View Full Version : The best of classic and modern?
08-10-2003, 01:56 AM
I am looking for the perfect boat. Now, I know, you'll tell me that no two people want the same boat, and no boat can be all things to all people. But thatís ok. I'm stuck up. I don't care at all about other people. I want MY perfect boat.
You know, the one that looks, feels, and creeks like a classic boat. Perhaps it's a topsail schooner? perhaps not. Perhaps.... just perhaps, it has a huge bowsprit for a plethora of head sails, with a big net below, to fall into and watch the sea go by.
It can sleep at least 3 couples.
It points and tracks well. Tacks on a dime. Sails in a wisper. Has a shallow (sub 6') draft.
There's room for a real, honest to goodness SHOWER below decks, even if it is operated by a foot pump (because pressure waters just another thing that breaks too often, and needs to much maintenance)
So who am I to possess such a masterpiece of sailing art?
Well, I just finished my first year of boat ownership. I've got 30 days on the water, and have rebuilt a few parts of my boat.
My next boat is probably another plastic fantastic lover, to liveaboard and cruise the Left Coast, But I'm getting sea time. I will soon (soon being a relatively word) have my OUPV, and then, I would really like to have a classic yacht to take people out on. But this classic yacht should have a modern underbody, and be as seaworthy as anything else, because before she is some clients play thing, she will by my home, and I will sail her to all points I can. I aim to one day circle the cape.
Now, I mention this in some "sailing" forums, and people tell me to forget it. Nothing with a gaff rig, or more than 1 mast can point. get a plastic sloop and get on with it. Well... I've got a plastic sloop, and I love her to death, but when I was 10, I sailed aboard a turn of the century ketch, and the memory of lying in the net under the bowsprit, as a pod of dolphins came to play, on the way to Catalina is something that will be with me forever. I want a boat that to be aboard is that type of experience. I think there can be nothing greater than to be permanently etched into someoneís mind like that.
You people are into wooden boats. You are the hopeless romantics I am accused of being, with the practicality, handiness, and hard determination to make it happen. So where do I start? What boat can I find that is like this? Practical and seaworthy, but romantic, classic, and of a truly unforgettable nature?
Thank you for your help.
08-10-2003, 05:31 AM
Go and speak to a designer.
Read 'A Unit of Water and a Unit of Time'by Douglas Whynot - this book about designer Joel White deals with the design process for clients of large boats (one over 50 feet) made of wood and with modern 'underbodies'. Its not exactly specific about all details but gives an overview of the process.
Do what the rest of us do - get a folder and start putting in it what you find interesting along the way -start to sellect what you like and cull-out what you don't. Do your studies of the various designers (on the internet or buy their study plans or books) you will find one you like, I promise.
08-10-2003, 05:35 AM
One of the Appledores was for sale in the last WB. Good, rugged, simple boats that would fit. I believe it's currently on the Lakes.
08-10-2003, 08:37 AM
For more on Herb Smith, owner/builder of the Appledores (which draw a bit more than you want) and who's done pretty much what you describe, get his book and contact him here.
One of the nicest things that he does here in Boothbay Harbor is give free trips to local kids who work as as summer help in local businesses. Most of them work very hard to give good service and love sailing on EASTWIND during day's off to see the seals, whales and porpoises. Earlier this summer an offshore whalewatch headboat sighted 60 humpback whales and sonar-scanned 130. :eek: :D
[ 08-10-2003, 09:55 AM: Message edited by: rbgarr ]
08-10-2003, 12:20 PM
"....in some "sailing" forums... people tell me to forget it. Nothing with a gaff rig, or more than 1 mast can point. Get a plastic sloop and get on with it...."
