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View Full Version : As the mixing pot swirls, will tensions simply vanish?



George Jung
01-30-2011, 10:00 AM
Times article; long, interesting.



The crop of students moving through college right now includes the largest group of mixed-race people ever to come of age in the United States, and they are only the vanguard: the country is in the midst of a demographic shift driven by immigration (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/subjects/i/immigration_and_refugees/index.html?inline=nyt-classifier) and intermarriage.
One in seven new marriages (http://pewresearch.org/pubs/1616/american-marriage-interracial-interethnic) is between spouses of different races or ethnicities, according to data from 2008 and 2009 that was analyzed by the Pew Research Center (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/organizations/p/pew_research_center/index.html?inline=nyt-org). Multiracial and multiethnic Americans (usually grouped together as “mixed race”) are one of the country’s fastest-growing demographic groups. And experts expect the racial results of the 2010 census, which will start to be released next month, to show the trend continuing or accelerating.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/30/us/30mixed.html?hp



No one knows quite how the growth of the multiracial population will change the country. Optimists say the blending of the races is a step toward transcending race, to a place where America is free of bigotry, prejudice and programs like affirmative action.
Pessimists say that a more powerful multiracial movement will lead to more stratification and come at the expense of the number and influence of other minority groups, particularly African-Americans.
And some sociologists say that grouping all multiracial people together glosses over differences in circumstances between someone who is, say, black and Latino, and someone who is Asian and white. (Among interracial couples, white-Asian pairings tend to be better educated and have higher incomes, according to Reynolds Farley (http://www.psc.isr.umich.edu/people/profile/27), a professor emeritus at the University of Michigan (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/organizations/u/university_of_michigan/index.html?inline=nyt-org).)


Sometimes it's difficult to see past the end of your nose. But looking forward, I'd expect lessening tensions.

George Jung
01-30-2011, 10:12 AM
Catholic?

Oy vey!

Hehe. I read a bit more, end of the article, saw this:



Vicky Key, a past president of the Multiracial and Biracial Student Association, who is Greek and black, joined her. The question for discussion was whether Mr. Obama is the first black president or the first multiracial president.
Ms. Key, a senior, remembered someone answering the question without much discussion: “One-drop rule, he’s black.”
“But we were like, ‘Wait!’ ” she said. “That’s offensive to us. We sat there and tried to advocate, but they said, ‘No, he’s black and that’s it.’ Then someone said, ‘Stop taking away our black president.’ I didn’t understand where they were coming from, and they didn’t understand me.”



Little steps.

ljb5
01-30-2011, 10:15 AM
The only thing worse than allowing this would be trying to prevent it.

George Jung
01-30-2011, 10:19 AM
Care to expand on that?

Not sure which direction you're heading.

ljb5
01-30-2011, 10:26 AM
Care to expand on that?

Not sure which direction you're heading.

Just saying the concept of 'allowing' or 'preventing' societal change is somewhat silly when we're talking about liberty.

A lot of people out there bitch and moan when told they have to "Press 1 for English".... but what's the alternative? Who's going to tell the banks that they can't serve their Spanish speaking customers?

They want to make English the 'official' language.... then turn around and complain that there are too many government regulations.

The increase in multi-racial people in this country is because that's what people want. It is the result of freedom.

ljb5
01-30-2011, 10:42 AM
I've never heard anyone complain about that, but I've also never heard a telephone support system which said "Press 1 for English." "Press 1 for Spanish," yes.

What a strange thing to get exercised about.

"press 1 for Spanish" (http://www.google.com/search?q=%22press+1+for+english%22&rls=com.microsoft:en-us&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&startIndex=&startPage=1#sclient=psy&hl=en&rls=com.microsoft:en-us&q=%22press+1+for+Spanish%22&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&pbx=1&fp=bcaeff34de3e5e5f) -- 60,000 hits.

"press 1 for English" (http://www.google.com/search?q=%22press+1+for+english%22&rls=com.microsoft:en-us&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&startIndex=&startPage=1#sclient=psy&hl=en&rls=com.microsoft:en-us&q=%22press%201%20for%20English%22&aq=&aqi=&aql=&oq=&pbx=1&fp=bcaeff34de3e5e5f&pf=p&pdl=300) - 527,000 hits.... including, apparently an activist song and a movie by that exact title.

What do I win?

