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George.
03-12-2011, 06:21 AM
I emerge from the jungle to find the world coming to an end: apparently a nuclear power plant exploded in Japan, and there is no Bilge thread about it yet. This used to be the best source for real-time news, rumours, and innuendo...

Phillip Allen
03-12-2011, 06:22 AM
I emerge from the jungle to find the world coming to an end: apparently a nuclear power plant exploded in Japan, and there is no Bilge thread about it yet. This used to be the best source for real-time news, rumours, and innuendo...

it's here...just not in the thread title
http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?128106-A-major-earthquake-in-Japan-.7.9-on-the-Japanese-scale

seanz
03-12-2011, 06:26 AM
Back to the jungle! Hurry!

George.
03-12-2011, 06:26 AM
Walt Patterson, of the London research institute Chatham House, said "this is starting to look a lot like Chernobyl".

Can it be?

Phillip Allen
03-12-2011, 06:29 AM
Can it be?
not likely...the neutron moderator is not flammable this time

ishmael
03-12-2011, 06:32 AM
Hi George,

It sounds like a rather nasty situation in Japan. Difficult to say with certainty at this remove, but the last news reports I heard said it wasn't going to be easy to keep the reactor from going critical. Meaning it heats up to the point where it's impossible to keep radionuclides from spewing. Not good.

I certainly wish the engineers and technicians working it the best.

PeterSibley
03-12-2011, 06:32 AM
I think we are all just waiting George .

George.
03-12-2011, 06:50 AM
I see images of a reactor building exploding. There is obviously radioactive material inside, and it obviously must have spewed out in the cloud of steam, smoke, and debris.

Times like this, I am glad I live under the Southern Cross.

Bob Adams
03-12-2011, 06:51 AM
I just saw the raw video, you can see a cylindrical pressure wave erupt from the building, they certainly have an exposed core. I'll go find the video link.

Video, wait until they rerun it, zoomed:

http://news.yahoo.com/video/world-15749633/24496683#video=24499890

skuthorp
03-12-2011, 06:53 AM
Which way do the winds blow this time of year?
http://www.windfinder.com/windstats/windstatistic_map_japan.htm

Phillip Allen
03-12-2011, 06:54 AM
I just saw the raw video, you can see a cylindrical pressure wave erupt from the building, they certainly have an exposed core. I'll go find the video link.

the steam will have blown the lid off the pressure vessel...steam is very powerful

Phillip Allen
03-12-2011, 06:54 AM
Which way do the winds blow this time of year?
http://www.windfinder.com/windstats/windstatistic_map_japan.htm

I thought of that...bet there are wind socks on the buildings if you can spot them

Bob Adams
03-12-2011, 06:57 AM
Looks to me like it's blowing out to sea, should buy some evacuation time. Damn.

Phillip Allen
03-12-2011, 06:59 AM
Looks to me like it's blowing out to sea, should buy some evacuation time. Damn.

I'm sure the prevailing wind was taken into account when the design and location were considered

George.
03-12-2011, 07:00 AM
To sea? You mean towards the West Coast of the US, same place where China's smog ends up, right?

skuthorp
03-12-2011, 07:01 AM
March prevailing is NNW, but it's as for local weather? If there's a problem we'll all know about it and the Tsunami may be seen as minor.

Phillip Allen
03-12-2011, 07:02 AM
To sea? You mean towards the West Coast of the US, same place where China's smog ends up, right?

yep...that's why there's a China-Town in San Francisco

PeterSibley
03-12-2011, 07:05 AM
I'm sure the prevailing wind was taken into account when the design and location were considered

That's a joke ? Right ?

Phillip Allen
03-12-2011, 07:06 AM
That's a joke ? Right ?

why wouldn't that be considered?

skuthorp
03-12-2011, 07:09 AM
why wouldn't that be considered?

Because it was never going to be a problem, was it? And I'm not sure that that would have been a criteria anyhow. I mean, there's a whole ocean out there eh?

PeterSibley
03-12-2011, 07:11 AM
Thanks Jeff , precisely , it's never going to happen .

George Ray
03-12-2011, 07:12 AM
I think I'll go to the South Atlantic for a bit.

George Ray
03-12-2011, 07:30 AM
Holy Cow!
No wonder George is paying close attention to this issue, ..... He lives almost in sight of two operational reactors.

George.
03-12-2011, 07:34 AM
Yep... right next to Bracuhy. :D

BTW, check your PMs.

skuthorp
03-12-2011, 07:34 AM
I read something about that before, but we have been fed that much bull before that you can't tell when they tell the truth. Of course they may just not know exactly what's going on as it seems from statementd so far. Hang on to your hats.
Anyone want to start a pro nuclear power thread? Of course for many countries it is the only choice with todays demands for power. At any risk.
George should be OK, as long as there's not an earthquake.

George.
03-12-2011, 07:44 AM
George should be OK, as long as there's not an earthquake.

We don't have earthquakes or tsunamis in Brazil. Our only natural disaster is our government. Frighteningly, it operates the nukes.

However, the prevailing SE wind here would blow any leak away from Ilha Grande, towards... the small town of São Paulo. That is, unless there is a cold front, in which case the WSW wind would blow it all towards Rio. So you see, they do take wind into account when siting these things.

skuthorp
03-12-2011, 07:49 AM
"Our only natural disaster is our government":d:D

George.
03-12-2011, 07:54 AM
Most governments are pretty disastrous at times like these:


Although Japan has a long and largely successful nuclear power programme, officials have been less than honest about some incidents in the past, meaning that official re-assurances are unlikely to convince everyone this time round.

skuthorp
03-12-2011, 08:00 AM
Operating company says the containment vessel hasn't been damaged and they are going to cool the fuel with sea water.

ishmael
03-12-2011, 08:02 AM
Using nukes for power isn't child's play. You have to have people well trained. But I ask again, what else are we going to do? People talk about clean coal, but that isn't easy, or cheap.

S.V. Airlie
03-12-2011, 08:11 AM
Weren't we talking about atomic power plants a few weeks when many here were advocating production of them in the US because they were clean, safe, and efficient?

George.
03-12-2011, 08:12 AM
No, and when you are done, you can dump it back into the sea.

Meanwhile, another three reactors in the tsunami zone report cooling problems.

S.V. Airlie
03-12-2011, 08:14 AM
All the better, fishermen fishing at night won't need to use a fish finder as the fish will glow in the dark and a geiger counter will sound off like crazy.

ishmael
03-12-2011, 08:17 AM
So, George, what are we going to do? The world's population is burgeoning, and is going to demand energy.

skuthorp
03-12-2011, 08:19 AM
Listening to the BBC, the jounalist just said "Uh, there's another one, a big one" refering to the aftershocks.

skuthorp
03-12-2011, 08:21 AM
We may have to reverse the trend Ish, and not just for energy reasons, food too. If so it won't be pretty.

LeeG
03-12-2011, 08:41 AM
So, George, what are we going to do? The world's population is burgeoning, and is going to demand energy.

you can't always get what you want. The immediate issue is adjusting to higher cost oil and a transportation infrastructure that is 100% dependent on oil. Fix that before dreaming of nuclear plants powering 18wheelers or 150million personal vehicles.

Bob Adams
03-12-2011, 09:04 AM
Lee, do you EVER have a different response? You are so predictable you might as well not push the "post" button.

LeeG
03-12-2011, 09:24 AM
Lee, do you EVER have a different response? You are so predictable you might as well not push the "post" button.

Bob, in threads related to energy, especially threads where Jack doesn't differentiate between types of energy, I'll bring up the relevance of the source of energy that is most economical for transportation, oil, because that is what those people Jack refers to will demand. People in countries that are increasing their energy consumption are using the most economical source for moving goods and people. Electricity can move people through trolley, trains,cars and electrical bicycles but for anyone needing the most versatile means for moving their body and goods it'll be an ICE engine and two axles. Craftsmen,plumbers, mechanics, etc meeting customers with specialized tools will hop into an ICE run vehicle, not a battery run car, moped or trolley car.
That competition for oil will impact YOUR life a lot more than proliferating nuclear plants in high energy consuming countries. Although putting up nuclear power plants in oil producing countries so that they can reduce oil use for electrical generation would be as beneficial as drilling for more oil. We're presently helping Saudi Arabia develop a nuclear program but freak out when Iran does.

You on the other hand have yet to actually engage on the actual topics but mostly commentary on the manner of my response or my personal circumstances. I'm wearing pajamas and eating oatmeal with raisins right now, does that excite you?

Arizona Bay
03-12-2011, 10:02 AM
This is the map that is circulating. I have no info on it's validity...

Here comes Mothra

http://img847.imageshack.us/f/fallout.jpg/http://imageftw.com/uploads/20110312/1299913314162.jpg
http://img847.imageshack.us/f/fallout.jpg/

Bob Adams
03-12-2011, 10:20 AM
you can't always get what you want. The immediate issue is adjusting to higher cost oil and a transportation infrastructure that is 100% dependent on oil. Fix that before dreaming of nuclear plants powering 18wheelers or 150million personal vehicles.

Jack didn't say a damn word about transportation. The thread is about electricity generation.But that doesn't fit your standard response, does it?

Phillip Allen
03-12-2011, 11:28 AM
Because it was never going to be a problem, was it? And I'm not sure that that would have been a criteria anyhow. I mean, there's a whole ocean out there eh?

I beg to differ...it has been part of the thinking since the beginning...it may have been worked around but it was always in the list of questions

Phillip Allen
03-12-2011, 11:33 AM
Operating company says the containment vessel hasn't been damaged and they are going to cool the fuel with sea water.

if they do that and that sea water comes into contact with any part of the core, they will have to bury that sea water forever...the big problem with using sea water is that there is so much to become irradiated and thus become a source itself...LOTS of stuff...MAJOR CLEAN-UP OF THE SEA WATER ALONE...THEY BETTER NOT DUMP THAT STUFF AT SEA

Gerarddm
03-12-2011, 11:34 AM
The thing about Chernobyl and 3 Mile Island is that they are inland. This puppy is on the coastline itself. If there's a containment leak the ocean is going to be severely effected. Whew. Let's hope they manage to get this under control or else it ceases to be a Japanese problem and becomes a world problem. The wind issues are one thing ( and I am in the 750 rad 10-day zone on that sobering graphic shown above ), but what about the ocean current issues if one or two reactors melt down?

S.V. Airlie
03-12-2011, 11:38 AM
Gerarddm.. the cloud refers to an airborne one.. I really don't think it makes a difference regardless as to where the plant is.. Now using sea water is another issue.

George Jung
03-12-2011, 11:59 AM
I wonder - is the seawater less of a problem based on anticipated dilution? I am unaware of their reasoning on this.

Phillip Allen
03-12-2011, 12:03 PM
among other considerations, sea water cooling for a rx has the same problems as using sea water in a steam engine

genglandoh
03-12-2011, 12:21 PM
Some information about the Reactor Design. The reactors are GE Boiling water reactors. Not the best design, The Westinghouse (PWR) Pressurized water reactors are a better design. The reason I say this is the BWR the control rods are pushed up from the bottom and the PWR the control rods are lowered from the top. So if you loose auxiliary power to the reactor area the BWR control rods can not be pushed into the reactor shutting it down. The PWR the control rods will drop when auxiliary power is lost shutting down the reactor.

The big fear for all Nuclear Reactors is the inability to shut it down, overheating, causing a leak in the containment system and releasing large amounts of highly radioactive steam. Just think a radioactive cloud floating over a city and causing health problems for years to come.

The good news is the plant is on the coast and I am hoping any radioactive steam will float over the sea.

So far the News stories are not very good to figure out if there is a real problem.

If you have any friend in the are tell them to move up wind of the plant just in case.

BWR
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6a/Schema_reacteur_eau_bouillante.svg/450px-Schema_reacteur_eau_bouillante.svg.png

PWR
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a0/PressurizedWaterReactor.gif/420px-PressurizedWaterReactor.gif

Links

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fukushima_I_Nuclear_Power_Plant

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boiling_water_reactor

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pressurized_water_reactor

Durnik
03-12-2011, 12:46 PM
So, George, what are we going to do? The world's population is burgeoning, and is going to demand energy.

Well, turns out nuclear is the answer.. the important thing being siting of the reactor.. seems 93,000,000 miles from life is about right.. ;-)

all power plants are steam driven turbines.. well, almost all.. the only thing that changes is the heat source. Solar thermal w/ ethanol backup will do just fine.. if the political hurdles are ever overcome.

to nip one argument in the bud, ethanol isn't hard to make in quantity.. & corn/cane/beets are _not_ the proper food stocks.. Every large community in N. America has a functioning waste treatment plant.. using cat tails to final filter the water.. which cat tails make _huge_ root corms.. which ferment to ethanol just fine, than you. Think about turning a debit industry (sewerage treatment plant) into a credit industry.. one which produces completely renewable fuel. In the U.S., the coal & corn lobbies stops all retrofit attempts.

