Nav lights for Prairie Islander, revisited...

[NormMessinger]

Some good while ago I raised this question and got definitive responses. Unfortunatly I did not completely understand what was so simple to the respondent. Could you humor me again, please. I understand it in principle but looking at the plethra of light options in the catalouges and trying to concieve a specific wireing diagram gets me bamfuzled.

Ian, on the right, I beleive suggested a tricolor light at the top of the mast for sailing. One lamp, three colors saves juice. I understant that even though it is usually diagramed thusly:
http://www.ngpc.state.ne.us/boating/sail.gif
Easy enough til I start the engine. Now I'm required to do this:
http://www.ngpc.state.ne.us/boating/class1-2.gif

It looks like the red and green at the bow will be the same for both power and sail. Where does the all around white on the stern go to prevent harm to night vision?

Can an anchor light serve as the all around white?

Does anyone have a wireing diagram for a small sailboat that I could buy borrow beg or steal that would clear this up for me?

Since I raise and lower the mast often it would take some noodling to make the connection at the tabernacle.

Thoughts?

Thanks.

--Norm

[Meerkat]

Norm;

http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/commerce/command/ExecMacro/west_advisor.d2w/show_advisor?fn=522b1.htm&store_num=9

USCG requirements by boat type and length with pictures.

Sailboats don't have an all-around white requirement except at the masthead at anchor. This can also be used as a "steaming light" if your boat is less then 40'.

You can click on "West Advisor" on http://www.westmarine.com/ for a lot more info on all sorts of topics, including electricals.

[NormMessinger]

redface.gif :confused:

Yes but....

Okay, one thing at at time: Where is the masthead?

--Norm

[Jonathan Kabak]

Norm,

This is me paraphrasing the rules with extra explainations:

A vessel underway ie not connected to land (anchored, moored, aground) but not making way (not using an engine) shall display a red light with an arc of 112.5 degrees from dead ahead to abaft the port beam. Same thing on the starboard side but with a green light. in addition you are required to display a white light with an arc of 135 degrees on the stern.

If you add up 112.5 + 112.5 + 135 you get 360 which is why some vessels utilize the tri-colored single unit.

For a vessel that has auxilary propulsion meaning that when you are underway you may be under power or sail or a combination of both (which by the way for the purposes of the rules means that you are a powerboat) you always need the above mentioned lights ie red, green (side lights) and white (stern light).

Now if you are underway and making way (the fancy USCG lingo to say that your engine is in gear propelling the boat) in addition to the running lights (a term used collectively to mean the side lights and stern light, ie red, green and white) You need to display a white light with a visible arc of 225 degrees that is visible from 12.5 degrees abaft the beam forward to 12.5 degrees abaft the beam on the other side. This is the same arc and the display configuration as the combined red and green side lights.

Therefore in conclusion: (gee do you get the sense I write too many research papers?)

Here are some possible wiring configurations:

Wire your red, green and stern light on a single breaker labeled running lights. This makes sure that provided all is in working order, all the necessary lights for being underway at night under sail will come on at the same time. Have a second breaker for the masthead (steaming) light so that when you start to use your engine for propulsion you can turn that on as well.

In regard to anchor lights, they are required to be visable for a complete 360 degree arc. The easiest way to do this I think is a self contained unit that has a spotlight plug on the end which plugs in and gets sent up a halyard with a tag line to keep it from banging into the mast. Have this on yet another breaker.

This configuration is based on the KISS principle. In other words in MHO it is the best set-up for keeping you within the rules.

If there is anything else I can do to help let me know.

Cheers,

Jonathan

PS I will throw my thoughts on gear for Puget Sound or more specifically General Cruising on your other thread.

[Ian McColgin]

I like the tricolour as it's nice and high, but you can't really comply with the lighting regs under power with the tricolour since it puts the red&green above the white steaming light.

Also, you can't really use your anchor light as the steaming light unless you douse the regular stern light - you don't want two white lights, one above the other viewable from astern as that's the configuration for two white steaming lights on larger vessels (which would also show P&S lights on that view).

Get port and starboard lights mounted on the rail or near the bow (or a combo out on a wee platform ahead of the stem) such that the shelds keep you from seeing the light reflected on any gear except maybe the leeward kib sheet. The stern light should be out on the transom, similarly shielded. The steaming light can be up the mast a ways so it doesn't light up the deck and should be invisible from deck except it will glow on the head stay. Some (bad sailors) keep it on to watch the jib.