S.V. Airlie
01-30-2011, 10:48 AM
Norman..probably the religious mix, Catholic and Jewish mix caused more grief or required a papal dispensation..Not the other way around.. A protestant friend had to get the approval in essence of the pope to marry his Catholic wife...Just paperwork but still. And with regards to the Church service..Which one did your daughter go through? just curious. One of my good friends ( he even borrowed my car to go propose ) is Jewish..his wife is Catholic. I was an usher..of two..They had a dual service...

ishmael
01-30-2011, 10:49 AM
I welcome the mix. The pace may be a bit too fast.

Learn English! This is the United States, and that's what we speak here.

My forbears were French and Gerrman Protestants, one wave around 1700 and one around 1850. They came here to make a different life, and part of the contract was that they fit in. That meant learning the language and the ways. They did and it worked out well.

Learn English.

S.V. Airlie
01-30-2011, 10:54 AM
I agree Ish..Among my friends, I have Jews marrying Catholics, and Protestants. I also have two sisters (wasp?) marry two Indians.. One thirty years older and blind. Both girls are more than happily married..Kids are great..etc.

I guess, if there is a supposed issue, I just don't see it.

ljb5
01-30-2011, 10:57 AM
Who Googled it?

Perhaps you should have, before you decided to challenge it.

Tom Montgomery
01-30-2011, 11:06 AM
Sometimes it's difficult to see past the end of your nose. But looking forward, I'd expect lessening tensions.

I think so too. Love conquers all, and increasing interracial marriages tends to eventually break through prejudices, IMO.

I remember my grandfather's prejudices regarding the Irish. He was born in 1900. And he disliked them despite the fact that most Irish were co-religionists!

Keith Wilson
01-30-2011, 11:23 AM
Well, I've done my bit. I'm as WASP as they come. My kids were born in Korea. One of 'em married a young women of Scottish-English ancestry from BC. The other one's dating an African-American guy (I've got some doubts about him, but they aren't because of his skin color.). The general attitude I've seen among my kids' generation towards mixed-race couples is complete indifference; it just doesn't seem to be an issue. I think the fuss on the far right now is the fearful reaction of old folks who see their familiar world disappearing.


Learn English! This is the United States, and that's what we speak here.

No, it's not the only thing we speak here, and it never was. We've always had lots of immigrants from places where they don't speak English. Those that come here as adults learn English fairly slowly, and often never speak it fluently. Their kids speak English fluently, maybe with an accent, and a child's version of their parent's language. Their grandchildren speak pure Merkin. It was ever thus. To be very blunt, hectoring people to "Learn English!" is stupid, ungracious and counterproductive. The fact that you can't get much of a job without English proficiency is a stronger motivation than anything you can do; all else is just mean-spiritedness.

I've told this story before, but it bears repeating. I have a good friend who's pastor of a church in a small town founded by German immigrants in the late 1870s. Thy didn't have services in English until the 1920s, and then it was only once a week. The German-language services didn't go away until after WWII. Current immigrants generally learn English and assimilate faster than previous generations did.

Tom Montgomery
01-30-2011, 11:32 AM
A lot of people out there bitch and moan when told they have to "Press 1 for English".... but what's the alternative? Who's going to tell the banks that they can't serve their Spanish speaking customers?

When you call my bank's toll free number you get a message in English ("Welcome to BB&T!") followed by a message in Spanish (directing Spanish speaking customers to press '89'). The message from then on is in English.

What's the problem?

Tom Montgomery
01-30-2011, 11:36 AM
I've told this before: my grandfather Klingshirn was born in 1900. He was a second generation American. The family spoke German in the home. My grandfather did not learn English until he entered school. This was not unusual at the time. This is what happens in most immigrant homes to this day. I fail to see the problem.

S.V. Airlie
01-30-2011, 11:37 AM
Tom..there is nothing wrong per se..but for many who have lived in the country for 20 yrs. some English should be expected. One does not go to Sweden and expect everything to be labelled in English just to enable those who can't even try. If one is in another country, for any length of time, I would try at least to try.. But here I don't have to.

Keith Wilson
01-30-2011, 11:41 AM
If "pressing 1 for English" really bothers you, you desperately need to get a life. But this is serious thread drift, though, onto another subject that usually generates a lot of heat and little light, and maybe we should stop it.

George's point is very important. For most of the history of the US, racial distinctions (whites / everybody else) were a defining part of our culture. That seems to be starting to fade away. With luck, we may end up with attitudes more like Brazilians. I think this is a Very Good Thing.