Hell, even if they do use corn, the mash is still good for livestock food.. Chickens, cows, sheep etc would love it. Or for the people who insist on pseudo foods, use the corn mash instead of soy.. This really ain't rocket science.. but it would take a little cooperation amongst workers.. with the money & political boys shunted to the back for a while.. Like that's gonna happen.

Oh, yea, we might just try some voluntary birth control before it's too late..

just sayin' ;-)

and, yes, the Fukushima plant siting would have considered prevailing winds.. tho, certainly in the 60's when this plant was designed/built, the ocean was seen as an infinite dumping ground. Bet they planned on salt water cooling in an emergency.

From Edison (http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Thomas_Edison)

We are like tenant farmers chopping down the fence around our house for fuel when we should be using Nature's inexhaustible sources of energy — sun, wind and tide. ... I'd put my money on the sun and solar energy. What a source of power! I hope we don't have to wait until oil and coal run out before we tackle that.

WASF

Bob Adams
03-12-2011, 12:47 PM
Good info there Genglandoh, however the design was not a problem in this case. They had backup power immediatley after the quake and did get the rods in. The problem came when the tsunami wave killed the diesel gennys, shutting down the cooling pumps. They are saying the primary containment and reactor are intact. I hope I was wrong about my intepretation of the explosion video, maybe it was hydrogen and the pressure vessel is OK, it sure looked like the top getting blown off to me.

Phillip Allen
03-12-2011, 12:50 PM
boiling water rx is the cheap build and fraught with built in problems...nucleate boiling on the surface of the fuel acts as insulation, preventing efficient cooling from the git-go (hot spots). with the primary coolant/secondary steam generator system there is no gas in the presents of the fuel(supposedly) and therefore water contacts all the fuel surface, allowing faster cooling

if either system is breached then cooling effectively stops. with the westinghouse system, the primary coolant is the ONLY water in contact with radioactive "junk" and the steam generating system is clean...with the cheap system, EVERYTHING is "dirty"

I didn't know they would be using such a poor system

genglandoh
03-12-2011, 12:54 PM
Good info there Genglandoh, however the design was not a problem in this case. They had backup power immediatley after the quake and did get the rods in. The problem came when the tsunami wave killed the diesel gennys, shutting down the cooling pumps. They are saying the primary containment and reactor are intact. I hope I was wrong about my intepretation of the explosion video, maybe it was hydrogen and the pressure vessel is OK, it sure looked like the top getting blown off to me.

Thanks for the info. I just got home last night from a 2 week project and have not seen all the videos and news reports.
I only found out about earthquake last night from my wife.

Nanoose
03-12-2011, 01:17 PM
Radiation Threat Falling

http://news.sympatico.cbc.ca/world/radiation_threat_falls_after_japan_plant_blast/fee6977b

genglandoh
03-12-2011, 01:26 PM
boiling water rx is the cheap build and fraught with built in problems...nucleate boiling on the surface of the fuel acts as insulation, preventing efficient cooling from the git-go (hot spots). with the primary coolant/secondary steam generator system there is no gas in the presents of the fuel(supposedly) and therefore water contacts all the fuel surface, allowing faster cooling

if either system is breached then cooling effectively stops. with the westinghouse system, the primary coolant is the ONLY water in contact with radioactive "junk" and the steam generating system is clean...with the cheap system, EVERYTHING is "dirty"

I didn't know they would be using such a poor system

Thanks for the better description of why a BWR is a poor design.

It also looks like the Control Rods are melting and the reactor is on its way to a full meltdown.

http://www.businessweek.com/news/2011-03-12/japan-tries-to-cool-unstable-reactor-avert-three-mile-island-.html


Just for some background to the non engineering group.
The control rods stop the nuclear fuel from reaction with each other.
So the first goal is to get the rods in between the fuel rods.

But the reactor is still very hot (temperature) so you need to cool the entire assembly down. Pumping cooling water into the reactor and then out to a heat exchanged will remove the heat from the reactor (just like the radiation in you car). So if the cooling water pumps are down the reactor cooling water will just sit in the reactor getting hotter and hotter. As the water gets hotter the pressure will build up , just like a pressure cooker, and if the pressure gets too high the reactor will explode releasing all the cooling water in the form of radioactive steam.

George.
03-12-2011, 01:49 PM
So best case scenario is the North Pacific gets nuked. Worst case scenario is half of Japan and the west coast of North America get nuked.

yzer
03-12-2011, 02:10 PM
I hate to disappoint the anti-nuke crowd but there hasn't been a nuclear disaster in Japan.

This isn't Chernobyl. Those Japanese plants may be forty years old but the containments remain intact. Chernobyl was built and operated with criminal incompetence by Soviet buffoons. The reactor didn't even have a containment. Such an inherently dangerous reactor was never built in Japan or the US.

A hydrogen explosion related to loss of the cooling system blew the weather shell off the Japanese reactor building, but the core is still within a functioning containment. There was no large release of radioactive material.

genglandoh is dead right. Newer Westinghouse PWR reactors represent a new generation of nuclear power plant design. This generation in inherently more safe to operate than the older boiling water reactors.

The current state of the art in nuclear power plant design is represented by the Westinghouse AP 1000. These are generation III+ reactors. They take PWR to the next level of safety by incorporating passive safety systems. For instance, the AP 1000 will shut down safely and cool itself automatically without electricity.

http://www.ap1000.westinghousenuclear.com/ap1000_safety.html

genglandoh
03-12-2011, 02:18 PM
So best case scenario is the North Pacific gets nuked. Worst case scenario is half of Japan and the west coast of North America get nuked.

I do not think anyone knows what the worst case scenario is.
There has never been a reactor that did a meltdown.

Chernobyl was the worst nuclear disaster on record but Chernobyl used graphite in the reactor.
The reactor was shutting down but the heat caused the graphite to burn then explode releasing large amounts of radioactive smoke and dust. It acted just like a dirty bomb. Standard explosion throwing out nuclear material but not a nuclear explosion.

One theroy has it that if a reactor melts down and becomes a runaway nuclear reactor it will be a nuclear bomb and explode like a nuclear bomb.

I for one do not think this could happen because when the reactor melts both the control rods and fuel rods will melt together mixing slowing down the reaction, but if I was in Japan I would move as far away as I could just in case.

PS A Nuclear Meltdown is called a China Syndrome because if a reactor gets so hot that nothing will hold it, it will burn a hole through the earth and end up in China.

Paul Girouard
03-12-2011, 02:27 PM
PS A Nuclear Meltdown is called a China Syndrome because if a reactor gets so hot that nothing will home it it will burn a hole through the earth and end up in China.



Really? Is that really the reason? Sort of the digging a hole to China saying? Yer kidding right?

So where would the Japan reactor end up , Arkansas? Maybe Phillip Allen's house!

genglandoh
03-12-2011, 02:39 PM
Really? Is that really the reason? Sort of the digging a hole to China saying? Yer kidding right?

So where would the Japan reactor end up , Arkansas? Maybe Phillip Allen's house!

No I am not kidding.
Many engineering terms are jokes.
Computer Problems are called bugs because on of the first computer problem was when a bug shorted out the system.
Other examples are
1. Byte is 8 bits because the early computers had 8 leads to the cpus so the biggest amount of info it could get was 1 byte.
2. 4 bits of info is a small byte it is called a nibble. ( apple even had a magazine called nibble for its AppleII)
3. Booting your computer can from putting on your boots before you start work.

There a re lots more but I can not think of them right now.

Paul Girouard
03-12-2011, 02:53 PM
Interesting. Thanks.

On things that burn hot , brakes on some tactical aircraft used , maybe still are, made of magnesium. We where told if we had a brake fire on the ship the way to "put it out" was to jettison it , or the aircraft over the side. If you didn't do that the magnesium fire would burn and just burn it's way thru the deck levels before it cooled enough to go out. No amount of water or foam would cool it enough. Although in typing that I'm thinking why wouldn't the foam cut off the oxygen to the fire, removing one leg of the fire triangle? Maybe once it's going / on fire magnesium doesn't need oxygen either?

Anyone want to add to or dis claim any of that?

Now it would be hard to get a break fire on a carrier , it would take "another" fire on a aircraft that got the brake hot enough to burn as you hardly use the brakes while deployed on a ship. Never "hard" enough or long and hard enough to get them hot enough to burn. If that makes sense.

BarnacleGrim
03-12-2011, 03:06 PM
Sand or salt is used to extinguish magnesium fires. During Second World War bombing raids in Norway my father would sit in the attic with a bucket of sand ready to douse any stray incendiary bombs.

yzer
03-12-2011, 03:14 PM
Magnesium wheels and chassis parts on Formula 1 cars enjoyed a very brief vogue. The fires got nasty. Mg is still used in racing, but in the form of less dangerous alloys.

Phillip Allen
03-12-2011, 03:34 PM
Really? Is that really the reason? Sort of the digging a hole to China saying? Yer kidding right?

So where would the Japan reactor end up , Arkansas? Maybe Phillip Allen's house!

Oh Damn!

Phillip Allen
03-12-2011, 03:36 PM
now I'll have to explain that gravity would take the molten mass to the center of the earth where gravity would keep it...

genglandoh
03-12-2011, 03:38 PM
now I'll have to explain that gravity would take the molten mass to the center of the earth where gravity would keep it...

But there is no gravity the earth sucks.

Sorry for the bad joke.

Phillip Allen
03-12-2011, 03:38 PM
perhaps...does China suck more than America?

genglandoh
03-12-2011, 03:41 PM
perhaps...does China suck more than America?

Thanks with all the bad news I needed a good laugh.

Bill Huson
03-12-2011, 04:06 PM
Interesting. Thanks.

On things that burn hot , brakes on some tactical aircraft used , maybe still are, made of magnesium. We where told if we had a brake fire on the ship the way to "put it out" was to jettison it , or the aircraft over the side. If you didn't do that the magnesium fire would burn and just burn it's way thru the deck levels before it cooled enough to go out. No amount of water or foam would cool it enough. Although in typing that I'm thinking why wouldn't the foam cut off the oxygen to the fire, removing one leg of the fire triangle? Maybe once it's going / on fire magnesium doesn't need oxygen either?

Anyone want to add to or dis claim any of that?

Now it would be hard to get a break fire on a carrier , it would take "another" fire on a aircraft that got the brake hot enough to burn as you hardly use the brakes while deployed on a ship. Never "hard" enough or long and hard enough to get them hot enough to burn. If that makes sense.

Well - foam is a no-no on aircraft wheel fires. Purple K (dry chem) is supposed to work, but our latest instructions is DROWN that fire in MEGA-WATER. As in aim bumper turret or deck turret (or both) at burning wheel and pull the trigger. Bill - ARFF Coastal Carolina Regional Airport

P.S. our location is convenient for numerous Military aircraft to practice, and our training includes same.

George Jung
03-12-2011, 05:49 PM
George., what you doing in the jungle????

Spit it out, son!

(It's cold here in these parts, and I need a warm weather story!)

watson1990
03-12-2011, 06:09 PM
One of the many things that worry me about the entire problem in Japan is that somewhat like the Chinese,[ but not as bad ] the Japanese will tell the world that 200 people have died from this tragidy,,,,an hour or two later it gets bumped up to 396 and an hour later 600 ...then you go to bed and wake up and its up to 1100 overnight..before long they are talking about 8000 -10,000 ...before you know it the numbers are huge.
Ever otice that when China reports a cave in at a mine the initial number of dead is 4 ,,and then its 28 and a few hours later it is 286 ????
I pray I am wrong but I believe that the final figure of dead in Japan ,not counting those who will die over time from the radiation leaks will be up in the 50,000 -100,000 people... They try to break it to us slowly so as to prevent us from thinking about how incompetant our governments really are ,,, it is scary but I believe it will be a huge number ...Hope not !
And these numbers I am talking about are if there is not any meltdown!!! if there is ,,, it will go up between 250,000 - to only God knows where !!

George.
03-12-2011, 06:31 PM
In the Indonesian tsunami, they first said a few hundred, then 3000, then 10000, then 300,000.

That's how it goes with these things. There are obviously entire towns with their agricultural hinterlands wiped out. But they won't count dead until they have lists of names, which takes time.

As for the nuke, that's how it goes, too. It may or may not be an extremely serious accident. The only thing we can be sure of is that the government of any nation cannot be relied upon to be transparent at times like these.

John Meachen
03-12-2011, 06:46 PM
Magnesium wheels and chassis parts on Formula 1 cars enjoyed a very brief vogue. The fires got nasty. Mg is still used in racing, but in the form of less dangerous alloys.
Are you quite sure that magnesium wheels are no longer in use?

Paul Girouard
03-12-2011, 06:49 PM
Well - foam is a no-no on aircraft wheel fires. Purple K (dry chem) is supposed to work, but our latest instructions is DROWN that fire in MEGA-WATER. As in aim bumper turret or deck turret (or both) at burning wheel and pull the trigger. Bill - ARFF Coastal Carolina Regional Airport

P.S. our location is convenient for numerous Military aircraft to practice, and our training includes same.




