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View Full Version : Question for you ship drver guys?



Paul Girouard
02-04-2011, 09:53 PM
Tonight on my way home when I was crossing Deception Pass bridge ,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Deceptionpass_bridge2.jpg

the pass on the left in that linked photo. I watched a large I'd guess 200 foot plus Coast Guard "work" boat , maybe a buoy tender?? It wasn't any of the local cutters and it had a crane a-mid ships , any way he was hauling arse going out / west , maybe 15 20 knots , slower than smaller speed boats go thru , but faster than any fishing boat or larger pleasure craft go out at. And the speed is a wild guess.

The tide was pretty high , so it was either high changing to out going , or 'slack' tide at the high.

The water wasn't boiling like it some times is , so also a guess on high or slack tide.

I just was wondering why he'd / the Skipper would select that tide to go out on?

I'd think a out going or low slack would be better??

I didn't have time to park and run back to take a photo , that's how fast he was moving for those familiar with the area that will make sense.


Pictures would have been cool though!

Mad Scientist
02-04-2011, 10:32 PM
From your description, almost certainly a buoy tender.

As for the speed, perhaps the USCG has a policy about repairing/replacing key navigational aids ASAP? Just a wild guess, based on my (limited) knowledge of the amount of traffic in the Strait of Juan de Fuca/Puget Sound/Vancouver region.

Tom

JBreeze
02-04-2011, 10:45 PM
http://www.uscg.mil/d13/cgcFir/img/FIR-04.jpg

The Fir? Based in Astoria...

http://www.uscg.mil/datasheet/225wlb.asp

Paul Girouard
02-04-2011, 11:02 PM
I'd say that was her J . What her LOA? Did you look? Guess I will. Thanks.

I'm not ship driver, I was hoping Lew would chime in , maybe ACB, others.

Paul Girouard
02-04-2011, 11:10 PM
I was close 225' LOA. Big for the Pass , at least not normal for a ship that large to go thru.

I've seen Indian fishing boats 75 , 80 feet run the pass. In fact I've watched a few get turned back by the line they took going 'in' / east , against a out going flood tide. Slowed to a stop and they cut back the motors and rolled out to try a different 'line'.

Tugs hauling log booms go thru on the tail end of a out going tide from what I've noticed over the years. They'll stand off , generally I see them inside headed out , then they run the out going end of the tide . Or if headed 'in' they ride the end of the in going tide.

What was odd was the time of day , 1730 or so and the high tide to go out. Free board wouldn't be a issue as the pass is pretty deep and cut straight down pretty much off the rocks. Couple of hundred feet IIRC. Seems like what I've heard any way. Guess I should look that up as well.

JBreeze
02-04-2011, 11:13 PM
225'

The black hulled boats are usually the "workboats" and supposedly are on a tight schedule, according to one USCG CWO I knew. He claimed they had only 45 minutes to lift a buoy, scrape it, apply epoxy paint and get it back into the water.

I had some dealings with the CG in the Northeast, and the ATON (aids to navigation) folks were the best of the CG. We had a problem with the angle of a navigation light on a tower, and by the time I reported the problem, the ATON folks had already corrected it, rather than getting into the usual pissing contest about who caused the problem.

I liked the ATON folks much more than the ring knocker careerists:d

BarnacleGrim
02-04-2011, 11:17 PM
http://www.charts.noaa.gov/OnLineViewer/18427.shtml

Is there something in particular about Deception pass that makes passage at high water unfavourable?

Paul Girouard
02-04-2011, 11:32 PM
http://www.charts.noaa.gov/OnLineViewer/18427.shtml

Is there something in particular about Deception pass that makes passage at high water unfavourable?


It's a small passage and a lot of water move thru , big whirl pools / eddies , etc. Sail boats have been flipped over sideways by the eddies and such. Much smaller vessels , but still a 40 or 50 foot boat being flipped over is pretty impressive.

For that size ship it's a pretty small passage.