S.V. Airlie
01-30-2011, 11:47 AM
Kieth you just don't get it..Fine..If I was Chinese and in this country for say 30 yrs, do I deserve the same courtesy of having everything written for me in Chinese?

Keith Wilson
01-30-2011, 11:50 AM
Jamie, you just don't get it.

Why do you care? They're not making you learn Chinese.

¿Por qué le preocupe tanto? Vd. no tiene que apreder Cantonés.

S.V. Airlie
01-30-2011, 11:53 AM
They wouldn't have to make me Kieth..It would be recorded..Push 3.

And Idon't care.. I am used to punching one..or two or whatever number needed to get an English voice...But you did not answer my question..avoidance syndrome..okay get it..

Keith Wilson
01-30-2011, 12:04 PM
Avoidance? Nonsense. Who "expects" it? All multiple language stuff is voluntary in this country. If a business wants to attract customers who speak a language other than English, it's in their interest to make sure their customers can get what they want. If a public service (court, hospital, train station) has a lot of clients who speak a language other than English, then they wouldn't be doing their job if they didn't try to communicate. What's it to you? Did the third line of my post (the same sentence translated into Spanish) cause you the slightest inconvenience or injury?

S.V. Airlie
01-30-2011, 12:09 PM
The question was Kieth..If you were Chinese living in this country for 30 yrs would you give him the courtesy of putting a recording on the phobne system etc in Chinese? Sure as with everything, it comes down to economics but we have already a growing pop. of Asian people here. Not as large as Spanish speaking folks but you don't hear the other nationalities scream fro equal treatment do you?

Oh never mind...If I go to Mexico or any other country, I will make an effort to learn the language of that country.
In 20 years, I actually might be able to...

Peerie Maa
01-30-2011, 12:10 PM
Tom..there is nothing wrong per se..but for many who have lived in the country for 20 yrs. some English should be expected. One does not go to Sweden and expect everything to be labelled in English just to enable those who can't even try. If one is in another country, for any length of time, I would try at least to try.. But here I don't have to.

Jamie, on your logic you should have learned a First Peoples language, and be feeling grateful if the shops offer English as an alternative.

rbgarr
01-30-2011, 12:26 PM
I don't care for the melting pot/mixing pot (homogenizing?) analogy for multiple ethnic and cultural aspects of the country's population. I prefer the idea of a seasoned, interesting salad. (Jamie would like lots of bacon bits of course....) :D

The idea of needing to define Obama as black or not seems really fruitless and beside the point.

S.V. Airlie
01-30-2011, 12:28 PM
No..not at all..if I lived in another country for X number of years, I would expect have some language skills of my adopted home. If I came across an item in the store that was, in part, in English...it would be a surprise not something that I would expect or hope for...No need.

Peerie Maa
01-30-2011, 12:30 PM
I don't care for the melting pot/mixing pot (homogenizing?) analogy for multiple ethnic and cultural aspects of the country's population. I prefer the idea of a seasoned, interesting salad. (Jamie would like lots of bacon bits of course....) :D

Its an old idea.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4HHT_V294Co

ishmael
01-30-2011, 12:33 PM
Keith,

Of course there are other languages spoken here. If I hadn't known a smattering of Spanish I'd have been a bit lost the times I visited the Tex/Mex border. A lot of Spanglish running around them parts.

Yet English is, and should remain, the Lingua Franca of the U.S.

Why? How else can we make contracts? From a practical point of view, if you move here and become ghetto-ized in a small community where you only understand your native language, you lose.

If I were to move to say Mexico I'd expect to learn better Spanish. I wouldn't expect every shop keeper to know English.

rbgarr
01-30-2011, 12:34 PM
Its an old idea.

Of course it is, but that makes no difference to me. Still don't care for it.

S.V. Airlie
01-30-2011, 12:35 PM
Fine folks..say what youwant..

When I spent 4 months working in Brazil....you know a Portugese speaking country.. I used to go to the market..Those in the market did not obviously speak English..Very few people did..no biggie..I tried my best to learn at least a bit in those four months to communicate with those selling items such as food etc. Did I learn more than the basics, No, of course not but as I was not there long enough..But at least I made an effort.

rbgarr
01-30-2011, 12:39 PM
If I were to move to say Mexico I'd expect to learn better Spanish. I wouldn't expect every shop keeper to know English.

