Atkin Bellerophon

[Marcio Moreira]

Hello

I would like to talk about the stout Atkin motor-sailer Bellerophon. If she would be doable by a skilled amateur and if this deep "V" single shine boat in a good sea boat (I believe it will be). The intention is to do some long costal cruisers here in South America. The interest on a motor sailer is because long rivers cruisers (Amazon and Prata basins) are a must do in this side of world.

Atkin (http://www.atkinboatplans.com/)

http://www.boat-links.com/Atkinco/Sail/images/Bellerophon-1.gif
Thanks for all

[Venchka]

Looks good to me. Extra ventilation might be helpful in the Tropics and easy to do.

http://www.boat-links.com/Atkinco/Sail/images/Bellerophon-3.gif

http://www.boat-links.com/Atkinco/Sail/images/Bellerophon-2.gif

I think William Atkin said it best:


A V-Bottom Motor Sailer

Bellerophon. That is a big sounding name for a little cruising boat. It is also a very ancient name, and in many ways an excellent name. I have a tiny model of a British naval vessel. She is H. M. S. Bellerophon, one of the early ironclads, ship-rigged, half steamer and half sailing ship. And from her I have borrowed the name for this, the very latest of the family of useful small boats that have come forth from the pages of MoToR BoatinG. If not amiss, it may be of interest to record that Bellerophon is my 400th design. I presume some sort of celebration should be held on this account. Anyway here is a 25-foot auxiliary that should meet the requirements of many, many boat lovers. She comes under the classification of a boat on the small side in the matter of overall dimensions. Actually she is a roomy, wholesome cruiser having the ability to go anywhere in safety and comfort. She also comes under the especial wing of the amateur boat builder with her V sections and comparatively simple construction. Materials are of the less expensive kinds and altogether Bellerophon will have a very wide appeal.
Nice boat. Lots of cabin room. Lots of deck room. Good sail plan.

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D

[MarkC]

With a Yanmar 9-10hp diesel (1GM10) or a 14hp (2YM15) chugging along.... perfect!

I thought it would be good for rough und windy coasts.

Question of concern: what about that prop clearance with the rudder? Is it enough? And that 'gap' itself... according to designer Ted Brewer, this is a bad set-up for drag and perhaps steering. Better to have the prop-space in the dead-wood - have a bit of skeg before the rudder or at least notch only a small bit out of the rudder. Could the prop-space be moved ever so slightly back? How could this be altered?

Question 2: is that space behind the cockpit going to work? could one turn it into a galley/kitchen?

Question 3: Sun protection? Bimini, canvass awning over the boom? Perhaps a solid roof... but then again maybe just hats will do.

Question 4: I get the feeling that the American motor-sailor Fisher 25' (fiberglass) could be based on this design...maybee, sorta...

[ 05-18-2005, 04:02 PM: Message edited by: MarkC ]

[JimD]

One thing about many of the Atkin designs that bug me, including this one, is the irksome manner in which they seemed to go out of their way to reduce the cabin headroom instead of increase it. Why, on a boat of this length, with such a deep V hull form, couldn't Atkin find a way to squeek out 6 feet of headroom in the whole cabin, instead of only under the hatch, and a crouching 5'7" under the deck? He couldn't raise the deck another 5 inches at the bow? Otherwise, looks like a fine boat for someone 5'5" or shorter, and there is no need for shoal draft.

[MarkC]

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid169/p4ad50530f394dcf3359c9f91806f274b/f4150bf9.jpg


Pat and John Atkin cruised Long Island Sound in We're Here, an economical displacement-hull motorboat with sails. http://www.boat-links.com/Atkinco/Article s/MacNaughton/index.html (http://www.boat-links.com/Atkinco/Articles/MacNaughton/index.html)

Jim - good point about cabin headroom - I can only guess that to the Atkins the smaller boat type appealed, maybe to lower costs for customers:
There is a tremendous lot of charm in sailing and messing around a small boat. Folks are just learning this; because in these hard times they have to. And if this small boat has a tiny cabin, an engine, a modest rig, why then the fun of owning and playing with it is tripled. Could have been fashion of the period or perhaps they (father and son) were open-boat or small-motor-boat fans - I mean if 'We're Here' was 'their' freedom machine, their perfect boat.

There is also, acording to Atkins, the practical:

The value of being able to see ahead is often unappreciated by designers and builders, the temptation being to get full headroom under the deck house at the expense of full vision ahead.

[ 05-18-2005, 04:07 PM: Message edited by: MarkC ]

[Venchka]

They fell under the spell of one of the Herreshoff gang who said, "Standing up is for outside?"

or...

