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Allison
03-10-2011, 06:18 PM
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2011/03/11/3161113.htm

Talk about stupid!

Ian McColgin
03-10-2011, 06:24 PM
Guess they've outlawed Hindu, Buddist, and Jehovah's Witnesses from adopting.

wardd
03-10-2011, 06:27 PM
aren't sheep vegetarians?

BETTY-B
03-10-2011, 06:28 PM
The first vegetarian restaurant I ever went to was in the shadow of the Acropolis. That was when I realized that this bunny food can actually be a meal! It was July, 1990.

Phillip Allen
03-10-2011, 06:32 PM
I don't know...what about New Guinea? Aren't they known for an unusual diet?

oznabrag
03-10-2011, 06:33 PM
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2011/03/11/3161113.htm

Talk about stupid!

Not.

It can be done, mind you, but the level of commitment needed to give a growing human enough protein through a strictly vegan diet could be cause for real concern.

Allison
03-10-2011, 06:35 PM
Vegan and vegetarian are not the same.
Even on a vegan diet which is more restrictive, it's pretty easy these days!

oznabrag
03-10-2011, 06:38 PM
Vegan and vegetarian are not the same.
Even on a vegan diet which is more restrictive, it's pretty easy these days!

Right you are, Ma'am. My mistake!

Allison
03-10-2011, 06:45 PM
Right you are, Ma'am. My mistake!

Thank you Sir:d

All those animals that you guys love to eat are all vegetarians, they don't seem to have a problem growing up big and fast:d:d

Allison
03-10-2011, 06:52 PM
Good morning to you too Pug!!


A child needs to eat fish, seafood and dairy products among other things
Total rubbish!!!!

oznabrag
03-10-2011, 06:52 PM
Thank you Sir:d

All those animals that you guys love to eat are all vegetarians, they don't seem to have a problem growing up big and fast:d:d

True enough, but humans eat meat because we can't digest grass.

Allison
03-10-2011, 06:56 PM
Not many vegetarians eat grass!!:D

Plenty of other sources for all that you need without eating meat or fish.
A vegan diet can be hard to balance for little kids but regular vegetarian is a walk in the park. Gives them healthy eating habits for the rest of their life.
Not just mindlessly stuffing Maccas!

Keith Wilson
03-10-2011, 07:06 PM
All those animals that you guys love to eat are all vegetarians, they don't seem to have a problem growing up big and fastRuminants can digest cellulose; we can't. But still, this seems silly at best. One can be a perfectly healthy vegetarian if one is reasonably careful and not too fanatical about it. Me, I'm way too fond of being carnivorous.

oznabrag
03-10-2011, 07:10 PM
That's right Keith, and once they've digested it, they convert it into a most delectable form of protein, don't you agree?

For my part, The Girl is a pretty strict vegetarian, and she's such a great cook that I don't miss meat, day to day.

Sometimes though...

perldog007
03-10-2011, 07:10 PM
Not.

It can be done, mind you, but the level of commitment needed to give a growing human enough protein through a strictly vegan diet could be cause for real concern.

Wrong you ornery low browed Texas cow roaster! Ever heard of Herschell Walker?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSsgbMpD_fw&tracker=False

How about Mac Danzig?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Z_5J6uM3Rs&tracker=False

Mike Mahler?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7gxKAMgj138&tracker=False

Two vegans and a vegetarian, two professional fighters and a strength trainer, then we have folks like this down under body builder and power lifter who wins awards in both disciplines ( drug free of course )

http://www.veganstrength.org/img/p_supplements.jpg

I was going to smoke a Texas Brisket tomorrow, but now I'm going to make a Dal and spinach curry over basmati rice. That oughtta learn ya. :)

Peerie Maa
03-10-2011, 07:10 PM
Thank you Sir:d

All those animals that you guys love to eat are all vegetarians, they don't seem to have a problem growing up big and fast:d:d

And they grow up as thick as a brick. Humans need the fatty acids to grow those big brains.

oznabrag
03-10-2011, 07:14 PM
And they grow up as thick as a brick. Humans need the fatty acids to grow those big brains.

Yup.

Allison
03-10-2011, 07:18 PM
Ruminants can digest cellulose; we can't. But still, this seems silly at best. One can be a perfectly healthy vegetarian if one is reasonably careful and not too fanatical about it. Me, I'm way too fond of being carnivorous.

It was a joke Keith:D

I have been vegetarian for 20 years and vegan for more than 10 and I'm healthy! Actually my health problems are related to leading too physical and active a life! Lots of broken bones but that had nothing to do with diet!!
There are lots of athletes that are vegies!

Phillip Allen
03-10-2011, 07:22 PM
Thank you Sir:d

All those animals that you guys love to eat are all vegetarians, they don't seem to have a problem growing up big and fast:d:d
how many stomachs do yhou have...how long is your gut?

pick a better argument

Allison
03-10-2011, 07:23 PM
And they grow up as thick as a brick. Humans need the fatty acids to grow those big brains.

So Nick, all those societies where vegetarian diets are part of the religion and culture, Hindu, buddhist et al are dominated by small brained, intellectually retarded people are they?:d
I can name a few people who would put me in that category but I doubt they think it has anything to do with being vegan!!:D

delecta
03-10-2011, 07:26 PM
How could the courts punish a child like that? If you want to be a vegan, more power to you but to deprive a child of a nice, fat, juicy porter house with maybe a chocolate milk shake on the side....child abuse I say. :)

Phillip Allen
03-10-2011, 07:28 PM
I think there are lots of stroies about fanatics abusing children...probably a lot is written off as SID's

Allison
03-10-2011, 07:34 PM
Being vegetarian has nothing to do with being a fanatic, not even vegans are fanatics. Its an ethical approach to eating.
fanatics clearly exist about all sorts of things.
Chat to my mate Sammy and you'll find that out!

perldog007
03-10-2011, 07:37 PM
I was a wheat free vegan for a year, didn't kill me ( I know that inconvenient result troubles some here :D ) and I did construction + restaurant work, didn't pass out or anything. Still don't eat animal products every day. Ben Franklin did okay as a pesco-veggie head or whatever you want to call him.

doorstop
03-10-2011, 07:41 PM
I'm definitely not a vegetarian but I have just realised that I probably only eat meat once a week at most.... I think it comes down to economics and convenience for me.