Ever been to Canada and other countries where multiple languages are learned and practiced? It's delightful and a sign of a cultured and advanced educational system IMO. My niece and her husband taught English in China for a year and the eagerness of the Chinese of all ages to learn English and teach them Chinese was enthralling. My best friend's wife is Norwegian/Belgian. They speak all three languages at home, though he isn't as good with the Norwegian as French. :D

rbgarr
01-30-2011, 12:42 PM
I lived in Portugal for a while also and didn't speak a lick of it. The Portuguese were nothing but pleased and helpful when I tried to learn.

S.V. Airlie
01-30-2011, 12:43 PM
ithought one cosmopolitan student who spoke seven languages. It was almost as if English was her primary language but wow..it wasn't though.. I was extremely impressed with her language abilities

S.V. Airlie
01-30-2011, 12:45 PM
I lived in Portugal for a while also and didn't speak a lick of it. The Portuguese were nothing but pleased and helpful when I tried to learn.

Except for Parisans, I agree with you Dave. If someone tries, anyone, to learn a language not his own, I think...no I know, they are usually more than pleased to help...But the key is TRY. Usually, in fact, the people bent over backwards to help.

S.V. Airlie
01-30-2011, 01:00 PM
Norman I think your first sentence is one key to this.."a need to". I agree with that wholeheartedly..Regarding the second paragraph, I think that is seems a little idealistic. Teaching a language should help the future generations to assimilate but teaching the language is one thing. Putting as example recordings on say the telephone just enables some not to try as they do not have to...

I remember bicycling through Denmark one summer. Went to a small shop..kind of a "mom and pop" deal. Now I loved the yogurt in Denmark..came in well quart containers..actually liter containers. I had to go by the pictures..as I really had no idea what the containers contained and really had little knowledge of the language as I was basically passing through.. Went through the isles, saw a picture on one container that looked ummm, great! Bought it... I think may be for five Kroner..Not much.. I went down the street and opened it up..Well my tastebuds were expecting one thing and I got something completely different..Yuck! Buttermilk and lemon juice.. I drank it but I never forgot what it was. Learned to pick it out of the isles, memorized what it was named and never bought it again..Even went back to the store and asked the elderly guy how to pronounce it...

David W Pratt
01-30-2011, 01:45 PM
No it will not. "Race" has always been a proxy for socioeconomic level.
Yes, there are some genetic biases based on where your ancestors evolved, eg hypertension among blacks, skin cancer among us whities.

SMARTINSEN
01-30-2011, 02:31 PM
I think that one of the greatest failings of the public education system in the U.S. is neglect of foreign language skills. We should all be fluent in two or three or even more foreign languages. And Latin, too. I was in the primary grades in the 1960's, and back then, there was still a senseless fear of learning German. We could all communicate better if we had a better grasp of different languages. The more that you are fluent in, the easier it becomes to learn even more. How hard would it be to learn Portuguese if you already knew Spanish? Or Chinese if you already knew Japanese? It almost seems that we are intentionally promoting a Tower of Babel mentality.


George's point is very important. For most of the history of the US, racial distinctions (whites / everybody else) were a defining part of our culture. That seems to be starting to fade away. With luck, we may end up with attitudes more like Brazilians. I think this is a Very Good Thing.
Current demographic trends do not favor the prototypical WASP . And I would agree that our country can become more vibrant and ultimately more successful as a result.

S.V. Airlie
01-30-2011, 03:17 PM
Smart..It's getting to the point where English is often a foreign language for those in Highschool regardless of where the students are from..many of our youth would rather spend time in front a screen..forget books. I wish it was not the case but...Obviously not true for all but..Then again, TV etc. was a novel item..not many channels etc. Books were what kids of that 50yr old ( and older) generation had available...

JBreeze
01-30-2011, 04:00 PM
As the mixing pot swirls, will tensions simply vanish?


Perhaps they could try this in the Middle East....maybe Israel? I think it has a good mix of Arabs and others.

Tom Montgomery
01-30-2011, 04:49 PM
Teaching a language should help the future generations to assimilate but teaching the language is one thing. Putting as example recordings on say the telephone just enables some not to try as they do not have to...


So your argument is with American business.

rbgarr
01-30-2011, 04:49 PM
A radio interview of adopted Salvadoreans this afternoon revealed some interesting experiences. An example: one woman was adopted into the US as a child and knew that her mother was white but did not know anything about her father. As she's grown she finds that when asked 'what she is' some people become annoyed when her answer is "I don't know." She finds that the need to categorize is one that some need to fulfil to be comfortable.