They didn't like designing boats like this?

http://newimages.yachtworld.com/1/2/6/2/1/1262104_1.jpg

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D

[MarkC]

I haven't seen a foto nor seen a reference to the Atkin motor-sailer Bellerophon. There must be some out there?

Marcio - you could be the first! :cool:

The Bellerophon - I would argue is
an economical displacement-hull motorboat with sails. Easy to build? One would need to check what detail the plans provide. Maybe you could run the plans by Roberto Barros (boat designer there in Brasil, Rio - designed quite a bit in plywood and steel) for clarification of any tricky-bits. http://www.yachtdesign.com.br/

And maybe just for interest - on the subject of motor-sailors - this guy is spanish and owns a motor sailer 'Banjer 37'. he has a motor-sailor website, a real enthusiast. He would be the one to ask about motor-sailing in general.

http://banjer37msclub.tripod.com/links.htm

[ 05-18-2005, 03:28 PM: Message edited by: MarkC ]

[Marcio Moreira]

Hi
Thanks for the awswers

A small diesel like the BM 18 Yanmar brazilian series could push this boat at hull speed.
The headroom is a concern. I am 6 ft tall.But a never sailed on a boat with full headroom :D
Good ventilation is a major concern .Dorade boxes and hatches deserves a carefuly study.
Mr Barros is a excelent designer of modern cruisers. His MultiChine 28 and Cabo Horn 35, are wonderfull boats, but they don't fit in my budget and on my 26 ft garage. And I really prefer a classic boat.

Marcio

[JimD]

Marcio, if it were me I wouldn't hesitate to build a small house over the cabin area. It would only need to be about six inches tall, say six feet long and whatever width is practical for the bow. It would give you room to stand up fully, and take a couple steps from galley to head, to berth, or whatever, without having to bend over. I wouldn't let anyone talk me out of it. I would just find a way to do it.

[Don Kurylko]

JimD,

Bill Atkin was all of 5'3" tall, or something near that! Many of his designs reflect that.

[JimD]

Originally posted by Don Kurylko:
JimD,

Bill Atkin was all of 5'3" tall, or something near that! Many of his designs reflect that.Suddenly it all makes sense :D

[Marcio Moreira]

Mark C - Thanks for the "Banjer" link.
The only modification I would like to make, is to use a gaff mainsail. Maybe with a small bowsprit, if that not ruin the boat balance.
Jim D - Maybe headroom can be increased narrowing the cabin sole, without modify cabin topsides.
Venckha, a catboat with pilot House? Ho is her designer? Antonio Dias (BUCK)?
Marcio

[ 05-19-2005, 09:58 AM: Message edited by: Marcio Moreira ]

[MarkC]

Still no-one has a foto of Bellerophon from the USA?....

On other matters:


I wouldn't hesitate to build a small house over the cabin area. Bear in mind Atkin's thoughts that:


The value of being able to see ahead is often unappreciated by designers and builders, the temptation being to get full headroom under the deck house at the expense of full vision ahead. A cabin-house may require the boom to be moved, altering the sail plan.

Marcio, I mentioned Roberto Barros only as a suggestion - only because I thought he might be qualified to advise you on Bellerophon's plans, if help was needed (probably at cost). He has experience designing with ply etc. He is in your time zone (I think?). He may be able to advise someone else? Maybe someone here could be able to help if need be.

[JimD]

Jim D - Maybe headroom can be increased narrowing the cabin sole, without modify cabin topsides.
Venckha, a catboat with pilot House? Ho is her designer? Antonio Dias (BUCK)?
Marcio
Narrowing the cabin sole might work but it may already be as narrow as is practical. Study plans might show more. The catboat picture has been posted before. It looks removable, like a hardtop dodger. The boat is from the Pacific Northwest where it can rain almost endlessly in the winter.

MarkC, Mario is six feet tall. Hard to imagine he couldn't see over a six inch cabin. Thousands of sailors see over cabins much higher. From the profile it looks like it wouldn't hurt to crowd the boom by a few inches. Edited to add: If this were a light, shallow draft trailer sailer that pushed the limits of stability, visability, or other safety issues by adding a sky scraper of a cabin I'd agree with you, but this is a deep, heavy hull with over 3,000# ballast and is virtually flush decked. I just don't see where it could be a problem.

[ 05-19-2005, 09:09 PM: Message edited by: JimD ]

[Jack Heinlen]

Billy being a midget aside, he drew at a time when there wasn't the premium placed on standing headroom there is now.

And rememeber, he drew a boat a month, year in and year out, for how many years? Many were never built. I don't know about this boat, but I've always admired it.

