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rbgarr
03-06-2011, 01:24 PM
It's boring and way past it's expiration date.

When LFH said it the material was more or less in its infancy as a boat building material. Fiberglass experiments and construction methods were sometimes way too resin rich, resulting in runs and drips which probably looked like what he described so unappealingly.

But even his brother, the equally talented (yes, I said it!) Sidney Herreshoff favored the material: http://www.herreshoffregistry.org/forum/index.php?topic=244.0 (I had to laugh, however, when I read the FS comment repeated yet again in the link! :D)

The skills and knowledge to build top notch composite boats rival those to build good wood boats now, and the types often overlap anyway.

Paul Pless
03-06-2011, 01:32 PM
I love that plastic boat.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3210/2963817537_cb192d97b7_o.jpg

and her wood and frozen snot sister

http://news.mesailing.com/photos/uncategorized/2007/08/27/wg.jpg

Ian McColgin
03-06-2011, 01:40 PM
The term never grows stale, even for those of us who use it lovingly. By the way, read "Hearts of Glass" about Ev Pearson and the other pioneers who blew their noses into a mold.

Michael D. Storey
03-06-2011, 01:44 PM
[QUOTE=rbgarr;2909149]It's boring and way past it's expiration date.

When LFH said it the material was more or less in its infancy as a boat building material. Fiberglass experiments and construction methods were sometimes way too resin rich, resulting in runs and drips which probably looked like what he described so unappealingly.

No runs, no drips, no errors

Bob Adams
03-06-2011, 01:48 PM
I agree, let's use "Clorox Bottle" instead.:D

Roger Long
03-06-2011, 02:00 PM
I used to think that nasal mucus was a fit subject for humor but it's not.

(Say it out loud if you don't get it.)

Paul Pless
03-06-2011, 02:01 PM
hehe

Peter Malcolm Jardine
03-06-2011, 02:34 PM
My dad always said "Tupperware"

JimConlin
03-06-2011, 04:02 PM
Paul, remembering Arion has brightened my day. She was for a while in the fleet at the Coast Guard Academy. As a visiting college sailor I walked the docks and fell in love with that boat. Her newer sistership lives in Marion on the same mooring that Moxie, another of my loves, occupied for years.

Lance F. Gunderson
03-06-2011, 06:49 PM
Uncle Pete liked to call it "that other material."

JMAC
03-06-2011, 08:27 PM
I went from a job at a wooden boat restoration yard in CT to a boatshop in a chicken coop here in Maine. We primarily turned lobster boat hulls into pleasure craft. They looked great, but boy, fiberglass is just plain not fun to work with. I chose to try to get into it and always did good work, but the smell of polyester resin....no good, cutting and grinding= itching at night...no good either. And walking into the shop in the morning after its been empty since the previous day and seeing fiberglass dust floating around in the sunlight streaming in....also no good. And what to do with a f'glass hull when it's all used up? Having said all that, I'm no purist, I've got a glass row boat that is sweet looking and my 1948 Rhodes 18 was sheathed in glass by a previous owner in the early 90's. It'll do....

willmarsh3
03-06-2011, 09:11 PM
One thing is that new f*glass boats at the boat shows here stink something fierce. It's because of offgassing of chemicals used in the manufacture. It probably takes a few weeks to a few months for it to wear off.

orbb
03-06-2011, 09:54 PM
From the body's perspective, there is not much difference between a fiberglass fiber and an asbestos fiber. You need to be very, very careful with both.

davebrown
03-07-2011, 12:40 AM
I prefer floating toilet seat.

Wooden Boat Fittings
03-07-2011, 12:51 AM
Can we give up the 'frozen snot' comment already?

'Smatter, Dave? Not piratical enough for you? :arg

TimH
03-07-2011, 12:57 AM
The lines dont know the difference. Art is art. Not is not.

Larks
03-07-2011, 03:39 AM
Nothing wrong with frozen snot!! Many wonderful boats built from it, it's a fun term and only derogatory of you're particularly thinking that way. Never looses its relevance as a meaning.

Like the term stink pots, used by sailors but usually in a moment of jealousy as one steams past while the sail boat is floundering in fickle breezes.

So I suppose you wouldn't like to hear about frozen snot stink pots??

ARW123
03-07-2011, 03:49 AM
One could say the same about the utterly meaningless "already" suffix....:p

Paul Pless
03-07-2011, 06:50 AM
One could say the same about the utterly meaningless "already" suffix....:pwhatever. . .

Thad
03-07-2011, 07:22 AM
Guess the answer is "no", Dave.

bamamick
03-07-2011, 11:22 AM
I've got both (actually I now have three woodies and two 'glass boats). I have always thought the comment silly.