Purple K is some fine FF stuff, although on the ship the crash crew in the mobile cart would be guys using it mainly. The flight deck workers who by proxie become FF in the event of a fire generally are on AFFF hoses , and more than likely we're spraying AFFF at ANY fire any where!

But then again like I said a brake fire on the flight deck would be due to another type fire that burned the AC to the ground and started the brakes on fire. So brake fires are not a big part of flight deck FF training. That would be more for land based FF crews.

Bob Adams
03-12-2011, 06:59 PM
Purple K is some fine FF stuff, although on the ship the crash crew in the mobile cart would be guys using it mainly. The flight deck workers who by proxie become FF in the event of a fire generally are on AFFF hoses , and more than likely we're spraying AFFF at ANY fire any where!

But then again like I said a brake fire on the flight deck would be due to another type fire that burned the AC to the ground and started the brakes on fire. So brake fires are not a big part of flight deck FF training. That would be more for land based FF crews.

Bad brakes:



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NcFZx3tMEnA

yzer
03-12-2011, 07:07 PM
Are you quite sure that magnesium wheels are no longer in use?Not in F1. I suspect that many so-called magnesium wheels on the market today are actually made of safe magnesium alloys.

WX
03-12-2011, 07:13 PM
The guy jumping the broken arrester cable was on the ball. Not so lucky the guy the guy by the tractor.

Paul Girouard
03-12-2011, 07:33 PM
Bad brakes:



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NcFZx3tMEnA

That would be breaks Bob , not brakes as the brakes where not applied on that Hornet. We lost a Prowler to the same type of broken cable back in 1990 , broke just at the end of the "waggle" as the AC is just about stopped.

Couple of other good Prowler launch vid's in that package. I knew that Turd shirt / Plane Capt. (the kid in the brown jersey), was going to get blow being that far under the wing , his Cat Checker buddy didn't do him any justice by letting the PC get in that position. And I'm some what suprised the shooter didn't notice him out of position and suspend the cat shot.

Bad play by a few people on that one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pyiHFb3z324&feature=player_embedded

Nanoose
03-12-2011, 08:36 PM
The quake shifted the main island over 2 meters to the east.
Amazing.

seanz
03-12-2011, 09:00 PM
The quake shifted the main island over 2 meters to the west.
Amazing.

Stunning, isn't it? And to think that last week I was impressed when told that the Port Hills had risen 1' in our last quake.

LeeG
03-12-2011, 09:36 PM
Jack didn't say a damn word about transportation. The thread is about electricity generation.But that doesn't fit your standard response, does it?

"The world's population is burgeoning, and is going to demand energy."

Jack is making a true statement, energy. And that energy is used for transportation for living and commerce. Nuclear power as a source of energy for a transportation has limitations compared to oil. Oil comprises about 38% of total energy consumption in the world with coal and gas providing 26% and 23% with nuclear providing 6%.
So when the worlds population is demanding energy they're going to the largest supplier of energy, oil.

So when Jack says the burgeoning world is demanding energy it's going to be OIL. That's why China is able to buy oil when it shoots up to $140barrel and we can't. Focusing on electrical generation as some kind of solution is idiotic. A third world mechanic isn't filling his $40,000 Volt with nuclear generated electricity. He'll be filling the ten gallon tank of his Toyota with gasoline/diesel.

So Bob, that's why I bring Jack back to reality. The amount of energy we get from oil isn't going to be practically realized from nuclear power. Our economy is powered by a small percentage from nuclear power. So holding out nuclear power as some kind of answer for the world is misguided.

PeterSibley
03-12-2011, 09:42 PM
All very true Lee , but the amount of oil used could be greatly reduced by city electric vehicle use and vehicle efficiency in general .Our current fleets are dinosaurs but the public loves it's lumps of old iron ....so they will have to PAY to run them .

Electric vehicles could probably replace 60% of out transport oil use .

TomF
03-12-2011, 11:00 PM
I know almost nothing about the nuclear industry, beyond the barest kind of reading that any marginally scientifically literate person has done. I've no scientific cred to be able to evaluate the messages we're getting about this Japan emergency.

But. But I've worked around sensitive government communications issues for most of my career. Not so sensitive as this, but things like child deaths while in Child Welfare care, or allegations of medical errors.

What I can say, is that I am confident that we're not being told the half of it. That there is much more concern than we know, even while they're trying their best to minimize damage and poor outcomes. That the issues now being faced are issues which probably have been raised internally for years, in one aspect or another, as potential liabilities. That there's a lot of fear, anger, and resigned cynicism even amongst the people telling us all to stay calm and simply trust.

This ought to be a rude wake-up call for us again. Earthquakes and tsunamis happen, and can overpower any of the kinds of containment we can dream up - whether for nuclear or other toxic materials. But it will not be a wake-up call - that would require us to re-examine our consumption, our lifestyles, etc.

Obviously, I hope that these reactors do not melt down, do not create radioactive plumes which spew toxins across the globe. But even if these ones don't, we've got an existence-proof that such things can happen. At some point, they will. We need to determine whether that is acceptable - considering the timeframe of the damage which will be caused.

t

Memphis Mike
03-12-2011, 11:06 PM
"What I can say, is that I am confident that we're not being told the half of it."

Yep and that's the scary part.

skuthorp
03-12-2011, 11:17 PM
Trouble is Tom that any adjustment of liestyles to suit changed circumstances or for safety reasons would not be politically acceptable unless all parties, let alone all Parties approach it on a bi-partisan level. And even then there'd be trouble. Won't happen unless there is a major disaster, but then there have been several and nothings changed. I reckon we'll go on as we are untill the proverbial hit's the fan, wring our collective hands, be or not be part of the die off depending non luck and geography and then adapt. I have the feeling that tribesmen in Sudan and remote Sth America will have better adaption skills than most of us in the west.

oznabrag
03-12-2011, 11:23 PM
Trouble is Tom that any adjustment of liestyles to suit changed circumstances or for safety reasons would not be politically acceptable unless all parties, let alone all Parties approach it on a bi-partisan level. And even then there'd be trouble. Won't happen unless there is a major disaster, but then there have been several and nothings changed. I reckon we'll go on as we are untill the proverbial hit's the fan, wring our collective hands, be or not be part of the die off depending non luck and geography and then adapt. I have the feeling that tribesmen in Sudan and remote Sth America will have better adaption skills than most of us in the west.

Yup!

You nailed it!

We're not really any more 'advanced' than a bunch of baboons who've found a large patch of fermented fruit.

willmarsh3
03-12-2011, 11:24 PM
This is the map that is circulating. I have no info on it's validity...

Here comes Mothra

http://img847.imageshack.us/f/fallout.jpg/http://imageftw.com/uploads/20110312/1299913314162.jpg
http://img847.imageshack.us/f/fallout.jpg/

It seems this map is a hoax

http://www.infiniteunknown.net/2011/03/12/japan-fallout-map-from-destroyed-fukushima-daiichi-nuclear-plant/

Phillip Allen
03-12-2011, 11:28 PM
somewhere there is an individual responsible for this hoax (if it is)...I want to know a satisfying explanation of motive

purri
03-12-2011, 11:52 PM
Don't blame Mothra, Gorgo did it.

S/V Laura Ellen
03-12-2011, 11:57 PM
somewhere there is an individual responsible for this hoax (if it is)...I want to know a satisfying explanation of motive

Which hoax are you discussing here, the map or one of TylerDurden's numerous hoaxes?:d

PeterSibley
03-13-2011, 12:05 AM
The wind direction seems OK...this is from Oceanweather .


http://pic40.picturetrail.com/VOL282/9443996/17245530/395682055.jpg

skuthorp
03-13-2011, 01:55 AM
At 5.30 AEST:
"The Japanese government says meltdowns may have occurred in nuclear reactors at the earthquake-hit Fukushima power plant and operator Tokyo Electric Power Co says radiation levels around the plant have risen above the safety limit.
TEPCO says the rise in radiation levels at the plant does not mean an "immediate threat" to human health, but chief cabinet secretary Yukio Edano says it is possible the radioactive cores of the two damaged reactors have already started to melt.
"We do believe that there is a possibility that meltdown has occurred, it is inside the reactor, we can't see," he said."
A level 4 incident in two reactors now.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2011/03/13/3162752.htm

Japanese government is giving warnings as I type this. Cross your fingers everyone.

George.
03-13-2011, 04:26 AM
"We do believe that there is a possibility that meltdown has occurred. It is inside the reactor. We can't see. However, we are assuming that a meltdown has occurred," he said of the No. 1 reactor. "And with reactor No. 3, we are also assuming that the possibility of a meltdown as we carry out measures."

But don't worry, it's all under control. We are about to deploy our secret revenge weapons.

Governments... that's why I don't trust nukes. Because I don't trust governments.

Phillip Allen
03-13-2011, 04:32 AM
But don't worry, it's all under control. We are about to deploy our secret revenge weapons.

Governments... that's why I don't trust nukes. Because I don't trust governments.

wise thinking, George...the trick for government here is to reveal the disaster a little at a time...sort of like boiling the proverbial frog

PeterSibley
03-13-2011, 05:33 AM
Why does that remind me of corporate coal and GW ...don't worry there's no problem , we'd tell you if there was .

willmarsh3
03-13-2011, 05:47 AM
Which hoax are you discussing here, the map or one of TylerDurden's numerous hoaxes?:d

Were talking about the map. I'm thinking worst case would be a spread of fallout the size of Chernobyl.

George.
03-13-2011, 05:48 AM
wise thinking, George...the trick for government here is to reveal the disaster a little at a time...sort of like boiling the proverbial frog


Yes. I might be more supportive of nukes if I thought that as soon as something goes wrong the public would be kept reliably informed.

In a free society, it should be MY decision whether to get out of town. Not some bureaucrat's, or some operational manual's.

BTW, you are up early, aren't you, Phil?

WX
03-13-2011, 05:54 AM
Just to make it more interesting, one of the nuclear plants is using a Plutonium mix fuel.

Phillip Allen
03-13-2011, 05:56 AM
Yes. I might be more supportive of nukes if I thought that as soon as something goes wrong the public would be kept reliably informed.

In a free society, it should be MY decision whether to get out of town. Not some bureaucrat's, or some operational manual's.

BTW, you are up early, aren't you, Phil?

read the "hunting in my attic" thread...the monsters woke me at 0300...AGAIN! (I think they were having a dance and invited everybody but me)
http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?128155-Drat...I-m-gonna-have-to-go-hunting-in-my-attic

George.
03-13-2011, 06:02 AM
Aaah, I see. You are trapping small mammals.

I had to get used to their sounds on the ceiling - at least they don't get over the bedroom, 'cause I sealed that ceiling space very well. But the other day I managed to sleep through a big tree rat foraging inside the bedroom - nothing could be done before morning. The tricky bit was getting Sil to fall asleep... :D

Phillip Allen
03-13-2011, 06:06 AM
Aaah, I see. You are trapping small mammals.

I had to get used to their sounds on the ceiling - at least they don't get over the bedroom, 'cause I sealed that ceiling space very well. But the other day I managed to sleep through a big tree rat foraging inside the bedroom - nothing could be done before morning. The tricky bit was getting Sil to fall asleep... :D
and I thought Sil was a jungle woman! :) (be sure and tell her I said that... :)

George.
03-13-2011, 06:07 AM
Well, she did go back to sleep eventually...

Phillip Allen
03-13-2011, 06:11 AM
Well, she did go back to sleep eventually...

I think I will too...

George.
03-13-2011, 06:21 AM
I bet it's easier to sleep with a coon scratching in the attic than with that staysail boom snatching right over your bunk.

BTW, that fine book of yours had recipes for coon, didn't it? This could turn out profitable, as long as you don't resort to poison.

WX
03-13-2011, 06:37 AM
Any comment on loose Plutonium, anybody? You guys are down wind...if it blows high enough. Remember the explosive laden balloons?

seanz
03-13-2011, 06:44 AM
Eh? what? Last I heard the containment hadn't failed.

I know about the balloons......but it was incendiaries not explosives.

genglandoh
03-13-2011, 10:45 AM
See the CNN video below.

They are pumping sea water into the containment building but not into the reactor. So the outside of the reactor is being cooled but not the inside.

Looking at the pic are #1 is the reactor and the white space around the reactor is filled with sea water.

But and this is a big but the inside of the reactor is low on cooling water and my guess it is getting hotter.

There is still a very real potential of a complete meltdown of the reactor.
And I would like to repeat that no one knows what would happen if there is a complete meltdown.

If you have any friends in Japan have then go upwind and as far away as possible from the reactor.

http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/03/13/japan.nuclear.reactors/index.html?hpt=T1&iref=BN1

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6a/Schema_reacteur_eau_bouillante.svg/450px-Schema_reacteur_eau_bouillante.svg.png

Phillip Allen
03-13-2011, 10:56 AM
See the CNN video below.

