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Paul Pless
02-06-2011, 10:26 AM
Chuck, recently you posted a quote from a Union officer describing the southern gentlemen officers' character and attributes, it went on to describe how they must all be killed. I can't find it now, could you repost it with some background of who said it and when?

Thanks.

oznabrag
02-06-2011, 10:32 AM
Sounds like Sherman.

paladin
02-06-2011, 10:37 AM
UH....is you referring to me....dunno remember it....

oznabrag
02-06-2011, 10:44 AM
This one? (http://www.plpow.com/Atrocities_QuotesFromSherman.htm)






The young bloods of the South; sons of planters, lawyers about towns, good billiard players and sportsmen, men who never did any work and never will. War suits them. They are splendid riders, first rate shots and utterly reckless. These men must all be killed or employed by us before we can hope for peace....Gen. William Tecumseh Sherman

Phillip Allen
02-06-2011, 10:47 AM
typical of the 1860's north...Sherman loved killing

Paul Pless
02-06-2011, 10:51 AM
Thank you Mr. Bean, that's the one.

oznabrag
02-06-2011, 10:59 AM
Thank you Mr. Bean, that's the one.


You're welcome, Mr. S*#$@##*

paladin
02-06-2011, 11:00 AM
as I said...Sherman, Lincoln and their ilk had no honor. They were all thieving, lying, murderers and deserved to be buried up to their necks in sand and a cup of raw honey poured over their heads, better yet, staked out over an anthill and the honey poured on their genitals. John Wilkes Booth had the right idea.

Phillip Allen
02-06-2011, 11:07 AM
You're welcome, Mr. S*#$@##*

Alright...one of you will have to sit in the other's lap for a while now

leikec
02-06-2011, 01:24 PM
as I said...Sherman, Lincoln and their ilk had no honor. They were all thieving, lying, murderers and deserved to be buried up to their necks in sand and a cup of raw honey poured over their heads, better yet, staked out over an anthill and the honey poured on their genitals. John Wilkes Booth had the right idea.




Okey-dokey....

Jeff C

bobbys
02-06-2011, 01:48 PM
as I said...Sherman, Lincoln and their ilk had no honor. They were all thieving, lying, murderers and deserved to be buried up to their necks in sand and a cup of raw honey poured over their heads, better yet, staked out over an anthill and the honey poured on their genitals. John Wilkes Booth had the right idea..

Killing the President?.

Yikes!

SamSam
02-06-2011, 02:01 PM
How does it go...**** with the bull, you get the horn?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Tecumseh_ShermanOn hearing of South Carolina (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Carolina)'s secession (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordinance_of_Secession) from the United States, Sherman observed to a close friend, Professor David F. Boyd (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_French_Boyd) of Virginia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginia), an enthusiastic secessionist, almost perfectly describing the four years of war to come:
You people of the South don't know what you are doing. This country will be drenched in blood, and God only knows how it will end. It is all folly, madness, a crime against civilization! You people speak so lightly of war; you don't know what you're talking about. War is a terrible thing! You mistake, too, the people of the North. They are a peaceable people but an earnest people, and they will fight, too. They are not going to let this country be destroyed without a mighty effort to save it... Besides, where are your men and appliances of war to contend against them? The North can make a steam engine, locomotive, or railway car; hardly a yard of cloth or pair of shoes can you make. You are rushing into war with one of the most powerful, ingeniously mechanical, and determined people on Earth—right at your doors. You are bound to fail. Only in your spirit and determination are you prepared for war. In all else you are totally unprepared, with a bad cause to start with. At first you will make headway, but as your limited resources begin to fail, shut out from the markets of Europe as you will be, your cause will begin to wane. If your people will but stop and think, they must see in the end that you will surely fail.[28] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Tecumseh_Sherman#cite_note-27)
I always heard he did it to stop a senseless war that was carrying on to the point of absurdity.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Tecumseh_Sherman#Civil_War_service

Phillip Allen
02-06-2011, 02:04 PM
.

Killing the President?.

Yikes!

