray an 8 year old

http://www.nhregister.com/articles/2011/04/07/news/aa7pepperspray040611.txt

Canoeyawl
04-07-2011, 10:32 AM
I guess "scars" may have been the wrong word. A spanking does leave a nice red welt for some of the community to view (think school gym class).
There is a stigma attached to this, even if the bearer of the welts does not know it at the time. Watch a flock of chickens with even a slightly marred hen and you may understand it. It is no different than a classroom or even a large family, it's the way the world works.

There may be no physical "scars" left to tell the tale but the emotional scars are good for a lifetime.

But back to my original query - Why is it ok to strike the "bum" and not some other part of the body? What is the difference?

hokiefan
04-07-2011, 10:40 AM
I guess "scars" may have been the wrong word. A spanking does leave a nice red welt for some of the community to view (think school gym class).
There is a stigma attached to this, even if the bearer of the welts does not know it at the time. Watch a flock of chickens with even a slightly marred hen and you may understand it. It is no different than a classroom or even a large family, it's the way the world works.

There may be no physical "scars" left to tell the tale but the emotional scars are good for a lifetime.

But back to my original query - Why is it ok to strike the "bum" and not some other part of the body? What is the difference?

I don't feel I have any scars from my parents' spankings. I can see where some do and I empathize with them. Part of the thing with me is the "fairly earned, fairly delivered" part. By the time I can remember, I pretty much knew what was gonna get me a spanking. It took me a few more years to figure out I didn't get away with those things very often. As I said earlier, we didn't find it necessary to spank our kids, and so far so good.

The scars my parents left me are from other issues. Mild by many standards, but thats another discussion entirely.

And why is the bum OK? Good question. I think because done right it gets the kids attention, hurts a bit, but doesn't really hurt the kid. Many other areas do.

Cheers,

Bobby

Canoeyawl
04-07-2011, 11:05 AM
So - you learned from him that violence is an effective way to win your will.

Canoeyawl
04-07-2011, 11:23 AM
Are you talking to me?

Yes, sorry for the confusion.
As we age out of our childhood we learn (hopefully) what normal adult behavior is. I'm not implying that you advocate violence, only that at the time you threatened your father with violence - you understood that it was OK and would work.
A sixteen year old lad can be every bit as formidable as a grown man, and what may be acceptable to him will often be shrugged off as childhood behavior. But some never grow beyond that.

edit to add: The meek or weak or sick children unable to express themselves except through violence often just resort to firearms these days.

Canoeyawl
04-07-2011, 11:51 AM
His attitude did have its effect on me, and for many years, I was that guy you crossed the street to avoid. I was never a fighter, but I had a very intimidating way about me.

When I was in my late twenties, I hooked up with a young woman who had been abused by her father in ways too painful even to describe. She had survived a marriage to a man who took up where he left off.


This could be the story of my life.
The horribly abused woman thing is a very unlikely coincidence. Isn't it?

Lew Barrett
04-07-2011, 12:01 PM
Interesting that two of the proponents (Ish and Jamie) of corporal punishment don't have kids yet vividly remember being beaten as children.



Steven


Do you suspect they would perform their duties with righteous indignation?

My wife suggested long ago to me that I never take the advice of anybody who didn't have children in respect to rearing them. We made a lot of mistakes raising our kids seeing as how they don't come with a manual and we were pretty sure our parents had made mistakes of their own with us. The pattern they provided us wasn't a perfect template. But as I said, I always thought those who didn't have full experience raising kids were pretty poor teachers on the subject. Yet surprisingly, they very frequently have firm opinions on a topic they are unfamiliar with!

We didn't spank, and today our kids are productive, kind and wonderfully round people, so it is possible to get the job done without corporal punishment. I would say though that we were often too chummy with our kids. If I have any advice for new parents it is to always maintain a firm understanding between what it means to be a parent and what it means to be a pal. You really don't need to be their pals. But you don't need to spank to be a parent either. People who know us will also know that we had some famously rough times with a couple of our girls, and there is no denying that. All's well that ends well is about the most I can say on a public forum in that regard.

In the end, I think there are worse things to do than to "spank" but a lot of how all this turns out is dependent on how the punishment is delivered. Delivery in anger isn't going to work. I would also say that if a child remembers being spanked or not is irrelevant to determining if the punishment is efficacious or not. People, it is said, frequently don't remember significantly traumatic events. Whole industrial psychiatric teams make a living yanking out "repressed memories." I'm sure I don't have the proformas to comment on that industry, but I do think there's something to it. I can barely recall the brachytherapy I went through just six years ago. Of course, I don't want to. It sucked.