They are pumping sea water into the containment building but not into the reactor. So the outside of the reactor is being cooled but not the inside.

Looking at the pic are #1 is the reactor and the white space around the reactor is filled with sea water.

But and this is a big but the inside of the reactor is low on cooling water and my guess it is getting hotter.

There is still a very real potential of a complete meltdown of the reactor.
And I would like to repeat that no one knows what would happen if there is a complete meltdown.

If you have any friends in Japan have then go upwind and as far away as possible from the reactor.

http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/03/13/japan.nuclear.reactors/index.html?hpt=T1&iref=BN1

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6a/Schema_reacteur_eau_bouillante.svg/450px-Schema_reacteur_eau_bouillante.svg.png

it might prevent a fire from spreading but will destroy all auxiliary equipment...an indication that they don't believe there's anything to save

it is possible that the rx vessel has already blown it's bonnet and in that case, sea water may reach the core materials

containment and subsequent clean up will be mind boggling...radio active isotopes to clean up will just about represent the entire periodic table

Dan McCosh
03-13-2011, 11:02 AM
Dunno if anyone has pointed out that now there are two reactors in danger of meltdown, and a total of five in trouble.

George.
03-13-2011, 11:31 AM
Lemme see if I understand this: the core is overheating. As a last resort, they are pouring sea water on it to cool it. It is still not cooling, so presumably they are pumping as much cold sea water to it as they can.

Now the question: what are they doing with the "used" sea water, presumably an enormous amount?

Second question: how do you evacuate 200,000 people from a region where roads and airports just got washed away?

Paul Girouard
03-13-2011, 11:43 AM
Now the question: what are they doing with the "used" sea water, presumably an enormous amount?

Second question: how do you evacuate 200,000 people from a region where roads and airports just got washed away?



The cooling water is outside of the containment chamber in theory , so the bad stuff if basically in "pipes" and the cooling water is outside of the pipes , they are not co-mingled. So the water isn't contaminated , in theory. What the reality is , who knows.

Second question : more than likely very slowly.

ishmael
03-13-2011, 11:44 AM
This isn't good. It sounds like they have several reactor cores going critical. Not good.

Let's hope they figure out some solutions!

Paul Girouard
03-13-2011, 11:44 AM
Dunno if anyone has pointed out that now there are two reactors in danger of meltdown, and a total of five in trouble.


They are saying three in possible melt down.

Phillip Allen
03-13-2011, 11:50 AM
rx operate on the very knife-edge of safety...it's the nature of the beast. With that in mind, all kinds of crisis scenarios are planned for within some "budget". I expect that profit and bonuses are found in the money saving (and subsequent redistributing) involved in keeping the accident planning as cheap as possible. It is quite possible, I think, for that extra 3 or 4 meters of elevation on the emergency generators to have been spent on Ping golf clubs, Geishas and sushi

for instance...if there is such a huge tsunami that the generators are covered, the "people" will be worrying about other things and we can cover up more easily

now ask me if I'm a cynic

Phillip Allen
03-13-2011, 11:51 AM
They are saying three in possible melt down.

that'll cause the rates to go up faster than the cost of memberships to a Tokyo country club

George Jung
03-13-2011, 12:28 PM
Disaster on such a scale, it's difficult to wrap ones mind around it. When your traditional enemies (korea/china) are sending help - and Japan is accepting it - it offers an inkling.

I'm unsure the scale of effort this will require for cleanup, not to mention the process of rebuilding, and I'd suspect areas where entire villages were destroyed, perhaps never to be rebuilt. BTW, did they ever recover that train?

Japans economy has been strapped for quite some time. Might this tip them over the edge? Then you have to look at how that affects the rest of the world.

Paul Girouard
03-13-2011, 12:32 PM
BTW, did they ever recover that train?



Last I heard there where 4 trains missing. More than likely sweep out to sea.

skuthorp
03-13-2011, 12:37 PM
Our 4am news (my turn not to sleep Phillip) says 3 too, and an active volcano causing grief. The japanese have been preparing for this sort of disaster for a generation. I have been wondering how we'd manage, not well I think. How do you reckon preparations in the US compare?

genglandoh
03-13-2011, 12:39 PM
Last I heard there where 4 trains missing. More than likely sweep out to sea.
The train runs along the coast from Sendai to Ishinomaki.
Last year I was in Ishinomaki for 8 weeks and was on the train many times.
I would guess the trains are sweep out to sea and all are gone.

yzer
03-13-2011, 12:45 PM
"This is not a serious public health issue at the moment," Malcolm Crick, Secretary of the U.N. Scientific Committee on the Effects of Atomic Radiation, told Reuters.


"It won't be anything like Chernobyl. There the reactor was operating at full power when it exploded and it had no containment," he said. As a precaution, around 140,000 people have been evacuated from the area around Fukushima.
Crick said a partial meltdown of the Three Mile Island plant in the United States in 1979 -- rated more serious than Japan's accident on an international scale -- released low amounts of radiation.


"Many people thought they'd been exposed after Three Mile Island," he said. "The radiation levels were detectible but in terms of human health it was nothing." Radiation can cause cancers.


The World Health Organization (WHO) also said the public health risk from Japan's atomic plants remained "quite low." The quake and devastating tsunami may have killed 10,000 people.


http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/03/13/us-japan-quake-health-idUSTRE72C2OS20110313

George Jung
03-13-2011, 12:48 PM
I thought they were predicting 10,000 from one village alone.

Numbers, just guesses, really. Taking all these unresolved questions, the death toll differential may be logarithmic, as well.

genglandoh
03-13-2011, 12:55 PM
This is a good video showing the type of buildings and homes in the area effected.

Notice the many hills in the background if they had some warning they could have gotten to higher ground.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBJCI77AoSI&feature=related

skuthorp
03-13-2011, 12:56 PM
I agree George, locally Japan's problems will extend to power and food, all those farms and fishing fleets wiped out.

George Jung
03-13-2011, 12:57 PM
Being limited in background in finance/global economics, the first thought that came to mind was 'domino effect'. That term seems to rub some wrong here (not sure why), and

it's likely not accurate - but while the personal and national disaster that shadows Japan is primary, I'm concerned about what lies in store for all of us.

Paul Girouard
03-13-2011, 12:59 PM
This is a good video showing the type of buildings and homes in the area effected.

Notice the many hills in the background if they had some warning they could have gotten to higher ground.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBJCI77AoSI&feature=related

This must be video from your visit? What was the time line from quake to the Tsunami making land fall? Anyone have that info?

Dan McCosh
03-13-2011, 12:59 PM
rx operate on the very knife-edge of safety...it's the nature of the beast. With that in mind, all kinds of crisis scenarios are planned for within some "budget". I expect that profit and bonuses are found in the money saving (and subsequent redistributing) involved in keeping the accident planning as cheap as possible. It is quite possible, I think, for that extra 3 or 4 meters of elevation on the emergency generators to have been spent on Ping golf clubs, Geishas and sushi

for instance...if there is such a huge tsunami that the generators are covered, the "people" will be worrying about other things and we can cover up more easily

now ask me if I'm a cynic A cynic would note the relative efficiency, precautions, and general concern for safety in Japanese industrial facilities and compare them to the U.S. There is no comparison.

Paul Girouard
03-13-2011, 01:01 PM
Being limited in background in finance/global economics, the first thought that came to mind was 'domino effect'. That term seems to rub some wrong here (not sure why), and

it's likely not accurate - but while the personal and national disaster that shadows Japan is primary,

I'm concerned about what lies in store for all of us.




Yes, Domino effect , and trickle down , two terms , or sayings that have some chaffing effect on WBF.

I think "concerned" is putting it mildly!

genglandoh
03-13-2011, 01:02 PM
This must be video from your visit? What was the time line from quake to the Tsunami making land fall? Anyone have that info?

No I did no take a video during my trip.
It is a video of a special steam engine train ride, but it does show the area effected.

George Jung
03-13-2011, 01:02 PM
How so, Dan? I take it the US is considerably more lax? And as they've made such a point on the engineering, and adherence to standards, in Japanese construction, I'd imagine the US behind there, as well?

Japan building on the most active seismic site in the Pacific Basin demands such standards - and even with such adherence, getting a smackdown can't be avoided.

George Jung
03-13-2011, 01:04 PM
Yes, Domino effect , and trickle down , two terms , or sayings that have some chaffing effect on WBF.

I think "concerned" is putting it mildly!


Finding terminology that chafes many here in the Bilge is one of my many gifts.

And I'm not even working at it!

yzer
03-13-2011, 01:10 PM
This must be video from your visit? What was the time line from quake to the Tsunami making land fall? Anyone have that info?
The epicenter of this quake was 80 miles offshore of Sendai. A tsunami travels at 500 MPH. The tsunami hit Sendai 6 minutes after the quake started.

Paul Girouard
03-13-2011, 01:15 PM
The epicenter of this quake was 80 miles offshore of Sendai. A tsunami travels at 500 MPH. The tsunami hit Sendai 6 minutes after the quake started.



Not a lot of time to react , 6 minutes!! Wow!

genglandoh
03-13-2011, 01:19 PM
The epicenter of this quake was 80 miles offshore of Sendai. A tsunami travels at 500 MPH. The tsunami hit Sendai 6 minutes after the quake started.

I was working at the Nippon Paper Mill in Ishinomaki right on the coast.
If I was smart enough to go to the closest hill it would have taken me at least 30 mins.
My guess is that I would have left the plant and would have been in a taxi when the wave hit.
I do not think a taxi would be very much protection from the wall of water that hit the town

So far I have not had any contact with the mill and I am praying they stayed in the plants larger buildings.

Ted Hoppe
03-13-2011, 01:22 PM
Japanese officials are saying if you think you have been exposed to radiation take a shower as soon as you can and put your clothes in a plastic bag and you will minimize your exposure. Seems reasonable advice... but there is no fresh water and the stores are out of plastic bags.

Paul Girouard
03-13-2011, 01:22 PM
George did you notice this,

http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=qybUFnY7Y8w

Canoeyawls thread: http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?128196-What-are-you-building

Fits the domino theory in Japan.

yzer
03-13-2011, 01:33 PM
I still have iodine pills in a sealed container. I got those during the Chernobyl disaster because measurable amounts of the radiation hit northern California. Dairy production was halted here for a week or two as a precaution. As it happened, the radiation was measurable, but not harmful to health.

Nanoose
03-13-2011, 01:34 PM
Probably a silly question...but...

So the tsunami wiped out the diesel backup generators (I'm thankful they build to standards such that being hit by a +/- 25ft. wall of water only killed the generators). Why haven't they helicoptered in replacement generators from Tokyo (etc.) and hooked 'em up to pump...oh.....wait....there's no fresh water to pump, right?

Nanoose
03-13-2011, 01:34 PM
Please explain the iodine pills.

yzer
03-13-2011, 01:38 PM
The generators are huge and the power must be converted to AC before the pumps can use it. There is no easy way to plug that power into the plant electrical system. It was easier and quicker to provide cooling water directly from a fire engine's pumps.

Phillip Allen
03-13-2011, 01:39 PM
Please explain the iodine pills.

I think they are to saturate your system with iodine that's NOT raido active to displace that which is...yes?

Nanoose
03-13-2011, 01:40 PM
So, the internalized radioactivity binds with iodine...is that the principle?

yzer
03-13-2011, 01:44 PM
The most dangerous radiation from an incident like this comes in the form of radioactive iodine, which is quickly absorbed by the thyroid gland, often with fatal results. Taking an iodine pill saturates the thyroid with non-radioactive iodine. Taken before exposure to radioactive fallout, the pills prevent the thyroid from uptaking any more iodine. It's not a healthy thing to do, but it beats the alternative. Iodine pills were widely distributed in the USSR and parts of Europe after Chernobyl. They are being distributed in Japan as a precaution, I heard.

Phillip Allen
03-13-2011, 01:51 PM
I agree George, locally Japan's problems will extend to power and food, all those farms and fishing fleets wiped out.

what will happen to the farms in the next few years after all that salt water?

Paul Girouard
03-13-2011, 01:53 PM
Probably a silly question...but...

So the tsunami wiped out the diesel backup generators (I'm thankful they build to standards such that being hit by a +/- 25ft. wall of water only killed the generators). Why haven't they helicoptered in replacement generators from Tokyo (etc.) and hooked 'em up to pump...oh.....wait....there's no fresh water to pump, right?


Part of it I'd think , no fresh water , sea waters available , the plants are "junk" now anyway so any harm the salt water would do be is moot.

