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Y Bar Ranch
03-03-2011, 09:50 AM
A fascinating set of statistics comparing Texas to Wisconsin. The bottom line is, test results correlate very strongly with ratio of whites to other ethnicities. Texas has a lower ratio of whites to others, and so does not test as well as Wisconsin. But when you focus on particular ethnicities...

- Whites in Texas test higher than whites in Wisconsin
- Blacks in Texas test higher than blacks in Wisconsin
- Hispanics in Texas test higher than Hispanics in Wisconsin
- The gaps between whites, blacks, and hispanics in Texas were smaller than the gaps between them in Wisconsin.

http://iowahawk.typepad.com/iowahawk/2011/03/longhorns-17-badgers-1.html

pefjr
03-03-2011, 10:15 AM
Careful you don't step on some liberal's pc here. Same in NV, yet I read comments like, "we need to replace the teachers in NV. with teachers like Wisc. has. I believe most of the difference boils down to the emphasis parents place on education. You don't mention Asian. Asian statistics blow out all others by a good margin.

Captain Intrepid
03-03-2011, 10:19 AM
I'd say that as 18 percent more students actually graduate in Wisconsin verses Texas, the small differences might be somewhat attributable to lower performing students in Texas dropping out. Plus, I'd say managing to get 25% more students all the way through high school matters more than a few percent on a test. Which scenario contains the more important difference? A student with a diploma and one with no diploma, or one with 88% on a test and one with 78% on a test?

Phillip Allen
03-03-2011, 10:34 AM
I'd say that as 18 percent more students actually graduate in Wisconsin verses Texas, the small differences might be somewhat attributable to lower performing students in Texas dropping out. Plus, I'd say managing to get 25% more students all the way through high school matters more than a few percent on a test. Which scenario contains the more important difference? A student with a diploma and one with no diploma, or one with 88% on a test and one with 78% on a test?

what about "graduating" students whether they can read or not? wouldn't that tend to push graduation rate?

Captain Intrepid
03-03-2011, 10:39 AM
It would, but without any widely documented proof, I tend to take certification such as high school diplomas at face value as properly earned. So if you have proof that Wisconsin commonly graduated illiterates, and Texas does not, please, I'd love to see it.

Y Bar Ranch
03-03-2011, 10:42 AM
The author I cited updated his post with these dropout statistics from 2006-2007 school year, grades 9-12


Event Dropout Rates for 9th-12th graders during 2006-7 school year:

White students: Texas 1.9%, Wisconsin 1.2% (national average 3.0%)
Black students: Texas 5.8%, Wisconsin 7.8% (national 6.8%)
Hispanic students: Texas 5.6%, Wisconsin 5.2% (national 6.5%)
http://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d09/tables/dt09_106.asp

Ian McColgin
03-03-2011, 10:42 AM
Very nicely selected numbers. We'll see how well they hold up to objective analysis.

Phillip Allen
03-03-2011, 10:47 AM
It would, but without any widely documented proof, I tend to take certification such as high school diplomas at face value as properly earned. So if you have proof that Wisconsin commonly graduated illiterates, and Texas does not, please, I'd love to see it.

keeping with broad and not narrow and generally unprovable trends...I have a grandson (adopted) who cannot read at the age of 21...he graduated...that is all the proof I need as to graduation percentages and so on...the rest is just a shell game

if you want to play football politics you will have to play by yourself

Phillip Allen
03-03-2011, 10:49 AM
Very nicely selected numbers. We'll see how well they hold up to objective analysis.

I firmly believe that the majority of "objective analyses" are not objective but agenda driven...follow the money...that includes Wisconsin...that includes Texas

if you don't believe that, watch how this thread divides up between conservative and liberal

Captain Intrepid
03-03-2011, 10:59 AM
"White and Hispanic Texas students indeed seem to dropout at a higher rate than their counterparts in Wisconsin, although in both cases (a) the difference is not statistically significant; and (b) in both cases, both states are significantly below the national average"

They are both below the national average, but 1.9 is 158% of 1.2. I'd call that significant, especially since in both states white students are the majority. When you look at the numbers for the last 15 years, Texas averages twice as many dropouts as Wisconsin with an average graduation rate of 71% verses 85%.

http://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d10/tables/dt10_112.asp

Phillip Allen
03-03-2011, 11:02 AM
"White and Hispanic Texas students indeed seem to dropout at a higher rate than their counterparts in Wisconsin, although in both cases (a) the difference is not statistically significant; and (b) in both cases, both states are significantly below the national average"