Mickey Lake

rbgarr
03-07-2011, 01:03 PM
Thad and Mick,

I agree with both sentiments. The thing is that the comment was lame even when first uttered. That it caught on as it did is a mystery. It's so cliched now that it's just sad.

But what Paul said....

|;)

paladin
03-07-2011, 02:24 PM
I'm with Dave. I have always found the remark to be a bit somewhat offensive, even though it was first uttered by Herreshoff. I have always referred to such craft as floating bathtubs. I spent over a year teaching a series of 6 week classes on the use and fabrication of those things, but my heart wasn't in it. I had my third large boat built in NZ just so I could observe the construction techniques of strip planking/cold molding over. I have tried different variations, and different wood construction methods, but always come back to that one, although I have a small open double ender on the drawing board that will be lapstrake when finished, Xynole over.

Bob Adams
03-07-2011, 02:40 PM
I'm with Dave. I have always found the remark to be a bit somewhat offensive, even though it was first uttered by Herreshoff. I have always referred to such craft as floating bathtubs. I spent over a year teaching a series of 6 week classes on the use and fabrication of those things, but my heart wasn't in it. I had my third large boat built in NZ just so I could observe the construction techniques of strip planking/cold molding over. I have tried different variations, and different wood construction methods, but always come back to that one, although I have a small open double ender on the drawing board that will be lapstrake when finished, Xynole over.

Now Chuck, that hurts. You refered to my boat as a bath tub!

Rich Jones
03-07-2011, 02:40 PM
The lines dont know the difference. Art is art. Not is not.

Very true. But, you'll find far more wooden boats with sweet lines than plastic ones. I've never used the FS term, perfering "Clorox bottle"

ILikeRust
03-07-2011, 03:30 PM
http://news.mesailing.com/photos/uncategorized/2007/08/27/wg.jpg

Dayam! If you're gonna build a GRP boat, that's the way to do it!

S/V Laura Ellen
03-07-2011, 05:05 PM
Let's be really clear about this.
Fibreglass is a very good material for production boat building.
The problem (in some cases) isn't the material, it's the design.

Todd Bradshaw
03-07-2011, 05:37 PM
Dayam! If you're gonna build a GRP boat, that's the way to do it!

Yep, but don't let your sailmaker put radial corner patches on a cross-cut sail. Dumb, dumb, dumb. I'd be embarrased to have my label on those.

wizbang 13
03-07-2011, 05:44 PM
Frozen Snot Frozen Snot Frozen Snot

TimH
03-07-2011, 05:46 PM
Keep it up Epoxy boy! :)

I did not find your black lines BTW. I think I remember you taking them before we even moved the boat from Longbranch.

Andrew Craig-Bennett
03-07-2011, 05:55 PM
It may have been I who started it, back in 1998 or so; I will now stop.

earling2
03-08-2011, 12:48 AM
Glad somebody finally brought up the Sidney Herreshoff question. I love most of the designs I've seen of his, more than LFH. Arion is a wicked fast boat. I chased it a few times in local races.
As for glass... I once was the head of the night-shift prototype department at Tillotson-Pearson (not for long) and I've also done large scale glass repairs (30', 38', 47', 45') on hurricane damaged and insurance write-off that owners wanted to keep, and I think Paladin hit it right on. No matter how much you work with glass, even epoxy (a long long long way ahead of polyester in every way), your heart's never really in it. There's just something inherently "wrong" about suiting up like you're going to the moon every day, and breathing through a respirator. The stress of working with that s---t is ridiculous. You're also working for the big corporations like Dupont, using all their products. There's no "small mill" that's gonna hook you up with a 50 gal. drum of resin.

BUT--it's a big but. I think we've finally learned how to design for the stuff, instead of mimicking traditional types, and having gotten away from the horrible IOR boats of the 70s and 80s. The new yachts are mostly vinylester or epoxy, and use vacuum infusing (SCRIMF, or something like that), they have very high glass/resin ratios, they're light and super strong, and, I think, most of them look like something evolved. Plus they finally seem to have gotten over the masthead rig obsession.
Then again, "frozen snot" works for me

Blowtorch
03-08-2011, 01:51 AM
So I suppose you wouldn't like to hear about frozen snot stink pots??How about Frozen Snot laundry liners?

Werona
03-08-2011, 06:10 AM
I have to ask is this a wooden boat forum or a/an epoxy/ frozen snot forum . As for the pictures on this particular thread the most attractive features were the glorious sails atop the balast/boat.

