Lifting and Supporting a 51' patrol boat

[Arion]

Hello everyone,
I'm new to this forum and I would greatly appreciate any advise.
I have this 51' ex Italian Customs Police fast patrol boat which needs to be urgently taken out of the water. It hasn't come out for at least 5-6 years. It is of triple layer mahogany construction and it weighs about 18 tons. It also has w massive Iveco 440 hp engines.
My query is. What would be the best way to haul her out bearing in mind that the local crane operators only use 2 slings. And also what would be the recommended keel and chine support for such a vessel.
Kind regards
1326

[Ian McColgin]

Hauling on two slings is the natural since it's so hard to take an even strain with three. Depending on where the engines are, this could be a real pain - like if it's a V drive. If the engines are in the normal place for a boat of this sort, about amidships, then it's easy as you put the aft sling to catch the aft end of the keel and put the other sling wherever is comfortable. If the engines are a bit aft, you might have to put the aft sling just ahead of the stuffing boxes.

Once out, block at maybe three places under the keel and put poppetts under the chines for balance, not load carrying.

[seo]

First, I'd talk to someone who has experience with these vessels. The best way of rigging them to lift may already to worked out and tested, very possibly by the people who designed the boat in the first place. Looking at the little drawing of the boat, I'd guess that the engines are right aft, with vee-drives. This suggests that the after sling should be under the engines, wherever they are. If they're right aft, you may need a diver to lead the slings over the shafts, clear of the stern bearings and/or struts, etc. The nice things is that there are heavy engine beds to distribute the strain from the slings.
Assuming that she has pretty big fuel tanks, I'd want those empty.
How the rigging is done depends on the crane available. if it's a single-hook hoist, you need to have the center of gravity of the vessel at the center of the slings. With two hooks (either two cranes or a single crane with two whips) the CG isn't so critical. It's possible to use more than two slings, by using a longitudinal rocker link with the hoist at the center of the link, and the slings made fast at each end. But the riggers are probably already dealing with at least transverse spreaders, and maybe longitudinal ones as well. More stuff is just more stuff to go wrong, and if riggers who've picked this type of hull say it can be done with two slings, well...

[Lucky Luke]

Attention danger there!

http://www.altomareblu.com/wp-content/uploads/LenaviscuoladellaGuardiadiFinanza_13C5B/gl314.jpg

These old boats hulls (built by Baglietto) have afterwards (in the sixties) been used only slightly modified for the "Ischia" series motor-yachts. Although the hulls for these rather cheap motor-yachts were of a much lower quality than those for the "guardia di finanza", these boats are VERY fragile along their chines. They are not deep Vee, (as you know) and nor is the engine completely aft/ V-drive (unlike some Ischias), unless transformed (?). They were supposed to be lifted on a slipway, not by using slings, and suffer when hoisted by travel-lifts or crane. If there is no other choice, I would strongly recommend that you have long (over a meter) angle bars fitted with padding inside (old carpets) under each sling if you do not want to damage the chines deflectors or - worse! - to have structural damage as you may very well have the slings in-between frames. You will absolutely need not only transverse spacers but also longitudinal (a rectangular frame) otherwise the slings may slip and come in a position where the hull is not strong enough, or in the worse scenario gather together and you boat "plunge". If you can have only transverse spreaders, have a rope from your forward and aft bollards and anchor winch to keep them in position and avoid this. When starting to hoist, the crane operator (and his helpers) will very well see if they are positioned correctly or will adjust accordingly.

Emptying the tanks is a MUST (18 tons would be the lightweight!)

After hoisting, she will rest very easily on her long keel and it is easy to install lateral supports that must be right inside of the chine deflectors .

