PDA

View Full Version : Settle an argument, this is an easy one . . . *sigh*



McMike
01-25-2011, 04:25 PM
My wife caught my oldest (15) sticking a knife in the toaster in order to dislodge a piece of toast while the appliance was still plugged in. Ya, this is the one who gets straight A's in advanced placement courses. Now, we have taught our boys better than that but it seems he has decided to rebel against our better experience and on top of that he has decided that it wasn't such a bad idea because he could simply restart his heart by re-shocking himself. Of course I told him he would be unconscious on the floor foaming at the mouth with smoke coming out his eyeballs and therefore be quite unable to re-administer a heart starting shock. The debate got to the point that I told him I would pose this to the Doctors on the forum so he could have a professional opinion about his utterly ridiculous argument.

Here is his question/argument in his own words:


Okay, so a toaster has an average amperage of 15-20a, plenty more than the .1a minimum requirement. If you stick a knife in the toaster, (assuming the current passes though the heart on its way to the ground) I believe it would stop your heart. The pacemaker in our heart, however, can stop with an electric charge, and start with an electric charge. IF your heart was stopped by sticking a knife in the toaster, could you restart your heart by having someone do it again?

erster
01-25-2011, 04:30 PM
First thing you yourself need to do is to take an electrical meter and do a test on the glowing elements and see how much electricity on on them. You may be surprised of what you learn.[Oh I am not a doctor]

skuthorp
01-25-2011, 04:32 PM
First thing you yourself need to do is to take an electrical meter and do a test on the glowing elements and see how much electricity on on them. You may be surprised of what you learn.

That's way too logical for anyone who'd do it in the first place erster.

Peerie Maa
01-25-2011, 04:33 PM
Its a long time since I did electricery at school, but I think that the way a potentiometer works may also be relevant here?

McMike
01-25-2011, 04:34 PM
First thing you yourself need to do is to take an electrical meter and do a test on the glowing elements and see how much electricity on on them. You may be surprised of what you learn.[Oh I am not a doctor]

Not having the balls to play with electricity, what would I find if I did?

McMike
01-25-2011, 04:41 PM
That's way too logical for anyone who'd do it in the first place erster.

Not that logical for someone who's not all that confident in how it works.

Ian McColgin
01-25-2011, 04:42 PM
There are ways to shock one self and even kill with a metal object in a toaster, but it's hard for the same reason that it's hard to shock yourself by putting your hand on the element of an electric stove you just turned on - cool before it burns you. So long as the element is intack, the electicity will flow through it, not the much higher resistance of a person -- absent any truely and remarkably efficient path to ground through the body. One might also break the circut in the toaster leaving the body as the best circut to ground. The biggest safety is that it's hard to fool about in there without having the tool hand also grounded to the toaster, so even if you manage a shock, it will stay in the hand.

It's like electricians (don't try this at home) who check a socket for juice by licking a finger and sticking it in, making sure that the finger maintains contact with the socket threads while slid in before it hits the center node at the bottom. Just a finger tickle then and even if you spaz, you'll pull free.

AC can be incredibly hazardous. A friend got a near fatal shock that left him with no short term memory - been handicapped by that for a decade now - drilling into a wall and hitting an electric conduit. Another friend was killed by an incorrectly hooked up generator.

The 60 cycles seems to have something to do with the hazard, which is why a second shock with AC will not fix the problem. If you don't have a defib, stick to closed chest compressions.

So the long and sort of it, unplug the dumb thing.

James McMullen
01-25-2011, 04:53 PM
Even if it doesn't kill you, who thinks electric shocks are fun? Only a fool or a clueless fifteen year old would risk one under any circumstance when it could be avoided so easily. Now make him go shovel the walk or something to build some character.

Dr. Arthur Trollingson
01-25-2011, 05:16 PM
When I was volunteering in a Nicaraguan free clinic, we didn't have much for equipment or supplies. There was no defibrillator, so when people went into cardiac arrest they would die. Well, that all ended when I got there. I got the toaster out of the break room, re-wired it to a couple of balls of steel-wool, and presto, we had a defibrillator. Deaths by cardiac arrest dropped by 50% from that day forward.