In the end, there are other ways to accomplish discipline than to spank. The discussion to my mind really centers more on what parents are willing to tolerate or allow before they bring their particular hammer down. My point of departure with some parents is that they are far to lax. With others, it is that they are too strict. Balance is required as it is in all things. It is the goal of good parenting. Achieving that is more important than if one spanks or not, but clearly the parent who can manage it without violence or physical response is, to my mind, the more skilled.

Good parenting can be done in any number of ways, but one needs a plan, a goal and a lot of patience. And whatever one does, one needs to remember that at some point you have to let go and the kid needs to take responsibility. If you prepare your kids for responsibility, you have pretty much done your job. If they know how to love you and themselves when they fly, then they are going to be able to do theirs.

People who never had kids, and maybe never even had a good marriage sometimes pontificate about how it's done
but I always change the topic as soon as I can when that starts to happen. Why waste time?

S.V. Airlie
04-07-2011, 12:09 PM
I agree with spanking a child n anger is not effective...I also think that spanking a child only occurs in serious situations. In my case that Steven wants to hit me with on his post, my actions may have caused my death by defying his orders, not to swim across the quarry alone. And to top it off, yup, I bowed to my parents when I reached the far side...It was more than just beng dangerous it was also flaunting him directly. I deserved a spanking and although I was spanked, it was not much of one but I learned my lesson.

B_B
04-07-2011, 12:16 PM
...After that I remember thinking during the "discussions" that I wish he would just spank the crap out of me and send me to my room. This "discussion" is killing me!

Lying always earned a spanking. Always. Hitting my sister was too late in life to get a spanking. That got the most killer discussion.|:(
Excellent evidence that it's the discussion that was the pedagogical part - the spanking was unnecessary. If hitting is unnecessary, couldn't it be considered abusive: not by it's severity, but purely by a lack of necessity?

Bruce Taylor
04-07-2011, 12:33 PM
In the end, there are other ways to accomplish discipline than to spank.

That's certainly been true for my three. I really can't imagine having to hit them, because they respond so well to subtler forms of correction.

But Shane makes a good point when he says not all kids (or families) are the same. If some of you guys have found spanking helpful, I can't argue with that.

I proposed, earlier, that there might be more than one way to raise a civilized adult. ;)

Chris Coose
04-07-2011, 12:36 PM
The more I consider this topic the weirder it gets.
I just don't know how a person can hit a child. That's the end of it. I can't think about this topic anymore.

Lew Barrett
04-07-2011, 12:47 PM
That's certainly been true for my three. I really can't imagine having to hit them, because they respond so well to subtler forms of correction.

But Shane makes a good point when he says not all kids (or families) are the same. If some of you guys have found spanking helpful, I can't argue with that.

I proposed, earlier, that there might be more than one way to raise a civilized adult. ;)

D'Accord. Everything we learned raising children has proven to us that in our setting the key has been example, consistency, reason, and knowledge that we are the bosses. This is all administered with love and respect. Today, we adore our kids and they adore us and seek our advice. I am quite proud of that last bit.

But this was something that had to be worked out over time and refined as we learned our jobs. I can see how somebody would like to slap their kids, and I guess I could also imagine a regime where corporal punishment might work. But that was not our path, and today I am quite glad of it.

Raising kids is a hard job for any number of reasons. Maybe like solving problems with wooden boats there is more than one way to do it right. But to my way of thinking, spanking is an easy out, the parental equal of fixing a bit of rot with CPES. There are more sophisticated ways to exert control.

George Jung
04-07-2011, 01:00 PM
Abused kids have a tendency to become abusive adults. There is nuance to that, but as a generality, this will do. I was spanked -sometimes with a switch, sometimes with a belt - as a kid. My dad was beaten as a kid - don't know about grandpa. When we had kids, I was determined to 'do it right', and I spanked (way too frequently) my first daughter. I hated it - and came to realize 'discipline by spanking' was just an excuse to hit someone, and it also taught that kid it was okay to hit - expected, even. My younger brother broke the mold for our family; he was smart, and stubborn, and refused to be cowed by my dad. He couldn't hit him hard enough to make him cry, each 'spanking' (I'm being kind) followed by a 'you can't hurt me'! That one episode ended all spankings, for all of us, a real reprieve. My 1st would challenge me; the second would take notes, and never seemed to do anything wrong. My twins - one tenderhearted, cried with just a look of disapproval. Second one - 'that didn't hurt', not a big deal, and no reform value. I didn't spank often, and always to the tush, open handed, never in anger (the gluteus are large muscles - the reason), never to cause pain - to get attention. But I quit that early on, resorted instead to time outs, and then 'the talks'. They had to sit and discuss the infraction - with me. When they got older, I made them write papers on 'what you did/why it was wrong/corrective actions'. They hated that; the tough twin requested a spanking instead. Didn't need many talks or papers to have the infractions simply disappear.

