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wardd
03-28-2011, 02:17 PM
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/03/28/william-cronon-university_n_841541.html



But it's that blog's content that has gotten Cronon into hot water with Wisconsin Republicans. Cronon has been a vocal critic of Gov. Scott Walker's crusade against collective bargaining; in a New York Times op-ed last week, Cronon wrote that "Mr. Walker's conduct has provoked a level of divisiveness and bitter partisan hostility the likes of which have not been seen in this state since at least the Vietnam War." And in Scholar as Citizen's inaugural post March 15, titled "Who's Really Behind Recent Republican Legislation in Wisconsin and Elsewhere? (Hint: It Didn't Start Here)," Cronon charged his "fellow citizens" to investigate what he calls Walker's "well-planned and well-coordinated national campaign."


http://scholarcitizen.williamcronon.net/2011/03/15/alec/


well worth reading


The Walker-Koch Prank Phone Call Reveals A Lot, But Not Nearly Enough

The prank phone call that Governor Scott Walker unhesitatingly accepted from a blogger purporting to be billionaire conservative donor David Koch has received lots of airplay, and it certainly demonstrates that the governor is accustomed to having conversations with deep-pocketed folks who support his cause. If you’ve not actually seen the transcript, it’s worth a careful reading, and is accessible here:
http://host.madison.com/wsj/article_531276b6-3f6a-11e0-b288-001cc4c002e0.html

But even though I’m more than prepared to believe that David and Charles Koch have provided large amounts of money to help fund the conservative flood tide that is sweeping through state legislatures right now, I just don’t find it plausible that two brothers from Wichita, Kansas, no matter how wealthy, can be responsible for this explosion of radical conservative legislation. It also goes without saying that Scott Walker cannot be single-handedly responsible for what we’re seeing either; I wouldn’t believe that even for Wisconsin, let alone for so many other states. The governor clearly welcomes the national media attention he’s receiving as a spear-carrier for the movement. But he’s surely not the architect of that movement.

So…who is?

Conservative History Post-1964: A Brilliant Turnaround Story

I can’t fully answer that question in a short note, but I can sketch its outline and offer advice for those who want to fill in more of the details.

I’ll start by saying–a professorial impulse I just can’t resist–that it’s well worth taking some time to familiarize yourself with the history of the conservative movement in the United States since the 1950s if you haven’t already studied the subject. Whatever you think of its politics, I don’t think there can be any question that the rise of modern conservatism is one of the great turnaround stories in twentieth-century American history. It’s quite a fascinating series of events, in which a deeply marginalized political movement–tainted by widespread public reaction against Senator Joe McCarthy, the John Birch Society, and the massively defeated Barry Goldwater campaign of 1964–managed quite brilliantly to remake itself (and American politics) in the decades that followed.

I provide a brief reading list at the end of this note because many people from other parts of the political spectrum often seem not to take the intellectual roots of American conservatism very seriously. I believe this is a serious mistake. One key insight you should take from this history is that after the Goldwater defeat in 1964, visionary conservative leaders began to build a series of organizations and networks designed to promote their values and construct systematic strategies for sympathetic politicians. Some of these organizations are reasonably well known–for instance, the Heritage Foundation, founded in 1973 by Paul Weyrich, a Racine native and UW-Madison alumnus who also started the Moral Majority and whose importance to the movement is almost impossible to overestimate–but many of these groups remain largely invisible.

That’s why events like the ones we’ve just experienced in Wisconsin can seem to come out of nowhere. Few outside the conservative movement have been paying much attention, and that is ill-advised. (I would, by the way, say the same thing about people on the right who don’t make a serious effort to understand the left in this country.)

It’s also important to understand that events at the state level don’t always originate in the state where they occur. Far from it.

perldog007
03-28-2011, 02:28 PM
Did they threaten to slit his throat?

wardd
03-28-2011, 02:30 PM
Did they threaten to slit his throat?

who, what, where, when?

perldog007
03-28-2011, 03:05 PM
who, what, where, when? really (http://www.google.com/search?aq=f&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=Death+threats+against+Wisconsin+Republicans)?

Recalls and such are fine, politicians have always throw weight when threatened politically but Wisconson reds are getting more than threats to be voted out. I think it's sleazy to crack down on the professor. Those protests have gone far beyond peaceful and if anyone had goods like this on the tea party it would be all over the news.