Having said that, I have family and friends coming for the weekend and the Barby will get well used.

Allison
03-10-2011, 07:42 PM
how many stomachs do yhou have...how long is your gut?

pick a better argument

Phillip, think about it, I had already posted that it was a joke!
Maybe you didn't catch it. Then you come up with the fanatics and child abuse stuff.
Please think for a moment mate!:D

Phillip Allen
03-10-2011, 07:43 PM
small babies are pretty helpless and must endure things they may not want to...if a woman gets pregnant in the old fashioned way...she gets to rule the roost...but adoption is different. The state must assume the role of "mother" and denying a baby milk or other things our maker has dictated as part of a healthy diet for hundreds of thousands of years is over reaching from "Mother's" point of view

Phillip Allen
03-10-2011, 07:45 PM
Phillip, think about it, I had already posted that it was a joke!
Maybe you didn't catch it. Then you come up with the fanatics and child abuse stuff.
Please think for a moment mate!:D

so the whole thing is a joke? I saw that post but it didn't register that you meant that some baby would NOT be put on a non-human diet...sorry

Michael D. Storey
03-10-2011, 07:55 PM
Is it true that vegetarians don't eat animal crackers?

Allison
03-10-2011, 07:56 PM
Good morning.

I was a vegetarian for a long time (7 years?), not because I disagree with eating flesh, but because I was completely removed from the process. It was only when I lived somewhere that I was involved in the raising and killing of my own food source that I stopped and in fact I'm becoming more vegetarian* now as, once again, I am removed from the process and American food production is an effing nightmare.

So I have a lot of empathy for vegetarianism. Vegans are different and a sickly lot.

But, your headline is "Vegetarians barred from adopting" which is not correct. It was one adoption to a vegetarian family, not all adoptions by vegetarians that was denied.

We are an omnivorous species and I think vegetarianism should be a personal decision, like religion or politics.

I say, feed the kid everything and anything and if it wants to make a conscious decision when it is able, then respect those decisions.

*Bacon, lovely, lovely bacon. :)

Ok Pug, I don't understand your need to have a go but you seem to be on a jag this morning.


I think the issue might hinge on how strictly the adoptive parents intended the kid to adhere to their diet and I doubt you are privy to the full story, in a five paragraph, sensationalist, report from an Aussie rag.

I don't think there are many people who would call the Australian Broadcasting Commission a "sensationalist Aussie rag".
Please look at the quote before you comment.

Now I know that you don't have a lot of respect for what I say, past experience has shown that but this is silly.


But, your headline is "Vegetarians barred from adopting" which is not correct. It was one adoption to a vegetarian family, not all adoptions by vegetarians that was denied.


Now when I learnt English I was taught that the plural of vegetarian was the word vegetarians!
Now unless this is a very strange couple( a term usually applied to 2 of something), then there is more than one vegetarian in the family!
If I had written "Vegetarian barred from adopting" then that would have not only been totally inaccurate and misleading but also I would have been displaying a very poor grasp of the English language.
Now I know that a few people around here think I'm a seriously dumb blonde but really I try very hard not to show it.
So if I have made an error of expression in the use of that phrase Pug, PLease, Please help me out.
I'm neither as wise or as erudite as you.
I know this from all our previous exchanges.:rolleyes::rolleyes:

Allison
03-10-2011, 07:59 PM
There is growing evidence that veganism depletes stored nutrients, in some people, over a long period of time. There are some that can live as vegans with no problem forever but there are others after a few years start to have serious health problems that can only be rectified by altering their diet.

One year of veganism won't hurt anyone. In fact, under the socialist utopia of Derek it will be compulsory every five years, anyone not complying will be sent to the Tofu mines.

The original post says nothing about veganisn. The couple are described as vegetatrians!

Allison
03-10-2011, 08:02 PM
so the whole thing is a joke? I saw that post but it didn't register that you meant that some baby would NOT be put on a non-human diet...sorry

Phillip, put on your glasses mate. Are you having trouble reading things. I suggest you go slowly.:D

And where does Non-Human come into it?

Phillip Allen
03-10-2011, 08:05 PM
Phillip, put on your glasses mate. Are you having trouble reading things. I suggest you go slowly.:D

And where does Non-Human come into it?

calm down...I am a little confused today...Chuck's death has me upset and I don't feel good anyway...I took a walk after I weighed myself...it's scary and distracting...I can FEEL my fat just sitting here and typing!...I gotta get control of this!

Allison
03-10-2011, 08:14 PM
Phillip, I understand you are upset, I don't have a hassle with you at all. We don't have them!
Chuck's passing will affect a lot of people on this forum for a long time, he was certainly one of those larger than life characters who bless everyone with their presence!

Phillip Allen
03-10-2011, 08:21 PM
Phillip, I understand you are upset, I don't have a hassle with you at all. We don't have them!
Chuck's passing will affect a lot of people on this forum for a long time, he was certainly one of those larger than life characters who bless everyone with their presence!

well, I'm not upset with you or anyone else...it just hurt my feelers...

Allison
03-10-2011, 08:56 PM
Vegetarians is not only the plural but also the collective.

The title "Vegetarians Barred from Adopting!!!!!!" does not imply that a vegetarian couple in Crete have been refused an adoption, does it?

So if upon reading further how do you think this was inaccurate.
Please explain how there is a fault in the use of the particular words chosen by the ABC, not me by the way!