Paul Girouard
03-13-2011, 01:56 PM
Yzer what's your back ground in this , you seem to have some pretty good knowledge of Nuke plants and other related issues?

yzer
03-13-2011, 01:57 PM
what will happen to the farms in the next few years after all that salt water?Not much. Islands in the California Delta have levee breaks once in a while. These islands are flooded by saltwater for a couple of months before they are dewatered. Farmers growing crops on them the next season.

yzer
03-13-2011, 02:04 PM
Yzer what's your back ground in this , you seem to have some pretty good knowledge of Nuke plants and other related issues?I'm interested in nuclear power. I've had serendipitous experiences with tsunamis and earthquakes. My parents retired in Crescent City, CA., which has a history of tsunamis that sparked my interest. I also studied geomorphology at the university. I was aboard a ship about 1/3 the way between San Francisco and Honolulu when the tsunami from the 1964 Alaskan quake passed underneath. That tsunami nearly destroyed Crescent City.

Phillip Allen
03-13-2011, 02:05 PM
The most dangerous radiation from an incident like this comes in the form of radioactive iodine, which is quickly absorbed by the thyroid gland, often with fatal results. Taking an iodine pill saturates the thyroid with non-radioactive iodine. Taken before exposure to radioactive fallout, the pills prevent the thyroid from uptaking any more iodine. It's not a healthy thing to do, but it beats the alternative. Iodine pills were widely distributed in the USSR and parts of Europe after Chernobyl. They are being distributed in Japan as a precaution, I heard.

YAY! I remembered something right after over 40 years...!

Ross M
03-13-2011, 02:06 PM
I believe the seawater is being injected into the reactor, not just the containment. Why bother mixing in boron if it can't get to the fuel?

Paul Girouard
03-13-2011, 02:10 PM
I'm interested in nuclear power. I've had serendipitous experiences with tsunamis and earthquakes. My parents retired in Crescent City, CA., which has a history of tsunamis that sparked my interest. I also studied geomorphology at the university. I was aboard a ship about 1/3 the way between San Francisco and Honolulu when the tsunami from the 1964 Alaskan quake passed underneath. That tsunami nearly destroyed Crescent City.



Ah, I see! Sort of a mixed blessing to have someone who's has this knowledge to share when thinks go sideways like they have in this case.

What was surfing on that tsunami like on the ship? Did you know it was coming? Any prep taken other than the normal "at sea posture " any prudent Skipper would have in place while underway?

George.
03-13-2011, 02:17 PM
Japans economy has been strapped for quite some time. Might this tip them over the edge?

Or maybe the rebuilding will provide a Keynesian stimulus and get it humming again.

yzer
03-13-2011, 02:26 PM
Ah, I see! Sort of a mixed blessing to have someone who's has this knowledge to share when thinks go sideways like they have in this case.

What was surfing on that tsunami like on the ship? Did you know it was coming? Any prep taken other than the normal "at sea posture " any prudent Skipper would have in place while underway?It was in the middle of the night and I slept through it. The captain got on the horn just before I hit the sack and told us what was going to happen in a few hours. We were told to stay in our staterooms, keep out of the passageways and off the decks just in case. I talked to people who stayed up all night and they noticed nothing.

At sea, a tsunami resembles a very gradual increase and decrease in elevation, like driving up and down a long shallow hill.

C. Ross
03-13-2011, 02:30 PM
The Japanese have been engaged in a Keynesian stimulus ever since their real estate-based Bubble Economy burst in the mid-eighties. Hasn't worked there, either.

genglandoh
03-13-2011, 09:44 PM
NHK: Japan's nuclear safety and industrial agency report explosion at Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant's No. 3 reactor.

It sounds like the same problem as No1 reactor.
Reactor gets hot creates hydrogen gas, they vent the gas out of the reactor into the containment building.
Then a spark causes the gas to explode.

Chip-skiff
03-13-2011, 09:58 PM
Posted this on Peter Sibley's thread, but it fits better here. Some details on the nuclear crisis, from several news reports:

Yesterday, reactor #1 at Fukushima Daiichi sustained a hydrogen explosion (superheated water emits hydrogen gas). Currently, reactor #3 at the same plant is also having serious problems. This reactor arouses particular concern because it's powered by plutonium fuel with a reaction that's hotter and is more unstable than the more common reactor fuels.

Officials are also fighting to prevent the explosion/meltdown of three additional reactors at a different plant, known as Fukushima No. 2.

The U.S. Department of Energy has been considering plutonium fuel (MOX) for reactors owned by the Tennessee Valley Authority. Also, there are 23 reactors in the U.S. which have the same design as the ones under threat of meltdown in Japan.

This is a terrible situation for those who have suffered destruction from the quake and tsunami, that might keep them away from homes, farms, and businesses, even the undamaged ones, for a very long time indeed.

genglandoh
03-13-2011, 10:41 PM
Report: Seven people are missing and three people have been injured by the explosion at the Fukushima 1 nuclear plant, the AFP news agency reports, quoting an official from Tepco, the company which operates the plant.

The power plant workers who are at these plants are heroes, risking their lives to save others.
I wonder if I would have the guts to do the same.

WX
03-13-2011, 11:19 PM
Report: Seven people are missing and three people have been injured by the explosion at the Fukushima 1 nuclear plant, the AFP news agency reports, quoting an official from Tepco, the company which operates the plant.

The power plant workers who are at these plants are heroes, risking their lives to save others.
I wonder if I would have the guts to do the same.
Exchange your overtime for a death sentence? Brave men indeed.

yzer
03-14-2011, 02:49 AM
NHK: Japan's nuclear safety and industrial agency report explosion at Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant's No. 3 reactor.

It sounds like the same problem as No1 reactor.
Reactor gets hot creates hydrogen gas, they vent the gas out of the reactor into the containment building.
Then a spark causes the gas to explode.These old Japanese BWR units have a pressure vessel that serves as a containment. Hydrogen gas escapes the overheated pressure vessel cooling system and is trapped under the weather shell (that blue shell you see with the pretty white decorations) where it can explode as it mixes with oxygen or a spark source. The weather shell is not intended to function as a containment. It is protection from weather only. This is what has scared the shiite out many people who watched the exploding nuclear plant video. It is a hydrogen explosion, not nuclear and disperses no radioactive material. TV news editors may want viewers to think otherwise.

Take a look at US reactors (including old BWR types) sometime. The pressure vessel also serves as a containment but in addition you have a heavy, strong, domed structure covering it instead of that lightweight boxy weather shell. We are talking about several feet of structural material v. millimeters of siding material. This domed structure functions as a second containment. This is a feature demanded by the NRC and is not required of those reactor types in Japan.

George.
03-14-2011, 03:02 AM
It is a hydrogen explosion, not nuclear and disperses no radioactive material. TV news editors may want viewers to think otherwise.


Even those of us who are cynical about TV editors cannot help but notice that many people in Japan have been tested positive for radiation exposure, and the government itself admits that "some" radioactive material has leaked out. The containment systems apparently have not been containing everything. The government officials contradict themselves every couple of hours about all this. So it is not all so clean cut.

Put it this way. If you and your kids lived within 50 miles of that place, would you be calmly explaining to them that there is no reason to panic, or would you be packing the car?

George.
03-14-2011, 03:08 AM
The US Navy just answered my question. It is moving its kids away:


... the US military, which has been helping the relief effort, said it had moved its ships and aircraft away from the area after one of its aircraft carriers detected low-level radiation about 100 miles (160km) offshore.

skuthorp
03-14-2011, 04:28 AM
Some very brave and very selfless people are doing their best at the cost of their lives probably. I hope their sacrifice is successful and that they are honoured everywhere.
Even if so the Japanese power grid is down by 20% and it will be a while before that improves, their local food industry is badly damaged and the flooded areas will not be of use for many years if ever. Then there's the clean up. They'll need some serious assistance for some time.

Phillip Allen
03-14-2011, 07:09 AM
These old Japanese BWR units have a pressure vessel that serves as a containment. Hydrogen gas escapes the overheated pressure vessel cooling system and is trapped under the weather shell (that blue shell you see with the pretty white decorations) where it can explode as it mixes with oxygen or a spark source. The weather shell is not intended to function as a containment. It is protection from weather only. This is what has scared the shiite out many people who watched the exploding nuclear plant video. It is a hydrogen explosion, not nuclear and disperses no radioactive material. TV news editors may want viewers to think otherwise.

Take a look at US reactors (including old BWR types) sometime. The pressure vessel also serves as a containment but in addition you have a heavy, strong, domed structure covering it instead of that lightweight boxy weather shell. We are talking about several feet of structural material v. millimeters of siding material. This domed structure functions as a second containment. This is a feature demanded by the NRC and is not required of those reactor types in Japan.

(sigh) Any explosion a dirty plant disperses radiation...that is a "Dr Spin" argument

genglandoh
03-14-2011, 07:17 AM
The fuel rods are fully exposed, all of the cooling water is gone and the sea water is not getting into the reactor.
I looks like a full meltdown is next. The fuel rods will continue to heat up and melt through the reactor bottom hit the open air and release lots of nuclear material.
This will be very bad.

If you think of this like a water heater. The water heater (reactor) has no water (cooling water) but the heating element (fuel rods) are still hot and getting hotter. There is no way to get water into the water heater to cool off the heating elements so you flood your basement with sea water hoping the cold water on the outside of the water heater will cool off the heating element on the inside.

This is not a very good way to cool off a heating element but it was their only hope.

Phillip Allen
03-14-2011, 07:20 AM
The fuel rods are fully exposed, all of the cooling water is gone and the sea water is not getting into the reactor.
I looks like a full meltdown is next. The fuel rods will continue to heat up and melt through the reactor bottom hit the open air and release lots of nuclear material.
This will be very bad.

If you think of this like a water heater. The water heater (reactor) has no water (cooling water) but the heating element (fuel rods) are still hot and getting hotter. There is no way to get water into the water heater to cool off the heating elements so you flood your basement with sea water hoping the cold water on the outside of the water heater will cool off the heating element on the inside.

This is not a very good way to cool off a heating element but it was their only hope.
if there is no water at all in the fuel matrix, there will be no moderated neutrons and thus, less heat

genglandoh
03-14-2011, 07:36 AM
if there is no water at all in the fuel matrix, there will be no moderated neutrons and thus, less heat

Yes I know that the water in the reactor slows down the neutrons so they will work better in creating heat.

The issue is the fuel core is already very very hot and if the water is removed the heat will melt the fuel core.
It takes days to cool down a reactor even after the unit is not generating new heat.
The question is has the fuel core cooled off below the melting point of the metals used?

Phillip Allen
03-14-2011, 07:38 AM
Yes I know that the water in the reactor slows down the neutrons so they will work better in creating heat.

The issue is the fuel core is already very very hot and if the water is removed the heat will melt the fuel core.
It takes days to cool down a reactor even after the unit is not generating new heat.
The question is has the fuel core cooled off below the melting point of the metals used?

there will be "hot spots" I believe...beyond that, I don't know

I expect all the RTD's will have been destroyed by now...hard to measure

Phillip Allen
03-14-2011, 07:41 AM
it's bad, Dutch. NO one of any penetration at all is denying that...please don't channel TD as it doesn't help and only adds confusion

genglandoh
03-14-2011, 07:42 AM
there will be "hot spots" I believe...beyond that, I don't know

I would guess all the temp sensors are gone and the control system is down, so even the plant engineers do not know what is happening inside the reactor.

Phillip Allen
03-14-2011, 07:45 AM
yep

genglandoh
03-14-2011, 07:53 AM
Yes I know that the water in the reactor slows down the neutrons so they will work better in creating heat.

The issue is the fuel core is already very very hot and if the water is removed the heat will melt the fuel core.
It takes days to cool down a reactor even after the unit is not generating new heat.
The question is has the fuel core cooled off below the melting point of the metals used?

Sorry Phillip I did not intend to sound rude with my answer.
I have been watching the events in Japan because I spent 8 weeks last year at the paper mill last year and I still have not gotten any word about the people I worked with. So I am very tired and my typing skills are not the best.

Phillip Allen
03-14-2011, 08:04 AM
Sorry Phillip I did not intend to sound rude with my answer.
I have been watching the events in Japan because I spent 8 weeks last year at the paper mill last year and I still have not gotten any word about the people I worked with. So I am very tired and my typing skills are not the best.

thanks but I wasn't offended...I write for the lurkers who don't respond and you offered a better explanation I supposed for the same reason...not everyone knows how it works

Phillip Allen
03-14-2011, 10:29 AM
thanks phillip. when I want to know how to build a brick bbq pit Ill let you know - until then I ll follow what the nuclear experts are reporting.

just what nuc experts have you consulted with?

TimH
03-14-2011, 10:42 AM
http://www.kiddofspeed.com/chapter1.html

TimH
03-14-2011, 10:45 AM
I just looked and the nuclear plants in Cali (on the San Andreas fault) are built to withstand a 7.5 quake.

The SF quake of 1906 was an 8.3.