They are both below the national average, but 1.9 is 158% of 1.2. I'd call that significant, especially since in both states white students are the majority. When you look at the numbers for the last 15 years, Texas averages twice as many dropouts as Wisconsin with an average graduation rate of 71% verses 85%.

http://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d10/tables/dt10_112.asp
an aside (I think)...
of the Texas dropouts and Wisconsin dropouts, which ones become a burden on society...through various welfare handouts and so on and compared to in the work force...?

leikec
03-03-2011, 01:02 PM
keeping with broad and not narrow and generally unprovable trends...I have a grandson (adopted) who cannot read at the age of 21...he graduated...that is all the proof I need as to graduation percentages and so on...the rest is just a shell game

if you want to play football politics you will have to play by yourself


Does your grandson (adopted) have parents? Can they read?

If so, then what is their problem, and why didn't they make sure that their son (adopted) could read?


Jeff C

Phillip Allen
03-03-2011, 01:05 PM
Does your grandson (adopted) have parents? Can they read?

If so, then what is their problem, and why didn't they make sure that their son (adopted) could read?


Jeff C
it's never as simple as we want it to be...Timmy has the IQ of a damp sponge...prolly his mother's fault (drugs)
the point is that he was graduated and that makes a complete lie out of stats

peb
03-03-2011, 01:26 PM
Very nicely selected numbers. We'll see how well they hold up to objective analysis.

What? Numbers for both test scores and drop-out rates are provided, and you claim they are "nicely selected"? They seem pretty broad to me. What other numbers would you be interested in? I suppose you could use income ranges instead of ethnicity, but I strongly suspect the results would be the same.

It is the overall numbers that liberals such as as your self always pull out similar to post #3 to beat Texas over the head. These numbers provide objective analysis to that practise, not the other way around. Denying that is just being stubborn to the point of stupidity.

peb
03-03-2011, 01:34 PM
"White and Hispanic Texas students indeed seem to dropout at a higher rate than their counterparts in Wisconsin, although in both cases (a) the difference is not statistically significant; and (b) in both cases, both states are significantly below the national average"

They are both below the national average, but 1.9 is 158% of 1.2. I'd call that significant, especially since in both states white students are the majority. When you look at the numbers for the last 15 years, Texas averages twice as many dropouts as Wisconsin with an average graduation rate of 71% verses 85%.

http://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d10/tables/dt10_112.asp

Well your assumption is wrong. As of 08-09, in Texas the percentage of whites in Texas public schools was 34%, hispanics 49%, blacks 14%. Your assumption is not even close.

I am sure that if you looked at the differences in ethnic enrollment percentages between the two states, did the math and applied the ethnic graduation ratios imaging Wisconsin's ethnicity was the same, you would find Texas would come out ahead. But I admit to that being a guess, maybe Wisconsin only has 50% whites (the number to keep them in frount), but I bet it is higher. If you are interested, I will let you find the information, since even you claim they have more than 50% whites.

George Jung
03-03-2011, 01:41 PM
Interesting correlations, but - what about other correlative factors?

The opening post, and the 'study' referenced, seems motivated primarily for inflammatory, and prejudicial reasons.

Someone mentioned asian students - and the studies I've seen point to the family culture, and expectations, as the primary reason for their superior grades/test scores. Apply the same metric to any other ethnic group - or individual - and voila'! Genius.

peb
03-03-2011, 02:00 PM
Interesting correlations, but - what about other correlative factors?

The opening post, and the 'study' referenced, seems motivated primarily for inflammatory, and prejudicial reasons.

Someone mentioned asian students - and the studies I've seen point to the family culture, and expectations, as the primary reason for their superior grades/test scores. Apply the same metric to any other ethnic group - or individual - and voila'! Genius.

George, did you read the article, I see nothing motivated by prejudicial reasons. The motivation seems simply to explain the overall numbers that Krugman cited (has there ever been a more disingenuous pundit?).

It is way to overlly sensitive to say that such numbers should not be analyzed on ethnic lines. That is like denying a elephant in the room. It is no slam on hispanics or blacks to state that their education performance is lower, as there are socio-economic reasons for the lower numbers. And no one could ever address those reasons if the numbers were not looked at along ethnic lines.

George Jung
03-03-2011, 02:08 PM
Certainly these are reasons - among many others.