I've always thought that the killing of Lincoln did a major disservice to the South by allowing Stanton to commit his war crimes un abated

oznabrag
02-06-2011, 02:21 PM
Alright...one of you will have to sit in the other's lap for a while now


Oznabrag is to http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS0QVvc4TdJVtZXcTcJg9Mt-PLbpMbwdZPT_tnTE58WZ45IGnfi as


http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQsz3Rss2Unug-QHY6lD_bLT59_UoJNhBa11UTqOENxKmydPFiT5A is to http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTcXtU7cNsgql64CmPOkDkC6AuYKjtRP rqE_-EEoA9D7YqNVRpo

B_B
02-06-2011, 02:25 PM
You people speak so lightly of war; you don't know what you're talking about.
some folks haven't learned a damned thing

paladin
02-06-2011, 02:52 PM
Not advocate killing a President.....

Executing war criminals....exactly what the U.S. did at Nuremburg but exempt themselves from the same rules....starting with the lead general in the revolutionary war.....what he did for clearing the war debt and enriching his own pockets.

bobbys
02-06-2011, 03:13 PM
Not advocate killing a President.....

Executing war criminals....exactly what the U.S. did at Nuremburg but exempt themselves from the same rules....starting with the lead general in the revolutionary war.....what he did for clearing the war debt and enriching his own pockets..

I must have missed the Trial John wilkes booth presided over before he carried out his sentence.

George Jung
02-06-2011, 03:26 PM
I guess we can count Chucks vote as a 'maybe no' on the question of

'Was Lincoln our greatest President?'

What's the story, Chuck? Spill Mr. Bean.

paladin
02-06-2011, 03:29 PM
Dig a bit, bobbys and read your history. Washington had a ton of war debt, personally, and for the paying of his troops. He had presided over a treaty with Native Americans, and after the war used the army to chase them off their lands at gunpoint and murder. Then used the land to pay federal debt and enrich himself by paying off his debt.
Jackson did the same.
Lincoln, as soon as the war was over and armistice was signed, cancelled treaties with the very people that assisted him, and his predecessors had signed less than 4 decades before.
The Great White Chief has consistently used treaties as a delaying action and then used the army to murder, rape and pillage.

Harbormaster
02-06-2011, 03:39 PM
That's what's so great about the study of history, if we ignore the myths, we can find that even our heroes were no better than we are today. Or alternately that we are no better than they were. Humans stay humans - as individuals we don't really change. All that we can hope for is that we create institutions that get better with the accrual of knowledge and experience.

Of course Washington, Lincoln et. al., were in it for often personal reasons, but through some miracle, the institutions that they helped to create can occasionally rise above our human failings.

And to excoriate Sherman and Lincoln without doing the same for the confederates is historically naive.

Remember Andersonville? "During the war, 45,000 prisoners were received at Andersonville prison, and of these 12,913 died." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andersonville_National_Historic_Site#cite_note-8)

"This a picture of one of the survivors of Andersonville Prison. Union Army soldier on his release from Andersonville in May, 1865."

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5a/Andersonvillesurvivor.jpg/225px-Andersonvillesurvivor.jpg

S.V. Airlie
02-06-2011, 03:41 PM
Chuck..I've been thinking about this..trying to figure out what president did not kill someone either before being president and as President..I came up with van Buren as one and maybe Harding and Coolidge..overall, not much of a list...

Do we blame Wurtz?

paladin
02-06-2011, 03:46 PM
Not to exempt the Confederacy from such things.......but it was Sherman that started that with the execution of prisoners because he didn't want them to slow him down. It was also an agreement between Sherman and Lincoln to wage war on women and children and a scorched earth policy. Even care packages sent to Confederate soldiers/prisoners were confiscated by the Union and the sender often imprisoned or worse.
The white man introduced the white flag of truth as a point of trust....read what happened at Wounded Knee. I can give you plenty of stuff to read, written by Native Americans that were there. The White man has/had no honor.

oznabrag
02-06-2011, 03:47 PM
Well, if the Yankees hadn't stopped the prisoner exchange that poor feller would have been up North eating his fill.

There were a great number of Confederate soldiers who didn't look a whole lot better, by the end.

The Confederates didn't have a whole lot to eat, themselves. They were in the habit of forming a detail to pick corn out of horse poop, before it was all done.

The Yankees, on the other hand, with plenty to eat, managed to starve and freeze a considerable number of prisoners at Elmira, NY.

Painting the Confederates as some sort of monsters on the basis of Andersonville is the act of someone either ignorant or malicious. Or both.