Illinois Site of the largest quake in recorded history) is chock full of nuclear plants.

yzer
03-14-2011, 12:20 PM
Oh, man. I hate to see this happen. Let's just hope these plants don't do a full meltdown. Bright side of a bad situation: partial meltdowns, no major radiation releases.

We have learned an incredible lot during the 40 years since these plants were designed and built. We have a much improved understanding earthquakes and tsunamis and how these risks affect what we build. We also have also gone a long way in the design of nuclear power plants. A good example is the Westinghouse AP 1000. With passive safety systems this PWR can achieve a safe shutdown and cool itself without operator action or electrical power.

http://www.ap1000.westinghousenuclear.com/ap1000_safety.html

RonW
03-14-2011, 12:26 PM
With out reading 4 pages, I think there may have already been 2 total meltdowns and explosions one being friday, and possibly 4 more ready to blow..
The U.S.S. ronald reagan has to stay 100 miles from shore due to fall out..
This is much more serious then is being reported..


http://www.infowars.com/second-explosion-at-crippled-japanese-nuke-plant/

TimH
03-14-2011, 12:42 PM
We have learned an incredible lot during the 40 years since these plants were designed and built. We have a much improved understanding earthquakes and tsunamis and how these risks affect what we build. We also have also gone a long way in the design of nuclear power plants. A good example is the Westinghouse AP 1000. With passive safety systems this PWR can achieve a safe shutdown and cool itself without operator action or electrical power.

http://www.ap1000.westinghousenuclear.com/ap1000_safety.html


And in 40 years we will know a hell of a lot more than we do today.

Stupid to be building things with the potential to render huge swaths of the earths surface uninhabitable for hundreds of years when we are taking short cuts and dont have enough information to make informed decisions.

Chernobyl will be uninhabitable for between 300 and 900 years. Thats a long time.

And I ask the question how many of these disasters can we have before there is a cumulative effect on the whole earths population?

Oyvind Snibsoer
03-14-2011, 12:46 PM
Any comment on loose Plutonium, anybody? You guys are down wind...if it blows high enough. Remember the explosive laden balloons?

The most dangerous nuclear fallout isotopes are iodine-131, caesium-137 and strontium-90.

As mentioned by others, iodine-137 concentrates in the thyroid. Caesium-137 is chemically very similar to potassium, and is absorbed by muscle tissue, while strontium-90 mimics calcium and is absorbed by bone tissue.

Plutonium, OTOH, is hugely overrated as a hazard. While useful for making nuclear bombs, and as a reactor fuel, it's quite dissimilar to any of the vital minerals and will mostly pass harmlessly through the body. Chemically, it's supposedly about as poisonous as caffeine. Radiation-wise, it's a fairly weak alpha emitter, which means that the particles are stopped by the skin. If allowed to linger in the body, of course, it will cause harm through persistent radiation, but Pu that is either eaten or inhaled should be expelled by the body before much harm is done.

There's an excellent, and sobering, paper on the dangers of Plutonium here: https://e-reports-ext.llnl.gov/pdf/226138.pdf

elf
03-14-2011, 01:50 PM
From the staid and cautious old NYT

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/15/world/asia/15nuclear.html?_r=1&hp


TOKYO — Japan’s struggle to contain the crisis at a stricken nuclear power plant worsened sharply early Tuesday morning, as emergency operations to pump seawater into one crippled reactor failed at least temporarily, increasing the risk of an uncontrolled release of radioactive material, officials said.

With the cooling systems malfunctioning simultaneously at three separate reactors at the Fukushima Daiichi Nuclear Power Station after the powerful earthquake and tsunami, the acute crisis developed late Monday at reactor No. 2 of the plant, where a series of problems thwarted efforts to keep the core of the reactor covered with water — a step considered crucial to preventing the reactor’s containment vessel from exploding and preventing the fuel inside it from melting down.

The plant’s operator, Tokyo Electric Power, said late Monday that repeated efforts to inject seawater into the reactor had failed, causing water levels inside the reactor’s containment vessel to fall and exposing its fuel rods. After what at first appeared to be a successful bid to refill the vessel, water levels again dwindled, this time to critical levels, exposing the rods almost completely, company executives said.

Workers were having difficulty injecting seawater into the reactor because its vents — necessary to release pressure in the containment vessel by allowing radioactive steam to escape — had stopped working properly, they said.

The more time that passes with fuel rods uncovered by water and the pressure inside the containment vessel unvented, the greater the risk that the containment vessel will crack or explode, creating a potentially catastrophic release of radioactive material into the atmosphere — an accident that would be by far the worst to confront the nuclear power industry since the explosion of the Chernobyl nuclear power plant 25 years ago.

In reactor No. 2, which is now the most damaged of the three at the Daiichi plant, at least parts of the fuel rods have been exposed for several hours, which also suggests that some of the fuel has begun to melt. If more of the fuel melts before water can be injected in the vessel, the fuel pellets could burn through the bottom of the containment vessel and radioactive material could pour out that way — often referred to as a full meltdown.

“They’re basically in a full-scale panic” among Japanese power industry managers, said a senior nuclear industry executive late Monday night. The executive is not involved in managing the response to the reactors’ difficulties but has many contacts in Japan. “They’re in total disarray, they don’t know what to do.”

The extreme challenge of managing reactor No. 2 came as officials were still struggling to keep the cores of two other reactors, No. 1 and No. 3, covered with seawater. There was no immediate indication that either of those two reactors had experienced a crisis as serious as that at No. 2.

But part of the outer structure housing reactor No. 3 exploded earlier on Monday, as did the structure surrounding reactor No. 1 on Saturday. Live footage on public broadcaster NHK showed the skeletal remains of the reactor building and thick smoke rising from the building. Eleven people had been injured in the blast, one seriously, officials said.

Chief Cabinet Secretary Yukio Edano said earlier Monday that the release of large amounts of radiation as a result of the explosion was unlikely. But traces of radiation could be released into the atmosphere, and about 500 people who remained within a 12-mile radius were ordered temporarily to take cover indoors, he said.

Mr. Edano and other senior officials did not immediately address the threat of radioactive release from reactor No. 2.

The country’s nuclear power watchdog said readings taken soon after the explosion showed no big change in radiation levels around the plant or any damage to the steel containment vessel, which protects the radioactive material in the reactor.

“I have received reports that the containment vessel is sound,” Mr. Edano said. “I understand that there is little possibility that radioactive materials are being released in large amounts.”

In screenings, higher-than-normal levels of radiation have been detected from at least 22 people evacuated from near the plant, the nuclear safety watchdog said, but it is not clear if the doses they received were dangerous.

Technicians had been scrambling most of Sunday to fix a mechanical failure that left the reactor far more vulnerable to explosions.

The two reactors where the explosions occurred are both presumed to have already suffered partial meltdowns — a dangerous situation that, if unchecked, could lead to a full meltdown.

Hiroko Tabuchi reported from Tokyo, Keith Bradsher from Hong Kong and Matt Wald from Washington.

Phillip Allen
03-14-2011, 02:06 PM
Oh, man. I hate to see this happen. Let's just hope these plants don't do a full meltdown. Bright side of a bad situation: partial meltdowns, no major radiation releases.

We have learned an incredible lot during the 40 years since these plants were designed and built. We have a much improved understanding earthquakes and tsunamis and how these risks affect what we build. We also have also gone a long way in the design of nuclear power plants. A good example is the Westinghouse AP 1000. With passive safety systems this PWR can achieve a safe shutdown and cool itself without operator action or electrical power.

http://www.ap1000.westinghousenuclear.com/ap1000_safety.html

I'm not sure but I believe we've had natural convection plants since the 60's

elf
03-14-2011, 02:16 PM
If the poor guys there at Fukushima are actually doing what the various news sources are telling us, or even anything close to it, they're tragically brave and courageous to still be there on site. Denigrating their efforts as a "bad chinese(sic) firedrill" seems to me to be beyond arrogant and massively rude and disrespectful, especially when you can't even capitalize "Chinese".

Phillip Allen
03-14-2011, 02:18 PM
go getum Emily!

RonW
03-14-2011, 02:19 PM
Denigrating their efforts as a "bad chinese(sic) firedrill" seems to me to be beyond arrogant and massively rude and disrespectful. especially when you can't even capitalize "Chinese".

Yepp...this is very important news...glad you decided to bring it to our attention...

elf
03-14-2011, 02:28 PM
Disrespect is always important news. It always reflects poorly on those who exercise it.

Phillip Allen
03-14-2011, 02:43 PM
Disrespect is always important news. It always reflects poorly on those who exercise it.
I should pay more attention...I'll try

RonW
03-14-2011, 02:59 PM
Disrespect is always important news. It always reflects poorly on those who exercise it.

No it is not important...Japan is getting ready for the 3rd. meltdown, literally thousands of bodies are washed upon the beach. A lot of the island is with out electricity, nuclear fall out can kill thousands and the japaneese are in a real world of trouble and are definitely running around like a chineese fire drill, or to be more
politically correct like a bunch of chickens with their heads cut off. They don't know what to do..and you can't blame them..

And of course our liberal friends need to point out proper capitalization or see if they is any way something can be construed to be racist..
Liberals need to grow up....

Phillip Allen
03-14-2011, 03:05 PM
hmmm...

elf
03-14-2011, 03:08 PM
I'm glad you seem to realize that we can't blame them for not knowing what to do. That's a big first step towards being respectful. But your tone is still not respectful of them.

Proper use of the language has nothing to do with racism. It has to do with education and care.

RonW
03-14-2011, 03:21 PM
# 3
A hydrogen explosion occurred at the No. 3 reactor today,

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-03-14/hydrogen-explosion-occurs-at-nuclear-power-plant-135-miles-north-of-tokyo.html

Cuyahoga Chuck
03-14-2011, 03:26 PM
Yepp...this is very important news...glad you decided to bring it to our attention...

Please, please, tell me you weren't educated in Ohio!

Ted Hoppe
03-14-2011, 03:52 PM
This post is a great explanation about the reactor accidents in Japan. In the nuclear world, an accident is something much worse than an incident. An accident is an unexpected event that results in contamination or public hazard. A hydrogen means that radiation has been released to levels unknown or disclosed. (blog written by Ex-Navy nuclear engineer/officer)
*http://morgsatlarge.wordpress.com/2011/03/13/why-i-am-not-worried-about-japans-nuclear-reactors/

WX
03-14-2011, 05:39 PM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-12729221
Someone may have posted this already.

Tom Montgomery
03-14-2011, 07:01 PM
A second explosion (third overall) at reactor #2 has been reported in the last half hour. Inside of the reactor.

Reportedly, only 50 personnel remain at the facility. All other personnel have been evacuated.

This is as reported by CNN as of 8:00 pm EST.

purri
03-14-2011, 08:06 PM
Readings of 8000 microsieverts an hour! Run for the hills!

Dr. Arthur Trollingson
03-14-2011, 10:05 PM
A fourth reactor has caught fire, and radiation readings spiked afterward.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/ap_on_bi_ge/as_japan_earthquake_nuclear_crisis

LeeG
03-14-2011, 10:18 PM
It's time for the senior management of Tokyo Electric Power Company to do the honorable thing and commit seppuku, aka "harikiri."

that isn't even funny

elf
03-14-2011, 10:23 PM
How curious. One of our neo-cons thinks senior managment at Tokyo Electric Power is responsible for a 9. earthquake and 35 foot tsunami.

No wonder they can't govern.

skuthorp
03-14-2011, 10:54 PM
Our resident marketer for nuclear power was saying just this morning that there was nothing to worry about too.

Elf we live in a society where lawyers dictate that it's always someone elses fault when things go wrong, but when they go right it's the result of the individuals right to do anything he wants in the name of freedom.

Durnik
03-14-2011, 11:28 PM
A cities entire sewage flow converted to methane and converted to electricity provides barely enough juice to run the waste treatment plant alone. Nice idea, but humans don't produce anywhere near enough biomass to do much of anything. Actually, it takes waste from 3 collection plants to power just one of them:

http://www.sandiego.gov/mwwd/facilities/metrobiosolids.shtml

It takes heaps of Cow Manure in India to barely power one solitary "gober gas" cookstove. Now if we tried and harness the horsecrap spewed hourly in the bilge, maybe we'd be on to something. Too bad "arrogance" couldn't be used to run generators, why just two or three of you chief bilge-non-boat-owning a-holes could run the internet alone..

If every acre of areable land on the planet was used to sew and harvest rapeseed, the oil and biomass produced would service only a tiny fraction of the world's energy needs.

Biomass and Steam Power were around long before Nuclear. If it was so easy, nobody would have lifted a finger to develop Nuclear Power Plants (which are/were exceedingly difficult). Scientists and Engineers have been working very hard on the energy needs question now for over 100 years. Let's keep the "pie in the sky" solar/biomass dream in perspective. Sure, put up some panels and run your refrigerator, but I challenge you to invest in the real cost of a "home power plant" capable of running your 3hp table saw! At $5/watt (last year's cost of solar panel/watt produced), that's about $11K US to run your tablesaw.