Paul Pless
03-08-2011, 06:59 AM
Dayam! If you're gonna build a GRP boat, that's the way to do it!actually that's a cold-molded epoxy/wood veneer boat :D

ILikeRust
03-08-2011, 08:21 AM
actually that's a cold-molded epoxy/wood veneer boat :D

Ah.

But one could, in theory, construct such a hull with GRP. And if one did, it would be lovelier far than most other GRP boats...

Paul Pless
03-08-2011, 08:27 AM
<sigh>

RichKrough
03-08-2011, 10:33 AM
Reading this makes me wish I had named my sailboat "Booger"

wizbang 13
03-08-2011, 10:59 AM
or," Paul E. Ester"

SchoonerRat
03-08-2011, 11:33 AM
Don't like frozen snot?

Maybe you'd prefer "ping pong ball", or "plastic fantastic", or "milk bottle", or tupperware, or "bass drum", or maybe "hard stuff that really makes you itch and can be used to make a boat"?

More than just because of the mouth it first came from, frozen snot is "wonderfully" descriptive of the material. It has become part of the boating vernacular.

Must we also ban terms like stink-potter, rag-hauler, and canvas back; each of which is also rooted in derogatory sentiments?

BN has been dropped from our language for obvious PC reasons, and I have no problem with that, but I think this is more on the level of "picking nits."

ps: Probably 75% of my boating experience is FRP. I love "frozen snot" almost as much as I love "rotting old dead trees!"

I think one can probably choose one's battles more wisely.

Ron Williamson
03-08-2011, 12:51 PM
I've seen plenty of epoxy,paint and tar boogers on wooden boats.
Sloppy work.Period.
R

Dan McCosh
03-08-2011, 02:24 PM
I have been questioned as to why I sail "That hollowed log."

Roger Long
03-08-2011, 02:57 PM
I love my frozen snot boat.

http://www.rogerlongboats.com/images/Strider.gif

John B
03-08-2011, 03:06 PM
The funny thing being that a lot of the early glass boats are actually built extremely well by guys straight out of wooden boat shops, and they're often overbuilt by todays standards. One of the boats I've sailed many miles on is a 1975 cored thing which is just plain unbelievably strong. It was T boned in a two handed race in the '90's. I know both the guys really welll and they often repeat the story. They looked over at the boat that had lost control and T boned them just in front of the cockpit bulkhead, it'd lost its whole stem fitting and about a foot of its bow. Its jib foil and genoa was lolling around the mast ( rig was still up) and they were imagining the damage.. a carve out to the waterline is what they expected.

Nothing. It never did need a repair apart from paint. I still sail with it.. and I noticed it again on the meerkat video the other day.

Anyway , the point is , there's glass and there's glass. These sika bonded liner things without even any floors for the keelbolts..... you wouldn't put your local tax man in em.

TimH
03-08-2011, 03:52 PM
frozen snot boats can have class.

http://i477.photobucket.com/albums/rr133/hoehnt/Rissa1.gif

http://i477.photobucket.com/albums/rr133/hoehnt/R7.gif

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=396535796939&set=a.72764801939.72933.664566939http://i477.photobucket.com/albums/rr133/hoehnt/2-1.jpg

Paul Pless
03-08-2011, 05:13 PM
I have been questioned as to why I sail "That hollowed log."if people can't see the appeal of your boat, they are beyond hope. . .

John B
03-08-2011, 05:46 PM
Whose is that Tim ?
http://i477.photobucket.com/albums/rr133/hoehnt/2-1.jpg

TimH
03-08-2011, 05:49 PM
Not mine.

John B
03-08-2011, 06:09 PM
Thought that might be a bit quick.

JimConlin
03-08-2011, 06:21 PM
This one served me well.

http://72.230.216.155/Alberg35/Projects/MagicTour/Magic01.JPEG

darroch
03-08-2011, 10:18 PM
http://i477.photobucket.com/albums/rr133/hoehnt/Rissa1.gif

Wish we could talk about this one. Hey, I know, let's pretend she's wood.
Tim, is this your Typhoon? Alberg designed?

TimH
03-08-2011, 10:29 PM
Yep. That be my Alberg designed Cape Dory Typhoon...and no it isn't wood :) People that dont know what she is sometimes assume she is wood though from a distance. For instance the Sheriff marine patrol chased me down last summer to ask about the boat (whew! :)

Woxbox
03-08-2011, 11:00 PM
I've had more than one plastic boat. Not a thing inherently wrong with them, but I'd never want to build one from scratch. The complaints don't hold water anyway, with so many wood boats encased in glass and resin.

TimH
03-08-2011, 11:06 PM
They dont have the warmth of a wood boat. Plastic is cold and sterile.