So I can confirm, from firsthand experience, that yes, a toaster can re-start a human heart.

BarnacleGrim
01-25-2011, 05:17 PM
And unlike what the medical TV shows tell you, the defibrillator doesn't actually start the heart, it just stops it from fibrillating. You still need CPR to maintain circulation and adrenaline to restart the heart.

More and more public places are getting automatic defibrillators. They are easy to hook up, give you voice instructions, and when the machine detects V-fib you press the button and it administers the chock.

Ian McColgin
01-25-2011, 05:19 PM
Thank you doctor. I always thought AC was not good for defib, but I've never had the use of one or training so what do I know. I don't think that I'll MacIver the deal myself but good to know.

Dr. Arthur Trollingson
01-25-2011, 05:24 PM
Thank you doctor. I always thought AC was not good for defib, but I've never had the use of one or training so what do I know. I don't think that I'll MacIver the deal myself but good to know.

Some of the success can probably be chalked up to having passed out drunks misdiagnosed as heart attack victims. A good jolt would wake those guys right up!

I should also mention, I'm a scientist, not an MD. The toaster/defibrillator was purely an experimental invention. Please don't try making your own at home unless you're supervised by a trained monkey/scientist, or better yet, an MD.

htom
01-25-2011, 05:29 PM
Not a doctor, but have (or used to have) a pile of licenses from Uncle Sam that allowed me to work on all manner of electronic devices. Don't do that. The risk may be small but the consequences of losing the bet are huge, the price of not playing is trivial. It's a very bad bet. Don't do that. Do you, kid, really want to be known as the idiot who stuck a knife in a toaster and managed to kill himself? No? Don't do that. Use wooden tongs or chopsticks. The life or reputation you save may be your own.

There are people who still call me "=====" to my face because ... it's too embarrassing. I knew better, then, too; had gotten away with it several times, in fact. I was good. I understood. One afternoon, in a hurry, I reached and

:blinding light and deafening sound:

I couldn't see or hear anything for about ten minutes. No one else in the room, or in the next room, could, either. It's been fifty years, they still won't let me forget it. They shouldn't.

McMike
01-25-2011, 05:29 PM
I think he's been sufficiently corrected, thanks guys.;)Y>

bobbys
01-25-2011, 05:31 PM
Dunno know about the Electricity part but i do know that after raising 2 sons ,15 years old is the age when they have temporarily lost their minds..

Never assume they understand Gravity, Electricity, gas pedals,, Girls,Basic Mathematics, Time, space , Currency, Morn, night between 13 and 18

Hwyl
01-25-2011, 05:40 PM
110 is for wimps

Hwyl
01-25-2011, 05:50 PM
I've worked at an Aluminium smelter, the ultimate in low voltage high current, except the pots were in series.

Ed Harrow
01-25-2011, 06:01 PM
I always use a fork.

Once upon a time there was a 'locked' elevator. I needed to get to the second floor, but I couldn't because my keys were there... I couldn't go home because my keys were there... See where this is going?

Ed Harrow
01-25-2011, 06:05 PM
110 is for wimps

Heh, heh. Ever worked around an ion implanter or particle accelerator. :eek:

seanz
01-25-2011, 06:08 PM
A proper kitchen should always have an insulated screwdriver to aid in toast extraction.......

BarnacleGrim
01-25-2011, 06:15 PM
Thank you doctor. I always thought AC was not good for defib, but I've never had the use of one or training so what do I know. I don't think that I'll MacIver the deal myself but good to know.
A real doctor would know all the details, that's just what I've been taught in Basic Safety class.

According to Wikipedia AC was first used in experimental machines. Mains frequency stepped up to 300-1000 V. It did a lot more harm than good.