The white mast head light is just an anchor light.

All that said, I've been known to show the steaming light and the white masthead allaround light when steaming - I shut off the regular stern light then. I don't really like the mounting of my deck level P&S lights as they are on the trunk and both illuminate the deck and bang unwary knees. Sailing I use the tri.

Sometimes there's nothing like a light on your sail to awaken the opposition. Though now and then, when the other guy illuminates you it can wreck your night vision.

I was ghosting Goblin into Osterville years back, big huge schooner mainsail hanging out and we really filled the channel. I was going bouy to bouy on careful DR and starlight night vision and was thus irritated when a clanging motor boat charged up my butt, hung awhile, and then painted the world with a very bright spotlight.

Shutting my eyes I turned around and shouted, "Turn that light out. You're wrecking my night vision."

Out it went.

But a few moments later on it went again. "Turn that *$&%^$@ light out now, you ignorant #*%& !!"

Off it went.

Third time it went on I resolved on vengance and grabbed my own light, dubbed the 'retina searer' as it's 12 million CP aircraft landing light bulb can put your rods and your cones through changes.

And there was a white hull with an orange diagonal stripe near the bow. . .

Later, at Jack's Twin Villa (for those of you who know the area, the Coast Guard Coxswain apologised for the ignorance of his crew memeber. He also said his eyes still hurt.

Heh Heh

[Todd Bradshaw]

I kind of like the deck light/steaming combos from Aqua Signal and Forespar (top of page 667 of the big West Marine catalog). On Prairie Islander, I guess I'd stick it in the space between where the two headsail stays hook onto the mast. The deck light is handy at times when you're putting stuff away in the dark or if you want to briefly light up the sailplan to be sure that an approaching boat sees you and the steaming light is in a position where you won't be blinded by it. We had the Aqua Signal #25404-7 on our trimaran and it worked well. They aren't particularly "classic" looking, but aren't bad.

If you want a fixed anchor light on top of the mast, The Aqua Signal #20040-7 4" pedestal all-around (page 668 - bottom left) works well for the price and the pedestal can be canabalized and modified to some extent. I had one that I just cut the feet off and stuck in a block of wood with some sealant.

Aqua Signal also makes a really good gasketed, multi-conductor (5-pole) plug (#801100-7, page 619 bottom left) that I have used on a couple mast base wiring jobs and had good luck with (fewer of those swearing sessions in the dark with a tiny screwdriver, trying to figure out why something won't light up).

I don't know how congested your regular lakes are, but around here a masthead tricolor is just about useless. They blend into all the background lights and are extremely difficult to see. When a bass boat comes around the point at 50 mph in the dark, he'll probably never see you.

[NormMessinger]

ALL RIGHT! If I can't figure this out now the bulb is too dim to be out alone at night.

And speaking of dim bulbs when I made the mast I put a hole in the top and bottom center to allow for future wiring. Good thinking, huh. Trouble is the mast to tabernacle pin blocks the bottom hole and the tops'l sheave blocks the top. redface.gif :rolleyes:

Thanks much.

--Norm

[Bruce Hooke]

Todd raises a good point, out on open water with waves big enough to hide the hull of a small boat and ships that tower over a small boat a masthead tricolor is excellent because it gets the light up where it can been seen over the waves and where it is more noticeable to someone looking from a long ways away (which is when you want someone on ship to see you!). On the other hand, on smaller bodies of water where the major worry is small boats zipping around, a masthead light is probably a bad idea because the other boats will likely be much closer to you when you need them to see you and at close range a masthead light is above the height at which they are likely to be looking for lights and could blend in with shore lights...

In any case, the deck level bow light is always called for unless the sailboat in question does not have an engine, because you need it when you are under power, so the masthead tri-color can be viewed as an extra to add on for open-water sailing...

[paladin]

or rig them on the cabin top.....

[Dave R]

No intent to hijack this thread but I have been wondering about using high output LED clusters for nav lights. Since I won't have a generator or other onboard charging, I thought LEDs would make sense. They're low current devices and are very unlikely to burn out. It seems to me that they could be embedded in plastic resin which would protect the leads from corrosion. If they needed to be brighter they can be overdriven a bit if they are pulsed.