But, your headline is "Vegetarians barred from adopting" which is not correct. It was one adoption to a vegetarian family, not all adoptions by vegetarians that was denied.
Clearly open to deliberate misinterpretation and then misuse by someone who wants to create a little drama for some obscure reason.
If that was not your intent Pug, then how come the comment about a "sensationalist rag" when referring to a news source that you now acknowledge as a "fine and respected news organisation"?
You had clearly read the source name otherwise how did you know it was Aussie?



We have disagreed in the past, yes, that doesn't mean I have no respect for you regardless of how feisty the disagreement became.

Funny I seem to remember you challenging me repeatedly about statements I made about my life and when I posted the pics that put paid to your comments you were remarkably silent!


Sarcasm does not become you.
On the contrary, I find it expresses my reaction to some situations very well!!

Allison
03-10-2011, 09:34 PM
if all you are worried about is semantics then forget it.

Really!! You didn't start these silly word games, no not at all.
Leave it be!

I'm off to the movies. Juliet Binoche is far more interesting!

WX
03-10-2011, 10:24 PM
Not.

It can be done, mind you, but the level of commitment needed to give a growing human enough protein through a strictly vegan diet could be cause for real concern.
Surprisingly enough, it's not that hard. A good friend of mine raised her son on a Vegan diet. He's 6 foot tall, talks like he went to Oxford and works in diplomatic service. A very fine young man.

Ian McColgin
03-10-2011, 10:52 PM
The story was about vegetarian, which millions of perfectly healthy people around the world raising perfectly healthy children already are. Vegans are a special subset all of whom are quite serious, educated about nutrition, and will raise healthy children, even in Greece should any Greek vegans choose to adopt.

doorstop
03-11-2011, 12:43 AM
Vegetarian, vegan, black, white or brindle...... just people.
This isn't a subject that needs arguing about, just sympathy for some erstwhile parents I think.

PeterSibley
03-11-2011, 12:49 AM
There's nothing wrong with vegans, as long as they have made a conscious, adult, decision.

That does create a problem for Hindus doesn't it ?

David G
03-11-2011, 01:27 AM
I was a vegetarian for over 5 years, in my early 20's. Didn't seem to have affected my health. During that period I surfed, skied, and did a good bit of serious backpacking. I was quite fit, active, happy, and energetic. I just found that I wasn't committed enough to it to do the extra bit of effort it took to balance proteins, and obtain the proper nutrients. And I missed seafood. Now my motto is: all things in moderation, including moderation.

PeterSibley
03-11-2011, 01:43 AM
Does it?



When asked ,"what religion was Ghandi?" I doubt any Westerner would answer Hindu.

The notion that every and all religions are equal is a scary idea for most Westerners.

There has to be a winner.

This Westerner would .

I've been a vegetarian for about 30 years , I'm fitter than most of my peers , worked as a carpenter , small crop grower and sawmiller throughout that period .My 93 year old mother has also been vegetarian for slightly longer than me .She is still well and independent with a sharp incisive mind .

I have yet to see the disadvantages .

My change was based on a personal ethic ,' the least harm to the greatest number' , eating animals wasn't necessary for me .I enjoyed meat ,but not sufficiently to kill for it ...which I used to do quite regularly .

David G
03-11-2011, 02:03 AM
FTFY.

But really, it wasn't that much of an FTFY, was it?

Now that's just wrong! While I can't claim to have steered completely away from the various substances that were widely available during those years... it wasn't a serious part of my life. And when I did indulge... I usually wasn't very serious about it at all <G> Though... in later years... I did get to know some folks who used peyote as a sacramental substance. They were quite serious about it.

But... back to the original topic: seems like ignorance and bureaucratic over-reach to me.

P.I. Stazzer-Newt
03-11-2011, 02:14 AM
...
I have been vegetarian for 20 years and vegan for more than 10 and I'm healthy!
...
Lots of broken bones but that had nothing to do with diet!!
...

How's your calcium intake, and have you had you bone density checked?

The relatively recent fashion for lightweight and ultra low fat intake might well be to blame for a number of broken bones.

skuthorp
03-11-2011, 05:20 AM
Hmmm,
http://www.veganstrength.org/img/p_supplements.jpg

Prunes and wallnuts for me................

Allison
03-11-2011, 05:33 AM
How's your calcium intake, and have you had you bone density checked?

The relatively recent fashion for lightweight and ultra low fat intake might well be to blame for a number of broken bones.

Stas, thank you for your concern but the broken bones are from lots of causes, a very active lifestyle, motorbikes and mountaineering, car accidents and abusive guys!
Nothing to do with bone density. Mine is fine, I get checked regularly.

As for Pugs totally foolish

Vegans are different and a sickly lot.

I've posted a few pics and I don't recall any of the guys commenting that I looked sickly!!!
For nearly 60 I'm in great shape.
I just came back from a long run on the beach and I regularly workout.
Weight bearing exercise and calcium supps. are also good for maintaining bone density.
There is absolutely no truth to the idea that a sensible vegan diet is unhealthy.
I'm not interested in commenting on any of Pug's stuff, he obviously is trying to stir.

The original post was about the foolish and ignorant attitude that has been used to deny a couple the right to adopt.

PeterSibley
03-11-2011, 05:44 AM
The best thing a man or woman can do for bone density is weight bearing exercise .If the body thinks it needs calcium and strong bones it will build them ,if it doesn't need them it won't build them .

Shang
03-11-2011, 06:37 AM
See pages 12 - 14 of The Mad Cowboy, by Howard F. Lyman
Feedlot fattened beef.cattle are fed rendered and ground animal carcasses, sometimes including euthanize cats dogs, also road kill. Added to that is animal excrement, for example chicken litter.

If this wasn't bad enough the mixture contains large amounts of antibiotics and growth hormones.