The problem with comparing ethnicity/ performance is multiple; while this may be a contributing factor, there are many others, which simply are not addressed. While I'm not offended, I'd say this approach is weak, intellectually, but also un-PC (I dislike PC, btw) - and as such, that tends to direct the debate along those terms, effectively derailing it.

What is lost in this 'discussion' - both states excel, relatively, in educating their kids.

Waddie
03-03-2011, 02:44 PM
There is an old saying in education,

"Teachers pretend to teach and students pretend to learn". How about students taking algebra in 9th grade when they can't do simple addition or read a measuring tape? Or tenth and eleventh graders studying literature when they can't write a simple sentence?

Another old saying, "Stack 'em high and teach 'em cheap". Districts will advertise that they have an "average student to adult" ratio of 18-1. In this figure every adult in the building counts in the computation, including janitors, administrators, lunch ladies, and security people. I've seen PE classes with 60 kids in them in a school with an 18-1 ratio.

regards,
Waddie

WI-Tom
03-03-2011, 03:17 PM
Interesting...

Texas is seldom held up as an example of good education in the circles I move in (I teach high school English). I'll have to read this over more carefully. Texas usually gets mentioned for its role in dumbing down textbooks and rewriting science in favor of religion--I don't know how accurate that perspective is, but it is the usual one I hear.

But teachers have very little incentive to fail a student in any state, I fear. And where merit pay systems are in place, they have all the incentive in the world to inflate grades and test scores. I trust test scores very very little--I think most good teachers are suspicious of them.

I teach mostly 11th and 12th graders and many of them can't identify or define a subject or verb when they begin my class. If they don't know it by the end of the semester, they aren't trying. Compulsory education has made school a burden for US students--they don't value it much, and very few feel like they have to work hard at anything. It is sad. The system is largely broken; despite that, good teachers accomplish a lot within the autonomy of their own classrooms, at least with students who want to learn.

And outside of Milwaukee, Wisconsin is largely white (in my 1500-student high school, about 97% white).

Tom

Waddie
03-03-2011, 03:36 PM
Interesting...

Texas is seldom held up as an example of good education in the circles I move in (I teach high school English). I'll have to read this over more carefully. Texas usually gets mentioned for its role in dumbing down textbooks and rewriting science in favor of religion--I don't know how accurate that perspective is, but it is the usual one I hear.

But teachers have very little incentive to fail a student in any state, I fear. And where merit pay systems are in place, they have all the incentive in the world to inflate grades and test scores. I trust test scores very very little--I think most good teachers are suspicious of them.

I teach mostly 11th and 12th graders and many of them can't identify or define a subject or verb when they begin my class. If they don't know it by the end of the semester, they aren't trying. Compulsory education has made school a burden for US students--they don't value it much, and very few feel like they have to work hard at anything.

Most of the teachers I've ever known were good, hard-working, competent people who are the victims of a broken system as much as the kids are, maybe more. I am also tired of every failure of the educational system being dumped on them. Teachers don't control the curriculum, policies or the family structure (or lack of it) of the local community. They have little say in class size, money per student, discipline policy or grading rubric ( overall). If you fail too many students, no matter how deserving, the teacher will probably get a visit from an administrator and complaints from parents. So pass them on to the next unfortunate teacher until they're out the door--with a diploma. Doesn't matter if they're in Wisconsin or Texas, it's the same game.

regards,
Waddie

Phillip Allen
03-03-2011, 04:32 PM
Thanks WI-Tom

"many of them can't identify or define a subject or verb"

Now THAT'S funny...lj certainly cannot! I once referred to "Reno supporters" and he claimed that Reno was the subject of the sentence... sucked as lot of other unwary acolytes in too!

I'd have said something but the usual suspects would simply have stated that I'm a bricklayer with a failed-career (lj's determination that went unquestioned here) and written me off. I find it hard to work with such flagrant stupidity

B_B
03-03-2011, 04:47 PM
I find it hard to work with such flagrant stupidity
So do some of us, but we keep trying anyway...

WI-Tom
03-03-2011, 05:04 PM
Phillip,

I should say that students who can't find subjects, verbs, and do a whole lot more don't pass my class. Just a week ago I had one hockey player talk his parents into pulling him from the class so his failing grade wouldn't affect his sports eligibility...

Tom

peb
03-03-2011, 05:07 PM
Interesting...

Texas is seldom held up as an example of good education in the circles I move in (I teach high school English). I'll have to read this over more carefully. Texas usually gets mentioned for its role in dumbing down textbooks and rewriting science in favor of religion--I don't know how accurate that perspective is, but it is the usual one I hear.