I saw an older woman yesterday, routine checkup. She'd had a bowel resection years ago - why? 'Obstruction from scarring'. ????? It seems her mother was a terror, beat the crap out of her, frequently, when she was a child. Probably ruptured the bowel, or caused bleeding, and scarring.

I apologized to my kids for the spankings, years ago. The oldest, who took the brunt, several times. And I've talked to her about spankings, and how there's a better way. And the only way to break the intergenerational cycle is for a smart person to put an end to it. BTW, I agree with Lew - you are not there to be your kids 'buddy'; you're there for parenting. And consistency - kids want to know where the line is drawn; when it moves, they go searching for it.

Canoeyawl
04-07-2011, 01:26 PM
I can only assume this is sarcasm.


Cheers!

I'm going to send you a PM on that one...

TomF
04-07-2011, 01:36 PM
... the only way to break the intergenerational cycle is for a smart person to put an end to it...This. Any negative intergenerational cycle, not simply of violence.

I have enormous respect for the people who've done it; I live with one, and am constantly awestruck. The personal cost is difficult to underestimate, but the impact is difficult to overestimate.

S.V. Airlie
04-07-2011, 01:40 PM
Some here actually a lot talk about abuse..I'm against that form of punishment regardless. However I do not think a few spankings over say 10 yrs. amounts to abuse. I was never whipped. I never had the "belt" taken to my backside..These are two issues and should be kept that way. People say that raising one's voice to a kid is abuse.. That is true if that voice is raised indescriminately...

htom
04-07-2011, 02:26 PM
I guess "scars" may have been the wrong word. A spanking does leave a nice red welt for some of the community to view (think school gym class).
There is a stigma attached to this, even if the bearer of the welts does not know it at the time. Watch a flock of chickens with even a slightly marred hen and you may understand it. It is no different than a classroom or even a large family, it's the way the world works.

There may be no physical "scars" left to tell the tale but the emotional scars are good for a lifetime.

But back to my original query - Why is it ok to strike the "bum" and not some other part of the body? What is the difference?

You seemed to have missed the post I made about being spanked. I don't remember it happening. My parents, and grandparents, and a couple of my aunts and uncles all tell me I was spanked, by them. I -do- remember seeing my younger siblings spanked (rarely); they also don't remember it happening. I remember spanking my youngest brothers; they deny it happened, the middle two remember it.

We remember spanking because we saw it, or did it, not because it was done to us. If it left marks for gym class, it wasn't a spanking, it was something more severe. If the child remembers it happening to them a month later, it probably was also more severe than a spanking.

Why the bottom? My guess is tradition, probably begun because there's less chance of being bitten.

hokiefan
04-07-2011, 03:10 PM
Excellent evidence that it's the discussion that was the pedagogical part - the spanking was unnecessary. If hitting is unnecessary, couldn't it be considered abusive: not by it's severity, but purely by a lack of necessity?

In my case, with my parents it transitioned from basically a spanking and a scolding as a little child, to a spanking and "discussion" as an older child, then to the "discussion" as an early teen and on. As we grew up, so did our punishment. I never considered the spanking abusive as my parents did it. Part of that may have been everyone I knew got spanked, many much more severely than I ever did.

And that "discussion" about hitting my sister was the only time my Dad ever threatened to hurt me. He told me no matter how much my sister deserved to be hit (and she did!), that a man didn't hit a woman, ever. And if he ever found out that I hit a woman he would kill me. He said that very quietly and calmly. I never quite believed the "kill me" part, but I knew I never wanted to find out either.

Cheers,

Bobby

Canoeyawl
04-07-2011, 03:12 PM
Memories are funny.

You may be not be cognisant today that it happened, yet certain that it did.

Pain is best forgotten. Any brain knows this and will go to great lengths, bizzare even, to avoid the memory of it. It is a self defense mechanism.
It seems that we may not always recognise behavioral patterns based on corporal punishment and that is to our detriment. Of course if it doesn't hurt, or hurt much, it may be interpreted as a caress. Humans need that attention, especially young ones, and they will seek it out.