Offhand, know how many times Bill O'reilly was audited by the IRS during the Clinton years? If you only read news from one slant, you are only going hear from one side. No need to throw out the baby with the bathwater, but the baby needs both sides of that butt washed.

wardd
03-28-2011, 03:10 PM
really (http://www.google.com/search?aq=f&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=Death+threats+against+Wisconsin+Republicans)?

Recalls and such are fine, politicians have always throw weight when threatened politically but Wisconson reds are getting more than threats to be voted out. I think it's sleazy to crack down on the professor. Those protests have gone far beyond peaceful and if anyone had goods like this on the tea party it would be all over the news.

Offhand, know how many times Bill O'reilly was audited by the IRS during the Clinton years? If you only read news from one slant, you are only going hear from one side. No need to throw out the baby with the bathwater, but the baby needs both sides of that butt washed.

if anyone broke the law then the law should take care of it, but that's not the issue here

the issue here is an organized effort by a small cabal to run the country as their private fiefdom

Soundbounder
03-28-2011, 04:19 PM
Offhand, know how many times Bill O'reilly was audited by the IRS during the Clinton years?
O'Reilly spent the first half of the Clinton years working for Inside Edition. If he got audited, it was because of his questionable tax returns, not because of some make-believe clout he carried against the Clintons.

O'Reilly is pretty loose with the facts surrounding himself. He still can't give a straight story about what town he grew up in, his Peabody Award, his fathers occupation, or his original views about the Iraq Invasion. I'm going to toss this IRS hounded O'Reilly because of his opposition to Clinton story in the same BS file.

Ian McColgin
03-28-2011, 04:43 PM
Back on the issue - Nutshell is that Prof. Cronon has been required under a very broad Wisconsin law to produce his emails. This is a very broad interpretation of the already broad law, since Cronon has no regulatory, law making, or law enforcing power. The tedious demand was openly made as a means of intimidation that a state university professor would publish an essay criticizing the governor's late actions.

Soundbounder
03-28-2011, 04:51 PM
Back on the issue - Nutshell is that Prof. Cronon has been required under a very broad Wisconsin law to produce his emails. This is a very broad interpretation of the already broad law, since Cronon has no regulatory, law making, or law enforcing power. The tedious demand was openly made as a means of intimidation that a state university professor would publish an essay criticizing the governor's late actions.There is a good Paul Krugman column today discussing this issue.

Ian McColgin
03-28-2011, 05:20 PM
The request is for any emails containing the words: "Republican, Scott Walker, recall, collective bargaining, AFSCME, WEAC, rally, union, Alberta Darling, Randy Hopper, Dan Kapanke, Rob Cowles, Scott Fitzgerald, Sheila Harsdorf, Luther Olsen, Glenn Grothman, Mary Lazich, Jeff Fitzgerald, Marty Beil, or Mary Bell."

How'd you like to respond to a legal demand that you go through your emails finding items of a list like this. My own inclination would be to point out that the state computer system holds all they are entiteled to look at so go in and look yourself. Which is a dangerous offer since, as happened once to me in a minor state purge attempt, stuff may be taken out of context and even, if you don't have hard copy to proove their lies, be changed as they plough along. These attempts are never about anything except politics. Which ought to be reserved for politicians.

perldog007
03-28-2011, 05:24 PM
Definitely sounds like a hatchet job.

wardd
03-28-2011, 05:25 PM
why is it you hardly if ever hear of such shenanigans originating from the left?

perldog007
03-28-2011, 05:26 PM
why is it you hardly if ever hear of such shenanigans originating from the left?

Because you only follow left wing media

wardd
03-28-2011, 05:30 PM
Because you only follow left wing media

specifics from any media?

perldog007
03-28-2011, 05:35 PM
specifics from any media?

Google is your friend and I even gave you a link for death threats against Republicans in Wisconsin. The treatment of the professor is, at first blush, hitting below the belt could be much worse than that for all we know. Looks like intimidation as Ian mentioned might be some kind of fishing expedition to make an "enemies list" which IMO would be even lower.