But teachers have very little incentive to fail a student in any state, I fear. And where merit pay systems are in place, they have all the incentive in the world to inflate grades and test scores. I trust test scores very very little--I think most good teachers are suspicious of them.

I teach mostly 11th and 12th graders and many of them can't identify or define a subject or verb when they begin my class. If they don't know it by the end of the semester, they aren't trying. Compulsory education has made school a burden for US students--they don't value it much, and very few feel like they have to work hard at anything. It is sad. The system is largely broken; despite that, good teachers accomplish a lot within the autonomy of their own classrooms, at least with students who want to learn.

And outside of Milwaukee, Wisconsin is largely white (in my 1500-student high school, about 97% white).

Tom

Well, that would be one of the many pre-conceived notions about Texas, we actually have a fairly decent public education system. It has problems, but compares pretty favorably. And the state's higher education system is second to none, IMO. That would be hard to accomplish if the primary and secondary schools did not do a pretty decent job.

But that's not the standard, liberal, simplistic way of thinking, just the ole "Texas ranked 47th in xxx", without any further thought. As to the articles about text-books, a couple of thoughts come to mind. First of all, many of those battles are fought over creationism/evolution. Not defending either side, and although the aethists on this forum would hat e to admit it, the origins of man and animals is not that critical to the overall success of and education system. Other recent stories, ie changes in the history books, was reported very one sidedly, and the changes being pushed by the state's board were arguably in favor of more objective history. Finally, are your textbooks in wisconsin that weak? If so, blame Texas, if not, don't beleive everything you read. As many textbooks nationwide are based on Texas (and a couple of other major states) standards.

Your a teacher? Maybe you anr your circle of friends should freshen up your skills on critical thinking, it might help your students.

Bill Huson
03-03-2011, 05:35 PM
There is an old saying in education,

"Teachers pretend to teach and students pretend to learn". How about students taking algebra in 9th grade when they can't do simple addition or read a measuring tape? Or tenth and eleventh graders studying literature when they can't write a simple sentence?

Another old saying, "Stack 'em high and teach 'em cheap". Districts will advertise that they have an "average student to adult" ratio of 18-1. In this figure every adult in the building counts in the computation, including janitors, administrators, lunch ladies, and security people. I've seen PE classes with 60 kids in them in a school with an 18-1 ratio.

regards,
Waddie


How true. The school I taught at claimed an 18:1 student/teacher ratio. My last teaching year I had 201 students in 6 classes = 33.5/class. Now if I subtracted the small class of 20 who were classified "low average" my ratio jumped to 36.2/class. Back then teachers were required to sign a contract for the following year. On my last day I was walking out when the Principal (nicknamed Wylie the Fox) accosted me and said, "Mr H, you haven't signed your contract." My reply, "I'm glad you noticed, Wylie. Have a nice life." I kept on walking.

Truthfully, teaching is the one job I regret leaving, but had I stayed I would have gone postal on either the admins or the guidance department, or both. All those pukes were interested in was the school "image" and keeping the parents happy and uninformed. Not a single one of them was interested in the educational welfare of the kids - my kids.

Tristan
03-03-2011, 06:50 PM
Just a side note, I attended 4th and 5th grades in Brownsville Texas in the early 40's. Then moved to Hialeah, Florida. The school in Brownsville was infinitely better than he school in Hialeah, better program, better teachers, better texts, and MUCH better interaction with the students. The kids in my 5th grade in Brownsville were all the right age for their grade. The kids in Hialeah (6th grade) varied from 11 to 16, not a great environment for the younger, smarter kids.

WI-Tom
03-07-2011, 01:01 PM
Your a teacher? Maybe you anr your circle of friends should freshen up your skills on critical thinking, it might help your students.

peb,

didn't you read the part of my post where I said I didn't know if stereotypes about Texas education are accurate or not? I'd call that critical thinking--being open-minded about what I hear, and willing to reserve judgment until I can verify it for myself.


Finally, are your textbooks in wisconsin that weak? If so, blame Texas, if not, don't beleive everything you read. As many textbooks nationwide are based on Texas (and a couple of other major states) standards.

Yes,

textbooks are weak, and Texas may well be part of the problem. I'm an English teachers so I use real books instead. Textbooks are often inaccurate, dumbed down, and just boring. Real books are better. I think science and history teachers should do the same--ditch the boring textbooks and get some good nonfiction books by real writers to introduce ideas and concepts in interesting ways.

Tom