TimH
02-04-2011, 11:45 PM
http://www.charts.noaa.gov/OnLineViewer/18427.shtml

Is there something in particular about Deception pass that makes passage at high water unfavourable?

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQabod-2S2MAhxtkvLF9BUR5hPyAXJJLDV5Q6U4j4MuF5z4n6xE&t=1


http://blog.johnthephotographer.com/images/20080920101721_jtp-whirlpool-deception-pass.jpg

BarnacleGrim
02-04-2011, 11:46 PM
I understood she passed at or near slack water. It's 16 fathoms, so draught at low water is not an issue.

They won't let me manoeuvre big ships in small quarters for a few more years, but I imagine some boats handle whirlpools better than others. I did steer MS Tor Magnolia through an 86 metre bridge span, with orders from the pilot. It's fascinating how responsive and manoeuvrable a 200 m (656') long boat actually is once you get used to the delay.

Old Dryfoot
02-05-2011, 12:06 AM
I know this has been posted before but it is one of the most impressive clips I have seen.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4B3sd0XRFBE

Nicholas Carey
02-05-2011, 12:09 AM
http://www.charts.noaa.gov/OnLineViewer/18427.shtml

Is there something in particular about Deception pass that makes passage at high water unfavourable?
dunno. here the NOAA tidal current predictions for 2011. Pretty typical for Deception Pass.

http://tidesandcurrents.noaa.gov/get_predc.shtml?year=2011&stn=6165+DECEPTION+PASS,+%28Narrows%29+&fldavgd=090&ebbavgd=270

7+ knots current, one way or t'other. Big standing waves. Whirlpools. etc, etc., etc. "Best Practice", at least for small vessels or those with limited git-up-and-go is to wait for slack water lest you find more excitement than is liked.

TimH
02-07-2011, 10:22 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pn7LfOh9dGc

purri
02-07-2011, 11:35 PM
There's a certain spot in the Kimberley region of Oz and it has some "life affirming" conditions that put this to shame. Maybe a google video on Malcolm Douglas might show it.

TimH
02-07-2011, 11:39 PM
There's a certain spot in the Kimberley region of Oz and it has some "life affirming" conditions that put this to shame. Maybe a google video on Malcolm Douglas might show it.

There are serious tidal rips all over the place.

Lew Barrett
02-07-2011, 11:51 PM
Hi Paul.

Either slack, between ebb or flood or high or low water, works for Deception Pass. He'd feel better at high water, I'd think.
4 0126 0427 +6.1 0728 1029 -7.3 1326 1643 +6.2 1940 2254 -7.7
Red is the time of the slack water (thanks Nick). Actually, as Nick said, it was a pretty normal day, and if the captain went through 20 minutes either side of 1940 (this is for 2/04) he probably barely noticed it. If he went through earlier than that, his speed is explained without further requirement of explanation.

But usually, everybody goes through there as fast as the traffic will allow even at slack so I'm not surprised he looked like he was booking. I'm sure he announced his transit through, big as she was and I agree, that's as big a ship as you will ever see in there. She'd be big enough to send shivers of terror through the skipper of any boat coming the other way and she'd look even bigger given the topography as you know. Much smaller boats coming at you tend to make the whole affair very interesting. Her? No way!

Military vessels usually just jump across the Straight if they're coming out of Bremerton or Seattle, but maybe he was working the marks inside or maybe it was nasty out there as has been the case recently. It's been very windy and nasty and the straight can suck even for larger vessels. Who knows? Once he announced her entry, the pass was closed to all other vessels until she got through. Not a great place to be if you were on the other side and he was spooled up making a rate of knots, no sir. Very uncomfortable for a small boat there, yes sir.

Him? The speed just assures she won't get pushed around, depending on the time she went through. It was all over in 6o seconds, if that.

I remember three years or so after we had dinner with you and Ellie and we made that pass the next morning, and it was a mill pond, just a lovely way to get into the Juans. Very pleasant. But it boils if you get there at the wrong time. Beautiful, but odd place.

purri
02-08-2011, 12:08 AM
There are serious tidal rips all over the place.