S.V. Airlie
01-30-2011, 04:59 PM
So your argument is with American business. Dave..someone else did onthis thread..I just carried if further down the trail

Keith Wilson
01-30-2011, 05:03 PM
What in the world are you complaining about? Most people in the US speak English. Nobody can get better than a pretty menial low-paid job in the US without being reasonably proficient in English. Immigrants today learn English on average faster than previous generations of immigrants. Nobody is forced to put "press *16 for Somali" on their phone system if they don't want to. Why do you care in the slightest if businesses or institutions want to make it easier for those who speak other languages? What harm does it do you? As far as I can tell, there's no other reason to make this an issue other than pure mean-spiritedness. Press 1 for English like the rest of us, and quitcherbitchin.

S.V. Airlie
01-30-2011, 05:06 PM
If you say so Keith..There is no sense in arguing with you...Hell not even worth a discussion...

rbgarr
01-30-2011, 05:09 PM
Dave..someone else did onthis thread..I just carried if further down the trail

??? Is that comment for me?

S.V. Airlie
01-30-2011, 05:16 PM
Not that I know of... You were asking whether the systems which recorded spanish were economically determined.. I stated that someone brought that up..Might have been Kieth..anyway, I carried the concept along...

Keith Wilson
01-30-2011, 05:22 PM
Of course it's economic. Businesses want to attract customers. Making the phone system easy for those who speak Spanish makes excellent sense if it's not too expensive. Give the people what they want and they'll buy from you, right?. It's no different from having convenient parking, clean restrooms, or a well-organized store.

Dan McCosh
01-30-2011, 06:17 PM
FWIW, While Jewish, Polish and Arabic neighborhoods in Detroit often have (or had) store signs in the local language, Mexican and Greek neighborhoods are in English.

Old Dryfoot
01-30-2011, 06:41 PM
This whole thing smacks of the attitude that "if it ain't white, it ain't right"... sad and just more then a little disgusting in my view. I wonder if the first nations elders had similar discussions all those years ago about the immigration of Europeans?

Dan McCosh
01-30-2011, 06:47 PM
This whole thing smacks of the attitude that "if it ain't white, it ain't right"... sad and just more then a little disgusting in my view. I wonder if the first nations elders had similar discussions all those years ago about the immigration of Europeans?

They not only had such discussions, these resulted in efforts such as ritual sacrifice of the Europeans, tearing their hearts out. That did not seem to deter the Europeans long, however.

johnw
01-30-2011, 07:01 PM
Not to get on-topic or anything, but Toynbee said at least half a century ago that the solution to America's race problem was intermarriage. I expect he was right.

One thing that will help overcome the stigma of race is that we now allow Africans to immigrate. For a long time, that wasn't the case, so all the Blacks in America were "involuntary" immigrants. Following the reforms of 1965, immigration changed from 60% European to 15% European. It's caused a lot more friction with nativists, and the reforms brought in by George H.W. Bush in 1990 increased immigration by 40%, but I think our ability to incorporate immigrants into our culture is a source of renewal.

paladin
01-30-2011, 10:40 PM
My language skills are poor these days, but just yesterday there was a heavy discussion like this at the dialysis clinic. I stopped for donuts on the way in. The young lady at the window seemed a bit scared and she was speaking a Ukraine dialect (modified Russian) but a dialect more closely related to Romanian. Instead of using the drive thru, I now go inside and have coffee, arrive a few minutes early for some chit chat time.
I do the same at a couple of shops where Thai/Tagalog/and Vietnamese is spoken.

S.V. Airlie
01-31-2011, 07:57 AM
It is not about race..You can make it about race if ou want..but it isn't it is aout language..

ou know I loived through part of the could war..Each side had enough bombs to blow the other side up.. The USSR was comprised of X countries in the federation..I sometimes think the biggest deterrent to going to wa against the US was the language. US basically used one..English...and communication between the military branches was easier. The Russian military had to communicate in a wide variety of languages which were led to perhaps confusion in the ranks so to speak
I now see communication conflicts in law enforcement, (police, fire, lawyers), in medicine, (Hospitals, and ERs) military and throughout society.. It is logical to have a common language to communicate in to minimize any con-
fusion. It just makes sense. I don't really care what language it is..I think as English is still the most widely accepted still it should be English.