Suddenly that steak doesn't look so good.

Allison
03-11-2011, 08:56 AM
I guess Pugwash got zapped, was it because of this thread or did he bug other people too?

Phillip Allen
03-11-2011, 09:12 AM
I quit reading the responses this morning but I do have a "thought" about babies in general...

there is a 3 acre cemetery behind my house...full of dead babies from about 1820 to about 1920. My late aunt said she studied the grave markers years ago and noted that the children died generally between birth and by their second summer...after that time frame the babies seemed to stop dying.

with that in mind and considering the extremes some vegetarians seem to go to...I suggest there may be good reason not to "adjust" mother nature for very young children...talk them to vegetarianism after that growth period...

Peerie Maa
03-11-2011, 09:23 AM
So Nick, all those societies where vegetarian diets are part of the religion and culture, Hindu, buddhist et al are dominated by small brained, intellectually retarded people are they?:d
I can name a few people who would put me in that category but I doubt they think it has anything to do with being vegan!!:D

Unlike all of the sophisticated babies in "developed" countries they probably get a start on Mothers Best. Followed by lots of dairy products. Do you want some rancid yak butter in that tea?

S.V. Airlie
03-11-2011, 09:25 AM
There are many reasons for that Phillip/...Diptheria, Whooping cough, influenza, typhus, yellow fever, even small pox.cholera, Scarlet fever, polio,
My uncle died in the 1918 influenza epidemic andt hen again my Guncle was struck by lightening on the 9th hole.

It is not nec diet..perhaps the quality of the food we eat/ate in general..Remember the Sinclair's book, The Jungle.

I'm just glad the article was not in Allison's sights. Not the US but Crete

Allison
03-11-2011, 09:28 AM
Unlike all of the sophisticated babies in "developed" countries they probably get a start on Mothers Best. Followed by lots of dairy products. Do you want some rancid yak butter in that tea?

I know some very smart people who grew up on rancid yak butter tea!:d

S.V. Airlie
03-11-2011, 09:30 AM
I know some very smart people who grew up on rancid yak butter tea!:d

I'm not thinking Allison that drinking rancid yak milk was an indication of having smarts..YUK!!!!:rolleyes::rolleyes:

Allison
03-11-2011, 09:33 AM
HH Dalai Lama for one and a bunch of other Tibetan teachers that I know of!
No dummies among that lot!

S.V. Airlie
03-11-2011, 09:34 AM
It just sounds awful Allison...Does the Dalai Llama call it yogurt at least?

Peerie Maa
03-11-2011, 09:37 AM
See pages 12 - 14 of ]u[The Mad Cowboy[/u], by Howaard F. Lyman
Feedlot fattened beef.cattle are fed rendered and ground animal carcasses, sometimes including euthanize cats dogs, also road kill. Added to that is animal excrement, for example chicken litter.

If this wasn't bad enough the mixture contains large amounts of antibiotics and growth hormones.

Never forget that ruminants don't live on what they eat. They feed that to the bacteria in their stomachs and then digest the surplus bacteria. The bacteria happily live on chicken droppings and ground up animal protein.

The problem with feeding cows on cow is that it concentrated the prions, which then cause New Variant Creutzfeldt–Jakob disease. That is also why it is not a good idea to eat carnivores.

Allison
03-11-2011, 09:38 AM
These days I don't think they eat too much of the rancid stuff!
I think that was in the "old country" when they were all kids!:d

Phillip Allen
03-11-2011, 09:40 AM
There are many reasons for that Phillip/...Diptheria, Whooping cough, influenza, typhus, yellow fever, even small pox.cholera, Scarlet fever, polio,
My uncle died in the 1918 influenza epidemic andt hen again my Guncle was struck by lightening on the 9th hole.

It is not nec diet..perhaps the quality of the food we eat/ate in general..Remember the Sinclair's book, The Jungle.

I'm just glad the article was not in Allison's sights. Not the US but Crete

yes, I was aware of that...it just seems best not to "stress" a baby's system during that time period for those reasons (if it doesn't stress the baby's system then fine...no one has talked about that yet)

Allison
03-11-2011, 09:42 AM
Never forget that ruminants don't live on what they eat. They feed that to the bacteria in their stomachs and then digest the surplus bacteria. The bacteria happily live on chicken droppings and ground up animal protein.

The problem with feeding cows on cow is that it concentrated the prions, which then cause New Variant Creutzfeldt–Jakob disease. That is also why it is not a good idea to eat carnivores.

Isn't that how they got that big outbreak of New Variant Creutzfeldt–Jakob disease (mad cow disease) in the UK? Wasn't it sheep with scabies or something similar, that they had been feeding the cows?

S.V. Airlie
03-11-2011, 09:43 AM
Drift..In the early sixties the Swedish warship Vasa was brought to the surface after sinking in 1628.. There were supposedly barrels of rancid butter aboard which upon being brought back up after 300 yrs was still good but rancid. I think some divers sampled it..but they only called it passable fare with tongue in cheek..

Phillip Allen
03-11-2011, 09:44 AM
Isn't that how they got that big outbreak of New Variant Creutzfeldt–Jakob disease (mad cow disease) in the UK? Wasn't it sheep with scabies or something similar, that they had been feeding the cows?

scabies is a parasite...is that what you meant to say?

wardd
03-11-2011, 09:45 AM
vegetarians should be barred from eating meat

Allison
03-11-2011, 09:48 AM
The sheep had been slaughtered because they had scabies and then the carcases were ground up for cattle feed. But as Nick said it was the meat not the scabies that caused the problem .

Bruce Hooke
03-11-2011, 10:10 AM
My experience has been that most vegetarians pay a lot more attention to getting a good diet (and even more to what they feed their children) than a lot of omnivores who eat and feed their children an absolutely horrible diet of heavily processed food. Vegans even more so. I'd say that on average a baby would be better off with a vegetarian family than with a lot of omnivorous families!

