head rebuilding - corrosion and non-marine products, leather reconditioning

[imported_Jimmy]

I seem to remember that there was a reason for not using never-seize in marine applications, but I don't remember what it was or where I heard it. The same with graphite. I'm getting ready to put an old head back together and was thinking of using never-seize (the silvery stuff) in several places and graphite packing in a few places since I can't find the old fasinoned stuff (flax and talow?) in a small enough size. These products will be in close contact with seawater, bronze, and/or brass.

Also, the cup leathers seem to be in good shape, but are dried out. I rubbed them with mink oil hoping it would soften them up and swell them up. They're still pretty hard and haven't swollen at all. They fit better when they were wet, will they still swell now that they have been conditioned with mink oil? Is there something else I can use on them?

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid194/pcb1971432b214e3e9032f750ffd6c8fe/f178afca.jpg

[Gary E]

There is never a reason to not use Never-Seize when putting together something that you may want to take apart at some later date..

Umm... is that enuf negitives to actually mean USE IT ALL THE TIME EVERYTIME???

[Bob Smalser]

I wouldn't go to all the trouble you already have without replacing those leathers with new.

Here you want chrome-tanned shoe leather from your local shoe repair shop or sailmaker. The chrome salts they were tanned with help prevent rot.

[WoodenBNut]

When NOT TO use a "Never-Seize" type of product:
(1) Don't use a "Never-Sieze" type of product on Spark plugs becuase teh "Never-Sieze" will interfere with the heat disapation value of the spark plugs. *This info was from a spark plug mfg.
(2) Don't use a "Never-Sieze" like product on engine head bolts as they will tend to losen and not be torqued to specs after vibration of the engine. * You can use a little light oil on head bolts and you should use a sealer on head bolts.

[Stiletto]

I am not familiar with the never sieze brand but have been told that graphite and copper type pastes can cause electrolysis on boat fittings if used inappropriately with other metals.

[Peter Malcolm Jardine]

I use never seize, but I'm in fresh water. The substitute I would suggest is good old fashioned dark red axle grease. It sticks to the thread well, and doesn't get easily displaced by anything.

I can't answer the electrolysis question, but I use NevrSeize on everything I take apart. There should be a law that manufacturers use it on assembly :mad: :D

[imported_Jimmy]

If you make your own leathers, how do you get them cup shapped? Or is the shape not important?

[Bob Smalser]

Leaving them oversize and torquing them down in assembly should do it. Soak in water overnight, first. Trim as required afterwards.

[imported_Jimmy]

I found a description of how to do it here:
http://www.lifewater.ca/Appendix_L.htm

[Bob Smalser]

Great link.

[Bob Cleek]

It looks to be a Wilcox Crittenden head. The leathers are a stock replacement item from Wilcox. I use Sta-lube on my leathers with no ill effects. It's what I had on hand. I put some down the head and take a few strokes when the head is going to sit for a while. This will keep the leathers supple... or so I imagine.

[maa. melee]

Never-Seize on a prop shaft to prop fit will seize in one season...learned from experience, I call the stuff 'ever-seize'.

[Old Bingey]

"Neverseize" comes in several different formulas but all are various kinds of metal flakes in some kind of grease. I guess the theory is that those flakes will separate the parts that might want to seize. The trouble with salt water use is the reaction of that metal with your metal. If your metal destroys the metal in the grease, it might swell up and seize. If the metal in the grease eats your metal it might seize. For outboard motors, I used to use Lubriplate white waterpump grease. Now I use this blue plastic looking stuff called "Tripleguard" which used to be made by OMC and I guess is Bombardier, now. It is truly waterproof and real hard to get off if you get any on you. It'll waterproof a trailer taillight bulb which is the true test.

[Canoeyawl]

I am a big fan of anti-seize compounds. As Bingey says they are available in many metal compounds. Mc-Master Carr has zinc, and lead, as well as copper and the common aluminum based stuff. If you use the aluminum stuff with copper alloys in a marine environment you will build a good battery…
A common type for use in marine applications is nickel based; Locktite has this.
Lead is the best for high heat applications (spark plugs, exhaust manifold bolts etc.)
There are also non-metal anti-seize compounds.

[imported_Jimmy]

OK, that is starting to make sense. Aluminum and bronze definately don't mix, I've seen evidence of that.