S.V. Airlie
02-06-2011, 03:48 PM
Grant also did not want to parole union troops and Con troops as it was a war of attrition..The blame is the size of a bloody blanket

oznabrag
02-06-2011, 03:57 PM
Grant also did not want to parole union troops and Con troops as it was a war of attrition..The blame is the size of a bloody blanket

Yes.

paladin
02-06-2011, 03:58 PM
Let me pose a question...
We have a man, a Pastor at his church, a wife and two children, the very pillar of his community for over 30 years. He has 3 deacons in the church, men who live for it. One member of the church becomes disallusioned with his Pastor and friends over differences, real or perceived. The Disallusioned one decides to leave and start his own church, The first Pastor doesn't want him to leave and sends his deacons after him....
The deacons murder and rape the followers of the second pastor. They rob everyone in their path, the order to bring back the first pastor.
Is the first Pastor going to be judged by the 30 years of service, or for aiding and abetting the rape and murder of thousands, alongside his deacons. The white man has always made war on women and children, and then wrote the history books villifying the losing side. Who is standing in judgement of those that make war for the reason of war itself, and lie to sustain those wars?

S.V. Airlie
02-06-2011, 04:00 PM
Chuck..I'm not disagreeing with you at all.

Phillip Allen
02-06-2011, 04:27 PM
I have railed about this sort of stuff for years and years...some of it on this forum and I distinctly remember being denigrated by many here for doing so...what would they do if I looked up those posts and confronted them at this point in this thread...I expect I would be yelled at again in the midst of yet more spin...I won't do it...I refuse to be the supplicant

paladin
02-06-2011, 04:31 PM
From the 1927 Grand Council of American Indians

"The white people, who are trying to make us over into their image, they want us to be what they call "assimilated," bringing the Indians into the mainstream and destroying our own way of life and our own cultural patterns. They believe we should be contented like those whose concept of happiness is materialistic and greedy, which is very different from our way.
We want freedom from the white man rather than to be intergrated. We don't want any part of the establishment, we want to be free to raise our children in our religion, in our ways, to be able to hunt and fish and live in peace. We don't want power, we don't want to be congressmen, or bankers....we want to be ourselves. We want to have our heritage, because we are the owners of this land and because we belong here.

The white man says, there is freedom and justice for all. We have had "freedom and justice," and that is why we have been almost exterminated. We shall not forget this."

"When we Indians kill meat, we eat it all up. When we dig roots, we make little holes. When we build houses, we make little holes. When we burn grass for grasshoppers, we don't ruin things. We shake down acorns and pine nuts. We don't chop down the trees. We only use dead wood. But the white people plow up the ground, pull down the trees, kill everything. ... the White people pay no attention. ...How can the spirit of the earth like the White man? ... everywhere the White man has touched it, it is sore."



How smooth must be the language of the whites, when they can make right look like wrong, and wrong like right."

"If the white man wants to live in peace with the Indian, he can live in peace.....Treat all men alike. Give them all the same law. Give them all an even chance to live and grow. All men were made by the same Great Spirit Chief. They are all brothers. The Earth is the mother of all people, and all people should have equal rights upon it.......Let me be a free man, free to travel, free to stop, free to work, free to trade....where I choose my own teachers, free to follow the religion of my fathers, free to think and talk and act for myself, and I will obey every law, or submit to the penalty."

KM Bever
02-06-2011, 05:25 PM
That's what's so great about the study of history, if we ignore the myths, we can find that even our heroes were no better than we are today. Or alternately that we are no better than they were. Humans stay humans - as individuals we don't really change. All that we can hope for is that we create institutions that get better with the accrual of knowledge and experience.

Of course Washington, Lincoln et. al., were in it for often personal reasons, but through some miracle, the institutions that they helped to create can occasionally rise above our human failings.

And to excoriate Sherman and Lincoln without doing the same for the confederates is historically naive.

Remember Andersonville? "During the war, 45,000 prisoners were received at Andersonville prison, and of these 12,913 died." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andersonville_National_Historic_Site#cite_note-8)

"This a picture of one of the survivors of Andersonville Prison. Union Army soldier on his release from Andersonville in May, 1865."

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5a/Andersonvillesurvivor.jpg/225px-Andersonvillesurvivor.jpg

Don't forget the Union prison near Chicago. I believe in prior wars most prisoners were traded or parole given.

S.V. Airlie
02-06-2011, 05:29 PM
The Civil War was in man ways the first modern war..Look at all the Europeans who came over to observe tactics..Attrition..not paroling troops was one I'll say different approach

KM Bever
02-06-2011, 05:56 PM
The Civil War was in man ways the first modern war..Look at all the Europeans who came over to observe tactics..Attrition..not paroling troops was one I'll say different approach

Plus the new technologies.