Virtue and altruism is hard to find on either side of this dust-up. It's about money and power for both sides and it's ugly all around.

wardd
03-28-2011, 05:38 PM
Google is your friend and I even gave you a link for death threats against Republicans in Wisconsin. The treatment of the professor is, at first blush, hitting below the belt could be much worse than that for all we know. Looks like intimidation as Ian mentioned might be some kind of fishing expedition to make an "enemies list" which IMO would be even lower.

Virtue and altruism is hard to find on either side of this dust-up. It's about money and power for both sides and it's ugly all around.

this thread is not about death threats, it is about an organized political effort at state level to push an agenda for the privileged

open the bilge forum and click "post new thread" and type in "death threats"

perldog007
03-28-2011, 05:52 PM
this thread is not about death threats, it is about an organized political effort at state level to push an agenda for the privileged

open the bilge forum and click "post new thread" and type in "death threats" Just because you don't want to acknowledge it doesn't mean it's irrelevant. You want to make this one sided but there are specific threats of violence involved. That and other tactics which arguably fall outside peaceful protest are going to generate a response.

I'm privileged because of AFSCME, posted on that before. The people in my neighborhood who have to support that whether they want to or not ain't rich. Prohibiting public employees here from Union Membership would stop the involuntary flow of money from the wallets of taxpayers into Union coffers.

Yes, corporations do lobby but consumers aren't bound to buy their products by law in most cases. You do have to pay your taxes and Unions take a cut with dues and they do lobby. The taxpayers get no choice in the matter.

Some measures taken by the pro-labor forces are admirable, recall petitions are a great idea. It's working within the system. Trying to shut down government, death threats, obstructionism by leaving the state - not so much. Would that it were all the activities were peaceful and legal I would have zero empathy for the move on the professor. Still doesn't justify it, but when you take the gloves off they's off.

wardd
03-28-2011, 06:06 PM
Just because you don't want to acknowledge it doesn't mean it's irrelevant. You want to make this one sided but there are specific threats of violence involved. That and other tactics which arguably fall outside peaceful protest are going to generate a response.

I'm privileged because of AFSCME, posted on that before. The people in my neighborhood who have to support that whether they want to or not ain't rich. Prohibiting public employees here from Union Membership would stop the involuntary flow of money from the wallets of taxpayers into Union coffers.

Yes, corporations do lobby but consumers aren't bound to buy their products by law in most cases. You do have to pay your taxes and Unions take a cut with dues and they do lobby. The taxpayers get no choice in the matter.

Some measures taken by the pro-labor forces are admirable, recall petitions are a great idea. It's working within the system. Trying to shut down government, death threats, obstructionism by leaving the state - not so much. Would that it were all the activities were peaceful and legal I would have zero empathy for the move on the professor. Still doesn't justify it, but when you take the gloves off they's off.

and if you don't like it you're free to quit your job and make it in the private sector, man up to your principles

Iceboy
03-28-2011, 06:39 PM
Wardd, it is his wife that is the AFSCME member.

Iceboy
03-28-2011, 06:45 PM
Ian, it really isn't that onerous for the good Doctor to supply those emails. He won't have to do a thing actually. U of W IT department will do it in about 15 minutes. These FOIC requests are being done by both sides everyday here now. What university policy says is if you don't want it made public don't use state resources to say it. It isn't that difficult. The state sent an email to every employee at the start of this mess reminding everyone of the open records laws and restating that state resources are not to be used for political purposes. The saddest thing in all of this is going to be the loss of some very competent and talented people on both sides due to their inability to abide by the rules when using state resources.

perldog007
03-28-2011, 06:52 PM
and if you don't like it you're free to quit your job and make it in the private sector, man up to your principles

My wife works in a closed shop where she has to pay dues whether she joins the Union or not, she cannot collectively bargain but AFSCME does lobby. Oddly enough, she is well taken care of and we didn't have to export legislators or threaten to cut anybody's head off to get the benefits she enjoys. Nobody called our politicians tyrants or Hitler when the agreement was made.

Nobody got this bent at Jimmy Carter either. A whole lot of violent rhetoric and getting people worked up but since it's not the Tea party nobody on the left is going to object. This democrat does. It's madness. Nobody said they couldn't bargain for salary, or vote in different legislators and make a new law. The thug tactics are totally uncalled for. Heroes my beautiful fuzzy rump.