You have to be a little smarter than the dog you are trying to train.

Lew Barrett
04-07-2011, 03:13 PM
One problem with spanking as discipline is that presumably at some point children become too old to spank. What do you do then? And what do they learn? It's ok to be physical until you are 12, then we must turn to other forms of controlling behavior?

The practice leaves unanswered questions.

George, are we in danger of becoming philosophical twins? :) Consistency is huge in parent/child relationships. Children need to know what they can count on, It's more than just useful in rearing; it is also a great comfort. Thank you for pointing that out. And The Line must be carefully and reasonably drawn, and then maintained with precision.

All of this is easier to say than to do.

hokiefan
04-07-2011, 03:18 PM
All of this is easier to say than to do.

The whole process of raising children well is much easier to say than to do.

Just sayin (in the words of my 19yo daughter:D)

Cheers,

Bobby

Meli
04-07-2011, 04:27 PM
Why, the bum and not elsewhere?
Well it's padded, the last bit presented as he's fleeing with the biccys.
and you never ever ever hit a child on the head.

Got nothing to do with hiding a welt from the neighbours, a smack hard enough to raise a welt is abuse

Ed Harrow
04-07-2011, 07:57 PM
Paraphrasing Herr Clausewitz, "hitting is an expression of discipline by other means"

26 kids
4 dogs
3 cats
innumerable kittens

and never felt a need to hit a one of them. You feeling a need to hit somebody? Find someone your own size.

"What, are you mad that you reason so!"

Ted Hoppe
04-07-2011, 08:16 PM
It really is a question of humiliation and cruelty. I too come from a very harsh upbringing. it has been my wife who has encouraged and yes taught me to be a better father. I will get it wrong from time to time, but know we are always learning to be better despite ourselves. A short time out, a temporary removal from a social situation or the elimination of use of electronic devices are an amazing correctional tools that leave little emotional scarring and get the right response. moreover, it starts a dialog that plays it forward rather than fear, mistrust and hurt that often accompanies corporal punishment.

Canoeyawl
04-07-2011, 08:38 PM
I dropped/threw a TV out of the living room window one afternoon in a frustrated fit. We didn't have another for several years. As foolish as it was, the kids learned to read and read well.
All three went on through college and two through graduate school. That may not have happened with quite the ease that it did if we had kept the TV.

B_B
04-07-2011, 11:54 PM
....And that "discussion" about hitting my sister was the only time my Dad ever threatened to hurt me. He told me no matter how much my sister deserved to be hit (and she did!), that a man didn't hit a woman, ever. And if he ever found out that I hit a woman he would kill me. He said that very quietly and calmly. I never quite believed the "kill me" part, but I knew I never wanted to find out either.
Been pondering this for a while, but would like to remove the idea that we're talking about Bobby and his sister and his Dad. Let's just take the story and remove the characters - I don't want to personalize what I'm saying: it's not directed at Bobby or his family.

Here we have a man who is willing to hit, or spank, his daughter for corrective purposes (i.e. every lie earned a spanking), but who threatens his son with serious bodily injury for doing exactly what he did (i.e. my dad agreed she deserved to be hit).

The father says "I can use physical coercion to correct behaviour I deem unacceptable in a female, but if you ever use physical coercion to correct behaviour we both deem unacceptable in a female I'll kill you".

This is this not extremely odd?

Andrew Craig-Bennett
04-08-2011, 05:09 AM
I am honestly more worried about my tendency to say cruel things to my children, when provoked (a trait picked up from my mother, who was very good at it) than by any urge to strike a child.

I think that one great virtue in a parent is consistency.

PeterSibley
04-08-2011, 05:24 AM
I think that might well depend on the particular consistency Andrew .There are some things where inconsistency might be a child's favoured course .

The prior might be a good subject for some contemplation .

Andrew Craig-Bennett
04-08-2011, 05:28 AM
Peter I really do think that inconsistency is the worst offence in a parent.

If a parent is consistently nasty, the child knows what to expect and can take some avoiding action. But a parent who is kind gentle and considerate at one time and cruel and uncaring at another is worse, because the child's expectations are cruelly disappointed, and that makes it far worse.

ishmael
04-08-2011, 05:33 AM
Saying cruel things, or saying nothing is cruelty most have experienced. "I did a great job with this." And people were too busy to respond.

My mother, who worked all her life, made it a rule that when the kids were home she was home.