All the red lights and a lot of the green ones on out stop lights around town are now LEDs. Most of the trucks I see anymore have LED cluster for break lights and of course cars have had LEDs for the center mounted stop lamps for years. Why couldn't it work?

[Meerkat]

Originally posted by Dave R:
No intent to hijack this thread but I have been wondering about using high output LED clusters for nav lights. Something that's crossed my mind too... I think the relevent issues are brigtness and Coast Guard acceptance.

With respect to brigtness, I think nav lights are rated in terms like "visible at 2 nautical miles" and with the new high output leds, I don't think that's much of a problem.

As for the Coast Guard, that's a different kettle of fish entirely. I don't know if you can use non-CG approved lighting or not. Interestingly, oil burning nav lights met the light output requirements (with proper reflectors etc.), but they're no longer legal for any reason that makes sense to me (stupid brain-dead bureaucracy comes to mind...).

Norm, the masthead is the part of the mast that's furtherest away from the boat when the mast is in it's proper upright position ;) T'other end is called the heel smile.gif

[Dave Hadfield]

Then again there's the kerosene lantern hung from the backstay when at anchor (with a stabilizing lanyard to stop it swinging). It probably doesn't satisfy the Coast Guard and it's a bit of a fire risk (small) but it lights up the cockpit and surroundings and no one runs into you -- even if your batteries have browned out.

Kind of nice to sit under, too.

[ 06-04-2002, 07:59 PM: Message edited by: Dave Hadfield ]

[Bill Perkins]

In reference to the anchor light : I don't know how you're equipped Norm , but the small sailboats I've cruised in have not generated or stored enough electricity to run an electric anchor light all night every night in addition to our other needs. Not if the sailing was good . We always used an oil lamp for this , and I still do on my boat .

They're no trouble , the lighting and maintenance of a good lamp is a pleasant ritual ,and they don't blow out , lasting all night unattended . The oil lamp is esthetically superior and has the functional advantage of standing out from the crowd if you're trying to locate your boat from shore .

[Ed Nye]

Norm, It is really pretty simple. The way it is usually explained makes it sound hard.

Either one of your diagrams for the port and starboard lights will work fine. Your choice. On a boat under 26 feet or so, you don't even need lights under sail. Just a big white flashlight to shine on the sails. Under power you do. So ..........

You need the bow lights and 135-degree stern light when sailing.

When under power (prop turning), even with sails up, you need an additional white light. A 225-degree light on a separate switch. Most people put them about 15 or 20 feet up on the front side of the mast. With the stern 135 and the steaming 225 you get your 360 all around white. On little boats like OPAL with a gaff, some (me) have a steaming light mounted on a wood pad to fit the front of the mast and a cord to plug in. I take a bungee cord and do several wraps to hold it in place as high as I can reach.

All the help you are getting is too much. Go look at a Catalina 22 or something. They are legal.

Hope to see you this summer,
Ed

[Art Read]

"On a boat under 26 feet or so, you don't even need lights under sail. Just a big white flashlight to shine on the sails. Under power you do..."

I suppose I used to know this, but I can't recall the specific reg offhand. If a twenty foot sailboat has an auxiliary, (even if not mounted on the transom at the time) are proper running lights REQUIRED to be aboard period, or only if the boat is used when running lights are specified? I suspect it's the former, remembering being made to show the coasties that my running lights worked on a Boston Whaler I got caught running too fast inside the breakwater on as a kid... But I know my Dad's old daysailor didn't have any lights. It was 23 feet and had an outboard, but we only took along a flashlight when we went out for moonlight sails way back when... Did we just "get lucky" that we were never stopped?

I may rig up some lights for my Dark Harbor someday, (20 feet) but it's not high on my "priority list" before launch unless I'm not going to be able to get her registered without 'em. Maybe I'll "forgot" about that removeable engine bracket when I get her inspected...

[Nicholas Carey]

Originally posted by NormMessinger:
Ian, on the right, I beleive suggested a tricolor light at the top of the mast for sailing. One lamp, three colors saves juice.I remember reading something in Ocean Navigator (http://www.oceannavigator.com/index.jsp) by the skipper of a container ship. He recommended that for inshore use you wanted conventional deck-mounted running lights. Why?