S.V. Airlie
02-06-2011, 05:58 PM
Plus the new technologies. yup use of railroads and troop movements..telegraph in wide use etc..KM you are correct..I just did not go into details

oznabrag
02-06-2011, 05:59 PM
Plus the new technologies.

Yep. Repeating rifles (in limited places), revolvers, advances in rifled field guns and trench warfare, for a few.

paladin
02-06-2011, 07:38 PM
The last Confederate General to surrender, and a distant family member did not have repeating rifles or field pieces. Yet, he won every battle and engagement with Union troops, most of the time outnumbered and outgunned. For this, after the war, Lincoln confiscated all his and family/relatives lands. Lincoln was an opportunist. They made a big show in Washington, D.C. with people like Robert E. Lee and others, full uniform dress, of graciously accepting the surrender, all the while sending troops to kill, maim, plunder and rape those that sided with the Confederacy., and I heard much of this directly from a living family member as a pre teen.

leikec
02-06-2011, 07:51 PM
The last Confederate General to surrender, and a distant family member did not have repeating rifles or field pieces. Yet, he won every battle and engagement with Union troops, most of the time outnumbered and outgunned. For this, after the war, Lincoln confiscated all his and family/relatives lands. Lincoln was an opportunist.

They made a big show in Washington, D.C. with people like Robert E. Lee and others, full uniform dress, of graciously accepting the surrender, all the while sending troops to kill, maim, plunder and rape those that sided with the Confederacy., and I heard much of this directly from a living family member as a pre teen.



Lincoln survived the "official" end of the civil war (regarded by historians to be Lee's surrender at Appomattox Court House on April 9, 1865) by six days, dying from his gunshot wound on April 15, 1865.

Richard Taylor didn't surrender his Confederate command and officially demobilize his army until May 8, 1865.


Jeff C

paladin
02-06-2011, 07:59 PM
My great great (another great, I think) uncle surrendered June 23, 1865 as a Brigadier General. Over protests, because as far as he was concerned the Confederacy was winning. It took a lotta time to get word out west in those days before telegraph was commonplace everywhere.

S.V. Airlie
02-06-2011, 08:01 PM
One of theJohnston's surrendered last I think (Albert)..One was killed..Don't off hand remember which one.No relation

SMARTINSEN
02-06-2011, 08:14 PM
One of theJohnston's surrendered last I think (Albert)..One was killed..Don't off hand remember which one.No relation
Albert Sydney died at Shiloh.

The NYT is running a series called Disunion, it is a day by day running commentary, following the war as it unfolded.
http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/02/05/the-strange-victory-of-the-palmetto-state/

oznabrag
02-06-2011, 08:15 PM
The last Confederate General to surrender, and a distant family member did not have repeating rifles or field pieces. Yet, he won every battle and engagement with Union troops, most of the time outnumbered and outgunned. For this, after the war, Lincoln confiscated all his and family/relatives lands. Lincoln was an opportunist. They made a big show in Washington, D.C. with people like Robert E. Lee and others, full uniform dress, of graciously accepting the surrender, all the while sending troops to kill, maim, plunder and rape those that sided with the Confederacy., and I heard much of this directly from a living family member as a pre teen.

My Great-grandfather, Berry Benson, never did surrender, and that's a stone fact.

ishmael
02-06-2011, 08:19 PM
This is a constant theme in the American psyche.

Sherman, from what I've read, was no ravening brute. What he did to subdue the South hurt him deeply, yet he saw it as the way to win the war and get on with what was next as quickly as possible. He was correct.

He was a school teacher before the war, a learned and erudite man.

It's interesting how much he's still reviled by some, but he did what he saw needed doing to bring the South to it's knees.

"War is all hell." As near as I can figure he neither relished it, nor shirked it.

oznabrag
02-06-2011, 08:24 PM
Ish, I think you got Sherman right except the 'hurt him deeply' part. I have not studied him in any depth, but my take is that he was like a medical professional, in that regard.

Sherman was one hell of a soldier.

paladin
02-06-2011, 08:31 PM
Perhaps the war would have ended differently if the Confederacy adopted the same rules of slaughtering every man, woman and child on the way to Wash. D.C., but they considered it repugnant and dishonorable. But then, we wouldn't be having this conversation if they had just burned the boats and the Spanish/Portagee sailors that landed on the islands, and the thieves that came later.

oznabrag
02-06-2011, 08:38 PM
Perhaps the war would have ended differently if the Confederacy adopted the same rules of slaughtering every man, woman and child on the way to Wash. D.C., but they considered it repugnant and dishonorable. ...