It never ceases to amaze me how thoroughly most people have bought into the whole "high aspect, single stick, huge headsail/small main, reverse transom, flat sheer, straightedge bow, high topsides gospel" that racing rules, boatshow interiors and ease of construction have foisted onto the "modern" sailing public. A diminishingly small advantage in design when racing around the bouys on a weekend has been accepted as the "only" choice for a ANY sailboat whether used for daysailing on a lake or cruising to the South Pacific. It saddens me to think of all the people who have been needlessly "turned off" to offshore sailing simply because they thought they had no choice but to bash themselves to pieces sailing on their ear aboard some guppy-bellied, feather-weight, roller-furled high aspect rig that wants double-reefing and most of it's jib rolled up as soon as they hit open water. How's your vaunted "windward ability" then? I guarantee you that NOBODY who ever goes to sea in a "Yacht-Fisherman" type schooner, or a "Ticondera" style ketch, or even a proper, wholesome cutter, will ever "choose" to go to sea again aboard the typical over-enginered and under built tupperware toy boats on the market today...
08-10-2003, 02:38 PM
Nice rant, Art! Boats and women... advertisers and fashion hold more sway regarding styles, shapes, etc., than need be the case. Too bad the unthinking perpetuate their prejudices on others.
08-10-2003, 03:15 PM
That is a fine rant Art. But to be fair, some glass boats are worthy to the purpose of going offshore. I think of some of Albergs and Rhodes' CCA designs. And the modern, marconi cutter or sloop rigs, in their less extreme incarnations, make sense. With roller reefing and jiffy reefing in the main they are easily handled when alone.
But your points are well taken. And a hoot, to boot. :D
[ 08-10-2003, 05:30 PM: Message edited by: ishmael ]
jbarros, when you are ready, come talk to me. ;) What you are describing is the type of design work I do.
Herreshoff, Crowninshield, Roue, Burgess, et al, are the classic forms to use as a starting point, then apply modern technology for improved creature comforts and strength, and lightly dust the rig & deck arrangement to better suit your sailing style and modern gear but retain the look and feel of a classic. What you are asking for is quite reasonable and not at all difficult to achieve. You are, of yourse, asking for a custom or semi-custom boat, so it will be a bit more expensive than a production-line tupperware model.
If customizable interior, classic lines production 'glass is more suited to your pocketbook than full-blown wood one-off, check out Gozzard Yachts in Ontario, Canada. They build yachts based on Herreshoff's Mobjack and Bounty hulls, rigged for distance cruising. They are fine boats. If a custom wood-composite is your cup of tea, talk to John Steele at Covey Island Boatworks in Nova Scotia.
Everybody else - especially Scot - is this too blatantly self promotion? If so, I'll delete.
08-10-2003, 09:04 PM
I'm just wondering if the original poster has a lazy half a million lying around smile.gif
Topsail schooner? 3 couples? SHOWER?
Wash yer mouth out with tar!
'Modern classics' are an interesting albeit tautological concept. However, there's a fine line between a modern classic and a charicature. Personally I can't bear boats with trailboards and/or (god help us) figureheads unless they're commercial or naval square riggers and at least a century old. Yachts with lanyards, brigantine rigs and stern cabins really get up my nose.
But then if someone wants to be a Disney pirate then they're not doing any harm. Get a hook and an eyepatch and go for it smile.gif
08-11-2003, 12:17 AM
excellent rant, Art. excellent.It would truly be complete if only someone had said " well what do YOU know about it" then we could chime in with " he's got three trillion sea miles under his belt and just knows ,allright?" :D
Tasteful self promotion Michael(If that's what it was and no, I'm not offended at all)
Both posts plus the original bring to mind that GORGEOUS Bounty( it was a Bounty was it not?) that our own mmd had a hand in . daresay you could get a shower in somewhere in her. a local glass one has a bath in it
Now where, I wonder, would we find a photo of that particular piece of boat porn?
John, you would find photos of "Elsie" on Covey Island Boatworks' website, such as the one below. My involvement with this boat was quite small - I only did a few drawings for the interior arrangement and exterior views. Other forumites such as Tad Roberts had a much greater involvement in her and deserve the limelite, not me. I'm just the rah-rah voice at the back of the room.
BTW, John Steele has told me that the sailing characteristics of this boat are nothing short of remarkable. In a delivery from Nova Scotia to Rhode Island last October and her return this spring, she romped through two 200-mile-per-day days, and in a subsequent day-sail out of Newport for a photo session kept everyone in her cockpit dry in a reach to weather in 35 knots of wind. He tells me that when you tack on the wind the acceleration is like that of a dinghy.