Flying Orca
01-31-2011, 08:42 AM
"I agree, and I think it would be great if you Americans went back to speaking English."

(Sorry Jamie, but what I can glean of your position is untenable.)

marshcat
01-31-2011, 09:31 AM
Maybe it's not just the next generation that will help tensions vanish. See this article:

For Mr. Bronson, a neighbor's kind act led to a new family (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/01/29/AR2011012903305.html?hpid=dynamiclead)

From the article:

"They lived across the street from each other for years, though they didn't know each other well... Not the likeliest of roommates. But when Mr. Bronson - and he is always Mr. Bronson - lost his home in 1996 and had nowhere to go, O'Leary offered to take him in rent-free. It was a split-second decision that would profoundly change both their lives."

Tom Montgomery
01-31-2011, 10:00 AM
It is not about race..You can make it about race if ou want..but it isn't it is aout language..

I don't think for a moment that you are expressing any racism, Jamie. Xenophobia? Yes. Racism? No.

S.V. Airlie
01-31-2011, 10:06 AM
Tom..Did the argument make any sense? I have no difficulty with anyone who can speak 2 or more languages but I can also see communication issues..even say at a doctor's office or a policeman's response, even at a traffic stop, could lead to conflict..If that is xenophobia, so be it. If I werea doc who misdiagnosed someone's illness due to a lack in understanding the symtoms..oh boy..and translations are not nec. accurate

Dan McCosh
01-31-2011, 10:26 AM
This thread started talking about "race", referring to an article that mixed religion, culture, and "race" in a kind of haphazard way. Now we add in language--yet another twist on the notion of mixed marriages. I've always been attracted to foreign accents, which is why I married a Jersey Girl.

skuthorp
02-01-2011, 07:14 AM
"Historians Agree: Spanish was Language of Choice at First Thanksgiving."
http://www.latinalista.net/palabrafinal/2007/11/historians_agree_spanish_was_language_of.html

Andrew Craig-Bennett
02-01-2011, 07:47 AM
Well I have done my bit for miscegenation, and I'd recommend it to anyone!

S.V. Airlie
02-01-2011, 07:48 AM
"I agree, and I think it would be great if you Americans went back to speaking English."

(Sorry Jamie, but what I can glean of your position is untenable.) I know it is!

ChaseKenyon
02-01-2011, 09:04 AM
Jamie, on your logic you should have learned a First Peoples language, and be feeling grateful if the shops offer English as an alternative.

yes YES YES!!!

I'll be easy on you Jaime, all you have to do is learn two Iroquoian languages say Mohawk and Cherokee, or as I say Tsalagi and Akwasausne. Kinda like learning two romance languages like Italian and Catalan.

However even as two forms of Iroquoian root languages, they have as much similarity as Vedic and Sumerian.

You are in mine and my ancestors land and have taken it not by rightful conquest as claimed by the white textbooks, but by lies to our honesty over and over. Even to not even keeping and honoring one single treaty. Treaties are laid out in the constitution as above Congress, and the executive and even above the Supreme court.

Even George Washington violated a treaty he himself negotiated and signed with the Iroquois Confederacy when he as president sent the army in to rid NY state of all Iroquois by the slaughter of families, wives women and children and elderly they found in the villages and using Georges detailed instructions on the use of a scorched earth policy of burning all the villagesand the slaughtered helpless and then the crops to keep my direct ancestors from coming back to their homeland and farms and crops..

THis was to pay off his personal debts and officers back pay by giving them the Iroquois land that was already productive farm land. Land that the Iroquois used to provide over 80% of the food to sustain the continental army.

What president Andrew Jackson did was even worse. The Aniyunwiya, helped him and wre the telling force to help him win the Mexican war. He tried to do a George thing on the Aniyunwiya (Cherokee) and they took it to the Supreme Court of the USA. The court ruled in the Aniyunwiya favor and said the land and all its plantations and farms most in third and fourth generation hands (the well proven most productive farms and plantations in the entire north american continent) could not be taken.

Jackson said Fu** or ***, The supreme court does not have an army , I do.:mad:

Then came the trail of tears.:pmad::pmad:

So when are you gong to chuck the fairy godmother textbooks and false history of the USA and learn the real truth. Chuck and I can get you a good start on learning our history and some of our language any time you'd like.;)

EnisiWayaDekanogi

S.V. Airlie
02-01-2011, 09:12 AM
Chase.If I lived say among the Mohawks I would try..make an effort, to learn their language. And you say whites took your land..yes we did...true...no argument. Of course people have lived in this country for what 12,000 years.(the bridge) .Are Mohawks the first or the second or even the third tribe to exist here? Could it be possible that some other tribe or race or group lived here before the Mohawks etc.