Nah.

The best chance the South had at winning the Civil War was First Bull Run.

They whipped the Yankees roundly and well and shooed them back over the border. Then they stopped. If they'd just chased them right on into D.C. they would have captured the President, the Seat of Government, and the great majority of both houses of Congress.

ishmael
02-06-2011, 08:50 PM
Wait a minute. Slaughtering every man woman and child? What twisted history did you get that from, Chuck?

Landrith
02-06-2011, 09:19 PM
Chuck, watched Russell Means interview. A wealth of great information-Welcome to the Reservation http://www.youtube.com:80/watch?v=-LA-S64QY3o&feature=player_embedded

I liked the Canadian Historian on Total War. Sherman was one of the first to see it. I think like a Chechen. I will fight an invader in the streets of my neighborhood for a few weeks, then I will be in their capitol. The US in WWII wasn't bombing ball bearing plants as much as it was killing factory workers.

paladin
02-06-2011, 09:26 PM
The march thru virginia burning barns, homes, fields, killing farm animals raping women, killing old men, women and children for 200 miles. I would gladly support folks like Quantrell or John Singlton Mosby, we need more like that.

ishmael
02-06-2011, 10:03 PM
Chuck, you are simply wrong. Sherman skirted the fighting in Virginia and fought mostly in Georgia and the Carolinas. His aim was to cut the supply.

Was it brutal, were there horrible things his men did? No question. They did burn a swath through the heart of the South, and I'm sure there were atrocities such as rape. But to paint it the way you do is unbalanced, and wrong.

What fearful things we humans do.

Landrith
02-06-2011, 10:13 PM
Quantrell was a 'total war" guy. Look at Baxter Springs an early surprise meeting engagement and Lawrence. But then again Quantrell was killing farmers before the war even started. My ancestor John Hunt Morgan was an old school chivalry guy and look at where it got him. Gunned down in his pajamas when ratted out to the Union by his mistress.

paladin
02-06-2011, 10:16 PM
and so everything that Sherman did was right, using your logic.

Landrith
02-06-2011, 10:30 PM
I think even Gen. Robert E. Lee did Pickett's Charge to make the South give up its unrealistic enthusiasm for continuing the war (a Landrith survived). I am not a Sherman fan. I have just fallen for the idea that the American Civil War was the first industrial war. And, the nature of industrializing war is that the machines start killing civilian populations and "honor" starts to disappear. Means in the interview talks about his tribe winning against the US Army and dictating the terms of the peace. The USA then destroys the ability of the plains Indian to feed themselves ( a mechanized buffalo kill off) and they are conquered with starvation.

KM Bever
02-06-2011, 11:17 PM
Quantrell was a 'total war" guy. Look at Baxter Springs an early surprise meeting engagement and Lawrence. But then again Quantrell was killing farmers before the war even started. My ancestor John Hunt Morgan was an old school chivalry guy and look at where it got him. Gunned down in his pajamas when ratted out to the Union by his mistress.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/15/John_Brown_Painting.JPG

Bleeding Kansas, My great grand mother told me stories told to her from war survivors who rode with Brown. About the raids by the pro-slavery and the abolitionist's. The stories were not for the fainthearted. Both sides did "total War". I had ancestors that rode with John Brown. She never several of his qoutes. This is the one that stuck with me,

"If it is deemed necessary that I should forfeit my life for the furtherance of the ends of justice, and mingle my blood further with the blood of my children and with the blood of millions in this slave country whose rights are disregarded by wicked, cruel, and unjust enactments-I submit; so let it be done."

So many of the "players" intersected during the war, Lee captured Brown, Brown's hanging witnessed by Booth. Brown's death seen by some as he first death of the civil war, because everyone knew his name. Lincoln killed by Booth and Booth hen killed. These two deaths seen as the last ones of the civil war.

Gerarddm
02-06-2011, 11:27 PM
Well, I couldn't disagree with Paladin's first quote more. I shall leave it at that.

Phillip Allen
02-06-2011, 11:31 PM
Well, I couldn't disagree with Paladin's first quote more. I shall leave it at that.

guilty by association and defensive as a result...