There was some discussion in "Yachtforums" a while ago, where you will find pictures and longitudinal drawing these old Bagliettos, including one (aft engine) being crane lifted (with FOUR slings, the after-most sling being actually in a wrong position where it could easily slip aft):

http://www.yachtforums.com/forums/baglietto-yacht/10780-vintage-baglietto.html

http://www.yachtforums.com/forums/attachments/baglietto-yacht/29099-vintage-baglietto-baglietto-019.jpg?d=1235781271

http://www.yachtforums.com/forums/attachments/baglietto-yacht/31727-vintage-baglietto-bag-lineart.gif?d=1249407847

This last picture has the engine in the same position as your "GL300" serie. Best place for the slings would be: aft E.R. bulkhead and right forward of main fuel tanks.

You may like to contact the owners who posted there for further information.

[seo]

Arion,
It looks as if you've found very good advice from "Lucky Luke," complete with pictures! Too bad that the picture doesn't include a photo of the crane. Just on the basis of those transverse spreaders, it is a very serious piece of equipment. The apparent lack of longitudinal spreaders suggest that the crane's jib whip is being used on one set of slings, and the main stick whip for the other set. It's often surprising how long the main stick has to be for a lift of this type. My guess is you'd need at least 100' main hook height, and a 30' jib. That is not a cheap crane to rent.

Based on Luke's comments on the weakness of the chines, I'd suggest looking for an alternative to a sling lift. Railway? Floating drydock? Drydock? Synchro lift? Drydock/railway may not be feasible if you're doing a long refit, because the daily fee will kill you. An advantage of some floating drydocks, and most syncro-lifts, is that the boat can be moved off the drydock/lift with a hydraulic trailer (or by a house-mover with a sense of adventure) and set down in a building, or on some piece of real estate that rents for less than a marine railway carriage.
I'd suggest making the rounds of yards that deal with barges and small freighters. In many places they've modernized their gear for hauling out hulls, as the hulls have grown larger. There may be a little old railway sitting more or less unused at some shipyard...

[Arion]

Thank you all for your views and recommendations.
Lucky Luke I'm really surprised that you're so well versed in these ex Guardia di Finanza boats! Ever since I've had her, which is over 5 years now, I 've been doing a lot of reasearch and only recently that I've come across the picture in full GdF livery. That picture is actually on my desktop backround! My boat was part of a group of 3 identical boats donated by the Italian government to the Maltese Armed Forces. The other two have since been broken up. Mine was last used as a training vessel for cadets.
I have posted pictures of the actual boat now and when it was in AFM service. My dilemma is to find a proper use for it. The question being whether to do an 'Ischia' type conversion or restore her to her former military glory? The main consideration being functionality.
As for the haul out, unfortunately it will have to be by sling lift. The crane operator is equiped with speaders and will be using 12" wide slings.

Regards to all!

[Arion]

I'm sorry but I can't seem to be able to upload anymore pictures!
Can anyone please show me the right way to do it? I've posted some picture on Photobucket and tried pasting the URL from there, but still to no avail.

[Arion]

Finally I've managed!
These are the 3 sister boats when in service at the Maritime Squadrom AFMhttp://i1085.photobucket.com/albums/j438/arion75/p3420p36p3720moored2020haywharf.jpg?t=1296816320

[Arion]

Another shot in AFM servicehttp://i1085.photobucket.com/albums/j438/arion75/p3420e-gh.jpg?t=1296816320

[Arion]

When in GdF service
http://i1085.photobucket.com/albums/j438/arion75/ShipPhotoGL314.jpg?t=1296816766

Presently
http://i1085.photobucket.com/albums/j438/arion75/Arion002resized1jpg.jpg?t=1296816766

[seo]