Ah yes but this one gets a real flogging for the video turistas. Think a tidal rise and fall of 30 metres through a 50 metre entrance.

Lew Barrett
02-08-2011, 12:14 AM
Deception Pass doesn't have a vast tidal range (it is respectable) but it moves a vast amount of water like many narrow passes here do. The speed and force can be.....deceptive.

Old Dryfoot
02-08-2011, 12:20 AM
Saltstraumen Maelstrom, current speeds of 22 knots


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QifgPL--pG8&

Paul Girouard
02-08-2011, 12:50 AM
Hi Paul.

Either slack, between ebb or flood or high or low water, works for Deception Pass. He'd feel better at high water, I'd think.
4 0126 0427 +6.1 0728 1029 -7.3 1326 1643 +6.2 1940 2254 -7.7
Red is the time of the slack water (thanks Nick). Actually, as Nick said, it was a pretty normal day, and if the captain went through 20 minutes either side of 1940 (this is for 2/04) he probably barely noticed it. If he went through earlier than that, his speed is explained without further requirement of explanation.


It was around 1730 when she went thru.

She'd be big enough to send shivers of terror through the skipper of any boat coming the other way and she'd look even bigger given the topography as you know. Much smaller boats coming at you tend to make the whole affair very interesting. Her? No way!

I didn't notice anyone else coming in at the time , but ya IF some one was I'm pretty sure they $hit their pants when they saw her coming out!!




Once he announced her entry, the pass was closed to all other vessels until she got through.


He'd announce on a marine band radio? Just what every channel they use normally? I've fished the hole , or the hold , as some call it before and we never had any radio in the boat. Of course this isn't the time of year to fish there under the bridge which I guess the Skipper would have known. I hope some one under there or in the park happened to have a camera that day and submits a photo to the news paper. Slim chance , but maybe



Him? The speed just assures she won't get pushed around, depending on the time she went through. It was all over in 6o seconds, if that.



Ya like I said I knew I'd never get a good photo even if I ran back out onto the bridge , she was really moving and groovin on out!

Biggest ship I've ever seen run the pass for sure!

ChaseKenyon
02-08-2011, 02:26 AM
There's a certain spot in the Kimberley region of Oz and it has some "life affirming" conditions that put this to shame. Maybe a google video on Malcolm Douglas might show it.


this is it?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUiliNiTxus

BarnacleGrim
02-08-2011, 04:42 AM
Hi Paul.

Either slack, between ebb or flood or high or low water, works for Deception Pass. He'd feel better at high water, I'd think.
4 0126 0427 +6.1 0728 1029 -7.3 1326 1643 +6.2 1940 2254 -7.7
Red is the time of the slack water (thanks Nick). Actually, as Nick said, it was a pretty normal day, and if the captain went through 20 minutes either side of 1940 (this is for 2/04) he probably barely noticed it. If he went through earlier than that, his speed is explained without further requirement of explanation.

You're looking at 4th of August. For 4th of February:
4 0109 +6.6 0439 0721 -7.3 1055 1327 +5.5 1629 1922 -7.3 2241

And here's the tide:

Date Day Time Pred High/Low
2011/02/04 Fri 05:52 AM 8.92 H
2011/02/04 Fri 11:04 AM 4.88 L
2011/02/04 Fri 04:28 PM 7.27 H
2011/02/04 Fri 10:45 PM 0.71 L

As to be expected, slack water coincided with high water, not between high and low, when the current is at it's highest (I'm sure there are exceptions to this rule)

http://tidesandcurrents.noaa.gov/get_predc.shtml?year=2011&stn=6165+DECEPTION+PASS,+%28Narrows%29+&fldavgd=090&ebbavgd=270
http://tidesandcurrents.noaa.gov/noaatidepredictions/NOAATidesFacade.jsp?Stationid=9444900&&bmon=02&bday=04&byear=2011&edate=&timelength=daily


I'm sure he announced his transit through, big as she was and I agree, that's as big a ship as you will ever see in there.
By whistle, I hope. Using the VHF would be incorrect in such a situation, as not everyone is required to carry one. It was never meant to be used for collision avoidance.