Let's face it, if you want a "Biomass/Solar" world, you better learn to ride a horse, milk your own cow, and raise your own crops, and expect to starve half the year. It aint' easy.

I see you're adding tremendously to the "horsecrap spewed hourly in the bilge".. and not that it really matters, but I own two boats.. and neither a stinkpot.. there's nothing like sailing alone, at night, in the winter, under a full moon.. careful about shipping water in your boot tops pushing the dinghy out.. experience there.. ;-)

>If every acre of areable land on the planet was used to sew and harvest rapeseed, the oil and biomass produced would service only a tiny fraction of the world's energy needs.

you blew it with that one.. too many problems with it to even start commenting.. think about it for a minute.. really think..

>If it was so easy, nobody would have lifted a finger

Easy has little to do with how the world is run.. while who makes a profit has much.. try thinking again.. in the _real_ world.. nuclear, oil extraction & coal mining aren't easy.. Think much, do you?

>but I challenge you to invest in the real cost of a "home power plant" capable of running your 3hp table saw!

as it happens, I do work with an off-grid system that does power my 3hp saw.. but a 2hp saw does most of the work.. ;-)
and 11k can be cheap, when the option is a few miles of line.. and giving up right-of-way over your land..

>Too bad "arrogance" couldn't be used to run generators

yes, you'd have no need for a grid tie in.. bless your heart.. ;-)


> and expect to starve half the year.

no thanks, I have a brain.. food is easy to grow.. if one exercises a little bit o' the old grey matter..


>A cities entire sewage flow converted to methane and converted to electricity..

The subject isn't bio-solids.. directly.. I was referring to using the waste as fertilizer, if you will, to harness the sun & let a plant produce a food-stock.. Try reading what I wrote.. while on that subject, I said 'solar thermal', _not_ solar panel.. a 'wee' bit more complex, but much greater returns for the investment.. and still safe & clean.

Oh, remember those 'engineer' things.. I are one.. ;-)


and from other posts..

>Evil is risking the planet for the sake of things which are so trivial that we won't even remember them once they're consumed. If ever you've wanted a definition of "original sin," it's the orientation which allows this.

well said, TomF..


>Heating and cooling living space is the primary consumer, with much of the transportation network tied to housing patterns

Um, households in the U.S. account for less than 15% of power generated.. the rest is municipal/manufacturing/retail etc.. tho heating & cooling are the largest uses _within_ a house/domicile.. or was that what you meant?


>What if we don't do anything? In that case the mathematics are rather unforgiving. The problem of unsustainable humanity will self correct.

Bingo!


>the "Cash for Clunkers" program probably wasted more fuel than it saved.

"Cash for Clunkers" had nothing to do with "saving gas" and everything to do with forcing.., er, encouraging ;-) people to buy "more new stuff".. Rich folks needed more of the workers funds.. What it really did was drive the price of used cars up, further hurting the little guy while removing sources of parts for those of us who like old cars..


>has resulted in yet some other environmental impact

environmental impact is not the problem, bees modify their environment, heck, even bacteria modify their environment. It's the how & scale that are important..


>Enforcement being an impractical goal has not gotten in the way of much of our policy. How's that war on drugs going?

;-)



>to the tune of 1800 acres for 250 Megawatts

well, simply scaling up Solar One gives 450 acres.. a bit shy of 1,800.. plus, in line with PerlDog7's "individual building" approach, the so-called Dish Sterling, system might make sense.. probably on a housing cluster unit scale. There is an upper as well as lower limit to scaling..


>Munich gets 40% of its electric from solar and has 30% less sun than New York City.

hmm, those practical Germans..


>Somehow or other a progressive tax seems to solve all problems..

well, in a society that values money more than sanity, yea, it does.. ;-)


>What if we mandate office buildings and like places to maintain 65 degrees or less in the winter and 79 degrees or more in "air conditioning season"?

Oo, I love this one.. How many people heat to 78 in the winter.. & cool to 68 in the summer.. and don't understand what I am talking about when I point it out to them.. - bless their hearts.. ;-)


>(a)Conserve as much energy as possible, by moving from the couch only when absolutely necessary to...
(b)...replenish with liquid carbohydrates only as and when necessary.

and (c) get a voice to text program.. working on that 'thought to text' one right now.. ;-)
but who has got the sheet.. & who will hank the jib? Nooooo.. ;-)


A problem can't be solved with the same thinking that created it.. and _that's_ what is so inherently evil about the politically conservative mindset.. A liberal is simply one who is willing to try new approaches.. which presupposes 'thinking'..

Oh, yes. A solar thermal system will never kill anyone further away than say, being liberal here ;-), 10 miles.. How do you west coasters feel about Japans nuclear now?

enjoy
bobby

I see things are going bad over there.. Nobody should have to experience what they are. I join with the other well wishers in thinking of them.

Let's not make the thought an empty one. Let's make a new world. Natural catastrophes will happen. Let's not continue creating 'an-accident-waiting-to-happen' which has the potential to destroy life on the earth.


Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex... It takes a touch of genius - and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction.
Albert Einstein

Lew Barrett
03-14-2011, 11:30 PM
that isn't even funny

I can't imagine the pain they are experiencing. Japan of all places. An epic nightmare of ghastly proportions.

elf
03-14-2011, 11:36 PM
http://www.gregpalast.com/

doorstop
03-14-2011, 11:45 PM
It's time for the senior management of Tokyo Electric Power Company to do the honorable thing and commit seppuku, aka "harikiri."

You sir, are an idiot and should be locked away from decent human beings.

skuthorp
03-15-2011, 03:41 AM
I note the latest advice to the Japanese is "Do not have contact with the air". One British expert is saying he cannot tell whether the present situation is dangerous to humans or not, but the company is withdrawing it's workers.

skuthorp
03-15-2011, 07:44 AM
Three hours on, serious radiation leakage is the news.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-12744973

Even the Japanese don't trust the power company that has a history of fudging the facts and changing it's stories.

Tom Montgomery
03-15-2011, 07:46 AM
And this explains the fire outside of reactor #4 and subsequent high radiation levels: In Fuel-Cooling Pools, A Danger for the Longer Term. (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/16/world/asia/16fuel.html)


The pools, which sit on the top level of the reactor buildings and keep spent fuel submerged in water, have lost their cooling systems and the Japanese have been unable to take emergency steps because of the multiplying crises.

By late Tuesday, the water meant to cool spent fuel rods in the No. 4 reactor was boiling, Japan’s nuclear watchdog said. If the water evaporates and the rods run dry, they could overheat and catch fire, potentially spreading radioactive materials in dangerous clouds.

If any of the spent fuel rods in the pools do indeed catch fire, nuclear experts say, the high heat would loft the radiation in clouds that would spread the radioactivity.

“It’s worse than a meltdown,” said David A. Lochbaum, a nuclear engineer at the Union of Concerned Scientists who worked as an instructor on the kinds of General Electric reactors used in Japan. “The reactor is inside thick walls, and the spent fuel of Reactors 1 and 3 is out in the open.”

Things just seem to be going from bad to worse.
.

elf
03-15-2011, 07:52 AM
Hmm. I wonder why they didn't have a Yucca Mountain to send the spent rods to.

Tom Montgomery
03-15-2011, 07:56 AM
I believe that the on sight fuel-cooling pools are needed to cool down the spent fuel rods sufficiently to enable handling and transporting to other locations for long term storage (say, Yucca Mountain).

Not defending anything here. Just stating my understanding.

elf
03-15-2011, 08:02 AM
Curious, indeed, that they thought storing them on the TOP level of the building that housed the reactor was a good idea, however. After all, that's what blew out first.

TimH
03-15-2011, 09:34 AM
So its safe to transport highly radioactive material on public roads across the country and store it in an old volcano? I believe it has been decided that the safest place for the waste is onsite at the reactors.

PhaseLockedLoop
03-15-2011, 10:19 AM
It seems odd that there's no containment on the cooling pools. And horrifying.

Rich VanValkenburg
03-15-2011, 10:31 AM
Watching the coverage on CNN is like watching 'Ground Hog Day'. I watch the news to learn something new. There seems to be a blackout of real information, probably in an attempt to keep their markets from imploding.

Lew Barrett
03-15-2011, 11:04 AM
Not that I disagree, Rich, and the markets don't like it one bit, but the global inferences are horrific, in every possible way. A market drop triggered by this catastrophe is the least of the bad news that could be coming. Nuclear power's risks are not remotely worth the benefits. If anybody needed proof, here it is. Market meltdown is the least of it.

As an Obama supporter, I hope he considers rethinking his stance on nuclear power. This one event could be all the trouble a troubled world needs right now.

It's pushed all the other news onto the back pages. That should tell us something.

elf
03-15-2011, 11:15 AM
It's pushed all the other news onto the back pages. That should tell us something.

Especially tragic for the people of Libya. And Michigan.

George.
03-15-2011, 11:58 AM
thanks phillip. when I want to know how to build a brick bbq pit Ill let you know - until then I ll follow what the nuclear experts are reporting.

Dutch, I am sure you had no idea, but you are way out of line.

One of the reasons I come to the Bilge as that when things like this happen, and the press is full of confusing and contradictory simplifications, there are people like Phillip here who have first hand knowledge to contribute.

ishmael
03-15-2011, 12:18 PM
One thing is sure, Lew. This tragedy in Japan will slow or completely stop the developement of nuclear power, at least in many places.

I was feeling rather optimistic on Sunday, but not today. This thing just gets worse and worse, almost by the hour.

And then there are the problems of water, food, fuel and shelter in the north. Those problems are going to take awhile to sort out. Good luck to the Japanese during this horrific time.

RonW
03-15-2011, 01:09 PM
Japan is no longer a first world nation....sad for sure...

yzer
03-15-2011, 01:22 PM
Things got pretty hot in Fukushima yesterday but cooled down significantly today. I can't believe the hype and anti-nuke propaganda that is getting cranked out by mainstream media right now. AP reports are particularly bad. I think their reporters are having trouble with the international date line concept.

The news from Fukushima is distressing enough without the hype and anti-nuke diatribe.

One of the best sources of information including actual radiation measurements at Fukushima comes from the nuclear industry itself. I check here for updates every few hours.

http://nei.cachefly.net/newsandevents/information-on-the-japanese-earthquake-and-reactors-in-that-region/


UPDATE AS OF 10:20 A.M. EDT, TUESDAY, MARCH 15:
The level of radioactivity at the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant has been decreasing, according to the International Atomic Energy Agency (http://www.iaea.org/).

At 8 p.m. EDT March 15, a dose rate of 1,190 millirem per hour was observed. Six hours later, the dose rate was 60 millirem per hour, IAEA said.

About 150 residents near the Fukushima Daiichi site have been checked for radiation and 23 have been decontaminated.

Japanese authorities have distributed potassium iodide tablets to evacuation center (see this page (http://www.nei.org/newsandevents/information-on-the-japanese-earthquake-and-reactors-in-that-region/radiation-and-japans-nuclear-energy-plants) for more information on potassium iodide). If taken within several hours of ingesting radioactive iodine, potassium iodide can protect the thyroid gland.


UPDATE AS OF 9:15 A.M. EDT, TUESDAY, MARCH 15:
Fukushima Daiichi
Units 1 and 3 at Fukushima Daiichi are stable and cooling is being maintained through seawater injection. Primary containment integrity has been maintained on both reactors.

The Japan Atomic Energy Agency (JAEA) (http://www.jaea.go.jp/english/) reported an explosion in the suppression pool at Fukushima Daiichi Unit 2, at 7:14 p.m. EDT on March 14. Reactor water level was reported to be at 2.7 meters below the top of the fuel. The pressure in the suppression pool decreased from 3 atmospheres to 1 atmosphere. Radiation readings at the site increased to 96 millirem per hour.

Dose rates at Fukushima Daiichi as reported at 10:22 p.m. EDT on March 14 were:



Near Unit 3 reactor building 40 rem/hr
Near Unit 4 reactor building 10 rem/hr
At site boundary 821 millirem/hr.
Kitaibaraki (200 km south of site) 0.4 millirem/hr.


We are working on getting updated information on radiation and dose rates at and near the plant.

Station personnel not directly supporting reactor recovery efforts have been evacuated, leaving approximately 50 staff members at the site. Operators are no longer in the main control room due to high radiation levels.

Safety relief valves were able to be re-opened and seawater injection into the reactor core was restarted around 1 a.m. EDT on March 15 and is continuing.

At Unit 4 on March 14 at approximately 8:38 p.m. EDT, a fire was reported in the reactor building. It is believed to have been from a lube oil leak in a system that drives recirculation water pumps. Fire fighting efforts extinguished the fire. The roof of the reactor building was damaged.

Fukushima Daini
All four reactors at Fukushima Daini are being maintained with normal cooling using residual heat removal systems.