Arion,
I've never been to Malta, and know nothing about what may be there in the way of cranes, shipyards, etc. I also don't know how much junk is lying around from which to build stuff.
All that being said, I launch and haul my 40' lod sailboat (4'11 draft with board up, 11'+ beam, weighs about 23,000 Lbs) using a "low gear" that I build out of a junked 1965 Ford 600 truck, which had a GVW capacity of about 18,000 Lbs.)
First I took the cab and body off, and built a "cradle" on the truck frame, and launched the low gear down a ramp, floated the boat onto the cradle (I do diving work, so did my own underwater rigging), and then hauled it out with a tow-truck/wrecker's winch. It could be moved around at very low speed, and front axle's steering still worked (kind of).
As a later improvement I cut the front axle apart, and shortened it so that the front wheels were only 6 inches apart, and pivoted on a spindle that I welded onto the truck frame.
If you're gong to be on Malta for the long run, and plan to keep the boat, this might be a rational approach. It means that the boat can be moved away from the waterfront, so for a long-term repair it might save a lot of money over being in a boat yard.
If there's a launching ramp available, it might work. One advantage you'd have is that I don't think Malta has much tide. Typical tide range in my part of Maine is 8-10', so you have a very limited time frame in which to get the boat on the low gear, all centered and aligned and ready to haul. Where the tide is in inches, one can be much more leisurely.
If I understand "Lucky Luke's comments, the bottom is almost flat right aft. This might be an advantage in rigging up a low gear, because the blocking plan would be pretty easy to figure out.
Advantages of this approach: 1) it would keep you busy and out of trouble for at least ten days. 2) It might win the respect of the workboat types in the harbor, who aren't bad people to know.
Assuming that this is impossible, and that the "tender chine" problem is truly daunting, you might consider getting a good-sized I-beam that's long enough to span the hull back aft. Measure it up and weld cradle supports to the I-beam, and lifting eyes. Then this beam can be put in place under the machinery space. If the I-beam is long enough, and/or the crane's hook height is high enough, you might not even need transverse spreaders- just a two-part bridle from the crane's main hook. It looks as if there's enough shape up forward so that a sling with a transverse spreader would work all right.
Essentially, this is just a way of rigging the after transverse spreader in a way that doesn't put any pressure on the chines.
The transverse "cradle beam" would stay in place under the hull while the boat is hauled out, eliminating some work in shoring and propping. Also, it would simplify the crane rigger's job and cut costs, because the cradle beam would only be rigged once for each round trip.

[5.5 Meter]

Hauling on two slings is the natural since it's so hard to take an even strain with three.

WHAT? Iran, if that is the case then Marine-Travelift is in big trouble. Their largest off the rack travel lift (500 Tons) has 24 slings.

Arion, If someone is going to have the capacity to lift your boat they should also have the knowledge as to how to best pick it up…it’s their business. You may want to construct what are called Shine Blocks to distribute the sling load at the shine.

[seo]

WHAT? Iran, if that is the case then Marine-Travelift is in big trouble. Their largest off the rack travel lift (500 Tons) has 24 slings.

Arion, If someone is going to have the capacity to lift your boat they should also have the knowledge as to how to best pick it up…it’s their business. You may want to construct what are called Shine Blocks to distribute the sling load at the shine.

A modern, multi-million dollar crane or sling lift (Travelift) has computerized strain gauges that allow it to do the hoisting calculations and equalize the load on the fly. Great stuff, but the owners of those gizmae will very naturally want to charge prices that will reflect the cost of the gizmo.
You're right that the rigger will have an idea of how they want to rig the pick, and it's probably a good, workable, idea. It may be calculated to do the job at minimum cost to the customer. Or maybe, to provide maximum revenue to the crane company. Or somewhere in between...

[seo]

A second comment in response to #12 above:
"Arion, If someone is going to have the capacity to lift your boat they should also have the knowledge as to how to best pick it up…it’s their business. You may want to construct what are called Shine Blocks to distribute the sling load at the shine.
This is a little bit non-logical. If the "someone" with the crane also has the knowledge to do the rigging, then there's no need for the boat owner to concern themselves with construction of "Shine Blocks". If they're needed, the crane operator will know about it, right?
Actually, no. Many crane operators are experts in all kinds of rigging. Some just know how to set the hook and pick the load. The crane operator's job is operating the crane. A rigger is asked to rig all kinds of picks. He may be expert in wooden boat hulls, or he may have never seen one before.