(e) A vessel nearing a bend or an area of a channel or fairway where other vessels may be obscured by an intervening obstruction shall sound one prolonged blast. Such signal shall be answered with a prolonged blast by any approaching vessel that may be within hearing around the bend or behind the intervening obstruction.


Once he announced her entry, the pass was closed to all other vessels until she got through.

Local regulation? Normally it wouldn't but it would invoke rule 9, Narrow channels:





(a) A vessel proceeding along the course of a narrow channel or fairway shall keep as near to the outer limit of the channel or fairway which lies on her starboard side as is safe and practicable.
(b) A vessel of less than 20 metres in length or a sailing vessel shall not impede the passage of a vessel which can safely navigate only within a narrow channel or fairway.
(c) A vessel engaged in fishing shall not impede the passage of any other vessel navigating within a narrow channel or fairway.
(d) A vessel shall not cross a narrow channel or fairway if such crossing impedes the passage of a vessel which can safely navigate only within such channel or fairway. The latter vessel may use the sound signal prescribed in Rule 34(d) if in doubt as to the intention of the crossing vessel.

Lew Barrett
02-08-2011, 02:48 PM
You're looking at 4th of August. For 4th of February:
4 0109 +6.6 0439 0721 -7.3 1055 1327 +5.5 1629 1922 -7.3 2241

And here's the tide:

Date Day Time Pred High/Low
2011/02/04 Fri 05:52 AM 8.92 H
2011/02/04 Fri 11:04 AM 4.88 L
2011/02/04 Fri 04:28 PM 7.27 H
2011/02/04 Fri 10:45 PM 0.71 L

When I started to write this, I actually picked out yesterday's data. After posting, I realized that this thread was three days old and hurriedly went back to try and correct the day I'd picked (hence the edit). In the rush, I got it wrong.





By whistle, I hope. Using the VHF would be incorrect in such a situation, as not everyone is required to carry one. It was never meant to be used for collision avoidance.

Local regulation? Normally it wouldn't but it would invoke rule 9, Narrow channels:
[/LIST]

Local practice is to announce on VHF hailing frequency and to use audible signals as appropriate. As a practical matter I find this helpful.

A typical hail goes like this:
"Vessel (name) entering (for example) Deception Pass northbound. Concerned vessels please contact me on Ch. 13."

My experience is that many military vessels (when operating in force) will be preceded by a general announcement to mariners on VHF Ch 16 if a route is to be cleared, but as I wasn't present during Paul's experience, I'd have no way of knowing if anything was transmitted. The same might hold true if a tug with tow might be passing through the channel. A smaller ship operating alone? I can't recall ever hearing them announce themselves, but with the recent changes in Homeland Security regulations (you have to stand off from them) it seems to me (I am speculating a bit) there is more announcement locally between ferries, military vessels and private vessels. This is usually in the form of an announcement to mariners or in the case of transiting a narrow pass, it is issued as a securite.

That's been my experience.

I should only have said "at slack water" for clarity and left the rest out.
Thanks for the correction.


Lew

Ron Williamson
02-08-2011, 07:26 PM
We're required to call a 'Securite' on VHF prior to entering a place called Little Detroit,where there is a very narrow channel, sharp turns and bad viz. due to high banks.
No tide and mild current to speak of.
The direction and ETA, as well as the boat type and size are included in the call.A horn blast would be meaningless.
R

BETTY-B
02-09-2011, 12:31 AM
It could have been USCGC HENRY BLAKE (http://www.uscg.mil/d13/units/factsheets/uscgc_henryblake.pdf). Out of Everett. Here it is just inside the straits, west of Neah Bay:

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d10/Bridgedeck/PDXtoSeattle/P1010215.jpg

TimH
02-09-2011, 12:42 AM
I have seen (likely) that one running up and down Saratoga Passage.

purri
02-09-2011, 04:55 AM
this is it?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUiliNiTxus
Tassim!
Spring tides are worse.

