Libyan No Fly Zone delays!

[Allison]

Just wondering if anyone else has noticed how slow any response to the Gadaffi regimes slaughtering of the rebels is going so slowly.
The fact that most of the major players have contracts with Gadaffi regime for oil, gas and all sorts of other things wouldn't play a part in that at all by any chance?
A lot of "Tut tutting" but no real action. Could be that they are waiting till he's flattened the rebels and then they can come in and give some legitimacy to his actions by brokering a cease fire that will leave all their interests safe!

Not that I'm a cynic or anything!

[Phillip Allen]

yep...

[Phillip Allen]

as another "professional" sailor on another sailing forum once said...they're his people to kill if he wants to ...he was a favorite there and I got shouted down there too

[BrianW]

This is what happens, when the US doesn't jump.

[Allison]

This is what happens, when the US doesn't jump.

it's not happening on the US doorstep, it's right in front of the Europeans, but then some of them have a lot more invested in Gadaffi staying viable at least to a certain extent.

[BrianW]

it's not happening on the US doorstep, it's right in front of the Europeans, but then some of them have a lot more invested in Gadaffi staying viable at least to a certain extent.

I agree.

Still not personally convinced it should be a US led operation. But I do believe a no-fly zone might be a good idea.

[PeterSibley]

Agreed , but I think Allison's suggestion is correct .When it's freedom ,democracy and ridding the world of dictators and their torturers VERSUS an increase in the oil price ,there's really no competition is it ? :(:(

[Paul Girouard]

I agree.

Still not personally convinced it should be a US led operation. But I do believe a no-fly zone might be a good idea.


Hell may be freezing over , Hillary Clinton , agrees with us.


Clinton: No-Fly Zone Over Libya Cannot be U.S.-Led Effort



Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/03/09/pentagon-gates-ruled-fly-zone-libya/#ixzz1GYLI68Z0

[PeterSibley]

I don't think the rebels really care .They don't want ANY boots on the ground , just planes in the air .

[johnw]

it's not happening on the US doorstep, it's right in front of the Europeans, but then some of them have a lot more invested in Gadaffi staying viable at least to a certain extent.
And yet, the press is quoting Libyans who resent America for not acting. But if we did act, some would resent us for that.

The French have recognized the rebel government, the Italians are urging a no-fly zone, the Arab League has come out against Gadaffi, but no one acts. We're already at war in two Muslim countries and have little taste for more. If someone wanted to take out Gadaffi, destroying his aircraft and helicopters on the ground would be a good first step, but it's an act of war, and who wants a piece of that tar baby? Most likely someone -- possibly us -- will give the rebels surface to air missiles and additional kit and we'll have the mujaheddin all over again, and we've seen how that move works out. I'm pretty pessimistic about the endgame, it looks like there aren't that many good options. Most of them will end up with a long civil war or Gadaffi retaining power, neither of which would be anyone's first choice.

Too bad we're already fighting two wars, it takes away some options.

[Allison]

The reality is that they don't want him out of power and a govt. that they don't have any control over in charge of all that oil. They are happy to see him weakened and then to play peace maker between him and the rebels. that would weaken him and stifle any real change of govt. at the same time.
But to appear to keep the semblance of democratic outrage they have to make a few noises but they won't step in decisively yet if at all!
they don't want a strong or successful rebel faction, they want to weaken Gadaffi!

[Paul Girouard]

And yet, the press is quoting Libyans who resent America for not acting. But if we did act, some would resent us for that.



And heavens forbid we drop a bomb on some friendly site , hospital , school , what ever. No this is a Arab issue , let the Arab countries take this one on. The USA or the Israeli's involvement in this can only come to no good.

But will that stop us? Prolly not!

[purri]

Alli, as I posted elsewhere a few weeks back it's about security of oil supply and maintaining the current oil lease agreements. The frogs are just grandstanding and no-one cares.
Smoke and mirrors!

[PeterSibley]

And yet, the press is quoting Libyans who resent America for not acting. But if we did act, some would resent us for that.

The French have recognized the rebel government, the Italians are urging a no-fly zone, the Arab League has come out against Gadaffi, but no one acts. We're already at war in two Muslim countries and have little taste for more. If someone wanted to take out Gadaffi, destroying his aircraft and helicopters on the ground would be a good first step, but it's an act of war, and who wants a piece of that tar baby? Most likely someone -- possibly us -- will give the rebels surface to air missiles and additional kit and we'll have the mujaheddin all over again, and we've seen how that move works out. I'm pretty pessimistic about the endgame, it looks like there aren't that many good options. Most of them will end up with a long civil war or Gadaffi retaining power, neither of which would be anyone's first choice.