I finally found what I was looking for with reguard to graphite:

"Another concern is that graphite promotes electrolysis. Graphite has a very noble
potential of + 0.25V, which can lead to severe galvanic corrosion of copper alloys"

PS. Yes it is a Wilcox-Crittenden head, but it is so old that even Wilcox-Crittenden doesn't carry parts for it anymore. I suspect some parts from the newer models will work (such as cup leathers), but I think I will try making my own. I have already made some flapper valves and gaskets out of inner tube, which look like they will work, although they are a little thinner than the originals. Does anyone know where to get rubber that is thicker than inner tube? the stuff that is in there now is about 1/8" thick while most inner tube seems to be about half that.
I will dig out that graphite packing a plumbing store sold me and replace it with teflon or old fashioned talow and flax packing if I can find it. I will also either find the proper never-seize formulation for bronze or just use something like grease. Thanks

[ 12-21-2005, 11:48 AM: Message edited by: Jimmy ]

[pipefitter]

Here is a link to a manufacture I have gotten some odd sized leather cups for deep well ejectors. http://www.deanbennett.com/cylinder_cups.htm

These leathers will sometimes have a wax on them and paste wax is the best thing to put on them for break in. I have also used them in replacing leathers in old piston pumps. Bet they have the size you need or you can enlarge the center hole if needed and maybe even get them to send you a set without a center hole at all. Also,when installing cup leathers,after they are in place I soften them up by spreading them out after they are secured to facilitate swelling.

The antisieze I have used is nickel antisieze. I think it is compatible with stainless steel.

[ 12-21-2005, 12:02 PM: Message edited by: pipefitter ]

[imported_Jimmy]

I contacted "Wilcox-Crittenden" again to try to see if pump leathers for some of their other toilets might be the same size. Not only did they not know what size any of them were or wether they were interchangable, they didn't actually have any of the ones I was enquiring about.

The site pipefitter gave looks promising, thanks.

[JimConlin]

That looks like an earlier version of the Wilcox 'Winner' head. The bore of the Winner was 2-1/2" and if yours is also 2-1/2", the cup leathers should fit. The Wilcox number for the whole 'Winner' overhaul kit was 1523. I recollect that the kit included a parts list and that the parts of the kit were available individually. So, if you can talk with a human at Wilcox (800-521-3032 ) and ask them to look at the parts list or send you a copy, that's be a start.

[Canoeyawl]

My favorite bilge pump is the old Wilcox tube style pump. Most of the parts are brass and they do give up zinc and become weakened over time. I suspect that your head parts that are not castings (tubes, rods, etc) will also be brass. The Cu based anti-seize is probably ideal here. I would want to confirm that the Anti-seize compound was all Cu and not some “blend” before committing to it however…
Old Bingey has the safest idea, just use grease…
(“white” grease is often Lithium based and I have no idea where this metal is on the Galvanic chart!)

[imported_Jimmy]

I've had both e-mail and phone conversations with the Wilcox-Crittenden people and they weren't too helpful. I also contacted the people at the link pipefitter posted and although they have cup leathers that would probably work, they want $25 just to ship them, which is just silly. I'm going to just try the ones I have and if they don't work, I will try making some. Thanks for all the help.

[pipefitter]

25.00 isn't alot for how long they last though. Look in your yellow pages under pump/plumbing suppliers. A pump and well supplier will have these items in stock locally.
Home Depot may even have them in their irrigation dept.

[ 12-22-2005, 01:08 AM: Message edited by: pipefitter ]

[brian.cunningham]

What's the best way to work on one of those and not pick up a disease? I'm curious since I'll be working on some toilets in the house. Lot's of bleach?

[PeterSibley]

Theres a product available in Australia called Lanacote....its a lanolin grease...don't know if its available in the US.It is very good for softening hard leather, good also as a "never seize" in threads.Lots of boats use it in their galv.turnbuckles.

[Gary E]

Originally posted by brian.cunningham:
What's the best way to work on one of those and not pick up a disease? I'm curious since I'll be working on some toilets in the house. Lot's of bleach?Brian,
Long ago...40yrs or so...I used a hand cream called Protex..it protected aginst not only cast iron dust etc and solvents such as gas, MEK, and hydraulic oil. The dirt came off with a good scrubbing and you didnt look like you were playing in a coal bin.

The local auto expert that has a TV blurb does use rubber gloves that are heavy duty and sensitive enough to pick up small parts. I would ask a good auto mechanic or machinist what is used now.

[Dan Lindberg]

smile.gif
And here I thought this was about an ENGINE head and was wondering where leather was used in an engine. smile.gif

Don't know much about the other type of heads, but as for anti-seize, I used to use it on pipe threads in exhaust systems in a past life, but we had to be very careful to not overtighten the threads or they would never come apart.

In general I try not to use it, as it's messy and if it dries out, it's hard to get apart. If you use it, use it very sparingly.

Dan

[seo]

Water pump grease is good stuff. Doesn't make a horrible mess, easy to use, clean up. It's formulated to not break down in water (which Never Seize is not) and works fine for old-fashioned brass/bronze threaded parts (pretty sloppy threads.) Do not use it in assembling the Turbo-supercharger for your 5,000 hp MAN v-20 engine.
There is a company (whose name I don't know or can't find) that makes pump leathers for all those pitcher pumps and stuff. I dealt with them once years ago and they were easy to deal with. A company like Wilcox does not make their own leathers; they're a foundry and machining company.
You might try Seven Corners Hardware in St. Paul Minnesota. They're a big old-fashioned hardware store, and have drawers and drawers full of...stuff.
seo

[Old Bingey]

I ain't got time to dig out my periodic table but Lithium is way up there at the front kind of like Sodium and stuff. It is one of the least "dear" of the metals that can exist in elemental form. Nothing will sacrifice itself to Li. Maybe that's why it is in waterpump grease.