[5.5 Meter]

A modern, multi-million dollar crane or sling lift (Travelift) has computerized strain gauges that allow it to do the hoisting calculations and equalize the load on the fly. Great stuff, but the owners of those gizmae will very naturally want to charge prices that will reflect the cost of the gizmo.
You're right that the rigger will have an idea of how they want to rig the pick, and it's probably a good, workable, idea. It may be calculated to do the job at minimum cost to the customer. Or maybe, to provide maximum revenue to the crane company. Or somewhere in between...

True but they are monitoring the lift point not the sling load and the big boy was used just for illustration purpose that things do get picked up by more then two straps. The point being that the originally comment was idiotic. With a 3-sling pick, two are going to be combined to a single pick (For illustration purpose...perhaps a bar) and that bar’s balance point is going to then tie in to the pick…thus balancing the load.

[5.5 Meter]

A second comment in response to #12 above:
"
Actually, no. Many crane operators are experts in all kinds of rigging. Some just know how to set the hook and pick the load. The crane operator's job is operating the crane. A rigger is asked to rig all kinds of picks. He may be expert in wooden boat hulls, or he may have never seen one before.

You are getting like me and posting an extreime. Yes the crane opporater knows his crane, the rigger knowns the rigging, the wood guy knows his wood. But nun of them come together...your assuming that one is calling crane to come down to the waters edge at some parking lot to pick something up. I'm assuming that the boat will be picked up at and by a conventional marine yard...with a lift or crane set up for picking boats...again it's there business.

Shine blocks are just a little something extra, some yards use them and some don't. Kind of like in the picture above, the rigger put in something above the lower rub-rail to push the sling out from the hull so that there would not be any 'up' movement on the rub rail as the sling came under load. Some yards do that some don't. And if they don't you can ask that they do.
Some yards put padding on the slings some don't...just because they don't pad the slings does not mean they don't know how to pick the boat.

[seo]

I don't know anything about the port facilities in Malta. I think it used to be a naval base for the British, so I assume there's at least the vestiges of a dockyard there. If they're using a shipyard crane, the operators and riggers may be much more familiar with steel hulls and vessel parts. But, once again, this is all idle speculation on my part.

[Arion]

Thank you all for your comments.

The lift will be carried out next week by an experienced crane operator and it will be hauled out onto the quay.
Seo at one point I was actually considering using an I beam along the keel to spead the load. The boat does infact have 2 steel reinforcing bars on each side running from the chines to the engine beds. So it has been deemed that using 12" straps with spreaders and wood planking to support the chines on the outside, to be sufficiently adequate. The keel will be supported on stone blocks.
And yes it was formerly a naval base for the british forces and the dockyard is still here. They also have the facilities to drydock such a vessel there as do a couple of other yards. The problem being is that this is a rather long term project and drydocking would render the whole operation not viable.

[seo]

Arion,
best of luck, and take plenty of pictures!

[Arion]

http://forum.woodenboat.com/<a href=http://i1085.photobucket.com/albums/j438/arion75/Photo-0068.jpghttp://s1085.photobucket.com/upload/albums/arion75/
At the end of the day I opted for a hydraulic trailer haul out! Here are some pictures of the operation

[Arion]

http://i1085.photobucket.com/albums/j438/arion75/Photo-0074.jpg?t=1300053946

[Arion]

http://i1085.photobucket.com/albums/j438/arion75/Photo-0078.jpg?t=1300053946

[Arion]

http://i1085.photobucket.com/albums/j438/arion75/Photo-0079.jpg?t=1300053946

[Arion]

http://i1085.photobucket.com/albums/j438/arion75/Photo-0080.jpg?t=1300053946http://i1085.photobucket.com/albums/j438/arion75/Photo-0084.jpg?t=1300054410

[Arion]

http://i1085.photobucket.com/albums/j438/arion75/Photo-0083.jpg?t=1300054410

[Arion]

Finally all blocked up waiting for a survey to determine necessary repairs.

http://i1085.photobucket.com/albums/j438/arion75/Photo-0085.jpg?t=1300054410

[Sailor]

Cool shots.