P.I. Stazzer-Newt
03-11-2011, 10:14 AM
The sheep had been slaughtered because they had scabies and then the carcases were ground up for cattle feed. But as Nick said it was the meat not the scabies that caused the problem .

You might want to check the nouns.

carefully.

switters
03-11-2011, 10:17 AM
Restricting someones right to adopt based on diet preferences which have been shown to be healthy is unethical.

However, becoming a vegetarian is not an ethical choice. Non vegetarians are not immoral.

"pertaining to or dealing with morals or the principles of morality; pertaining to right and wrong in conduct."

Allison
03-11-2011, 10:19 AM
You might want to check the nouns.

carefully.
???

Allison
03-11-2011, 10:23 AM
However, becoming a vegetarian is not an ethical choice.
In my case and for a vast majority of vegetarians it most definitely is an ethical decision.
Usually related to the desire to avoid the extra pain and suffering that comes to the animals that are raised and then slaughtered for food when there are plenty of alternatives that don't create the same suffering. Also a vegetarian diet has a lower impact on the environment.
So it is most definitely an ethical decision.

Bruce Hooke
03-11-2011, 10:35 AM
However, becoming a vegetarian is not an ethical choice. Non vegetarians are not immoral.

"pertaining to or dealing with morals or the principles of morality; pertaining to right and wrong in conduct."


In my case and for a vast majority of vegetarians it most definitely is an ethical decision.
Usually related to the desire to avoid the extra pain and suffering that comes to the animals that are raised and then slaughtered for food when there are plenty of alternatives that don't create the same suffering. Also a vegetarian diet has a lower impact on the environment.
So it is most definitely an ethical decision.

This, I think, is the reason why there often seems to be some tension between vegetarians and non-vegetarians even when the vegetarians do their best NOT to try to impose their view of what is ethical (when it comes to diet) on other people. As Allison noted, for most vegetarians the decision to be vegetarian is at least in part based on what they view as moral or ethical. However, in my experience most vegetarians also understand that choice of diet is a very personal choice and that while they may view not eating meat as the more ethical choice they are slow to judge people who do eat meat. However, the mere fact of their choice to be vegetarian implies a judgment that not eating meat is the more ethical choice especially if the vegetarian explains the reasons for their choice.

What I think many vegetarians are less likely to withhold judgment on is the people who consume a regular diet of fast food restaurant fare and similar highly processed food! :D

Bruce Hooke
03-11-2011, 10:40 AM
For what its worth, my recollections of Crete (from 30 years ago mind you) was that while it was definitely a basically western country it was MUCH more conservative and traditional than much of the rest of western Europe. I'm sure things have changed a good bit in the last 30 years but it still does not really surprise me that they would have more traditional views when it comes to diet, especially given that the traditional diet in that area is, as I recall, pretty heavy on meat.

P.I. Stazzer-Newt
03-11-2011, 10:47 AM
???

This one f'rinstance (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scabies)

Peerie Maa
03-11-2011, 10:53 AM
Isn't that how they got that big outbreak of New Variant Creutzfeldt–Jakob disease (mad cow disease) in the UK? Wasn't it sheep with scabies or something similar, that they had been feeding the cows?

The disease in sheep is scrapie, courtesy Wiki:
Scrapie is a fatal, degenerative disease that affects the nervous systems of sheep, goats and occasionally even wasps.[1] It is one of several transmissible spongiform encephalopathies (TSEs), which are related to bovine spongiform encephalopathy (BSE or "mad cow disease") and chronic wasting disease of deer. Like other spongiform encephalopathies, scrapie is caused by a prion.[2] Scrapie has been known since the 18th century (1732) and does not appear to be transmissible to humans.
By feeding animal protein to cows, the prions were concentrated in the cows, causing BSE, and the similar human condition CJD in those who eat infected nervous tissue. A Papua New Guinean disease kuru is a similar condition.

Allison
03-11-2011, 11:05 AM
This one f'rinstance (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scabies)


Wasn't it sheep with scabies or something similar

That's why I phrased it as a question. I obviously wasn't sure but it rang a bell when Nick posted about CJD but I wasn't sure of the condition that the sheep had.
I appreciate both you and Nick helping me out with that.
Sheep and CJD etc are not exactly my field of interest as a vegan!:d:d

Peerie Maa
03-11-2011, 11:12 AM
If humans had evolved from a vegetarian ancestor rather than an omnivorous one, would grazing animals have been wiped out as vermin? Just as we have (nearly) wiped out the animals that prey on our flocks.

Discuss.

Allison
03-11-2011, 11:23 AM
If humans had evolved from a vegetarian ancestor rather than an omnivorous one, would grazing animals have been wiped out as vermin? Just as we have (nearly) wiped out the animals that prey on our flocks.

Discuss.
Not a lot of large scale wild herbivore populations left in Europe or the States in areas that humans have claimed for grazing animals anyway! Pretty much the same in most of the rest of the world too outside of game reserves and parks. obviously there are some areas where this is not true but they are usually areas we haven't claimed for farms yet!
A lot of Africa's grazing wild animals survived because the tstetse fly killed off cattle but they were immune.

Dutch
03-11-2011, 11:43 AM
However, becoming a vegetarian is not an ethical choice.

really?

back to the original topic - seems to me that folks who are compassionate enough to not eat meat, are exactly the sort of folk who should be moved to first place in line, when they start passing out babies.

P.I. Stazzer-Newt
03-11-2011, 12:23 PM
Not a lot of large scale wild herbivore populations left in Europe or the States....

Nope - but a fair number of domesticated animals

Meat is murder - but vegitarianism is genocide.

Bill Fisher
03-11-2011, 01:41 PM
really?

back to the original topic - seems to me that folks who are compassionate enough to not eat meat, are exactly the sort of folk who should be moved to first place in line, when they start passing out babies.