PeterSibley
04-08-2011, 05:42 AM
Peter I really do think that inconsistency is the worst offence in a parent.

If a parent is consistently nasty, the child knows what to expect and can take some avoiding action. But a parent who is kind gentle and considerate at one time and cruel and uncaring at another is worse, because the child's expectations are cruelly disappointed, and that makes it far worse.

I agree completely , my meaning was that should a parent find themselves being consistently violent or cruel to a child the child might very much wish that to stop . For the parent to choose a new consistency , to say , ''I see the error of my ways .I will not do this again ,'' and mean it .

Andrew Craig-Bennett
04-08-2011, 06:19 AM
I agree.

TomF
04-08-2011, 07:29 AM
Peter I really do think that inconsistency is the worst offence in a parent.

If a parent is consistently nasty, the child knows what to expect and can take some avoiding action. But a parent who is kind gentle and considerate at one time and cruel and uncaring at another is worse, because the child's expectations are cruelly disappointed, and that makes it far worse.I rather agree ACB. Puts me in mind of the experiments on white rats. The ones who pressed the lever and got food were happy and fat. The ones who pressed the lever and nothing happened learned that the lever was no big deal. The ones who pressed the lever and sometimes got food ... went nuts. Lived for pressing the damned thing, in a way that wasn't true for either other group.

I think much of the more serious f#cked-up-ed-ness arises from delivering similar mixed messages in parenting.

I also think that a fiercely sharp tongue can be every bit as damaging, or moreso, than a heavy hand. A few in my circle of friends and acquaintances come to mind.

Andrew Craig-Bennett
04-08-2011, 09:28 AM
I think much of the more serious f#cked-up-ed-ness arises from delivering similar mixed messages in parenting.


Tom, you have taken my mundane observation and made an excellent one. I have been thinking about your rats pressing the lever and going nuts about it and that is a first class picture of a fxxxed up child turning into a fxxxed up adult.

hokiefan
04-08-2011, 09:29 AM
Been pondering this for a while, but would like to remove the idea that we're talking about Bobby and his sister and his Dad. Let's just take the story and remove the characters - I don't want to personalize what I'm saying: it's not directed at Bobby or his family.

Here we have a man who is willing to hit, or spank, his daughter for corrective purposes (i.e. every lie earned a spanking), but who threatens his son with serious bodily injury for doing exactly what he did (i.e. my dad agreed she deserved to be hit).

The father says "I can use physical coercion to correct behaviour I deem unacceptable in a female, but if you ever use physical coercion to correct behaviour we both deem unacceptable in a female I'll kill you".

This is this not extremely odd?

Interesting that you bring this up. After my post I went out and painted the garage door. Painting requires that you pay attention so you don't make a lot of mess, but doesn't really occupy your mind. So anyway, somewhere in there I thought about this very topic. And the reality is I never really figured it out. Its still somewhat of a mystery to me.

I don't remember my Dad spanking my sister, even though I believe he did at times. Partly because when my sister got spanked it was her problem and I didn't really care.:d And in part because most of the spankings came from Mom. She was there during the day when we were playing and misbehaving and took care of whatever discipline was needed. There was no, "Wait till your Father gets home." By the time he got home the matter was dealt with and history. Unless you had really blown it and he gave you a followup "discussion".

Doesn't really answer the question because I don't have an answer in my case. And I'm not sure he was really threatening physical violence but making the point that a man hitting a woman was beyond outrage and I would suffer consequences from him. Although he may have meant it literally, I'm not totally sure. I could never say that to my son, but he does know there would be severe consequences.

Cheers,

Bobby

George Jung
04-08-2011, 01:08 PM
I've been mulling this topic, as well. Those of us who received 'special attention' as kids, and are now parents, have to figure out why we were treated as we were, decide if that was the correct approach, and if not, change how we deal with our children. I don't blame my parents - my mother lost her parents when she was 5; my dad grew up in a dysfunctional family, and we all incorporate how we were raised. That, and in the early 1900's, that form of 'discipline' was widely accepted. I can recall the slow, progressive changes in how society viewed this topic, over the years since my childhood. It's been gradual, to the point we are today.

But one thing, mulling, I recognized. Anytime I've dealt with my kids, I've always accessed my 'inner child', what I experienced and how it made me feel, and evaluated what approach would have been more effective, in dealing with me. It translates pretty well; it's made me a better dad.