Dr. Arthur Trollingson
01-25-2011, 06:21 PM
Oh, I should clear up the AC problem with the toaster/defibrillator; I used a two-slice toaster, and it was operated by toggling the two handles really fast.

Hope that helps.

B_B
01-25-2011, 06:29 PM
Someone should start a "Favorite Electrical Shocks" thread. I'd be [sic] we have some doozies in this population.
Schoolmarm, you're slipping! Twice in two days...tut,tut. ;)

And should such a thread be created, I'll contribute a couple.

LeeG
01-25-2011, 06:46 PM
house rules, no metal objects into live toaster. His argument is ridiculous but so is your scenario. Next time have him experiment out in the garage barefoot on the concrete floor.

Michael D. Storey
01-25-2011, 07:01 PM
If a toaster is off, the opportunity for a shock is only if there is access to the switch, which is not how toasters are designed. (No, I have not peered into every toaster design in the known world). Also, it is my experience that unless you have a bath tub in your kitchen or an old pacemaker, the opportunity for damage to oneself is tiny. Meaning, it is unlikely that the toaster is near enough to a good enough ground for a big jolt. The deal is that the power has to pass through you. If the other end is insulated, or poorly grounded, even, the jolt is minimal. It may serve as the best lesson of all, that being experience.

John Smith
01-25-2011, 07:08 PM
Better get him a wind up toaster.

McMike
01-25-2011, 07:18 PM
house rules, no metal objects into live toaster. His argument is ridiculous but so is your scenario. Next time have him experiment out in the garage barefoot on the concrete floor.

My scenario? . . . He presented the scenaro.

McMike
01-25-2011, 07:20 PM
Better get him a wind up toaster.

I know.

He's been reading the responses and walked away saying, "you're right I'm wrong, I don't wanna talk about it any more" . . .



I think he got the point.

Paul Pless
01-25-2011, 07:36 PM
Someone should start a "Favorite Electrical Shocks" thread. I'd be we have some doozies in this population.> :D

KM Bever
01-25-2011, 09:08 PM
My wife caught my oldest (15) sticking a knife in the toaster in order to dislodge a piece of toast while the appliance was still plugged in. Ya, this is the one who gets straight A's in advanced placement courses. Now, we have taught our boys better than that but it seems he has decided to rebel against our better experience and on top of that he has decided that it wasn't such a bad idea because he could simply restart his heart by re-shocking himself. Of course I told him he would be unconscious on the floor foaming at the mouth with smoke coming out his eyeballs and therefore be quite unable to re-administer a heart starting shock. The debate got to the point that I told him I would pose this to the Doctors on the forum so he could have a professional opinion about his utterly ridiculous argument.

Here is his question/argument in his own words:



My son has some of the genes, I've told him that next time he is stupid, I want to video it. So he can get on you tube for posterity and his only 15 mins of fame.

The Bigfella
01-25-2011, 09:21 PM
I read somewhere that the majority of "drowning" deaths near marinas are due to minor electrical shocks from current leakage in faulty wiring.

I'm hoping this one won't get me Scotted... if it does, just google up electric shock injuries and check out the images.

http://www.pritzkerlaw.com/images_08/ItemImages/fires-burns-explosions/electric-burn-hand.jpg

pumpkin
01-25-2011, 09:44 PM
All kinds of theory and conjecture here but not one mention of ohms law, a bird sitting on a wire etc. How about the guys who play with live wires from a helicopter?

I think the shock received is related directly to the surface a person is on, the footwear worn, humidity etc. Mostly whether a person is grounded which is different than standing on the ground.

Volts don’t kill, amps do and even though a toaster may draw 15 amps, that 15 amp circuit has thousands of amps available to it. The circuit breaker or fuse is just a circuit protection device, not an amp limiter.

Household electrocutions are rare compared to household shocks. More shocks would be fatal if the person was better grounded; wet concrete floor, touching grounded plumbing, etc. The human body is a poor conductor. Heck so is the cat that chewed the cord to my TV. Didn't kill him damn it.