Because from the vantage point of the bridge of a big ship, a tricolour masthead light disappears against the background of all the shore clutter (lights). However, the deckmounted nav lights stand out against the dark surface of the water.

He recommended a masthead light for offshore use because it's visible over much longer distances -- the masthead is still visible above the wave crest when the sailboat is down in the trough.

Just another data point.

From the standpoint of a traditional boat, though, the deck-mounted lights add a certain amount of anachronistic technology to the vessel that a masthead tricolour light conceals.

But it is hard to comply with the letter of the rules regarding steaming lights with just a masthead tricolour light.

And if you're regularly stepping/unstepping the mast, the wiring for the tricolour lamp is an issue.

[ 06-05-2002, 02:19 PM: Message edited by: Nicholas Carey ]

[Meerkat]

Originally posted by Dave Hadfield:
Then again there's the kerosene lantern hung from the backstay when at anchor (with a stabilizing lanyard to stop it swinging). It probably doesn't satisfy the Coast Guard and it's a bit of a fire risk (small) but it lights up the cockpit and surroundings and no one runs into you -- even if your batteries have browned out.

Kind of nice to sit under, too.And if you hung it in the bow, it would have been a legal anchor light up until about 5-6 years ago! Those paragons of nautical virtue ;) the Pardeys suggested filling the tank partially with cotten wadding or some such (with a small reduction in burn duration) to prevent sloshing which can cause the lamp to go out.

I wonder if the Pardeys still use oil nav lamps...

[Meerkat]

Norm;

In all this rush about lights, nobody has mentioned the daylight anchor signal - a black ball hung in the rigging.

Although it's claimed that this need not be shown if you're in a designated anchorage, I read a report of an owner being found at fault for not showing it when another boat ran into his in a designated anchorage. Besides, most of the fun and out of the way places to anchor aren't designated anchorages :cool:

There's also a "not under command" signal that can be shown if you leave the helm unattended while under way. Handy for solo folks I guess.

You'll need a yellow "Q" (quarantine) flag too if you are planning to go into a foreign port - or get blown across the border ;) You probably don't need this if you're using the "entry by phone" system mentioned in the "PI comes to Puget Sound" thread, but otherwise you do. Generally flown from the starboard spreader or shroud (along with a courtesy flag of the visited nation).

[ 06-05-2002, 05:42 PM: Message edited by: meerkat ]

[NormMessinger]

Whew! The easy part was building the boat. I figured I\d get the anchor ball and a radar reflector and what not. Need a flag and pennent halyard too. But the puzzle is what to do with all the little strings when the mast comes down. There is quite a bundle already and I've not rigged the tops'l.

We're going to make our first attempt at living on the boat for three nights come this weekend so I'll have full time to consider stuff.

Best wishes, all.

--Norm

[Art Read]

Oh, c'mon! When was the last anybody here REALLY saw anybody but the coasties or the navy using an "anchor" ball outside of a tall ship rendevous?

[John B]

I haven't read the whole thread , just skimmed. I bought a thing called a "davis mega light( or Ultra light)" for an anchor light a few years ago when our dollar was worth more than the canadian!!! and it is GOOD.
cigarette lighter /cord/ low low usage/turns itself on and off with the dawn /dusk. Prevents that middle of the day "DOH" the anchor light is on feeling.
You do have a cigarette lighter fitting don't you?
(silly me , how else will you hook up that laptop/ run the digital camera batteries up/gps /phone lol.)

[PugetSound]

Don't want to torpedoe the whole thread, but I don't think Norm will really be doing all that much cruising at night. There will be plenty of daylight to cruise by and I rather think that "Norm and Company" will be anchored, fed and ready to enjoy the sunset long before the sky begins to turn from light grey to dark gray to black.

Norm, the most important thing to do is to just show up. Everything else will work out.

[Ed Nye]

Art,
Opal didn't even have lights aboard until she was 15 years old. I figured she was't old enough to operate them. In reality, I don't do much/any night sailing. The south sound has too dang many logs floating just at the surface. At night, at 5 knots, they make a heck of a bang.
Ed

[Bill Perkins]

So, has Annex l of the Nautical Rules of the Road ( # 11 , which specifically allowed " non-electric lights " in the '91' edition) in fact been changed ?