Oh, yes... she has two showers.
[ 08-11-2003, 01:51 AM: Message edited by: mmd ]
08-11-2003, 12:53 AM
see, you sets your bait.....and you waits.. and....
Thanks Michael. that is a perfectly magnificent boat.
I know you were just fishing for boat porn, John, but how can you resist rising to the bait when it is angling for such a lovely species as a Herreshoff Bounty?
08-11-2003, 01:58 AM
WOW. what a response. Thanks.
As for the Gozzard, I was just out sailing on one (a 31, which is 35 feet. not sure I understand that part) 2 weekends ago. Fun boat. Certainly not a race boat, but fun. Everything a Catalina 270 would be if it werent built to a price tag. ;)
Still, not realy what I'm looking for, although the details are all nice.
MMD, I hope to be ready in 3 years. That leaves me a second to plan ;) But I will remember you. smile.gif
The Appledore's are beutifull. I have them bookmarked, and printed out for my paper folder. smile.gif
Aaramas. Dont worry about me. I just wanna be Jack Sparrow when I grow up. ;) As for a Brigadine rig. I love the look and the "roamnce" of square rigs.... yhea, but I dont always want to be dependant on crew, so we'll save the only square sail for perhaps a topsail. What, pray do tell, is wrong with figgureheads and trailboards? As for the hook, Captain Hook, of Captain hook's Sport Fishing already has one, and as for the Disney pirates, I do belive that in her day, the Columbia did fairly well for herself, so stick that in your pipe and smoke it. (but alas, I'd not want anything like her, for along with everything good from her day, she's got most of the bad stuff too) So..... (and I know you've all been waiting for this) Whadayou know about it?!?!?
So now, everyone can chant: "he's got three trillion sea miles under his belt and just knows ,allright?"
I'm not sure what being a "disney priate" entails, but if it means wanting to have "feel" for the past, without having the troubles, than guilty as charged, feel free to mock at will ;)
In all seriousness, I do apreciate the swift replies. Thank you all so very much. smile.gif
08-11-2003, 05:07 AM
"... to be fair, some glass boats are worthy to the purpose of going offshore..."
I agree completely, Jack. I've been lucky enough to have sailed quite a few well concieved, modern boats made of various of the "other" building materials out there, (yep, even fiberglass! ;) ) that I'd be happy to sail again anytime, anywhere in the world. (Well "almost" anywhere... I've had my fill of ice on the decks...)
But I've also delivered too many boats, built and marketed for the bareboat charter trade mostly, that seem to have been designed for weekend "club racers" on deck and "Better Homes and Gardens" down below. Hey, I guess you can't really blame 'em... That's what the public seems to want. But a vast, cavernous interior fitted out with three or four staterooms, three or four heads, "Island style" double beds instead of proper seaberths, absolutely huge, uselessly curvacious "U-shaped" dinettes with tables that won't stow away and don't even have fiddles to make their use of the space they waste worthwhile, all tend to make one "cynical". Add to that the grossly oversized, roller furling genoas, minimalist reefing capability on the main, (or horror of horrors, "in the mast" roller reefing :eek: )huge, open cockpits, "sailing dingy" underbodies and precious few hard securing points for teathers or jacklines and one wonders whether the people who draw these things have ever been on boats that weren't sailing in the Chesapeake Bay on a quiet summer evening... Or more likely it seems, still tied to the dock! But hey, that's just my opinion, biased by a jaundiced eye towards anything that doesn't make sense offshore. For the average "yachtsman" today, who's boat spends fifty weeks of the year tied up to the dock while he slaves away to make the payments and which will probably never leave inshore or near coastal waters, and which also usually, if not always, anchors or stays in marinas each night, a floating condo with all the latest "go-fast" gear on deck makes sense. I guess...
But to hear these boats being touted as "passagemakers" or "cruising boats" seems disingenuous at best and almost criminal at worst. They're really just a kind of a cross between glorified daysailors and "nautically themed", floating, mobile homes. I think an awfull lot people give up their dreams of "sailing away someday" after their first few experiences trying to take unsuitable vessels into waters where their "marketers" never anticipated 'em going. And the sad thing is, having never experienced a proper sea boat in it's element, offshore, they'll never know what they've missed...