TomF
04-08-2011, 01:20 PM
Yeah, well my wife has accessed her inner child too, and pretty much whatever that little girl experienced, she's tried to do the opposite. With some quite brilliant, humbling success.

It is incredibly painful for such folks to do even such mundane things as attend their kids' school concerts, sign report cards, or go to see their stuff at the science fair, when every such instance is a reminder of a hole in their own history. To say nothing of choosing daily to offer attention and compassion, rather than (at best) indifference.

Lew Barrett
04-08-2011, 04:29 PM
But one thing, mulling, I recognized. Anytime I've dealt with my kids, I've always accessed my 'inner child', what I experienced and how it made me feel, and evaluated what approach would have been more effective, in dealing with me. It translates pretty well; it's made me a better dad.

Nice. I only quoted the last part, but I got a lovely feeling reading this.


Yeah, well my wife has accessed her inner child too, and pretty much whatever that little girl experienced, she's tried to do the opposite. With some quite brilliant, humbling success.

It is incredibly painful for such folks to do even such mundane things as attend their kids' school concerts, sign report cards, or go to see their stuff at the science fair, when every such instance is a reminder of a hole in their own history. To say nothing of choosing daily to offer attention and compassion, rather than (at best) indifference.

I struggled and failed for years as a parent, but one day everything seemed to click for me. Like so much in life, learning to be a good parent is a process, and being determined to succeed has much to do with success itself.

Like you Tom, I seem to have had a wife who has been extremely gifted and talented. But let it be known that while she has (in my mind) unequaled good judgment, she is also amazingly patient and non-critical. Allowing the children to learn through their own errors has been one of the important lessons I have learned. You can only teach them so much. Some they need to learn for themselves.

PeterSibley
04-08-2011, 04:46 PM
One of the terrible problems with parenthood is that we seldom get a chance to learn. With many of of us I suspect our only initial experience is our own family as we grew up .There is no training , no instruction but there is a sublime acceptance that we know how to raise our kids .Unfortunately that is also very often untrue ,the mistakes of our parents are repeated initially , recognised and if we (and our children ) are lucky we learn and improve ,incrementally as the generations pass .

I am fortunate enough to now being intimately involved in raising my grandchildren and I am very sure I am doing a better job of it than I did with my children .We do learn .

coelacanth2
04-08-2011, 04:46 PM
I've spankedmy son twice - once for hitting his mom in a temper fit over being told no and once for sticking a screwdriver into a wall outlet. Both were preceded by firm one sided discussions of why the spanking was coming. Threatening to take away tv on the weekend ( the only time he gets it ) and recreational computer access is FAR more effective.

I still hit him on a fairly regular basis, but he's more flexible than I am and usually kicks me in the head ;D

Bobby of Tulsa
04-08-2011, 05:38 PM
I really wish you guys would take the harsh punishment off bank robbing, it's just so wrong

Bobby of Tulsa
04-08-2011, 06:06 PM
Well crap, I was just about to stop robbin banks. Oh well.

Wild Dingo
04-09-2011, 02:41 AM
mmmm mulling over this... as we all seem to have been doing :D

Several things come to mind... BOTH parents for one... in many households there are for any number of reasons only one parent... you know with Aaron the worst "scar" he has of his younger years isnt me shutting the door to his room and smacking his bum 3 times... it was his mother TAPING his antics to play back to me when I got home! THAT has scarred him worse than any smack on the bum ever did! And she did that very often... she was one that didnt believe in discipline and left "that" to me she also didnt believe in boundaries either... so what did she do when Aaron or one of the others played merry havoc because dad wasnt home? She taped them then played it back to me when I got home... this I think had a very profound effect on him and a couple of others... she betrayed him by not doing anything THEN but letting it drag on in some cases for a week until I got back home! BIT BLOODY LATE THEN! :mad: So then all I could do was take him to his room and give him "the lecture" which meant it went on yet again!... for me and the kids it was DEAL WITH IT NOW dont punish me more by making me wait hours days weeks so dad could do it!