Disruptive lawless bullies is more like it. I have no end of respect for the people working on the recall, that's the right thing to do. The people shutting down the capitol and acting like thugs? No respect at all. YMMV

wardd
03-28-2011, 07:03 PM
Wardd, it is his wife that is the AFSCME member.

then he should divorce her

Iceboy
03-28-2011, 07:21 PM
Well, there went any chance of having a civil discussion with you. have a good night.

johnw
03-28-2011, 07:38 PM
Could be conflicting laws here, since the wording of the FOIA request is worded so broadly. There's a law called the Family Educational Rights and Privacy Act that seems to indicate that any communication he had with students that comes up under this can't be released to anyone but the student. Since he is a history professor, it's his job to communicate with students about their papers, and if, for example, students have written about anything relating to "Republicans" it would come under the request.

Now, perl, you know two wrongs don't make a right, so why try to change the subject? The fact that other people have done wrong by the Wisconsin Republicans doesn't in any way justify what they're trying to do to Cronon, nor does it have anything to do with what Cronon is doing.

perldog007
03-28-2011, 08:01 PM
Could be conflicting laws here, since the wording of the FOIA request is worded so broadly. There's a law called the Family Educational Rights and Privacy Act that seems to indicate that any communication he had with students that comes up under this can't be released to anyone but the student. Since he is a history professor, it's his job to communicate with students about their papers, and if, for example, students have written about anything relating to "Republicans" it would come under the request.

Now, perl, you know two wrongs don't make a right, so why try to change the subject? The fact that other people have done wrong by the Wisconsin Republicans doesn't in any way justify what they're trying to do to Cronon, nor does it have anything to do with what Cronon is doing.

Never said it was justified, just understandable that there's going to be some push back. Regrettable but when the gloves come off it can be hard to get them back on. Like I said I think it's a hatchet job, but I don't think it's a stretch to explain why it's going down like that. Ugly business when everybody wants money and power but tries to portray their side as altruistic and demonize the opposition. Both sides are doing that IMO.

perldog007
03-28-2011, 08:03 PM
then he should divorce her

Why? because she and I differ on some things? Is it her fault that she has to pay dues to work there? Did she make the rule? Is she shutting down a capitol or making death threats? You haven't sold me.

Now you, I would dump in a heartbeat. ;)

wardd
03-28-2011, 08:04 PM
Never said it was justified, just understandable that there's going to be some push back. Regrettable but when the gloves come off it can be hard to get them back on. Like I said I think it's a hatchet job, but I don't think it's a stretch to explain why it's going down like that. Ugly business when everybody wants money and power but tries to portray their side as altruistic and demonize the opposition. Both sides are doing that IMO.

sounds like you're justifying it to me

so some republican not involved in the immediate situation can conduct a witch hunt against someone else not involved in the immediate situation?

johnw
03-28-2011, 08:07 PM
Never said it was justified, just understandable that there's going to be some push back. Regrettable but when the gloves come off it can be hard to get them back on. Like I said I think it's a hatchet job, but I don't think it's a stretch to explain why it's going down like that. Ugly business when everybody wants money and power but tries to portray their side as altruistic and demonize the opposition. Both sides are doing that IMO.

Oh, Bull. This is not a pushback against anything Cronon has done, and has nothing to do with anything he's done. If they can't tell the difference between thugs and scholars, they've got no business in public office.

Chip-skiff
03-28-2011, 09:02 PM
Republicans tend to attack educators who express anything beyond power-worshipping BS. My wife published a scholarly book arguing that commercial grazing on arid public lands was costing taxpayers more, in money and biological capital, than it yielded.

In response, the Republican president of the state senate actually drafted a bill to shut down the college where she teaches. He ended up with egg on his face for his brutal stupidity, but the cowardly waffling of the university president and the bullying of rich donors and trustees definitely made an impression.

They're trying to intimidate him. Period.

perldog007
03-28-2011, 09:31 PM
Republicans tend to attack educators who express anything beyond power-worshipping BS. My wife published a scholarly book arguing that commercial grazing on arid public lands was costing taxpayers more, in money and biological capital, than it yielded.