08-12-2003, 03:10 PM
If I had the bucks here's where I would go (for that Old/modern experience).
Originally posted by jbarros:
Now, I mention this in some "sailing" forums, and people tell me to forget it. Nothing with a gaff rig, or more than 1 mast can point. Got a question here. It seems like I've heard that a Gaff rigged boat with a Tops'l will point almsost as well as a high aspect rig. Is this true?
Ever sailed on an Ingrid 38 Art? they always struck me as looking like an excellent passage making boat for a couple.
The hell with a new Hinckley, I like my 50 year old one just fine...plus it's a few mil cheaper...
I went on a short overnight cruise this weekend. Sailed 18 miles to the island and didn't have to tack or jibe once...we averaged 6.2 knots for that leg of the journey.
Darn I love a good sail!
But that said, it works great for this lake, but might need a few changes if I was heading off shore.
Art I couldn't agree more about some of these different boats and what their uses are. Some people need a boat that is good for sitting at the dock/yacht club, and others need something that is designed to sail.
I do think that the majority of sailboats are used as day boats though.
Alan D. Hyde
08-12-2003, 04:24 PM
The best shower on a cruising boat is a deck wash pump hose slung overhead and used on deck. Why go below in a small cramped space when the sun, the wind, and the water are all topside?
Refreshing algidity. A pleasant interval, filled with pleasing sights and sounds. If you're a prude, or if others are too near, wear a loose old pair of swim trunks.
Use Kirk's Castile Soap (or Dove for the ladies) and the biodegradable suds will wash out the scuppers and over the side.
[ 08-12-2003, 05:25 PM: Message edited by: Alan D. Hyde ]
Roger that, Alan. I've even got a special bracket to hold the sprayer...she's 5' tall and cooks too! ;)
Edited to add: But, I use Orpine. :D
[ 08-12-2003, 05:43 PM: Message edited by: Donn ]
08-12-2003, 05:16 PM
Chad, re the gaff rig. Yes you can potentially point as well as any cruiser with a gaff rig, or at least, you can point as well as the hull it's on will allow you to . I expect to climb all over any Bounty, or Neria( not Elsie though , I would think) but I'd rather have their rig at sea.
08-12-2003, 08:59 PM
Art, you're on a roll! :D
Originally posted by Art Read:
[QBBut I've also delivered too many boats, built and marketed for the bareboat charter trade mostly, that seem to have been designed for weekend "club racers" on deck and "Better Homes and Gardens" down below. Hey, I guess you can't really blame 'em... That's what the public seems to want........ [/QB]It's astonishing how many seemingly smart people fall for the marketing hype of boat salesmen.
Would I be correct in my observation that 90 percent of production boats get used only 10 percent of the year?
Some reasons for this have been mentioned above, but one hardly sees the light - reliable crew.
How many of these wannabe sailors are competant sailors and comfortable companions to retain people who want to spend time with them?
In truth, so many boatowners have been sold a myth fostered by the morgage lenders and related parisites that the pastime of "yachting" has become one of consumption, rather than seamanship.
Being confined on a vessel with such a person is an ordeal not willingly repeated.
Got to this a bit late ...... great rant!!
Went to the Sydney Boat Show last week.... three woodies in a sea of snot and aluminium. The woodies were two Italian Riva style runabouts and a rather curious solid teak motor launch built in Burma. As far as could see not one Australian wooden boat.
The sailboats generally fitted into your rant description with the exception of the Kay Cottee 56. Has a retracting keel that can deal with the six foot Glass but nice, this lady has sailed single handed roud the world and knows her stuff - but serious big bucks www.kaycottee.com (http://www.kaycottee.com) .
A few years ago I was talking to a very experienced Frenchwoman sailor and helping her re-do some stuff on a timber boat she had purchased to sail back to Europe. She and her sister had done a lot of delivery work on one of the largest French snot boatbuilders and she was highly critical of their seakeeping abilities to the extent that she didn't want to do it any more.