S.V. Airlie
02-07-2011, 08:10 AM
Albert Sydney died at Shiloh.

The NYT is running a series called Disunion, it is a day by day running commentary, following the war as it unfolded.
http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/02/05/the-strange-victory-of-the-palmetto-state/

I knew it was one or the other..Figured I remember the one who was killed

S.V. Airlie
02-07-2011, 08:29 AM
The objective of any army is to win the war as best as he can.."War is Hell." If Sherman had not gone through GA..the war more than likely would have lasted two more years..granted a guess..but by ending say two years earlier, more lives were saved than were lost...As far as killing women and children and old men..sure it happened..I do not think it was Sherman's intention..He had an army of "X" number of troops..Troops do not necessarily obey the commander. Think of a modern day mob

ishmael
02-07-2011, 09:04 AM
and so everything that Sherman did was right, using your logic.

No, I'm not saying everything done under his command was right.

I have a book around here somewhere that details what Sherman's army(swelled to maybe 120,000?) did on their march. Some of it is ugly beyond most of our understandings.

Was there awful stuff that happened? When you've got an army that large it will happen. Does it ultimately reflect on the commander? I suppose it does, but the commander in the field doesn't have command of the individual unit soldier. You, as someone with experience of such matters, knows that better than I. It was some pretty horrible stuff.

Yet I do maintain, as Jamie said, that this action did stop the further madness of that fratricidal conflict. I don't revel in it one iota. I weep when I read about it.

oznabrag
02-07-2011, 10:02 AM
...

I liked the Canadian Historian on Total War. Sherman was one of the first to see it...

The US is terribly lucky that NB Forrest was such a cantankerous, impolitic SOB that he was never in a position to wage 'total war'.

He was the only Confederate general that Sherman was wary of. I wanted to say 'afraid of' but...

paladin
02-07-2011, 11:03 AM
Chuck, you are simply wrong. Sherman skirted the fighting in Virginia and fought mostly in Georgia and the Carolinas. His aim was to cut the supply.


Jack...you really need to get out more.......

Kit Dalton (Youngers/James/Daltons) Rode with Nathan Bedford Forest and survived to 1930.
According to stories told me by my grandfather, Frank James visited his house a couple of times before he died, and stayed with him and his new Bride overnight. Granddad didn't impart any details (I was early teens) but they discussed everything from the early days of the War of Northrun Aggression to horse racing, which is why Mr. James was at his house in the first place. He was the judge presiding over local horse races. In addition, other family members told stories of the Union Army raiding farms in the area, people not involved directly in the war, but they were just burning and looting. Helluva lotta Union soldiers buried along the river banks of Webbers Falls Oklahoma. Hazel (grandads wife after gramma died) was full blood Cherokee, and the union soldiers would raid the Cherokee camps and shoot women and children until they killed enough Union soldiers to arm themselves. Then Stand Watie captured one of the Unions largest supply trains (Wagon trains) and that pretty much supplied the Cherokee with arms and ammo until the end of the war.

S.V. Airlie
02-07-2011, 11:21 AM
I thopught the Jesse James myth was well debunked..Lots on that stuff including a questionable photo oat a reunion and a supposed signature...

paladin
02-07-2011, 11:33 AM
Dunno what part you are talking about being debunked, I referred to Kit Dalton and he wasn't the only one in the family that rode with those guys.

S.V. Airlie
02-07-2011, 11:35 AM
I was referring to Jesse and Frank..Chuck...

paladin
02-07-2011, 11:53 AM
Dunno about Jesse.....Frank rode with Quantrell. I was really never into the Jesse James/Dalton/Youngers gang as far as all their "Western Exploits" except movies or whatever which never seemed to be accurate.

I don't think there's any evidence that Jesse James ever rode with Quantrell, as he was about 16 at the time. The last of Jesse's direct line, a granddaughter(Ethelrose), died in 1991 at age 84. She had Jesse's boots, clothes, wallet and gun/gunbelt and Winchester in a trunk in her mobile home. She donated them to the James Museum in Missouri before she died.