Now... when we were a family and I dealt with the discipline in the home and set the boundaries we had issues every family does but we never had serious major police involvement drugs pain early pregnancy etc etc... now after she left and I was taken out of the frame what happened? mmm discipline was gone totally none... no boundaries were made or adhered to kids could and did pretty much whatever they wanted while they were with her... no discipline no boundaries what happened?... as it had always been in our home I even though as most know I was pretty messed up very little for the kids changed at "home"... homework first and formost no tv games computers or going to mates places until it was done both kids doing well at school... NO going out after 9pm and be home by 9pm... NO boyfriends or girlfriends before 15 and they must come and meet me before anything else happens... this went the whole way down through the kids and all accepted it willingly... but change that and suddenly there is no dad in the frame and what happens? Josh got in trouble at school several times and is still having issues at school and with bullying but worse Brie dated a man of 20 at 14 and became a mum at 15... no boundaries! no discipline = trouble... my experience yours may be different but thats mine and always has been with whatever family Ive known IF the child has NO discipline and NO boundaries THEY WILL do things that will screw up their lives

Now I love Brie and little Annie to bits... But the thing is without boundaries Brie would have her boyfriend come whenever he or she wanted there was no age control no watching no followup from the parent... "theyre studying" yeah ok close up human biology!!... Josh gets into trouble at school she doesnt even attend to find out... and when she does hes consigned to his bedroom... yep that worked well considering his continual being in trouble at school now his lowered grades yep it worked... no... Josh and Brie like all children NEEDED and NEEDS Boundaries AND discipline!

Stop confusing abuse with discipline there is a damned difference!...

When is NO discipline and NO boundaries good for a child? how do you enforce that? by talking to them? right that works ALL the time with ALL children right? bullcrap! pure unadulterated bullcrap!! Sorry but it is... some kids will turn out great adults REGARDLESS of their upbringing REGARDLESS of abuse of either side of the fence too much or too little THEY WILL turn out great adults... and SOME NEED BOUNDARIES ENFORCED...

I know NONE of my kids would ever have dreamed of standing up to an adult ANY adult as a child... but I have experienced many children WITHOUT boundaries stand up to me even when they were aware of their wrong doing ie steeling from my child in front of me! No boundaries those children believed they could do what they wanted so did!... without discipline they knew NOTHING would come of my either reporting them to their parents or to the police!...

Abuse is NEVER acceptable no matter how its framed... Ive had MANY MANY opportunities to talk with soldiers over the years you know the blokes who were conscripted into the army? National Service we called it Nashos... and you know what? EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM BAR NONE!!! have said it was the BEST thing that happened to them why? because they were given boundaries guidance AND discipline!!!... if that be the case what the hell is the problem with a parent weather mother or father giving their child who they love (remember the Nasho leadership DID NOT love those blokes) some boundaries reinforced with appropriate discipline?... obvious word there being APPROPRIATE!!... a child IS a child so appropriate being a gentle god it doesnt have to be hard or even firm just a smack on the bum does not affect them other than to give appropriate discipline to the child... many children only need to experience that embarressment ONCE to never do anything like it again! others may need it time and again till they get the message...

Strewth look at the court system for crying out loud!!! CHILDREN YES DAMNED CHILDREN are in there EVERY SINGLE DAY for serious and not so serious crime... and many of them are constantly returning to face the court again and again and again... why? because theres NO BOUNDARIES AND NO DISCIPLINE in the home which then leads onto the street and then into the courts where yet still there is NO BOUNDARIES AND NO DISCIPLE meted out to them!!! How many times does it take before people realize that a 10 year old boy or girl SHOULD NOT be on the streets after 8pm???? Where are the boundaries for those MANY MANY children? where is the discipline? where is the caring loving parent to mete it out? or the legal system that finally makes the punishment FIT the crime?... gone thanks to the so called "politically correct social engineers" that are destroying the fabric of society.

I recall a saying from my youth "do the crime do the time" people who got in trouble regardless if its with family or the law FACED UP TO IT and accepted THEIR choices and KNEW they there was a repercussion to face... beat someone senseless YOU KNEW YOU were going to gaol, steal someones car YOU KNEW YOU were going to gaol, Stand up to someone and abuse them YOU KNEW you were in for a fight... swear abuse be rude to an adult you KNEW you were in deep crap from either your parents or the law... nowadays? Its no longer there... why? because there is NO repercussion no discipline and no negative to face for doing wrong either in the family or in society... how many serious crimes are done EVERY DAY by children? how many violent home invasions? physically violent attacks on the aged? theft, rape, and the list goes on are done by CHILDREN??? A HELL OF A LOT more than any of us think... the media only ever gives us the MOST sellable instances but its every second of every minute of every day... why? why has this become commonplace? A total and complete LACK of boundaries and discipline

I have no hessitation in saying I smacked my children for infractions... NEVER beat them and NEVER anywhere but the padded bum Never with anything other than the open hand and never more than 3 smacks... NO PROBLEMS all respectful polite honest kids... until the family situation changed... the elder 6 who had grown up with that in the home are prefectly well adjusted adults now with no issues whatever the other two who have had no boundaries or discipline for 4 years now are complete messes! so tell me again which works better??