The power boats at the SBS were generally quite ghastly, and as floating 'gin palaces' permantly nailed to the dockside is about all they are good for. The selling technique was great... twenty something blondes with all the right lumps were 'hello sailoring' any half baked prospect that made the mistake of pausing to gape at these monstrosities. I have not otherwise found in recent times that I have been all that attractive to twenty year old blondes.
As a hopeless romantic on the topic of wooden boats the virtual complete absence of any commercial offerings to the market in wood is profoundly depressing. If by and large, we on this forum get it, how come it escapes the rest of the world ?
Qualify as a rant?
08-12-2003, 10:58 PM
Originally posted by mmd:
<snip> ... "tells me that when you tack on the wind the acceleration is like that of a dinghy."
jbarros did ask for the perfect boat Michael, ... a boat that can achieve hurtle speed.
jbarros did also request, " must sleep at least 3". I've seen entire crews asleep during dinghy races.
08-13-2003, 03:26 AM
"... She and her sister had done a lot of delivery work on one of the largest French snot boatbuilders and she was highly critical of their seakeeping abilities to the extent that she didn't want to do it any more...."
LOL! You don't need to say anymore. I don't, as a rule, mention particular brands or designs when being critical, but I think we're on the same page. 'Less I be accused of "French bashing", most, (but by no means all) of the actual boats in question that I have direct experience in were built right here, by the same company, in the good ole' USA, and there's a very similar, hugely popular, domestic competiter for the same "distinction"...
Tim... Sorry. No experience with "Ingrids". (Not even familiar with 'em, offhand, but a picture might jog my memory...) Probably a "good" thing actually, if that's a boat you're interested in... Perhaps their owners prefer sailing 'em themselves, rathering than paying shmucks like me to carry 'em home for them? ;)
(Noah... The majority of boats today ARE designed for day sailing/marina hopping. And designed well for it. Nothing wrong with that. But this post asked about a suitable design to someday go voyaging aboard. To hear that he was "advised" to forget hundreds of years of offshore experience and "just buy a modern fiberglass sloop and get on with it.." kinda stuck in my craw...)
the Ingrids are a William Atkins design adapted from the old Colin Archer redningskoite boats.
here is a picture of one...its a glass hull (really heavy glass), but you finish it off yourself. I know a guy who built one with all wood decks, cabin trunk, etc...was a real looker. You'da thunk it was a real wood boat unless you knew better smile.gif here is a picture of one:
[ 08-13-2003, 11:08 AM: Message edited by: TimH ]
Yeah Art, I couldn't agree with you more. There are tons about shizzola boats out there not fit for a swimming pool.
I wonder how many boats it takes the average buyer before they find the perfect one?...I also wonder how many get pissed because the first one they are sold is a total piece of crap.
Have a good one,
08-13-2003, 12:07 PM
Noah, to be honest, I wasn't even referring to the Hincly blow boat. This is the baby I would love to own.
08-13-2003, 01:38 PM
Ah, yes... NOW I remember, Tim... Never sailed one, but I've heard good things. The "pedigree" is certainly above reproach. If I remember correctly, the original Archer design was intended as a North Sea rescue vessel after all. Quite a few of 'em still sailing a hundred years on... Can't say much more than that! The boat in the picture certainly looks "wholesome", doesn't it?
Yep, very wholesome. That would be my choice for the best of classic and modern. Their sea-keeping qualities are world reknown, they are strongly put together, look great, and best of all are pretty inexpensive when compared to what I would consider a boat with similar qualities such as Pacific Seacraft, or Hans Christian. It appears that the one in my earlier post is for sale at the moment for 40k. Too bad I dont have 40k :)There was a nice one at the Everett Marina a few years ago for 65k also. Great boats, great price, and great looks. What more could one ask for? :D
08-13-2003, 05:59 PM
If you squint at the transom of that Hinckley jet runabout you can make out something like 'TR 29" in the lower right corner above the 'swim platform'. This is supposed to stand for Talaria Runabout 29, or something like, as though to put people in mind of a Mercedes model insignia , i.e., "C600".
Hinckley has gone down in my opinion with all their marketing hype, but I hear the boats are still well built.
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