My wife and I adopted in '08. For those who have not, this thread's story relates only a very minor inconvenience to those working through the adoption machine. The process is very expensive and requires much perseverance and a thick skin. I can’t imagine it would take much to change the agency's mind about being Vegetarians. If the prospective parents can't work through that then my guess is that the adoption wouldn't make it for other reasons as well and the real story is not about being Vegetarians at all.

During the adoption process (ours took 2 years), you hear about the whack-job adoptive parents that kill and maim and abuse their children and you realize that the process is not tough enough.

So no, I don't assume that Vegetarians would make good parents. In fact I know of no one thing that assures that someone is a good parent, I've seen too much, the responsible agency needs to tough.


Bill

Ian McColgin
03-11-2011, 01:50 PM
Bill is right. Being vegetarian is not an indicator of being either a good or a bad parent. That's exactly why hanging up an adoption for this reason is so very very stupid. And culturally arrogant. And, contrary to what I understand of relevant Greek law, unlawful religious discrimination since the anti-vegetarian bit would, if applied to all families, prevent parents to adhere to a number of the world's great religions from becoming adoptive parents in Greece.

Bill Fisher
03-11-2011, 03:11 PM
Bill is right. Being vegetarian is not an indicator of being either a good or a bad parent. That's exactly why hanging up an adoption for this reason is so very very stupid. And culturally arrogant. And, contrary to what I understand of relevant Greek law, unlawful religious discrimination since the anti-vegetarian bit would, if applied to all families, prevent parents to adhere to a number of the world's great religions from becoming adoptive parents in Greece.


Ian,

No doubt, I saw a lot that was unfair and many people suffered for it, both prospective parents and children.

But I can't get around the ones that when terribly wrong. How do you weed out inappropriate adults from becoming adoptive parents, the kind that put there child on an airplane, by themselves, and send them back to the country of origin because it was too much trouble (much less those that killed their child because it was too much trouble). I don't know, but I would rather be too careful than otherwise.

Also, just to make the whole thing more frustrating, I met a lot of very dedicated people that were doing everything in there power to make better lives for children. To the point that I was very humbled to be associated with them, they do more good in this world than I have the energy for. That is why I will give the govt. official the benefit of the doubt and I suspect that the official had additional reasons for denying (probably delaying is a more accurate word) the adoption, which was my point.

Bill

Allison
03-11-2011, 06:45 PM
Meat is murder - but vegitarianism is genocide.

Stas, you helped me out above so now I'm happy to return the favour!

You missed out the laughing faces:D:D:D.
That's what you normally put after a joke because that's obviously what your comment is!!

Being vegetarian is no indicator of someones general personality that's for sure but it's equally not suitable grounds for denying their application for adoption!
In fact it shows a major bias and a total lack of real information on the topic.

Phillip Allen
03-11-2011, 07:27 PM
all other posts aside...I get the feeling, whenever I listen to the local veggies, that they consider themselves to be superior to mere you-mean-beans...it flies in my face and though I don't often attack, the invisible hackles are up just the same

I also categorize them with the local man who killed himself with gangrene because he thought hospitals were inferior to his homeopathic remedies

DARWIN SEZ NO!

watson1990
03-12-2011, 01:14 AM
If we are not supposed to eat animals,,,,then how come they make 'em outta Meat ???

P.I. Stazzer-Newt
03-12-2011, 03:28 AM
Stas, you helped me out above so now I'm happy to return the favour!

You missed out the laughing faces:D:D:D.
That's what you normally put after a joke because that's obviously what your comment is!!
.....

Wrong.

Meli
03-12-2011, 03:34 AM
Has anyone ever tried to get fresh fruit and veggies on crete? or any other Greek island out of season?
maybe it's improved, but 8 years ago the offerings were pretty woeful. :D

Meli
03-12-2011, 03:40 AM
really?

back to the original topic - seems to me that folks who are compassionate enough to not eat meat, are exactly the sort of folk who should be moved to first place in line, when they start passing out babies.

We had a Vegan couple here a few years back that fed their baby rice water, guess what? it died.
Vegitarianism is not a test of intelligence or compassion.
I think there may be some more to the story.

Meli
03-12-2011, 03:42 AM
I quit reading the responses this morning but I do have a "thought" about babies in general...

there is a 3 acre cemetery behind my house...full of dead babies from about 1820 to about 1920. My late aunt said she studied the grave markers years ago and noted that the children died generally between birth and by their second summer...after that time frame the babies seemed to stop dying.

with that in mind and considering the extremes some vegetarians seem to go to...I suggest there may be good reason not to "adjust" mother nature for very young children...talk them to vegetarianism after that growth period...

Penicillin.

purri
03-12-2011, 04:12 AM
PETA. People Eating Tasty Animals.

Phillip Allen
03-12-2011, 04:21 AM
We had a Vegan couple here a few years back that fed their baby rice water, guess what? it died.
Vegitarianism is not a test of intelligence or compassion.
I think there may be some more to the story.

What, exactly, is rice water

PeterSibley
03-12-2011, 04:55 AM
Phil ,if you are interested in loosing weight ...I recommend it .:D

Phillip Allen
03-12-2011, 05:02 AM
Phil ,if you are interested in loosing weight ...I recommend it .:D

I'm so fat now that it takes two trips just to haul a$$

PeterSibley
03-12-2011, 05:20 AM
How the hell did you let that happen Phil ????

Phillip Allen
03-12-2011, 05:23 AM
How the hell did you let that happen Phil ????

pretty simple really...I've been bored as heck for about 4 years and never came up with anything I wanted to do that burned fat

Meli
03-12-2011, 05:33 AM
What, exactly, is rice water

The starchy water you get when you boil rice|:(

Phillip Allen
03-12-2011, 05:38 AM
The starchy water you get when you boil rice|:(

Hmmm...then it's "boil juice" ... wonderful :(

Phillip Allen
03-12-2011, 05:39 AM
Hmmm...then it's "boil juice" ... wonderful :(
any charges for mistreating the child?

bobbys
03-12-2011, 05:49 AM
I once ate a vegetable.