[BrianW]

Well, all that sling talk, and then ya went with the hydraulic trailer. :) I don't blame you.

Gorgeous location. I don't see any other boats on the hard.

Is there enough vertical clearance to pull the shafts if needed?

[Arion]

Well, all that sling talk, and then ya went with the hydraulic trailer. :) I don't blame you.

Gorgeous location. I don't see any other boats on the hard.

Is there enough vertical clearance to pull the shafts if needed?

Quite right. In fact I didn't know of it's existence! Actually it's being operated by a guy in Gozo our sister island who's come back from the US.

Good point re the shafts. Hope that won't be needed though!

After the initial inspection there's certainly work to be done to the keel which would need the bottom wearing part replaced. There's also damage to to transom which was repaired by supposedely marine ply when in service. This has in fact completely disentegrated!
The same method was used to reiforce the mahogany planks around the engine exhausts.

Kalkara Creek , nice location indeed. There are some other boats further along the quay and a boat yard across the creek, who incidentally refused to haul her out! Those same bastions you see in the pictures were the scene of a very fierce battle in 1565 between a Turkish army and the Knights of Malta who were based on the island during that period.

[seo]

Great to see the hull out of the water.
I'm glad that you turned up a hydro trailer. In the hands of a good operator they're a good way to go. Particularly because you can get back from the water, away from the "maritime high rent district" that is the waterfront.
You might find that by tipping the bow down, pivoting the hull from a point just aft of the center of weight, that the stern rises up, and the angle of the shaft gets closer to horizontal, making it maybe possible to draw the shafts without jacking the stern up.
You have a very lovely spot for working on a boat. I imagine the place awash in history, with ghosts of the Knights of Malta, etc.

[Arion]

Great to see the hull out of the water.
I'm glad that you turned up a hydro trailer. In the hands of a good operator they're a good way to go. Particularly because you can get back from the water, away from the "maritime high rent district" that is the waterfront.
You might find that by tipping the bow down, pivoting the hull from a point just aft of the center of weight, that the stern rises up, and the angle of the shaft gets closer to horizontal, making it maybe possible to draw the shafts without jacking the stern up.
You have a very lovely spot for working on a boat. I imagine the place awash in history, with ghosts of the Knights of Malta, etc.

Thanks for the tip Seo. I'm just hoping that we won't have to take the shafts out. What surely needs to be done is repairs to the keel which has eroded in several points. Also repairs to the transom and planking around the exhaust ports which aren't that serious.
My main concern now is to find the best way to repair that keel.

Yes the place has a lot of history . In fact a couple of hundred metres down the road Grand Master Jean de La Vallette got wounded in an epic battle with the Turks way back in 1565!

[Larks]

What a great thread, "Arion" looks like a terrific project, I've only just had time to catch up on this and am really looking forward to seeing this progress.

Are those concrete building blocks that she is sitting on? Breeze blocks (or Besser Blocks as we call them here) ? If so you really need to swap them out as soon as possible as they are very likely to explode under the weight. If they are solid concrete ignore my concerns but otherwise you really need timber blocks (or solid concrete blocks).

Despite that though, all the very best with the project, I hope the survey goes well for you, she looks like she's worth the effort. Have you done much with her since you've had her?

[Arion]

What a great thread, "Arion" looks like a terrific project, I've only just had time to catch up on this and am really looking forward to seeing this progress.

Are those concrete building blocks that she is sitting on? Breeze blocks (or Besser Blocks as we call them here) ? If so you really need to swap them out as soon as possible as they are very likely to explode under the weight. If they are solid concrete ignore my concerns but otherwise you really need timber blocks (or solid concrete blocks).

Despite that though, all the very best with the project, I hope the survey goes well for you, she looks like she's worth the effort. Have you done much with her since you've had her?