Paul Pless
02-07-2011, 12:19 PM
The westerns were especially entertaining..a dozen different fictionalizations of the same Jesse James event.I loved the Beauchamp character in The Unforgiven.

http://www.wearysloth.com/Gallery/ActorsR/15068-20367.gif

S.V. Airlie
02-07-2011, 12:20 PM
Jesse supposedly rode with Quatrill as a young man..He was supposedly killed by Ford..but actually wasn't..well debatable. He supposedly attended a Quantrill reunion..photo and autograph... He supposedly is not buried where he is said to be buried..He supposedly lived into the 1930's I think in TX.
Lots of dime novels abound..Donn is right but they are or must be hard to find.

paladin
02-07-2011, 12:36 PM
There is a James DNA fund. Jesse's body was exhumed and DNA material taken and it definitely was Jesse. The family is quite extensive with members living in Canada. It's not difficult to trace the family tree if you have a lot of interest. Jesse was a black mark on the family as a whole and not many spoke of it. Frank was never convicted of anything...
Nope, he died right where Ford said he was shot. He didn't have a lot of money, leaving his widow about $250 at the time, 2 teenage children (Twins died at birth) and a rough life because of who she was. She never sold anything of Jesse's to make money, passing all to children and grandchildren.
Stop reading the dime store novels and do some research. The internet makes it easy these days.

S.V. Airlie
02-07-2011, 12:41 PM
Both sides have their advocates and detractors..Both make sense many have..umm proof...I'm not sure which side to believe

The549
02-07-2011, 01:17 PM
i also wish the south would have won the war they started (for good reason, too), i think that every day. i also never understood why the north wouldn't fight fair as well. it's almost like they wanted to end the war as quickly as possible.

as for treatment of native americans...we have many cases still open in court. it's a given that you don't find justice but rather the opposite studying the many histories of native tribes...i'm not sure if california was unique in actually having state policies of extermination. i also like how quickly american sentiment turned from extermination of savages to idealized and majestic awe.

S.V. Airlie
02-07-2011, 02:14 PM
Fight Fair?What do you mean fight fair..Was the
Union general suppose to send him a note telling Lee that he was going to give Lee a few hours in the AM but he was gonna attack with X troops at 10Am? This makes no sense.

paladin
02-07-2011, 04:19 PM
Jamie......wanton rape and murder of women and children. And in the end, the "liberated slaves", for the most part, found themselves in worse conditions than before. Re construction was an excuse for carpetbaggers to steal everything in sight.

S.V. Airlie
02-07-2011, 04:29 PM
Jamie......wanton rape and murder of women and children. And in the end, the "liberated slaves", for the most part, found themselves in worse conditions than before. Re construction was an excuse for carpetbaggers to steal everything in sight.


It was war Chuck no matter what you say..if there was wanton meyhem, murder and killing it was on both sides...Could not be helped.. I had relatives in the south and the north..nothing but the locations changed

paladin
02-07-2011, 05:21 PM
gerarddm.....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sherman's_March_to_the_Sea

KM Bever
02-07-2011, 08:46 PM
Jack...you really need to get out more.......

Kit Dalton (Youngers/James/Daltons) Rode with Nathan Bedford Forest and survived to 1930.
According to stories told me by my grandfather, Frank James visited his house a couple of times before he died, and stayed with him and his new Bride overnight. Granddad didn't impart any details (I was early teens) but they discussed everything from the early days of the War of Northrun Aggression to horse racing, which is why Mr. James was at his house in the first place. He was the judge presiding over local horse races. In addition, other family members told stories of the Union Army raiding farms in the area, people not involved directly in the war, but they were just burning and looting. Helluva lotta Union soldiers buried along the river banks of Webbers Falls Oklahoma. Hazel (grandads wife after gramma died) was full blood Cherokee, and the union soldiers would raid the Cherokee camps and shoot women and children until they killed enough Union soldiers to arm themselves. Then Stand Watie captured one of the Unions largest supply trains (Wagon trains) and that pretty much supplied the Cherokee with arms and ammo until the end of the war.


I'm not sure how "Senior Senior Member" you are, but I hope somebody has gotten some of your stories down on paper or CD. If not the world will be at a great loss. We've already lost to much of our history by neglect.

paladin
02-07-2011, 09:30 PM
Sorry to say....I was wondering if I wuz gonna make it to Christmas this year. I think there's enough stuff on this forum to write a book if someone were so inclined.....I ain't got the energy.

