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MickG
01-24-2011, 09:52 AM
In the WB mag,#90, there was an article covering"double paddle canoes". Among other designs, there was a mention of a GlennL desighn called Rob Roy. Does anyone have any knowledge of this "boat" or any other double paddle canoe. It apears that the term refers to an open, undecked kayak like vessal. They seem to be somewhat wider than a kayak and use a double bladed paddel. Thank you.

Thorne
01-24-2011, 09:54 AM
Google is your friend. Lots of different canoes in this general style, some decked, some sailing, designs from the 1800's to now.

The answer to your question is "Yes". If you want general info on canoes, our kind hosts have many books for sale. If you care to refine your question, we'll try to answer it.

http://intheboatshed.net/2008/12/05/a-new-edition-of-practical-boat-building-for-amateurs-from-ken-hanson/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_MacGregor_%28sportsman%29

James McMullen
01-24-2011, 09:59 AM
They are delightful boats in their way. Smaller and lighter and easier to get in and out of than a typical kayak, but of course restricted to protected conditions. I've built seven of 'em to date. Very accessable and inexpensive.
This one is a CLC Sassafrass 12. Even Emma seemed to like it, once she got used to it.

http://inlinethumb03.webshots.com/41922/2307389690088484686S600x600Q85.jpg (http://sports.webshots.com/photo/2307389690088484686TbnIqf)

Ian McColgin
01-24-2011, 10:10 AM
The article tells you quite a lot. The cruising double paddles are usually decked while the lighter day/recreational canoes are not. Both are finer than higher sided single paddle canoes but not so fine and "worn" more than sat-in as fully-decked kayak as evolved from the Arctic peoples and adapted to white water.

One nice thing about the Glen-L shown (I think) is it's resemblence to the lovely Culler model shown on the next page. It was one of quite a few variations that Capt. Pete developed and Mr. Kelly made several I got to try. For a shorter double paddle, it's one of my all time all around favorites. Get hold (interlibrary loan?) of Capt Burke's first "Pete Culler's Boats". The whole first section is various double paddle and bateau thingies with interestingly different capacities for different waters and different purposes. It's a huge education just gazing at those pages.

G'luck

JimConlin
01-24-2011, 10:20 AM
A lot of these boats have been built in cedar strip composite. Mac McCarthy (http://www.feathercanoes.com/html/About_Feather_Canoes.html)'s Wee Lassie is a 'standard'.
http://www.feathercanoes.com/homepage%20images/wee_lassie.jpg

Tom Hill developed some techniques for building small glued lapstrake boats. The book is Ultralight Boatbuilding (http://www.woodenboatstore.com/Ultralight-Boatbuilding/productinfo/300-210/). Here's an example.
http://golfcoursehome.typepad.com/.a/6a00e54f072fc3883401348031cfaf970c-800wi

CundysHarbor
01-24-2011, 10:30 AM
L.F. Herreshoff designed a 16 foot double paddle canoe in the 1930's that is decked. I built one using plywood rather than the original solid wood design. Dory construction. I believe that Joel White also updated the LFH design to plywood. I have enjoyed the boat in all kinds of conditions although she has to be treated carefully around rocky beaches.
Dave

Roger Long
01-24-2011, 11:06 AM
L.F. Herreshoff designed a 16 foot double paddle canoe in the 1930's that is decked. I built one using plywood rather than the original solid wood design.

Like this?

http://www.rogerlongboats.com/Boats.htm#Canoe

http://www.rogerlongboats.com/images/DPcanoe.jpg

Cuyahoga Chuck
01-24-2011, 11:39 AM
In the WB mag,#90, there was an article covering"double paddle canoes". Among other designs, there was a mention of a GlennL desighn called Rob Roy. Does anyone have any knowledge of this "boat" or any other double paddle canoe. It apears that the term refers to an open, undecked kayak like vessal. They seem to be somewhat wider than a kayak and use a double bladed paddel. Thank you.