S.V. Airlie
02-01-2011, 09:18 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beringia

johnw
02-01-2011, 01:39 PM
This thread started talking about "race", referring to an article that mixed religion, culture, and "race" in a kind of haphazard way. Now we add in language--yet another twist on the notion of mixed marriages. I've always been attracted to foreign accents, which is why I married a Jersey Girl.
Race itself is kind of an interesting issue. Visible genetic difference seems to be neither necessary nor sufficient for racism; look at all the Jews who hid in plain sight during the Holocaust by having the right papers. Race is about social difference. In linguistic terms, such visible differences as skin color are signs, the underlying attitudes about social difference are what is signified. There may be controversy about the traits people claim differ between races, such as athletic ability, intelligence and personality, but it's blindingly obvious that there is more variation between people of a given race than there is between the average person of one race and the average person of another race on any of these traits.

Race mixing is a sign that we're getting past this, and people of mixed race also help people get past it, by mixing the signs.

As for language, I don't know why that's even on the radar. Adults have always had trouble learning a new language, which is why we had Yiddish newspapers and radio programs at one time, and why we have them in Spanish now. The young learn the language of the new land and of the old, and their children might learn only the language of the new land, or might learn to communicate in the old language if it's needed in their community. The pattern is so well established, it shouldn't even be controversial.

Keith Wilson
02-01-2011, 08:59 PM
What president Andrew Jackson did was even worse. The Aniyunwiya, helped him and wre the telling force to help him win the Mexican war. Eh? Jackson was elected in 1828 (two terms), and died in 1845. The US-Mexican war was 1846-1848. (Not defending his Indian polices at all; they were atrocious.)

Immigrants today generally learn English faster than previous generations of immigrants. The only reason to rant about "Learn English!", as far as I can tell, is unacknowledged opposition to immigration in general, or perhaps just plain meanness.

paladin
02-01-2011, 10:52 PM
Re: As the mixing pot swirls, will tensions simply vanish?
This thread started talking about "race", referring to an article that mixed religion, culture, and "race" in a kind of haphazard way. Now we add in language--yet another twist on the notion of mixed marriages. I've always been attracted to foreign accents, which is why I married a Jersey Girl.

Oh you poor misguided soul......

Andrew Craig-Bennett
02-02-2011, 06:32 AM
Race itself is kind of an interesting issue. Visible genetic difference seems to be neither necessary nor sufficient for racism; look at all the Jews who hid in plain sight during the Holocaust by having the right papers. Race is about social difference. In linguistic terms, such visible differences as skin color are signs, the underlying attitudes about social difference are what is signified. There may be controversy about the traits people claim differ between races, such as athletic ability, intelligence and personality, but it's blindingly obvious that there is more variation between people of a given race than there is between the average person of one race and the average person of another race on any of these traits.

Race mixing is a sign that we're getting past this, and people of mixed race also help people get past it, by mixing the signs.

As for language, I don't know why that's even on the radar. Adults have always had trouble learning a new language, which is why we had Yiddish newspapers and radio programs at one time, and why we have them in Spanish now. The young learn the language of the new land and of the old, and their children might learn only the language of the new land, or might learn to communicate in the old language if it's needed in their community. The pattern is so well established, it shouldn't even be controversial.

John makes two very good points, there. I had thought that the concern with accent and behaviour overriding skin colour was a typically British thing - that we are much more interested in social class than in race - but John puts it more generally.

Back in the Old Stone Age of race relations in this country, during WW2, there were many US servicemen posted to the UK. In general, black GIs were more popular with the natives than white GIs, "because they had such beautiful manners". The thought occurs to me now that, for a young black GI, having beautiful manners might have been a matter of life and death, but at all events such was the case and a significant number of coffee coloured Englishmen were born around 1945. During those years the West Indian cricketer Learie Constantine and his wife were refused a room, which they had booked, at the Russell Square Hotel, because US officers billeted there objected to their presence. This was a bad call because Constantine was not a mere sports jock; he was a lawyer, and he sued and won. When he died as Lord Constantine QC he was the prototype of many subsequent West Indians who made it to the top aided by a pukka accent and manners. Sir Trevor MacDonald, for instance, is a Living National Treasure and Lenny Henry is not far behind. The thing signified is superior social status and the British public respond accordingly.