[Canoeyawl]

Thanks Bingey, I googled it (the chart!) and there it is right at the top! It must be pretty active in the wrong environment and need to be replenished often … Lithium batteries are hot stuff these days – LOL
A lot of the grease that is commercially available has metals in them. Zinc is a common one and Molybdenum also. I have had stray current issues using some of these greases on light bulb sockets, and use Vaseline these days. Most of the ingredients are proprietary and it is difficult to learn what’s in the grease. If it is a toxic element it will be listed in the MSDS report.

[Old Bingey]

I wasn't teasing about that blue plastic looking grease Evinrude dealers sell called "Tripleguard." It is some unusual stuff... absolutely waterproof. I have been running this antique outboard motor that will not maintain seals in the foot either on the input or output shaft (no room for a proper modern seal). I have been changing the foot grease every trip because it emulsifies with the water. I finally filled the foot with that blue stuff and now I can take the drain plug out and nothing will come out but clear water. I took the foot apart and that blue grease is just like new and completely separated from the water and the gears are fine. I have a spare foot so I am, as an experiment, just going to run the damned thing and not worry about the water in the gearcase.

[Old Bingey]

Forgot something.

I have made a lot of pump leathers for water pumps and stove pumps. The way I do it is to use chrome tanned (non greasy)leather and wet it with hot water and form it around something the right size and clamp it with a hose clamp until it dries. You can also wrap it with string but don't use tape because it slows down the drying. The cup will have a few shallow wrinkles in it but they will be pressed so tight that the leather will work fine. When you get ready to put the pump together, grease the leather with a mix of beeswax and petroleum grease (maybe "Tripleguard"). It helps to thin the edges of the cup a little bit with a sharp knife while it is still a disc. That'll make it seal better.

[Canoeyawl]

That blue grease sounds good, I’m too parsimonious to go out and buy something new just as an experiment, but on your word I’ll do it. It sounds like it will work in my old Seagull gear case … same problem no seals. (I have a lifetime supply of heavy steam cylinder oil (#400), but it does emulsify some of the water and I have to drain it to separate.
The pump leathers for the old Wilcox pumps I have made using an old Timken tapered bearing race as the die, with the leather bolted between a just right socket and a flat washer you can press the leather washer into it and it will form it into a perfect cup. Give it a while to overcome the memory, cut out the I.D. to the correct size and install. My old bilge pump will double as a tire pump now!

[seo]

Strangely enough for a guy from Maine, today I found myself in 7 corners hardware on W Seventh Street in St. Paul MN. They have pump leathers up to 2". Above that they have leathers that are shaped just like them that they say are made for caulking guns. 2.5", 3" in leather, other sizes in rubber and plastic.
If you're ever in St. Paul, this hardware store is a genuine trip for someone who can't stop blabbering about the good old hardware stores from the good old days.
seo

[westinghouse]

The Wilcox Crittendon leathers come in a rebuild kit that's about $100, IIRC. A new Par head is gonna be $150. Most folks are taking to the disposable head concept when it comes time to rebuild par/jabsco/itt heads, but not so much Wilcox/Crittendons. Payne's is closed next week, but you can call Judy at All Bay Marine Supply in Sidney the week after and she can hook you up. Shipping will be cheap or gratis. Or, if you like, call tomorrow and you'll get me - I can give you some idea of price and availability, then Judy can call you back with details later on. 10-4:30.

Might be nice to have a backup in case a shop-built model doesn't pan out...

cheers
Eli

[FSS172]

Does anyone know where to get rubber that is thicker than inner tube? the stuff that is in there now is about 1/8" thick while most inner tube seems to be about half that.

How about rubber membrane roofing? Or a tractor/truck inner tube?

[imported_Jimmy]

Sidney? I will be there for Christmas dinner.
I'm going to just try out the ones I have, I still think they will work OK. I put them in water after soaking them in mink oil and they swelled right up. I think once they are enclosed in the pump they won't dry out and shrink as quickly.

Thanks for the tip though, I will try to stop by later in the year (next time I am at the Boater's exchange)and look at the rebuild kit and see if it will work for my model. $ 100 is a little too much for me to get just in case. I have a working Jabsco head that I can install if I have problems with my Wilcox-Crittenden.

Merry Christmas

[westinghouse]

Right on about the swelling, I figured after living their life immersed and squished they don't swell up. Score, that. Hope Christmas was great (balmy around here, eh?)