Too bad we're already fighting two wars, it takes away some options.

I don't think give is the word , probably sell for guarantees of future oil production at predetermined prices . I'm sure there's a corporation willing to buy futures ...very quietly , via proxies .

[Allison]

Peter, you are such a terrible cynic!! How could such a thought have crossed your mind!:D:D

The French and the Italians will make noises but sit and wait as you say purri.

[BrianW]

Too bad we're already fighting two wars, it takes away some options.

Kind of. Iraq is down to about 50,000 troops if I recall correctly. Yes, Afghanistan is sucking up resources that could have been used. But, neither Iraq or Afghanistan, are overwhelming our naval air power right now. I believe we could shut down the Libyan airspace quickly, and for weeks, with little effort. That due to it's location along the Mediterranean Sea.

[PeterSibley]

Kind of. Iraq is down to about 50,000 troops if I recall correctly. Yes, Afghanistan is sucking up resources that could have been used. But, neither Iraq or Afghanistan, are overwhelming our naval air power right now. I believe we could shut down the Libyan airspace quickly, and for weeks, with little effort. That due to it's location along the Mediterranean Sea.

It would probably take an hour and a half .

[Allison]

But they would never do it because it's a crime to interfere in another country's domestic issues, a matter of sovereignty!

At least that's the excuse they are giving at the moment and none of them would ever advocate doing anything illegal! Heavens no!

if they do it will be when the rebels have been attacked enough so that they can't possibly win.

[George.]

The US? Where is the "world policeman" now? Where are all those carrier groups that we are told we must tolerate all over the seas, because they police the world? I'll tell you where: morally bankrupt, thanks to what they did in Iraq. Now the price is paid, and the price is the moral standing that the US, alone among nations, once had, and squandered.

Europe? You are kidding, right? For instance, just think of what sort of files on Berlusconi the Colonel must have ready for release if they bomb his airfields. I bet the French don't look too good in that picture either.

The Arab League? That's Kadhafi's country club. I bet they only called for a no-fly zone because they are sure it won't be implemented.

And don't even get me started on Lula... good thing his people are all out of the Foreign Ministry. The truth is, the people fighting for freedom are on their own, as usual. The longer it goes on, the more tribal it will get. I see a failed state in the making.

[Waddie]

Kind of. Iraq is down to about 50,000 troops if I recall correctly. Yes, Afghanistan is sucking up resources that could have been used. But, neither Iraq or Afghanistan, are overwhelming our naval air power right now. I believe we could shut down the Libyan airspace quickly, and for weeks, with little effort. That due to it's location along the Mediterranean Sea.

Setting up a no fly zone is never simple and the risk of collateral damage is great. No fly zones are not very effective against helicopters, which we saw in Iraq, and which Gaddiffi has in abundance. Besides, the rebels are so un-organized that he will defeat them without having to use much air power. Don't look for the Europeans to do much, or the other Arab states in the area, which all have air forces...

regards,
Waddie

[Phillip Allen]

The reality is that they don't want him out of power and a govt. that they don't have any control over in charge of all that oil. They are happy to see him weakened and then to play peace maker between him and the rebels. that would weaken him and stifle any real change of govt. at the same time.
But to appear to keep the semblance of democratic outrage they have to make a few noises but they won't step in decisively yet if at all!
they don't want a strong or successful rebel faction, they want to weaken Gadaffi!
an assumption on your part...it might be true or not but still it is nothing but an assumption...a rather prejudiced one too

[Phillip Allen]

But they would never do it because it's a crime to interfere in another country's domestic issues, a matter of sovereignty!

At least that's the excuse they are giving at the moment and none of them would ever advocate doing anything illegal! Heavens no!

if they do it will be when the rebels have been attacked enough so that they can't possibly win.

"They" is Obama...A Chicago lawyer

[Allison]

an assumption on your part...it might be true or not but still it is nothing but an assumption...a rather prejudiced one too

I would tend to call it an informed prejudice and an assumption based on observation of past behaviour!

[Phillip Allen]

The US? Where is the "world policeman" now? Where are all those carrier groups that we are told we must tolerate all over the seas, because they police the world? I'll tell you where: morally bankrupt, thanks to what they did in Iraq. Now the price is paid, and the price is the moral standing that the US, alone among nations, once had, and squandered.

Europe? You are kidding, right? For instance, just think of what sort of files on Berlusconi the Colonel must have ready for release if they bomb his airfields. I bet the French don't look too good in that picture either.