Dan McCosh
02-02-2011, 12:31 PM
John makes two very good points, there. I had thought that the concern with accent and behaviour overriding skin colour was a typically British thing - that we are much more interested in social class than in race - but John puts it more generally.

Back in the Old Stone Age of race relations in this country, during WW2, there were many US servicemen posted to the UK. In general, black GIs were more popular with the natives than white GIs, "because they had such beautiful manners". The thought occurs to me now that, for a young black GI, having beautiful manners might have been a matter of life and death, but at all events such was the case and a significant number of coffee coloured Englishmen were born around 1945. During those years the West Indian cricketer Learie Constantine and his wife were refused a room, which they had booked, at the Russell Square Hotel, because US officers billeted there objected to their presence. This was a bad call because Constantine was not a mere sports jock; he was a lawyer, and he sued and won. When he died as Lord Constantine QC he was the prototype of many subsequent West Indians who made it to the top aided by a pukka accent and manners. Sir Trevor MacDonald, for instance, is a Living National Treasure and Lenny Henry is not far behind. The thing signified is superior social status and the British public respond accordingly. Did you ever think about writing a play about how a lower-class English person learns to speak good, and gets ahead?

leikec
02-02-2011, 03:56 PM
You can find plenty of examples in America to satisfy almost any preconceived notion about race relations, and racial assimilation in particular....


I ended my second career working in Dearborn and Detroit, Michigan from 2004-2007. Take a walk in east Dearborn (Warren road near Schaefer would be a good place), and you can find examples of the Arab neighborhoods (long-standing Arab neighborhoods--existing in the Detroit area since before 1900) assimilating into the greater community side-by-side with areas that would be indisinguishable from waking up and finding yourself standing on a slightly dodgy street in Beirut on an especially lousy day.

Jeff C

Andrew Craig-Bennett
02-02-2011, 04:25 PM
Did you ever think about writing a play about how a lower-class English person learns to speak good, and gets ahead?

Afraid George Bernard Shaw got there ahead of me, closely followed by Lerner and Lowe! ;)

TomF
02-02-2011, 04:36 PM
What George and Keith are saying seems true of my kids' friends too; they're absolutely colourblind. There's so little emphasis on race in their crowd as to make it a pretty unrecognizable topic. But not, apparently, for all.

My older son is applying to Universities for next Fall. While he'll probably just go to the one here in Fredericton for his B.Sc., he's scoping things out a bit (he likes being courted:)). And as he was filling out scholarship applications the other day, Chris mentioned to me that some people he knows are applying to American Universities rather than Canadian ones. They think they'll have an easier time getting big scholarships there ...

... because some of the American schools are capping the number of (foreign) Asian students they accept. And since Canada's Universities aren't doing that, we're getting quite an influx of such students here. Their work ethic is legendary, and probably only the brightest of them consider studying overseas anyhow ... so the level of competition for big scholarships is getting steeper here.

From Chris' perspective, that's all good. His University experience will be that much better, surrounded by very bright and motivated people. Their marks don't intimidate him much ... he got back his 1st term grade 12 exams today, and his lowest mark among Chemistry, Trig, and Calculus was 94%. Besides, his current girlfriend is 2nd generation Chinese ...

johnw
02-02-2011, 05:22 PM
I'd not heard that, Tom. I'm in the U district in Seattle, and to judge from the students who come in my store, there must be no limit on the number of Asians. I think some of them have supplanted middle eastern students, who are finding it harder to get visas. Foreign students pay higher tuition than locals, which in the current climate probably makes them especially attractive to the University of Washington.

I wonder what universities are limiting Asian applicants?

TomF
02-02-2011, 05:27 PM
If we're lucky, it is only urban legend among a bunch of Canadian grade 12 students. Chris wasn't specific; I'll ask him.

Dan McCosh
02-02-2011, 05:31 PM
Afraid George Bernard Shaw got there ahead of me, closely followed by Lerner and Lowe! ;) Shucks, and I was already working on the lyrics.

Keith Wilson
02-02-2011, 07:50 PM
I wouldn't be at all surprised if US universities, particularly State universities, have caps on the number of foreign students, irrespective of where they come from. US taxpayer supported, after all.

Waddie
02-03-2011, 06:51 AM
will tensions simply vanish?........read Animal Farm.

regards,
Waddie