Using a toaster as a defibrillator is just stupid.

Matthew

paladin
01-25-2011, 11:28 PM
110-24- buncha wimps......I used 75,000 volts on the accelerator anodes on the big troposcatter triodes. I would walk in the cage and lay a monster crescent wrench across the pair of copper pipes running from the power section to the RF section.....lotta folks forgot. It was a low current situation, but twice around1977-78-79 I've been there when guys were screaming bloody murder and trying to tear the system apart to get outside the cans,

Chip-skiff
01-25-2011, 11:35 PM
Buy some wooden toaster tongs. Then there's no need to stick a metal knife in.

L.W. Baxter
01-25-2011, 11:57 PM
Flip toaster upside down and bang on counter until toast come out.

bobbys
01-25-2011, 11:58 PM
I was working as a pilebuck on a bridge when my buddy was holding a tagline attached to pilings being swung by a crane, He directed the crane into high line wires and he was electrocuted.

The crane swung back and i jumped into the water to hold his head above the water.

As i held his head i thought i was in mud but i was holding his brains..

The burns went through his body exploding out all over.

I was 2 steps from getting it.

When it happened i was looking down the highway at the exploding transformers not at what was happening 4 feet away.

L.W. Baxter
01-26-2011, 12:02 AM
jeez bobbys, that's terrible. Sorry to hear it.

LeeG
01-26-2011, 04:02 AM
McMike, here's a TED Talks video your son will get a kick out of.

Bobbys, whew, that's rough.


http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/thomas_thwaites_how_i_built_a_toaster_from_scratch .html

Phil Y
01-26-2011, 04:36 AM
I'm wondering how you use a knife in a taoster to defrib the guy on the floor without toasting yourself in the process. Seems highly impractical:)

BarnacleGrim
01-26-2011, 05:35 AM
It sounds like a lot of you guys need to have residual current device/ground fault interrupters installed.

Wild Dingo
01-26-2011, 07:34 AM
Just my thoughts Gareth!!!
240 volts or go home! Gonna zap yerself go out with a bloody bang I say

The kids an idiot okay?... take the knife of him and jam it in his arm to wake him up "think that hurts? well you wont feel much if you do that again sunshine and I aint gonna shove the bloody thing in the toaster to defib yer either!" tough love... boys understand tough love :D Boys are easy

Now dopey dumb girls? whole other matter!!! damn but they can be soooooooo dumb sometimes!! and as a father of 6 of those critters I KNOW!!! :D

Totally agree on the age thing... only I go further I banned the girls turning 17 totally banned it!!! their year to turn 17 come around Id just say nope your 16 and a half and you'll turn 18 next year now eat yer cake blow out yer candle and dont forget the half one kidlet!! the boys? mmmm 14 15 16 17 and 18 are dread times I think... seems they loose all sanity for those years... mmm thinking about that Aaron turns 24 in a weeks time and Josh turns 16 in three weeks time... mmmm whew Im safe!!! Only Aaron here with me soooo whahooo!!! :D

One of the things that shocked me up there was your power is always hot!!! no switch just plug in and your right to go???? MAD yer buggars!!!

BUT!!!! Dont do it... especially down here with 240 tuff Aussie volts zappin yer!!! uhuh no way thats what wooden chopsticks is for dopey :cool: Asians real handy inventive types them mob :D

David W Pratt
01-26-2011, 09:46 AM
Amazingly, toasters don't seem to kill people. I'm sure almost everyone has gotten a shock from one.

Waterrat
01-26-2011, 10:00 AM
Bring him to an electric fence and grab ahold of fence while with your other hand on your sons shoulder. Make sure your hand is on your son's shoulder first. Tell him that is nothing compared to the shock from a toaster. It will stick with him for a little while. I have been shocked by my electric fence way too many times. It might be a safe way to give him a little respect for excited electrons.

cs
01-26-2011, 12:18 PM
And just who uses a knife to get stuck toast out of a toaster. I use a hammer.

Chad