Actually they're solid limestone blocks. Same material as the bastions behind her! They should take the weight well enough!
Haven't done anything at all with her since I've had her in fact. Except to moving her from one berthing place to another and taking her out of the harbour on one occasion.
In fact that is quite a dilemma I have. What future use for the boat? Full conversion into a pleasure boat or keep it's present layout to be used as a work boat.

[Lew Barrett]

Good choice. Looks like she will benefit from your efforts. There are several Bagliettos here in Seattle including one major restoration now taking place (at Jensen's) of a 70 foot (I believe) version. They are sleek looking rigs.

[Larks]

Actually they're solid limestone blocks. Same material as the bastions behind her! They should take the weight well enough!
Haven't done anything at all with her since I've had her in fact. Except to moving her from one berthing place to another and taking her out of the harbour on one occasion.
In fact that is quite a dilemma I have. What future use for the boat? Full conversion into a pleasure boat or keep it's present layout to be used as a work boat.

I can understand the dilemma. What do you think is most likely to give her a chance of longevity where you are after she leaves your care? Is there enough historic value to keep her in her current configuration or is she likely to be of more interest to potential future owners as a pleasure boat or comfortable fast commuter boat?

[BrianW]

In fact that is quite a dilemma I have. What future use for the boat? Full conversion into a pleasure boat or keep it's present layout to be used as a work boat.

It would appear that either conversion would involve a major conversion of the rear half of the cabin area (behind the flybridge.) Personally, I'd look at enclosing that area and extending the 'house' aft, with walls port and startboard, and perhaps an open rear, with canvas for raining days.

[Arion]

I can understand the dilemma. What do you think is most likely to give her a chance of longevity where you are after she leaves your care? Is there enough historic value to keep her in her current configuration or is she likely to be of more interest to potential future owners as a pleasure boat or comfortable fast commuter boat?

Good point Larks. This is one thing that I would have to establish. There have been instances where ex British navy vessels similar to this were converted to pleasure cruise boats or into luxurious yachts. Case in point is the Barracuda an ex WWII vessel, which incidentally is up for sale . The original plan was to use the boat in it's present configuration as a boat recovery vessel. but that idea has now been shelved. I would think that it's future would be brighter as a comfortable pleasure boat though.

[Arion]

It would appear that either conversion would involve a major conversion of the rear half of the cabin area (behind the flybridge.) Personally, I'd look at enclosing that area and extending the 'house' aft, with walls port and startboard, and perhaps an open rear, with canvas for raining days.

In fact either way it would be more opportune to utilise the deck area you mentioned in a much better way as in it's present configuration there's a lot of 'wasted' space.

[MurphIschia]

Good to see that you went with the hydraulic trailer!
These old girls don't like slings. I know of two Ischias that have had serious chine damage from lifting with slings.
I've always used a rail for my boat. Love seeing your boat out of the water, something cool about a Baglietto out of the sea. These old girls sure do look good on the hard but like any sultry woman they sure make it expensive to get a peek at their bottoms. Here's a couple shots of "Arrivederci" out of the water while we spruced up her hull. Good luck with your boat, keep us posted with pics of your progress.
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m151/Murph360/Baglietto%20Painting/DSC00637.jpg
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m151/Murph360/Baglietto%20Painting/DSC00632.jpg
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m151/Murph360/Baglietto%20Painting/DSC00634.jpg
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m151/Murph360/Baglietto%20Painting/DSC00583.jpg
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m151/Murph360/Baglietto%20Painting/DSC00584.jpg
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m151/Murph360/Baglietto%20Painting/DSC00585.jpg

[MurphIschia]

It would be good to see you bring her back to her glory days with the Guardia.
This restored patrol boat was berthed next to me while I was waiting to be hauled out.
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m151/Murph360/Baglietto%20Painting/DSC00653.jpg
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m151/Murph360/Baglietto%20Painting/DSC00654.jpg
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m151/Murph360/Baglietto%20Painting/DSC00658.jpg

[simonmags]

Anything much happened on the boat Arion, is she still in the same location on the limestone blocks. Looking forward to seeing some progress of your restoration.