You can double paddle any canoe that is not overly wide. I have a plywood pirogue that is 30" wide and propell it with an 8' paddle.
I have never seen a Glen-L Rob Roy in the flesh but the picture of one tells it all. It looks like it was designed by someone who only paddled on a farm pond. On any water where the wind can get at you the upjutting stems of the Rob Roy would make the boat hard to steer. The wind would press on one end or the other and try to spin the boat. The old Hiawatha style canoes with those wind-catching stems are a thing of the past. One of the reasons that kayaks have overtaken canoes in popularity is their low profile allows even old ladies to paddle without being captive to the winds and the waves.
Next is rocker. Rocker is a slight bow in the keel to allow the boat to turn more easily. Cruising canoes have very little because tracking straight is desireable. White-water canoes have a lot because survival requires dodging rocks and logs and other junk that's in the way. A white-water boat out in the open will be hard to steer if an unfavorable wind is blowing. So canoes like the Rob Roy and the Six-Hour have too much rocker and, while they may be fun to build, are not what you want if you are going to be paddling in a wide variety of weather conditions.
Look at the shapes of modern plastic canoes. Most have reasonably flat keels so both stems are well in the water when trimmed properly and their sheerlines are almost flat. They don't look very romantic but that shape has proven to be the most effective. You can veer away from that some but not by much if you are after a pleasant paddling experience.

Canoez
01-24-2011, 11:45 AM
You can paddle most canoes with a double bladed paddle, but if it was intended as a double-paddle canoe, you'll find that they tend to have the seat set low in the boat and the amidships depth is typically lower than a single paddle boat. Mac McCarthy's adaptation of the Wee Lassie style both track fairly well due to their underwater shape. Wee Lassie II is a bit better for glide and tracking due to the longer waterline than the Wee Lassie. I have a student who stretched one a bit (from 11' to 13') and is partially decking it. I'll be interested to see how this handles. (AFAIK, his design intent wasn't fully guided by the thought process...)

In terms of handling and "feel", I think I prefer the Charlotte by Tom Hill.

DGentry
01-24-2011, 11:55 AM
I like em, too.

My own Wee Lassie, in SOF
http://gentrycustomboats.com/pics/Me.jpg

And, my longer Chingadera, of S&G plywood, designed by Thomas Firth Jones. Easy to build and a very nice handling canoe - free plans for which can be found in his book "New Plywood Boats."
http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w117/alias1719/AcanoethatDavebuilt.jpg

Ian McColgin
01-24-2011, 12:15 PM
I don't think that Cuyahoga Chuck [#8] has a clear grip on the scale of the GlennL he so criticizes. It's very low. In the picture that's a small child and yes, with such a light load the child might have a hard time in a high wind, though not in the ways Chuck hypothesizes.

I've not handled the GlennL either but I've plenty of time in the very similar Culler.

First, with an adult she does settle in the water.

Second, the bow and stern give some buoyancy lift over the chop you find crossing open bays - quite valuable in an undecked boat that will be used to get someplace.

Thirdly, the windage of the bow and stern, modest as they are, are balanced. I found that once seated rightly I could bear up by leaning forward as I paddled and off by leaning back. Easy as that.

Fourthly, while not solely the result of the flared ends, these models are wonderfully easy to turn if you lean out on the turn putting the boat on her bilge and getting the bow and stern out of the water. You just don't want to lay over as hard as with a decked double paddle or a kayak.

MacGregor's double paddles had carrying capacity for camping gear and proved - continue to prove - well suited to riverine and litoral camping and exploration, as well as day romps. The wholly open boats are less likely to be used for camping but make the finastkind marsh, estuary, and such boats and most can safely take a couple feet of chop in a Strong Breeze (Force 6) if the fetch is less than a few miles. Were I to propell myself to Nantucket, I'd sooner an ocean kayak - big duhh there - but for exploring the sometimes quite open but often closed in wild places of a big sald-brackish environment like Pleasant Bay on Cape Cod, a nice open double paddle is might hard to beat on a summer's day.

Ed Armstrong
01-24-2011, 12:28 PM
I'm a fan of Ian Oughtred's designs. He has two double-paddle canoes, the Wee Rob, and the MacGregor. Both are pretty similar, with the MacGregor being slightly larger and beamier. I have plans to build the Wee Rob, which I hope to start this winter (though I think I said that last winter too). Here's a photo from Duckworks site:

http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/04/s/articles/weerob/boat2.jpg

Both designs can be built with or without a deck. Our hosts sell the plans, or you can order them direct from Oughtred.