Woxbox
03-08-2011, 11:12 PM
Sometimes. But I've seen some pretty sterile wood boats. And some people do get very attached to their plastic, metal, even fabric boats. Now, inflatables, not so much.

PhaseLockedLoop
03-09-2011, 02:10 PM
On "frozen snot":

I think the term is spoiled. When LFH used it, it was a witticism, descriptive, dismissive and a bit vulgar. For people who are usually obliged to find their witticisms at second-hand (and who of us isn't) it remained useful for the drippy years afterward. But now that it doesn't describe anything, it's just a witless vulgar insult.

I first heard it in '84, on a trip in Michigan; I was paddling a new Curtis solo canoe, which I already loved, and some bozo shouted that it was frozen snot. Not knowing the term's inner meaning, I took it as an unvarnished insult; if he'd said it in a bar, I might have belted him one.

I suppose the term is still used by older folks whose memory of the drippy beginnings of plastic craft shocked them so profoundly that their powers of subsequent observation were stunted, and by younger folk who may or may not know its origin but fall in with their elder's argot, and not least by folks who are happy for any excuse to use vulgar insults, not caring what they mean.

It's no longer witty. It's witless. Surely the wooden boat clan can assemble some original pithy witticism, or employ more appropriate used ones. (If they do, I'll stop calling them Shirley) I like paladin's "floating bathtub," though in the case of the Boston Whaler it might be "unsinking bathtub.

And before someone shouts at me that I'm free not to use the term, and they're free to use it, I already know it. People can used any outdated witless insults they please, and it doesn't mean they're bad folks. *Just thoughtless and witless in some matters, like everybody.

ILikeRust
03-09-2011, 03:06 PM
They dont have the warmth of a wood boat. Plastic is cold and sterile.

Really?

http://i477.photobucket.com/albums/rr133/hoehnt/Rissa1.gif (http://i477.photobucket.com/albums/rr133/hoehnt/Rissa1.gif)

I dunno, looks pretty warm to me.

I mean, I know what you mean, but like all generalities, it is not true in all cases.

And I'm definitely not trying to get into the whole "wood vs plastic" thing. I like any good-looking boat!

Ian McColgin
03-09-2011, 03:31 PM
Ah, the Cape Dory Typhoon. Lovely boat. Sails great in an easy motion seaworthy way. But try two sleeping below if you really want a rainforest experience of dripping condensation. Better to fill the foot well with anything at hand and sleep out on those narrow seats in the dew. This I know.

wizbang 13
03-09-2011, 03:36 PM
....y'mean, drippy snot?

darroch
03-09-2011, 06:04 PM
http://i477.photobucket.com/albums/rr133/hoehnt/Rissa1.gif (http://i477.photobucket.com/albums/rr133/hoehnt/Rissa1.gif)

If she were mine I'd rig a boomtent and cook, eat and sleep in the cockpit. Dry stowage forward is just a bonus. But mostly I like her shape and size. I think I could handle this much complication. And she lives on her trailer. What's not to like.

Ian McColgin
03-09-2011, 07:03 PM
If arched a boom tent would work but the seats are still too narrow and if widened they would leave too narrow a footwell. I'd not use the boat for cruising. She's a wonderful sailor and the cuddy is a fine place for a portapotty and dry stowage to make daysailing comfortable.

Woxbox
03-09-2011, 08:10 PM
For a good read, check out this book:

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/5146HY75P0L._SS500_.jpg

Much of it a solo sail down the U.S. East Coast in a Typhoon. Well, solo if you don't count his imaginary friends.

TimH
03-09-2011, 11:10 PM
She doesn't live on her trailer except for in the winter. From a slip I can be out sailing in no time. Rigging the boat and dealing with tides and launch ramps every sail would take the fun out of it.

For $100 a month I can go out several times a week...whenever I get the urge, even if its only for a couple of hours.

TimH
03-09-2011, 11:16 PM
For a good read, check out this book:

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/5146HY75P0L._SS500_.jpg

Much of it a solo sail down the U.S. East Coast in a Typhoon. Well, solo if you don't count his imaginary friends.


On its way thanks :)

Tom3
03-10-2011, 07:57 AM
My glass boat turns 50 this season. These Alden Challenger yawls were Aldens first glass hull and deck. More than one new kid at the wooden boat yard I launch at has said, "Is she swellin' up?" as I lift the manhole cover in the wooden cockpit to check for water.

Then more than one "old salt" has come down the dock to say "beautiful wooden boat". One in particular, upon hearing the boat was fiberglass, looked disgusted and headed off. That was embarassing....