I found the body of the regs online ,

http://www.oz.net/~papillon/kbmanual/colregs.html

but not the annexes .

[ 06-06-2002, 11:10 AM: Message edited by: Bill Perkins ]

[Ian G Wright]

Originally posted by Art Read:
When was the last anybody here REALLY saw anybody but the coasties or the navy using an "anchor" ball outside of a tall ship rendevous?Well,,,,,,,,, there's me, everybody I know, most anchored boats I see,,,,,,,,,Oh,"when" you ask, Yesterday soon enough for you?
Why would anyone NOT use light or ball at anchor? It's the LAW. Plus it looks good on the claim form when the Metalflake Kid T-bones you.
Lights and Shapes, use 'em. If you don't know what and why, then learn, it's not hard.

IanW.

[Nicholas Carey]

Originally posted by Bill Perkins:
So, has Annex l of the Nautical Rules of the Road ( # 11 , which specifically allowed " non-electric lights " in the '91' edition) in fact been changed ?

I found the body of the regs online [elided url] but not the annexes .The official --- well, for the USofA, anyway --- COLREGS is available at http://www.uscg.mil/vtm/pages/rules.htm as an Adobe Acrobat (*.pdf) document. You can also order the hardcopy edition from the USGPO from this page as well.

[Nicholas Carey]

Originally posted by meerkat:
There's also a "not under command" signal that can be shown if you leave the helm unattended while under way. Handy for solo folks I guess.Actually, that doesn't make you "a vessel not under command", not the way I read it. A vessel is underway pretty much once you leave the dock or weigh anchor, regardless of whether you're going anywhere. Rule 3 says:


The word “underway” means that a vessel is not at anchor, or made fast to the shore, or aground.And to become 'a vessel not under command' requires an exceptional circumstance. Rule 3 says:


The term “vessel not under command” means a vessel which through some exceptional circumstance is unable to maneuver as required by these Rules and is therefore unable to keep out of the way of another vessel.It would be a stretch to claim that going forward to nap in the sun or ducking below to make lunch or use the head constitutes an "exceptional circumstance". An exceptional circumstance would be something along the lines of, say, having your steering gear fail.

Ducking below isn't exceptional, it's a willful violation of Rule 5 [International]:


Every vessel shall at all times maintain a proper look-out by sight and hearing as well as by all available means appropriate in the prevailing circumstances and conditions so as to make a full appraisal of the situation and of the risk of collision.

[Scott Rosen]

Nicholas,

I would think that if you are in open water in 35 foot sailboat, good visibility, traveling at 7 knots, and there were no boats in sight, or at lest none that were on a collision course, you could go take a leak for a minute or two and still be deemed to be keeping an appropriate watch for the circumstances.

After all, "at all times" can't be taken so literally that you can't even look down at your compass or engine controls for ten seconds, or even blink or rub your eyes for that matter.

[Bill Perkins]

Humm... I see the rule is unchanged .Meerkat what moved you to declare an oil anchor light illegal ?

Annex l , #11 . "INTENSITY OF NON-ELECTRIC LIGHTS : Non-electric lights shall as far as practicable comply with the minimum intensities , as specified in the Table given in section 8 of this annex ."

My Handbook of the Nautical Rules ( 1991 ), written by two former CG officials , interprets this as follows : " Lanterns useing oil , kerosene , and such for their light source do not have to meet the intensity requirements of Annex l if not " practicable ." Operators must adjust the flame to an optimal level , however , and keep the lenses clean ."

[ 06-06-2002, 09:29 PM: Message edited by: Bill Perkins ]

[Meerkat]

Bill;

I honestly don't recall where I read it, but if oil lamps are still legal, that's really good news! (Of course, oil nav lamps ain't cheap either!)

Art;
Most people might not use an anchor ball, but if you get nailed and you're not flying one, your insurance (if you have any) is probably going to be null and void and you might end up being found at fault for the other guy's damages too. Think of it as cheap insurance.

Norm;
You might find http://home.triad.rr.com/lcruise/index.htm of interest, especially their equipment lists buried somewhere in the "Micro Cruising Guide" pages at http://home.triad.rr.com/lcruise/MCG.htm

They also talk about using white LEDs for a masthead light, as well as internal reading lights.