Phillip Allen
02-07-2011, 10:11 PM
Chuck Philips...the "unauthorized" biography...I kain't wait

Landrith
02-07-2011, 11:46 PM
In my undergraduate days, taking a decade in off shift classes to complete a History degree, I ended up thinking that black slavery was replaced with a more ruthless form of capitalist exploitation. The South's captured Naval stores manufacturing facility did some studies proving Irish with some education and no maintenance and feeding overhead were more cost effective than slaves who were often secured interests to banks and had to be maintained even when there was no work. Irish were disposable.

oznabrag
02-08-2011, 08:37 AM
Sorry to say....I was wondering if I wuz gonna make it to Christmas this year. I think there's enough stuff on this forum to write a book if someone were so inclined.....I ain't got the energy.

We'all was awonderin' too, Mr. P.

I'm glad you made Christmas, and I've got a feeling that you've passed the crisis, so you could be an ornery ol' goat for some time, around here.

Salud!

oznabrag
02-08-2011, 08:38 AM
In my undergraduate days, taking a decade in off shift classes to complete a History degree, I ended up thinking that black slavery was replaced with a more ruthless form of capitalist exploitation. The South's captured Naval stores manufacturing facility did some studies proving Irish with some education and no maintenance and feeding overhead were more cost effective than slaves who were often secured interests to banks and had to be maintained even when there was no work. Irish were disposable.

I think you nailed it, Landrith.

S.V. Airlie
02-08-2011, 09:12 AM
Chuck I got an idea..transcribe your memoirs to tape or the equiv..Easy to do ..not have to write so much..And you could give the tapes to someone else to put on paper
I have a friend who did this for an old White Army Cossack who lived through the Russian Rev in 1917-1918 roughly

pefjr
02-08-2011, 09:46 AM
Interesting thread. I see some that have escaped from the censors of the Texas School Board and the movies of Hollywood. Our History ain't so pretty as it's presented in the school's books. Reminds me of the first spoken words of my college World History 101 teacher, "Today we start unlearning what you have learned in high school." We looked at each like he was crazy and then he began to teach genuine World History.

ishmael
02-08-2011, 10:36 AM
Just one other note about Sherman, a quote for the political storybooks. He was under a lot of pressure from the New York polls to run for president. "If nominated I will not run. If elected I will not serve."

UCanoe_2
02-09-2011, 09:56 PM
This thread needs a bit of levity. Here's my favorite quote from the War of Yankee Aggression:

"General Lee, if you will do the praying for the Army of Northern Virginia, I'll be damned if I will not do the swearing!"

-- Brig. Gen. Henry A. Wise, CSA (my 4th cousin 4 times removed)

Michael D. Storey
02-09-2011, 10:09 PM
typical of the 1860's north...Sherman loved killing
Never thought of Wm Yes Ma'am Sherman, known to have said 'War is Hell' as a man who loved killing. Did his share, but was driven by duty rather than blood lust.

oznabrag
02-09-2011, 10:19 PM
Never thought of Wm Yes Ma'am Sherman, known to have said 'War is Hell' as a man who loved killing. Did his share, but was driven by duty rather than blood lust.

I rather think that Sherman disliked killing, yet saw it as necessary and inevitable, so he made it a point to be as efficient as possible, thus limiting the amount necessary.

Sherman was to the South what the Atom Bomb was to the Japanese.

Sherman was a helluva soldier.

S B
02-09-2011, 10:58 PM
Read this out of curiosity, from an outside perspective, looks like the war is still on.

paladin
02-09-2011, 11:04 PM
Absolutely....damn yankees gotta stand for war crimes for all infractions committed during the War of Northrun Aggression:, just like at Nuremburg. The general told me to do it is not a legal excuse. We is gonna hang all those responsible, starting with Grant, Sherman, and Lincoln...and a few others.

bobbys
02-09-2011, 11:13 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MOvJVtLLXYU

ishmael
02-09-2011, 11:42 PM
I wish I had a quotable moment when the Twentieth Maine stood it's ground at Little Round Top. I don't. I sense there were no words to spare. When Joshua ordered his charge I wasn't there.

paladin
02-12-2011, 01:07 AM
By the time the war was declared over, it was both relief and lack of belief. The first thing that happened was the damned Yankees sent their troops in to start assessing taxes for reconstruction. Families lost homes that they had for 3-4 generations due to land speculators. Blacks were unemployed. Were offerred salaries for the same work as before without the benefits that they had. My aunt and uncle cared for a lady that had no where else to go, she was freed, and had a daughter and the daughter worked for gramma from the 1920's to the mid 1950's. Her mother was near 100 and passed away with great grandmother, within a year. They were taken care of as best the folks could.