Andrew Craig-Bennett
02-09-2011, 06:19 AM
As someone who once lectured on the Colregs, may I wholeheartedly endorse Barnacle Grim's statement:

....By whistle, I hope. Using the VHF would be incorrect in such a situation, as not everyone is required to carry one. It was never meant to be used for collision avoidance....

Ian McColgin
02-09-2011, 08:00 AM
Modifying Barnacle and Andrew - Sound signals are required. A security call is a good idea to let people know what your situation will be. Security calls are always made on VHF 16 and 13. In special operating districts one may be required to make then on another channel. In the east, prudent pros also put a security on VHF 09. Passing information may be exchanged on the bridge to bridge Channel 13. This is not a security call. It is a suppliment to sound signals, not a substitute, and the language uses sound signal language, "Pass on one whistle" always with perhaps "port to port" if the other boat is a yachtie and thus capeable of nearly infinate confusion.

Lew Barrett
02-12-2011, 10:33 PM
Whatever Ian, Andrew and Grim suggest, it's not the way it happens here in places like Dodd Narrows, Deception Pass, or Porlier Pass, where VHF securite announcements are frequently issued by commercial vessels especially in respect to tugs with tows. It is handy to know a log boom is coming your way in Dodd Narrows, and I am more than happy to know that and then to hold position outside the pass while it comes through.

And equally around here, VHF use is extremely broadly practiced. I have never had to announce the passage of my vessel, which is much to small to give anybody pause in any of the passes I have named, but I hear the securite hails constantly. If everyone used a sound signal while entering these things during slack water, the din and confusion would be intolerable. It is, whatever the regs, sensible practice.

I don't think anybody who hasn't boated up here has any idea how many small passes and tight pieces of water with heavy traffic there can be for so many, many miles. Anybody who has traveled the waters of northern Washington and southern BC knows exactly what I am talking about.

Ian McColgin
02-12-2011, 10:58 PM
I fear Lew may have misunderstood both Andrew's remarks - the force of which is that VHF is NOT A SUBSTITUTE for sound signals - or mine. Sound signals are required when there is a risk. If I'm inbound to Flushing with a light oil can on the head and there's another tug pulling a loaded barge on a gate line outbound, our earlier security calls will have settled the issue, we will each be on our side of the channel, and there is no need for a whistle. Half the time, even when in the discussion one agrees to meet on one whistle, it's enough ahead of time that the sound signal is not required.

WHen I'm in a small boat, just harkening to the security calls will tell me all and so long as I am not doing anything odd, there is no need for me to answer. However if I am beating, especially against the current, in a narrow channel that takes less than a minute for even a slow boat at three knots to cross, I'll make my own security call and if need be explain my timing, especially how I see their course and speed, so that they know my moves will not require them to alter course. Just common sense and courtesy.

We have a narrow channel and many yachts are woefully ignorent - don't listen to the VHF or know what's happening - so the majority of sound signals we hear are either one or two to indicate direction, followed by five or more . . . . . . you get the drift.

Lew Barrett
02-13-2011, 08:16 PM
I did interpret them to mean that the Securite hails were an inappropriate substitute, whereas they are superlatively informative in the circumstance I am describing. Warning against the risk of collision is not what I have been discussing at any point.

Ian McColgin
02-13-2011, 09:14 PM
Exactly Lew. Sound signals are required (and commercial boats of all sizes use them) when risk of collision exists. If a security call and information exchange are timely, complete and understood, as the situation evolves there is no risk of collision and thus no sound signal.

In some harbors the commercial boats confidently ignore yacht traffic that is not going to be in the way anyhow. In Nantucket, Hyannis and often Woods Hole (less often Vineyardhaven) the ferries use sound signals with some vigor to get the yachties to pay some attention.

BarnacleGrim
02-14-2011, 03:25 AM
I don't think Securité calls should be overused either. They have a very specific purpose, to give warning of navigational hazards. Displaced buoys, flotsam, mines, drifting vessels, gale warnings, etc. The sort of thing you would typically get over NAVTEX.