Both parents NEED to be involved in both boundaries AND discipline and it must be dealt with IMMEDIATELY... not held onto until "when dad gets home"... that is a cop out and the kids know it... consistancy boundaries and discipline with children works... but ALL children are different some need it some dont as long as they KNOW the boundaries they are completely happy and never step over the line others need to have it reinforced once and that is the end of it others will "try it on" continuously and so you must be consistant...

As someone said parenting does NOT come with a manual...

Whichever way a new parent goes is their choice and hopefully it works for them... opinions and advice WILL come from all corners its up to them if they use it or not... but regardless every single child requires boundaries and discipline... EVERY single parent adult NEEDS boundaries and discipline... WE have both here at the WBF for gods sake!!! Boundaries set dont abuse dont put nude or semi nude photos up or discipline will happen ala banning and that was given consistantly you did it didnt matter who you were bam you were banned as soon as Scot knew end of story... unless it was too long ago... and you know what? MOST of us adhere to the boundaries thanks to a few who have enjoyed the discipline factor!!! We learnt from their mistakes NOT to push the boundaries here on the WBF... same same in life in the home in society without boundaries discipline and consistancy this place as in life itself becomes chaos with people doing and saying whatever they feel like abusing whoever they feel like putting up any disgusting thing they feel like... but with it? we have controlled chaos :D We have a forum that is arguably the best of its kind on the net... why? because we all learnt!!! Same same for a child to learn in the home to take into the world without boundaries discipline and consisitancy we would have chaos... and have a good look around you at the societies of our world guess what? its turning rapidly into chaos!!!

skipper68
04-09-2011, 02:52 AM
OK Ishmael, what are the answers you were looking for? Can you give us your thoughts on ths?? What worked on your decisions? What did you decide????

Wild Dingo
04-09-2011, 02:57 AM
No kids no decision needed in Jacks case :D other than with the cat of course... boundaries? dont crap or piddle anywhere other than the litter box... discipline? piddle and crap anywhere other than litter box you get your nose rubbed in it and tossed outside for awhile... consistancy? do that a few times and the cat WILL learn to piddle and crap in the litter box ONLY :cool:

My word!!! It works :rolleyes:

S.V. Airlie
04-09-2011, 09:40 AM
Glad you did not leave Shane...

pipefitter
04-09-2011, 01:48 PM
It is right to spank some times and it takes a fair amount of thought and really knowing your kids. Ask my sons. In my case, one time, with a switch and plenty advance notice, including the amount they were to get. I had just taken over their care from my ex wife. They were completely out of control. From that moment on, I had full cooperation and respect, and they, mutual cooperation amongst themselves. It moved me from their casual friend/caretaker to parent. Yes, I felt horrible for doing it and they felt even more so for having to put me thru it. When it was over and the tears stopped, they formed a mini committee, and walked out and gave me a joint apology with a sudden unanimous relief. It turned out to be the proudest moment of our relationship. Never had to do it again. To this day, I am still the parent and my sons, gentlemen. I still have my youngest at home. If something serious arises, he automatically addresses me as sir, and any female authority figures as mam. My ex wife resents the relationship I have with my sons, who will go to bat for me at the drop of a hat. What she refuses to understand, is that while she tried to be the cool and hip, play friend mom, it was I who was on them every waking moment with those x-ray eyes on both sides of my head.

If the thought of me spanking my kids disturbs some, so be it. I particularly resent the impudence with so many of our young people today. Remember, it is the rest of us who have to put up with these kids after they leave your nests, and to those who know the difference, only reflects badly on the source of their upbringing.

George Jung
04-09-2011, 02:06 PM
You spanking doesn't bother me, in the least - every situation is different; and until you have the kids attention, you're ineffective. But you did a nice job of differentiating 'spanking' (as in discipline) and 'beating' (abuse), and you used the single episode to establish the routine, expectations etc. - and they could tell you hated doing it, but did so because you loved them.

Totally different situation.

George Jung
04-09-2011, 02:40 PM
btw, I got to wondering - are you familiar with the child development and how it affects behavior? I don't recall the exact info, and no links, but

what I recall is - kids have pretty much 'hard wired' by age 3, in terms of right/wrong, discipline. Perhaps there's newer info on this. But with that in mind

'turning those kids around', after they were raised differently, is monumental.