In response, the Republican president of the state senate actually drafted a bill to shut down the college where she teaches. He ended up with egg on his face for his brutal stupidity, but the cowardly waffling of the university president and the bullying of rich donors and trustees definitely made an impression.

They're trying to intimidate him. Period.

I'm not so sure the action does not involve a fishing expedition for an "enemies list". Certainly the reds are trying to bully this guy but that often backfires.

perldog007
03-28-2011, 09:32 PM
Oh, Bull. This is not a pushback against anything Cronon has done, and has nothing to do with anything he's done. If they can't tell the difference between thugs and scholars, they've got no business in public office.

Killing the messenger, not without historical precedence.

wardd
03-28-2011, 09:38 PM
I'm not so sure the action does not involve a fishing expedition for an "enemies list". Certainly the reds are trying to bully this guy but that often backfires.

you just don't get it

not all their tactics will work and the stockholders of the republican party know this, but they keep coming

they will chip away at the rock until it is rubble

perldog007
03-28-2011, 09:54 PM
you just don't get it

not all their tactics will work and the stockholders of the republican party know this, but they keep coming

they will chip away at the rock until it is rubble

...the best laid plans of mice and men...

wardd
03-28-2011, 10:00 PM
...the best laid plans of mice and men...

it is working for them splendidly, look at the economy and the distribution of wealth and don't forget the tax cuts

perldog007
03-28-2011, 10:03 PM
it is working for them splendidly, look at the economy and the distribution of wealth and don't forget the tax cuts

Ever heard of watergate? Not all republican plots work out. Ever read "Will"? Some republican plots are incredibly naive and boneheaded. Don't take my word for it, read G. Gordon Liddy's book. In fact his Novel "The Monkey Handlers" is a decent read. My mom hated the man but enjoyed both of those books. You are pretty far to the right of her political views.....

wardd
03-28-2011, 10:08 PM
Ever heard of watergate? Not all republican plots work out. Ever read "Will"? Some republican plots are incredibly naive and boneheaded. Don't take my word for it, read G. Gordon Liddy's book. In fact his Novel "The Monkey Handlers" is a decent read. My mom hated the man but enjoyed both of those books. You are pretty far to the right of her political views.....

still you don't get it

it's like the house take, you don't get it all at once but keep it flying from all directions and eventually you will get close to most all of it

if they succeed 1 in 10 times , each 10 tries gains the 10% of what they are after

perldog007
03-28-2011, 10:12 PM
still you don't get it

it's like the house take, you don't get it all at once but keep it flying from all directions and eventually you will get close to most all of it

if they succeed 1 in 10 times , each 10 tries gains the 10% of what they are after

I doubt that Scott Walker is going to get out of his pickle by going after people writing articles, no matter what the percentage, Not sure what you're trying to get at. I agree it looks like a political hatchet job, I just don't rate retaliatory political chicanery as being all that effective. You can fool all of the people some of the time....

wardd
03-28-2011, 10:15 PM
I doubt that Scott Walker is going to get out of his pickle by going after people writing articles, no matter what the percentage, Not sure what you're trying to get at. I agree it looks like a political hatchet job, I just don't rate retaliatory political chicanery as being all that effective. You can fool all of the people some of the time....

it's not walker, he is doing the bidding of the republican stockholders and is only one rep gov trying this at this time and he got some of what he wanted

remember the 10%

bobbys
03-28-2011, 10:23 PM
then he should divorce her.

No reason to get personal.

perldog007
03-28-2011, 10:26 PM
.

No reason to get personal. get? how is he going to get personal? When you're there your there and when you live there then it's home ;)

perldog007
03-28-2011, 10:28 PM
it's not walker, he is doing the bidding of the republican stockholders and is only one rep gov trying this at this time and he got some of what he wanted

remember the 10%

Holy Shniekies! A politician doing the bidding of backers??? Are you ( covering me with feces) ? Does Oprah know about this because this is important!

wardd
03-28-2011, 10:33 PM
i'm finished with this

you're just running it in circles

perldog007
03-28-2011, 10:43 PM
i'm finished with this

you're just running it in circles Now that's funny right there, I don't care who you are.

mikefrommontana
03-29-2011, 10:02 AM
Alas that the professor did not author and post his blog from a personal computer not associated with the UW system. Of course he must have been operating under that terribly antiquated notion of "academic freedom". Yep, don't need that folks.