The Arab League? That's Kadhafi's country club. I bet they only called for a no-fly zone because they are sure it won't be implemented.

And don't even get me started on Lula... good thing his people are all out of the Foreign Ministry. The truth is, the people fighting for freedom are on their own, as usual. The longer it goes on, the more tribal it will get. I see a failed state in the making.

Mediterranean Pirates in our future?

[Phillip Allen]

I would tend to call it an informed prejudice and an assumption based on observation of past behaviour!

a reasonable come-back...how very odd on this forum

[Allison]

But not odd for me!

[Phillip Allen]

But not odd for me!

you will NEVER fit in!

[Allison]

I've been told that before once or twice, sometimes in not such a polite way as you use Phillip.
But you know after hearing it most of my life I tend to ignore it though some people can get pretty pushy about it!

[Phillip Allen]

I've been told that before once or twice, sometimes in not such a polite way as you use Phillip.
But you know after hearing it most of my life I tend to ignore it though some people can get pretty pushy about it!

not MEEE!

[Hot Air]

Let the Allahu Akba crowd sort out their own mess and buy the oil from the victor. As long as the oil flows and they are not a danger to the world, then I am not really interested in seeing anymore US miltary engagement in that nest of scorpions.

[PeterSibley]

Let the Allahu Akba crowd sort out their own mess and buy the oil from the victor. As long as the oil flows and they are not a danger to the world, then I am not really interested in seeing anymore US miltary engagement in that nest of scorpions.

Your compassion is a light to the world ! :D:D

[Phillip Allen]

Your compassion is a light to the world ! :D:D

in fact...a "guiding light"

[Phillip Allen]

I just thought of an aside:

when our government burned out the Bonus Army...what did the rest of the world say at the time?...anyone know?

[johnw]

The Arab League? That's Kadhafi's country club. I bet they only called for a no-fly zone because they are sure it won't be implemented.

Um, not exactly.

http://www.indianexpress.com/oldStory/48743/


In June 2003, Alamoudi said, Gaddafi told him, ‘‘I want the crown prince killed, either through assassination or through a coup.’’ By August, according to Alamoudi, Gaddafi asked why he had not yet seen ‘‘heads flying’’ in the Saudi royal family. Alamoudi’s account is critical as it ties the terrorist plot that has been said to exist to a head of state. For that reason, Alamoudi has been questioned in detail about his two meetings with Gaddafi, including descriptions of the Libyan leader’s farm in Sidra, where they reportedly met in June, and of Gaddafi’s office in Tripoli, where they reportedly met in August.

No love lost, I'm guessing.

[Dr. Arthur Trollingson]

This aggression will not stand, man!

The U.S. military needs to go bomb Libyan anti-aircraft installations, runways, and heliports ASAP. The rebels are under threat from Ghaddafi, so they need a no-fly zone for their safety.

Ghaddafi's forces are also killing innocent people in the streets, and running civilians over with tanks. The planes enforcing the no-fly zone should use precision bombs on the tanks being used for crimes against humanity. Perhaps they could also establish a communications network for the rebels, and co-ordinate air cover for their battles. They need to be able to fight their civil war safely!

We've got to stop the killing! Send bombs now!

[Phillip Allen]

I just thought of an aside:

when our government burned out the Bonus Army...what did the rest of the world say at the time?...anyone know?

bumping my question

[Ian McColgin]

Bonus army? As anyone who studied history knows, there were two dead. The world slept easily. McArthur's white horse got a good currying.

[Phillip Allen]

thanks for the response...I am really wondering what was said outside our influence

BTW wasn't Ike there as well?

[Oyvind Snibsoer]

Qadaffi has been busy buying military hardware since '69. He should have quite a collection by now, and that includes a significant SAM capability. And Reagan's bombing raid in the late '80s probably didn't exactly curb the colonel's enthusiasm for AA hardware. In short, the west may be up against a significant adversary. OK, most of that hardware may be Russian, but who's due to put the astronauts into space once the last shuttle lands?

[Allison]

The G8 has just met and their final statement didn't mention Libya. Some countries are expressing "dismay" and "Horror" but they are all happy to sit back and let things go for a while longer. Weaken both sides and then step in to collect the prizes?

[Dr. Arthur Trollingson]

The G8 has just met and their final statement didn't mention Libya. Some countries are expressing "dismay" and "Horror" but they are all happy to sit back and let things go for a while longer. Weaken both sides and then step in to collect the prizes?

Germany didn't like the idea.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/video/2011/mar/15/libya-no-fly-zone-germany-video