PeterSibley
03-12-2011, 05:56 AM
pretty simple really...I've been bored as heck for about 4 years and never came up with anything I wanted to do that burned fat

except eat ? how the hell does a man get bored in this world ?

PeterSibley
03-12-2011, 05:58 AM
any charges for mistreating the child?

Yep ,manslaughter ...childslaughter .:(:mad::(

Meli
03-12-2011, 06:02 AM
I think so, cant remember the details

Phillip Allen
03-12-2011, 06:08 AM
except eat ? how the hell does a man get bored in this world ?

a long and boring explanation would be required to answer your question...it's not a secret but I doubt you would be enthralled to hear it

one of the vicissitudes of chronic, mild depression

PeterSibley
03-12-2011, 06:11 AM
I can wear that Phil ...I've never had time and have too many people depending on me ...a definite anti depressive I've heard .


My sympathy ..good luck .

Allison
03-12-2011, 07:06 AM
Yep ,manslaughter ...childslaughter .:(:mad::(
Any parents that abuse their children deserve to be punished.

Allison
03-12-2011, 08:52 AM
Meat is murder - but vegitarianism is genocide.I let this sit for a while to see if you were going to explain it or not Stas.
So do you care to explain what you mean by it as you told me it wasn't meant as a joke?
I just don't get the correlation at all.
Thanks!

MiddleAgesMan
03-12-2011, 09:03 AM
In my case and for a vast majority of vegetarians it most definitely is an ethical decision.
Usually related to the desire to avoid the extra pain and suffering that comes to the animals that are raised and then slaughtered for food when there are plenty of alternatives that don't create the same suffering. Also a vegetarian diet has a lower impact on the environment.
So it is most definitely an ethical decision.

I've been an almost-vegetarian my entire life. My sister bought into it as a child and has never knowingly eaten meat of any kind. She has raised three vegetarian kids and the whole lot of 'em are healthy as ponies. :)

But I can't buy into this ethics business. Plants are also living things but we harvest, cook, and consume them. We think we are being more ethical because the plants lack the means to complain. :)

Allison
03-12-2011, 09:07 AM
I've been an almost-vegetarian my entire life. My sister bought into it as a child and has never knowingly eaten meat of any kind. She has raised three vegetarian kids and the whole lot of 'em are healthy as ponies. :)

But I can't buy into this ethics business. Plants are also living things but we harvest, cook, and consume them. We think we are being more ethical because the plants lack the means to complain. :)

Healthy vegie kids is the usual result.

As for plants, I think the argt. is that they totally lack a nervous system so the idea that they feel pain but can't voice it is one that is not usually given too much weight.
The impact on the animals is obvious but it is the environmental costs that are a real danger too.

Tristan
03-12-2011, 10:44 AM
I can't believe that in this day and age there is any argument about the efficacy and healthiness of a vegetarian diet. It's easy (and healthy) to thrive on a vegetarian diet, period! An extreme example, for centuries the Tarahumara Indians in Mexico have been running footraces through the mountains. races that can last for several days and cover up to 150 miles. Scientists wondered how they could do so, and why they had ZERO heart trouble, as their diets were mostly tortillas, beans and chili peppers. They ate an occasional egg but very little meat. In recent years,when these indians moved into citeis and adopted diets with more fat and meat they began to develop heart disease. There's been a LOT of research on their traditional diet which show it is adequate and healthy. Google them.

http://www.ajcn.org/content/31/7/1131.full.pdf

Phillip Allen
03-12-2011, 11:43 AM
I let this sit for a while to see if you were going to explain it or not Stas.
So do you care to explain what you mean by it as you told me it wasn't meant as a joke?
I just don't get the correlation at all.
Thanks!
Oh,Allison, I got it. Whether you agreed with it or not is beside the point...it speaks to the extinction of species because they were seen as competitors of one sort or another...a cute little phrase is all

Phillip Allen
03-12-2011, 11:45 AM
Healthy vegie kids is the usual result.

As for plants, I think the argt. is that they totally lack a nervous system so the idea that they feel pain but can't voice it is one that is not usually given too much weight.
The impact on the animals is obvious but it is the environmental costs that are a real danger too.

exceptionalism...

P.I. Stazzer-Newt
03-12-2011, 03:40 PM
I let this sit for a while to see if you were going to explain it or not Stas.
So do you care to explain what you mean by it as you told me it wasn't meant as a joke?
I just don't get the correlation at all.
Thanks!

The only reason folks in this country get to see a spring lamb skipping across a field is that in the very near future someone will pay money to eat it.

No Meat eaten - No Lambs bred.

Same applies to almost all the other domesticated species.

Ian McColgin
03-12-2011, 03:50 PM
People are free to eat meat or not. Since it's well proven scientificly that a non-meat diet can be at least as healthy as a meat diet can be - and either can be pretty unhealthy as well, though more meat diets are killers than the other way around - seems to me the topic is really what if any excuse has Greece in making a special study of vegitarian adoptive parents? Do they actually think there is something unhealthy about being vegitarian? Does anyone on this forum who likes meat, as I do, imagine that there is anything unhealthy about a vegetarian diet? Does anyone think being vegitarian should preclude being an adoptive parent?

PeterSibley
03-12-2011, 05:55 PM
The only reason folks in this country get to see a spring lamb skipping across a field is that in the very near future someone will pay money to eat it.

No Meat eaten - No Lambs bred.

Same applies to almost all the other domesticated species.