SamSam
01-24-2011, 03:19 PM
I don't know who the designer is but it is a double paddle they have there.

http://www.sitcomsonline.com/photopost/data/803/Boat_Builders.jpg

DGentry
01-24-2011, 04:37 PM
Skin-on-frame, no less . . . even the Beav knew a good idea when he saw it!
I think I see chicken wire, hmmm.
MickG, no one interested in solo canoes should overlook the late Platt Monfort's Geodesic airolite canoes . . . www.gaboats.com (http://www.gaboats.com)

This one weighs 8lbs
http://gaboats.com/graphics/titlepic300.jpg

James McMullen
01-24-2011, 04:48 PM
Oh yeah, I built a couple of those too, but mine were real beasts in comparison. One of 'em came out at 11 pounds, and the other one at a whopping 13 lbs. I think I had changed from ash to white oak ribs for that second one.

Clinton B Chase
01-24-2011, 05:22 PM
Like this?

http://www.rogerlongboats.com/Boats.htm#Canoe

http://www.rogerlongboats.com/images/DPcanoe.jpg

This is the prettiest, most simple/elegant kayak I have ever seen. My 2 cents....

tomlarkin
01-24-2011, 05:55 PM
MickG - if you want to try it out with a very low cost and time investment, you could make a 6-hour canoe (http://www.amazon.com/Building-Six-Hour-Canoe-William-Bartoo/dp/0961039671)in a couple of weekends and a couple hundred dollars. I made a nesting set that my wife and I used for some really nice trips down rivers and around the lakes of Eastern Washington. The biggest advantage over a kayak is the ease of getting in and out, and reaching your gear.
http://donutboat.files.wordpress.com/2009/10/011_15a_thumb.jpg

Cuyahoga Chuck
01-24-2011, 06:43 PM
I have a copy of the "How to Canoe" video that LL Bean used to sell. In one section the instructor takes his whitewater canoe out into a calm section and says "this type of boat is inclined to do this". He lifts his blade and the wind spins the boat around.
I can't say whether Glen-L's canoe has that same amount of rocker but I can say I wouldn't build it to find out.

SamSam
01-24-2011, 07:06 PM
Skin-on-frame, no less . . . even the Beav knew a good idea when he saw it!
I think I see chicken wire, hmmm.

Yes, that's it. Barrel staves, chicken wire, table cloths and varnish.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t0z1IarQH-4&feature=related

Ian McColgin
01-24-2011, 07:40 PM
http://www.glen-l.com/designs/canu-row/canoe-row-images/dsn-robd3.jpg

Not excessive rocker. The GlenL has a shape that will make her safe for crossing an open bay or meeting a large power boat wake on an otherwise flat river, and she won't cock in the wind except how you control it by leaning forward or back.

A whitewater boat, whether kayak or canoe, needs agility and gains it at the expense of tracking. But just as there's a world of difference between white water v. ocean kayaks, and a rather huge difference between whitewater and river-lake bark-derived canoes, so also there's a difference between double paddle canoes meant for quiet river paddling or mixed open water use or whitewater. It's silly to wrongly imagine the behavior of one from misunderstood experience with another.

Woxbox
01-24-2011, 07:49 PM
And you can always make one out of paper (http://robroy.dyndns.info/paperc/intro.html)... and paddle 2,500 miles.

Canoez
01-24-2011, 08:25 PM
Ian,

While I can't tell how much rocker that canoe actually has from the picture, there does seem to be quite a bit of it. Perhaps the sheer is enhancing the appearance? I would agree, however that there is a large difference between white water and open water boats and that most un-decked double paddle canoes are really meant for more protected waters.

davebrown
01-24-2011, 10:03 PM
Ian: I am DYING to get some of those butternut photos, if you have any. There are lots of "based on" canoe photos on the web, but I can't find photos from Culler's boat(s). If you can dig any up I am sure we would all appreciate it. I thought my next boat was going to be the Tom Hill 14 pictured above, but I would prefer the Culler over that.

Launching two double paddle canoes:

First, the Oconee:

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2600/4233225952_b64e0f7dfe.jpg




and The Big Kitty:

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2507/4230831803_21c7f79a33.jpg

Look at that weather! Christmas Day, 2009. I started two of them on Halloween and launched them Christmas Day.

Ian McColgin
01-24-2011, 10:22 PM
Launching with brio. Brilliant.

I should have made clear that the GlenL pic is just taken off their web page. Lots of pics of light women and children paddling. None of beefy guys. I think it was to show off the flare better, because these boats - assuming they behave about as the Culler does - can take the fuller figured paddler.

davebrown
01-24-2011, 10:47 PM
I wish I was smart enough to know what "brio" is.