Bob Adams
03-15-2011, 01:45 PM
Now Yzer, lets not confuse people with facts!

yzer
03-15-2011, 01:58 PM
Sorry.

George.
03-15-2011, 02:03 PM
One of the best sources of information including actual radiation measurements at Fukushima comes from the nuclear industry itself.

1) Are you familiar with the concept of "conflict of interest?"

2) Have you seen what is happening to the stock prices of anything connected to "the nuclear industry?"

yzer
03-15-2011, 02:17 PM
Conflict of interest or not the NEI is providing facts that are ignored by main stream media including detailed descriptions of what events have occurred and radiation measurements.

Five hours after this update was issued by NEI, the current AP story begins:

"Dangerous levels of radiation leaking from a crippled nuclear plant forced Japan to order 140,000 people to seal themselves indoors Tuesday after an explosion and a fire dramatically escalated the crisis spawned by a deadly tsunami."

Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2011/03/14/international/i002205D47.DTL#ixzz1GhIure2D

Last I heard it's Wednesday in Tokyo.


What the heck do stock prices have to do with the facts regarding events at Fukushima? If you disagree with the account I provided from NEI, please enlighten me.

yzer
03-15-2011, 02:21 PM
I'm as concerned about events in Fukushima as anyone else. But's it's no Chernobyl.

genglandoh
03-15-2011, 02:22 PM
Thanks YZER for the info.

It looks like the worst is over and the reactors are cooling down.

I hope there will be a real thoughtful review of what happened and not just an anti-nuke message from the press.
I can always hope but I do not expect much from the Press.

After all they were communications majors in college.|:)

ishmael
03-15-2011, 02:29 PM
That's good news, yzer. Let's hope nothing else bad happens.

George.
03-15-2011, 02:31 PM
It looks like the worst is over and the reactors are cooling down.

I would have some confidence in this statement, were it not a repetition of statements made daily since Saturday.

yzer
03-15-2011, 02:33 PM
In addition, the secondary containment mandated for US nuclear power plants is much more robust than those built at Fukushima. GE built these old Gen I BWRs in Japan and in the US, but to different regulatory standards.

yzer
03-15-2011, 02:39 PM
Exactly where did I say there was nothing to worry about?

George.
03-15-2011, 02:42 PM
GE built these old Gen I BWRs in Japan and in the US, but to different regulatory standards.

GE has lost 7 billion in market cap since Friday, on volume way above average. And nukes are just one part of their business - another is wind turbines, whose stock is soaring.

TimH
03-15-2011, 02:45 PM
I'm as concerned about events in Fukushima as anyone else. But's it's no Chernobyl.

If more than one of these things melts down it could be worse than Chernobyl.

htom
03-15-2011, 02:45 PM
First rule of trouble: Don't Panic.

TimH
03-15-2011, 02:48 PM
Thanks YZER for the info.

It looks like the worst is over and the reactors are cooling down.

I hope there will be a real thoughtful review of what happened and not just an anti-nuke message from the press.



Yep. Everything is hunky dory. Nothing to see here. Move along please.

yzer
03-15-2011, 02:49 PM
If more than one of these things melts down it could be worse than Chernobyl.Maybe. But you don't have burning graphite and a full meltdown at Fukushima. It's not out of the realm of possibility but as each day passes the cores cool more and possibility of a full meltdown lessens.

Rich VanValkenburg
03-15-2011, 02:56 PM
Seems like a good case for placing the backup generators on the roof, away from the possibility of being swamped. huh, hind-sight.

One other thing, two days ago the complex at Onagawa also reported cooling pump problems and declared a state of emergency. But I haven't heard a thing about that one since. huh.

genglandoh
03-15-2011, 03:01 PM
Yep. Everything is hunky dory. Nothing to see here. Move along please.

Tim,
I did not know if you have been reading all of my posts but I have been very worried about the possibility of a full meltdown. The last few days it has been a race to see if they could get the fuel rods temperature down.

Now that the worst is over (yes it was still very bad) we should have a review of what happened.

TimH
03-15-2011, 03:09 PM
How do you figure the worst is over? The latest news on CNN is:

NEW: Threat of radiation release from cooling ponds "very real," expert says

I wouldnt go patting anyone on the back just yet.

TimH
03-15-2011, 03:11 PM
In addition, the secondary containment mandated for US nuclear power plants is much more robust than those built at Fukushima. GE built these old Gen I BWRs in Japan and in the US, but to different regulatory standards.

The nuke plants in cali are built to withstand a 7.5 quake. Considering the size of the quakes lately and the fact that the 1906 SF quake was an 8.3 I would say our US built plants are constructed to inferior standards than they should have been.

genglandoh
03-15-2011, 03:13 PM
How do you figure the worst is over? The latest news on CNN is:

NEW: Threat of radiation release from cooling ponds "very real," expert says

I wouldnt go patting anyone on the back just yet.

Thanks, I have been focused on the reactor and a meltdown.
There can be lots of radiation from the cooling ponds.

genglandoh
03-15-2011, 03:42 PM
It looks like the max radiation was 1,190 millirem per hour six hours later, the dose rate was 60 millirem per hour. I do not know what it is now.

According to the below MIT the current federal occupational limit is 5,000 per year and normal background level is 300 per year. So if you stay in the area for 100 hours at the 60 millirens level you will get 6,000 millirens.

I would expect the current levels are lower but you can see that if you stayed in the area during the past few days you got a lot of radiation.

Please also notice that the highest recommended limit for radiation exposures is for astronautsis 25,000 millirems per Space Shuttle mission
http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/1994/safe-0105.html

yzer
03-15-2011, 04:10 PM
The nuke plants in cali are built to withstand a 7.5 quake. Considering the size of the quakes lately and the fact that the 1906 SF quake was an 8.3 I would say our US built plants are constructed to inferior standards than they should have been.In the US, NRC requires that nuclear plants be designed to withstand natural risks at each reactor location. So, there is no statewide standard for earthquake resistance.

The Diablo Canyon plant was originally designed to withstand 7.5, but received later structural upgrades. I don't know if it is currently rated for 7.5 or actually higher. This location is some distance from the San Andreas fault that caused the 8.3 in 1906. Located on a bluff high above the coastline.

The only other active nuclear plant in CA is San Onofre near San Clemente. It was designed to withstand 7.0 in a location that is less seismically active than Diablo Canyon. This location is pretty close to the ocean but has a 30' seawall for tsunami protection. I don't know if that seawall protects the backup generators. A lot of people have been asking that question lately.

Both reactors are Gen II PWRs.

These plants were designed and planned during the 60's and early 70's when earthquake science was in its infancy.

I'm uncomfortable with the location of both of these nuclear plants. Why take risks when they can be avoided? CA has a moratorium that prohibits construction of new nuclear plants until the Feds provide a permanent waste storage facility. If CA builds new nuclear plants I would rather see them built further inland and accept the power transmission losses. We know much more about tsunamis, earthquakes and nuclear reactor design than we did 40 and 50 years ago.

I can show you the current fault map for CA if you like. It looks like a road map.

yzer
03-15-2011, 04:21 PM
It looks like the max radiation was 1,190 millirem per hour six hours later, the dose rate was 60 millirem per hour. I do not know what it is now.

According to the below MIT the current federal occupational limit is 5,000 per year and normal background level is 300 per year. So if you stay in the area for 100 hours at the 60 millirens level you will get 6,000 millirens.

I would expect the current levels are lower but you can see that if you stayed in the area during the past few days you got a lot of radiation.

Please also notice that the highest recommended limit for radiation exposures is for astronautsis 25,000 millirems per Space Shuttle mission
http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/1994/safe-0105.htmlI'm pretty sure that peak happened after the last blast at unit 2.

Ted Hoppe
03-15-2011, 04:29 PM
In the US, NRC requires that nuclear plants be designed to withstand natural risks at each reactor location. So, there is no statewide standard for earthquake resistance.

The Diablo Canyon plant was originally designed to withstand 7.5, but received later structural upgrades. I don't know if it is currently rated for 7.5 or actually higher. This location is some distance from the San Andreas fault that caused the 8.3 in 1906. Located on a bluff high above the coastline.

The only other active nuclear plant in CA is San Onofre near San Clemente. It was designed to withstand 7.0 in a location that is less seismically active than Diablo Canyon. This location is pretty close to the ocean but has a 30' seawall for tsunami protection. I don't know if that seawall protects the backup generators. A lot of people have been asking that question lately.

Both reactors are Gen II PWRs.

These plants were designed and planned during the 60's and early 70's when earthquake science was in its infancy.

I'm uncomfortable with the location of both of these nuclear plants. Why take risks when they can be avoided? CA has a moratorium that prohibits construction of new nuclear plants until the Feds provide a permanent waste storage facility. If CA builds new nuclear plants I would rather see them built further inland and accept the power transmission losses. We know much more about tsunamis, earthquakes and nuclear reactor design than we did 40 and 50 years ago.

I can show you the current fault map for CA if you like. It looks like a road map.

You might want to rethink what the power of earthquakes are and the damage they make. one thing you are not taking into consideration is the depth of an earthquake. A 7.5 deep under the earth is a different animal than a 7.5 less than 2 miles under. The waves travel differently and the shallow ones tear up a lot more... Conjecture: Considering the way the nuclear industry has conducted business and the way FEMA responded to New Orleans, Japan may be an ideal model for many things.

yzer
03-15-2011, 04:58 PM
I don't see what I need to rethink. Are you saying that I overestimated earthquake risks at these two CA locations?

BarnacleGrim
03-15-2011, 05:08 PM
I had no idea heat would be this big of a problem even days after a reactor has been scrammed. I guess we won't really know what happened until the investigation is completed a long time from now.

Ted Hoppe
03-15-2011, 05:21 PM
I don't see what I need to rethink. Are you saying that I overestimated earthquake risks at these two CA locations?

Just the opposite. The risk is higher. Design factors of these two locations suggest inadequate engineering and missing historical knowledge.

The analogy is that of a dinner room table with a full glass of water. If you kick it's leg, the water might slash out. With the same force, kick the table top... The glass falls over.

Phillip Allen
03-15-2011, 05:36 PM
I had no idea heat would be this big of a problem even days after a reactor has been scrammed. I guess we won't really know what happened until the investigation is completed a long time from now.

I look forward to National Geographic explaining it all some day

wardd
03-15-2011, 05:40 PM
1) Are you familiar with the concept of "conflict of interest?"

2) Have you seen what is happening to the stock prices of anything connected to "the nuclear industry?"

republicans are very familiar with conflict of interest

yzer
03-15-2011, 05:58 PM
Just the opposite. The risk is higher. Design factors of these two locations suggest inadequate engineering and missing historical knowledge.

The analogy is that of a dinner room table with a full glass of water. If you kick it's leg, the water might slash out. With the same force, kick the table top... The glass falls over.The San Andreas fault and many others were well known to science in the 1960's. That didn't seem to be an issue when PG&E planned and started construction on the Diablo Canyon plant. Public outcry didn't begin until construction was well underway and then it came from groups like Mothers for Peace who just didn't like any form of nuclear power and demanded "No More Hiroshimas!" They didn't know anything about fault zones. Abalone Alliance organized most of the protests after that. The existence of a newly discovered branch of the San Andreas Fault near the Diablo Canyon site caused some controversy later in the game but that issue wasn't pushed by the protesters. Diablo Canyon went online in the mid '80s. PG&E touted it as a green alternative to energy production and they maintain that claim today.

TimH
03-15-2011, 06:04 PM
Well if we are entering a seismically active period and the plates along North America are stuck as they appear to be. SouCal could be in for a rude awakening in the very near future.

Seattle may get flattened, but at least there are no nuclear plants.

BarnacleGrim
03-15-2011, 06:07 PM
One thing about earthquake safe buildings — we already have the technology to build aircraft and spaceship capable of withstanding many times the acceleration of an earthquake. A building doesn't even have to be light. As I understand it there was little to no damage to buildings not hit by a tsunami.

yzer
03-15-2011, 06:23 PM
Well if we are entering a seismically active period and the plates along North America are stuck as they appear to be. SouCal could be in for a rude awakening in the very near future.

Seattle may get flattened, but at least there are no nuclear plants.It sure looks like we are in a period of movement, doesn't it? These things have moved from the Caribbean to Columbia to Mexico Chile, Indonesia and Japan. All that's left is the east coast of Siberia and the west coast of North America.

I read that Puget Sound is more likely to get a 9.0 than southern California. You have three plates grinding around up there.

Ted Hoppe
03-15-2011, 06:30 PM
PG&E here in California has had several problems which indicate thier engineering decisions are worrisome. One that comes to mind locally is how they increased gas pressures on dilapidated, earthquake damaged lines in and around San Francisco causing the recent big San Bruno fire.

The pushes for nuke power plants have come from the 60 under the JFK space age idealism and again in the 80 as a response to the oil crisis. Note the most populas state, California only had 2 locations verses less vocal residents as folks knew they are dangerous.