Then more than once, an older silver haired sailer, perhaps retired, will recognize the design and recall this era of fiberglass when the world seemed to shift. But the wooden boats stayed.

I'm good with it, it's a snapshot in time, an anomaly today. I would love it just as much if it were all wood. While the hulls and decks were cast in the UK, the rest of the boat was built in wood in Denmark.

I often tell people, "it's wood and glass. The best of both,... or the worst of each", which usually only makes me laugh.

It's looking like it will give another 50 years of good service on the eve of season 50.

TimH
03-17-2011, 04:01 PM
For a good read, check out this book:

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/5146HY75P0L._SS500_.jpg

Much of it a solo sail down the U.S. East Coast in a Typhoon. Well, solo if you don't count his imaginary friends.

Fantastic book! Thanks for the recommendation. Lots of quotable material in there :) I am about 1/2 way done with it. So far he just has his Townie and no Typhoon.

For example:

"I don't rely on seamanship. preparation, or foresight. I squeak through with unmitigated luck, remembering that ancient adage that the gods look down kindly on the imbecile sailor. My advice to you is to take a short cruise to see if you have any luck. If you don't, give up sailing and take up spelunking."

"Then I portaged all the equipment down to the boat, including a small cuddy that I bolted to the coaming. It would give me shelter and a place to hide when i got scared. Much better than putting a bucket over my head."

Bob Cleek
03-17-2011, 07:32 PM
As Monica once said, "Is that snot on my skirt, or are ya just glad to see me?"

Just for the record, LFH never SAID "frozen snot," nor IIRC, referred to fibreglass as such. LFH WROTE the term "frozen snot" in "The Commonsense of Yacht Design," page 325 or 325, if memory serves, referring to plastics in general and, again as I recall, put the words in someone else's mouth, plastics manufacturers, I believe. You can look it up yourself if you have a copy of "Commonsense." There were, in fact, a handful (maybe three) of fibreglass authentic H-28's which he authorized to be built right at the end of LFH's life. These were done in New Zealand. I worked for the brokerage that imported one back in the early 1970's. Great boat. Dunno what happened to the molds. Like so many good early boats back then, people didn't want to pay for quality. It was hard to sell a fully found new boat with top of the line fitttings and construction when Costa Mesa was popping out throw-aways at half the price.

Roger Long
03-17-2011, 07:58 PM
A few years ago, I met Murial Vaughn's cousin who went with her to scatter the ashes. She couldn't look in the urn so she just turned it over and out plopped a plastic bag full of ashes closed with a twist tie. They tried to get it back but it slipped away. The man who hated plastic and wouldn't have anything plastic in his house went bobbing off to his eternal rest in a plastic bag.

Jay Greer
03-17-2011, 08:14 PM
"Ossifide ear wax" doesn't seem to have the same ring of endearment as "frozen snot" does.
Jay

rbgarr
03-17-2011, 08:48 PM
just for the record, LFH never SAID "frozen snot," nor IIRC, referred to fibreglass as such. LFH WROTE the term "frozen snot" in "The Commonsense of Yacht Design," page 325 or 325, if memory serves, referring to plastics in general and, again as I recall, put the words in someone else's mouth, plastics manufacturers, I believe. You can look it up yourself if you have a copy of "Commonsense."

I'm stumped there. My copy of Common Sense Vol I and II only go to pages 170 or so.

rbgarr
03-17-2011, 08:50 PM
One could say the same about the utterly meaningless "already" suffix....:p

LOL! Touche!! :D

Tomcat
03-20-2011, 12:32 PM
It is kinda funny to go back to H, and say he said it was a material in it's infancy, as though at some possibly not to distantly thereafter point in time all the bugs got worked out, and the waterfront wasn't invaded by woefully cheap crap that then fell apart. We now have a whole new series of materials that are of supposed higher quality waiting to see how that shakes out.

"From the body's perspective, there is not much difference between a fiberglass fiber and an asbestos fiber. You need to be very, very careful with both."

That isn't really true. It is true that either can be present in a form that will damage you lungs. But glass can be used in forms that have good integrity, and are not likely to be inhaled. I would worry more about how many houses are insulated where glass is concerned, than I would worry about GRP boat construction. The amateur should give consideration to methods that do not require grinding.

Chris Coose
04-07-2011, 04:50 PM
I have never used the term frozen snot describing a plastic boat.
Fiberglass on it's own, is a word that causes me a bit of a physical response, as in conjuring uncomfortable itching and red nostril rash so I don't use that much either.
Fortunately, I live in a place where there are enough wood boats around so it is usually, "it's not a wood boat"