JimD
01-24-2011, 10:57 PM
Harry Bryan's Fiddleheads:

http://www.harrybryan.com/harrybryan/images/plans/3.fiddlehead14.6.JPG

http://www.harrybryan.com/harrybryan/images/plans/1fiddlehead10.6.jpg

http://www.harrybryan.com/harrybryan/plans.html

trefor
01-25-2011, 11:51 AM
The Fiddlehead is a neat look'n boat!

If you are looking cheap and easy, Gavin Atkin's Cinderella looks decent. Looks a bit better than a pirogue type six-hour canoe (just my opinion, that's really not saying much). The plans are free, here... http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/gavin/cinderella/index.htm

http://intheboatshed.net/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/R0010523.JPG

Trevor

MickG
01-25-2011, 12:03 PM
I wish to thank all who have responde to my inquiry concerning double paddle canoes. I would be using it oa a small lake (3 miles X3/4 mile) I can see from the replies that I should be looking at one with little or no rocker. Does any know of such an item for sale or a kit. I live in the Buffalo NY area. Thank you

Cuyahoga Chuck
01-25-2011, 12:27 PM
I wish to thank all who have responde to my inquiry concerning double paddle canoes. I would be using it oa a small lake (3 miles X3/4 mile) I can see from the replies that I should be looking at one with little or no rocker. Does any know of such an item for sale or a kit. I live in the Buffalo NY area. Thank you

At the end of the 290 across from the GM plant is Clark Craft. Here's their web site.
http://www.clarkcraft.com/
Here are free plans for a 14 ft plywood pirogue. The plans come with about 11 pages of how-to. It's cheap, nothing to look at but it works well.
http://www.bateau.com/freeplans.php
Here are some pictures.
http://www.bateau.com/boats/NC16/index.html
That's me at the end of line 1, the end of line 2, the silhoette shot in the middle of line 4 and the truck with the boats on top at the end of line 8.

JimConlin
01-25-2011, 12:40 PM
I wish I was smart enough to know what "brio" is.

A soft Italian cheese.

Kudzu
01-25-2011, 02:45 PM
Got to show off my Stonefly. I designed this one for fishing mainly and found that is a great for fishing. Otherwise I prefer my kayak(s). Skin on frame construction. I have not put it on the scales but around 35-38 lbs is the guess. No where near as light as Platts boats but no where near as delicate either.


http://www.kudzucraft.com/designs/stonefly/Imgp5717.jpg

http://www.kudzucraft.com/designs/stonefly/Imgp5680.jpg

http://www.kudzucraft.com/designs/stonefly/Imgp5714.jpg

Full size plans and frame kits are available

currach
01-25-2011, 03:02 PM
Try SelwayFisher designs by paul fisher. Lots of canoes on the site. I built the waterboy and stretched it to 15ft plus, very stable for kids but will take several big fellas no problem.
And you can car top it alone at around 70lbs.

currach
01-25-2011, 03:15 PM
trying to post waterboy canoe pic from photobucket. can anyone help?

Woxbox
01-25-2011, 08:35 PM
CLC has a kit, (http://www.clcboats.com/shop/boats/canoes/traditional-lapstrake-canoes/nymph-strip-planked-pack-canoe.html) but you're paying a lot for the convenience.

JimConlin
01-25-2011, 10:28 PM
Whether cedar strip composite as Mac McCarthy taught us, or 'Tom Hill' style lapstrake, these are elegant little boats and fun and easy to build. No home should be without a couple.

SamSam
01-26-2011, 10:02 AM
There's some free, older designs here...http://www.svensons.com/boat/

Thad
01-26-2011, 10:49 AM
I thought the WoodenBoat Store carried plans for the LFH double paddle canoe but they don't. It it shown in Sensible Cruising Designs and full size plans were sold by The Rudder magazine and should be available from Mystic Seaport Museum. The Museum list of LFH plans only shows one 16' canoe but says Design no. unknown. The design is number 57. It is dory construction, drawn in 1933.

davebrown
01-26-2011, 03:24 PM
Sorry if this is a trhead drift, but can anyone get access to the museum and photograph Butternut (I recall that it is part of the mystic collection)? I think it would be relevant to thhis thread, and further, photographs are almost nonexistent. And yes, we all know about the photos in the Culler books. I think they are beautiful, but show the boat in the water with an occupant.