Certainly somebody looking to build an "enemies list". At least the left remembers McCarthy.

wardd
03-29-2011, 10:05 AM
A free enterprise think tank in Michigan -- backed by some of the biggest names in national conservative donor circles -- has made a broad public records request to at least three in-state universities with departments that specialize in the study of labor relations, seeking all their emails regarding the union battle in Wisconsin, Gov. Scott Walker (R-WI) and MSNBC's Rachel Maddow, TPM has learned.

According to professors subject to the request, filed under Michigan's version of the Freedom Of Information Act, the request is extremely rare in academic circles. An employee at the think tank requesting the emails tells TPM they're part of an investigation into what labor studies professors at state schools in Michigan are saying about the situation in Madison, Wisc., the epicenter of the clashes between unions and Republican-run state governments across the Midwest.

One professor subject to the FOIA described it as anti-union advocates "going after folks they don't agree with."


.....................

David W Pratt
03-29-2011, 10:47 AM
You know, that list of search terms wouldn't retrieve one email from my 'puter.

Ian McColgin
03-29-2011, 11:54 AM
If mikefrommontana took but a moment to check [#43] he would have seen that neither http://scholarcitizen.williamcronon.net/about-this-blog/ nor http://www.williamcronon.net/ is part of the state site http://www.geography.wisc.edu/faculty/cronon/.

This is the sort of shoddy fact-free reporting we expect from Fox news, not from a WoodenBoat Forum correspondent.

perldog007
03-29-2011, 11:57 AM
I read Mike as stating that the hardware was possibly owned by the state, not the domains. To me it looks like Mike is supporting the professor.

Chip-skiff
03-29-2011, 12:07 PM
The person who filed the FOIA request works in the governor's office. If you'd like to contact him directly, here's his e-mail address:

stephan.thompson@wisconsin.gov

I've already sent several e-mails to the Republican party chair and will send regular messages to Mr. Thompson with my response to his action, which was likely undertaken on the orders of the governor.

Might as well inflict the fire & brimstone on the most deserving party, eh?

update: Thompson's e-mail address seems to be shut down right now, but I'll keep trying.

update on the update: the governor's e-mail is also unavailable. Why am I smiling?

wardd
03-29-2011, 12:29 PM
The person who filed the FOIA request works in the governor's office. If you'd like to contact him directly, here's his e-mail address:

stephan.thompson@wisconsin.gov

I've already sent several e-mails to the Republican party chair and will send regular messages to Mr. Thompson with my response to his action, which was likely undertaken on the orders of the governor.

Might as well inflict the fire & brimstone on the most deserving party, eh?

update: Thompson's e-mail address seems to be shut down right now, but I'll keep trying.

update on the update: the governor's e-mail is also unavailable. Why am I smiling?

file a foia request for their new email addy

mikefrommontana
03-29-2011, 01:02 PM
If mikefrommontana took but a moment to check [#43] he would have seen that neither http://scholarcitizen.williamcronon.net/about-this-blog/ nor http://www.williamcronon.net/ is part of the state site http://www.geography.wisc.edu/faculty/cronon/.

This is the sort of shoddy fact-free reporting we expect from Fox news, not from a WoodenBoat Forum correspondent.

My apologies Ian. I do support the professor on this.

How can they file an FOIA request on information posted to private servers? Are they saying that if you use a public computer (such as a library) that people can serve a FOIA request on you? That, in combination with the think tank requests in Michigan, rather points up a witch hunt/shakedown designed to intimidate all dissidents to Walker (or any other of the draconian governors).

Shades of a land not that far away, not that long ago.

wardd
03-29-2011, 01:14 PM
republicans are so used to dealing with their own, telling lies have no consequences

so when dealing with thinking people they tend to get thuggish

and don't tell me i'm wrong when "keep your government hands off my Medicare", "death panel", "unamerican attitudes in congress" "obama was born in kenya" pass for political discussion

when they deny science

when barton can question chu about plate tectonics and oil, and brag on his web page he stumped a nobel laureate

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=symYfq51aho
http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/images/barton-tweet-400.jpg


republicans seem to prefer actors to intellectuals