True... but in this country , grazing land would also be natural habitat for wildlife if it wasn't used for grazing ,something hat degenerates land in Australia .Not the same in the UK of course ,but here it would be a fairly direct trade off .Spring lambs for market or wallabies not for market .

Peerie Maa
03-12-2011, 06:00 PM
The only reason folks in this country get to see a spring lamb skipping across a field is that in the very near future someone will pay money to eat it.

No Meat eaten - No Lambs bred.

Same applies to almost all the other domesticated species.

You could also postulate that in order to grow enough food to support a totally vegetarian humanity, no other grazers would be allowed to survive to compete with "us", which would also remove the carnivorous fauna that prey on the herbivores.

PeterSibley
03-12-2011, 06:24 PM
You could also postulate that in order to grow enough food to support a totally vegetarian humanity, no other grazers would be allowed to survive to compete with "us", which would also remove the carnivorous fauna that prey on the herbivores.

My dear ... that happened a long time ago ...have you seen any bears or wolves lately ?

Peerie Maa
03-12-2011, 06:32 PM
My dear ... that happened a long time ago ...have you seen any bears or wolves lately ?

We still have several sorts of deer, and you have lots of marsupials. Would they not have gone the way of our wolves and bear and your mega-fauna?

Phillip Allen
03-12-2011, 06:33 PM
My dear ... that happened a long time ago ...have you seen any bears or wolves lately ?

no...not in a geologic sense

Meli
03-12-2011, 06:46 PM
My cousin is a Vegan.(he was only a vegitarian until I explained about rennet :chuckle)
Hard to find a fatter, flabbier, more pallid specimen :D

Vegan he may be, pity his cooking talents rely on the English 1960's school of Dietary health :D

PeterSibley
03-12-2011, 06:51 PM
We still have several sorts of deer, and you have lots of marsupials. Would they not have gone the way of our wolves and bear and your mega-fauna?

I'd suggest that in hypothetical vegetarian society , non arable land would be largely left to wildlife , with the exception of fibre production.

Allison
03-12-2011, 07:26 PM
Huge amounts of grain and other products are diverted into the production of meat at this stage.
60% of all soy produced is used as stock feed which then produces meat protein at an efficiency rating of around 10%. So you are wasting 90% of the protein produced as soy by using it as stock feed.
You can feed a lot of people with all that wasted food!

Peerie Maa
03-12-2011, 07:29 PM
I'd suggest that in hypothetical vegetarian society , non arable land would be largely left to wildlife , with the exception of fibre production.

If only they could be trained to stay there.

Allison
03-12-2011, 07:36 PM
My cousin is a Vegan.(he was only a vegitarian until I explained about rennet :chuckle)
Hard to find a fatter, flabbier, more pallid specimen :D

Vegan he may be, pity his cooking talents rely on the English 1960's school of Dietary health :D

Actually you can get rennetless cheeses!
But the reason that vegans don't use dairy products is actually that the dairy industry requires cows to have calves, half of which are of no benefit to the milk production, bull calves don't give milk!
So they are all slaughtered at some stage in their lives for meat!
The same logic applies to eggs.
Half of all chickens born to egg laying varieties of hens are going to be male. They are not the right variety for meat production so they are turned into feed for their sisters or just dumped in garbage bags to suffocate.

Neither the egg industry or the dairy industry can survive without this wholesale slaughter of half of all the young produced in the industry often in truly barbaric ways!

There are lots of other reasons but these are the main ones.

Captain Intrepid
03-12-2011, 07:44 PM
It's just a damn shame meat tastes so good! When I'm able, I hope to raise some animals of my own in a sustainable way, and supplement that with meat from sustainable ethical hunts like the seal hunt. Try to get out of the system as much as possible.

Meli
03-12-2011, 07:44 PM
personally I'd rather worry about the wholesale slaughter of people than worry if a male chook is doomed to the pot.
Humane treatment and killing of animals is one thing, exhausting brainspace by crusading lost causes is another.

To eat flesh or not is a personal choice some of us have the luxury to indulge in. For many in this world, a chook in the pot is a luxury.

Allison
03-12-2011, 07:54 PM
personally I'd rather worry about the wholesale slaughter of people than worry if a male chook is doomed to the pot.
Humane treatment and killing of animals is one thing, exhausting brainspace by crusading lost causes is another.

To eat flesh or not is a personal choice some of us have the luxury to indulge in. For many in this world, a chook in the pot is a luxury.

And what precludes you worrying about both? A lack of compassion or specieism!
Actually they are linked, the destruction of the environment that is required by factory style meat production is a huge problem that is impacting upon us all!

Meli
03-12-2011, 08:04 PM
Enjoyment of the occaisional free range bacon and eggs :D

PeterSibley
03-12-2011, 08:17 PM
My chooks are an excellent way of recycling food waste from the children and producing excellent fertiliser for the garden ....plus sufficient eggs for the family .

Allison
03-12-2011, 10:31 PM
My chooks are an excellent way of recycling food waste from the children and producing excellent fertiliser for the garden ....plus sufficient eggs for the family .
That works fine. It's the factory farming that is unsustainable and unethical!

PeterSibley
03-12-2011, 11:31 PM
Agreed , I refuse to buy them .Having your own poultry is so very easy and efficient .

Ian McColgin
03-13-2011, 06:55 AM
I've tried to avoid contributing to thread drift, but cannot resist adding a note of irony:


Growers and Killers

There are other omnivorous species who kill and eat
Anything at hand. Bears come to mind,
And vegetarian gorillas have their articulated
Social fabric supportive of aggression and murder,
While cats amuse us by sadistic play
With a terrified robin chick.

But we humans have it all in unbalanced confusion.
We can help the ewe through a tough lambing,
Hand feed the sweet thing,
And then eat him for Easter
To celebrate God's love
And we can make green the land
In concert with our Mother Earth
Or with five tons of nitrate per acre.