Almost any attempt to get six foot in this boat is going to be a disaster aesthetically. What might, MIGHT work would be a small dog house over the companionway. Basically, just a raising of the line of the companionway slide shown. Bring the house front forward a little, widen it a bit over the width of the companionway, but not much in either direction.

If you could then, also, move the galley aft, perhaps lower the sole a couple of inches, perhaps raise the sheer a couple inches, a tweak here a tweak there, and you might be able to eke out a small patch of six foot plus without spoiling the boat's looks. A removable cutting board that would fasten to your companionway ladder and Bob's your uncle!(that's Aussie for you're all set).

A place to stand to pull your pants on and to cook is good.

Otherwise, build a different boat.

She sure is handsome just the way she sits!

As to difficulty, get a copy of George Buehler's Backyard Boatbuilding. He covers building chine boats of this type in some detail. It's quite doable for a determined amateur.

Good luck.

[MarkC]

Marcio,

you wanted to try a gaff-main and a sprit. Forgive my doodling, it is crude (yes, there are no technical details included, outline only).

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid169/p469373d98b86f79a4bb1ca4bfd7bdf88/f40c61b0.jpg

Jim - was this (under) what you were thinking? Sorry, its crude, its the best my mouse will allow me. Raised house up under the boom - I have added a Bimini over the cockpit. I think the sight will be from around the house - or over the house and beware the boom.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid169/p158054d077ceb7e06f49f76af61463e5/f40c61b3.jpg

Or were you thinking more the whole-flush-deck upwards, like Rabl's 'Buddy'?

Lots of character either way, but I'm thinking that Atkin's original really has a certain 'spice'- head-room aside.

[ 05-20-2005, 01:35 PM: Message edited by: MarkC ]

[Meerkat]

I dimly recall seeing a design for a flush decker with standing headroom in one of Benford's catalogs. 35' LOD IIRC.

I think I recall his mentioning that this was the smallest practical size for a flush decker with standing headroom.

[JimD]

Jim - was this (under) what you were thinking? Yup, something like that. I think aesthetically it looks fine.

[ 05-20-2005, 07:14 PM: Message edited by: JimD ]

[JimD]

Here's a chined 30 foot Hartley with 6 feet of headroom, and probably plenty of it although painting her all white shows off her slab sided plainess.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid169/p03736991839d631d0a7811833792fbeb/f40bc705.jpg

[Jack Heinlen]

I think that Hartley hovers around some of the Bolger boxes aestetically, and has little of their pragmatic panache. What an ugly mugly!

The Atkin looks right the way it's drawn. Sticking on a major cabin structure is gonna look like hell.

But, "to each his own said the man as he kissed his cow." ;)

If Marcio is young and flexible I'd say just build the Atkin the way it is and live with the less than full headroom. It will be quite comfy except when in the galley, and on further looking I don't think my idea of moving the galley aft would work; not enough room for the settees.

Or, build a different boat.

[JimD]

The Atkin looks right the way it's drawn. Sticking on a major cabin structure is gonna look like hell.

But, "to each his own said the man as he kissed his cow." Yes, funny how different people find different things attractive. I think this Atkin design looks funny as designed. Like there is something missing, such as a cabin.

[ 05-20-2005, 09:33 PM: Message edited by: JimD ]

[Marcio Moreira]

I like the sketches, thanks MArk,

I try something similar:

http://fotos.terra.com.br/foto.cgi/nTQ88tdovjMZvPbJqYEZnwZ2m7DcvDOabcQVxXH0:dfGh/atkinbellerophon.jpg

and with a topsail

http://fotos.terra.com.br/foto.cgi/l5eQMgipYSr2Y1zj8i-2lB2Kk390Y9xyz0eLsh:vc7J_n/atkinbelleropho.jpg

I would not modify the cabin structure. The interior design, only with the hull complete and turned, I would try some alternatives.

thanks for all commentaries

Marcio

[ 05-21-2005, 08:03 AM: Message edited by: Marcio Moreira ]

[JimD]

Mario, if you decide to buy the plans I hope you post to the forum again. It would be interesting to see if the cabin sole could be lowered or if you decide to make other changes. Good luck.

[MarkC]

This is a great thread.

I had been dreaming over this boat for a while and then Marcio starts the discussion.

Alas the thread sat dormant as just about everyone crawled out of the wood-work to pay homage at the Herreschoff Quiet Tune/Araminta - Ian Outread altar/thread etc (pardon).

I thought to myself - 'but isnt this Atikins design more achievable, do-able, robust, Yeah!?'

but thanks to jimD and jack, venchka, meer etc it didnt die.

Anyways - Marcio - With those sketches you have turned her into a sail-boat! I don't know if it has the means to carry all that sail. As Atkin put it, with the sails as they are, you dont have to do too much.

You can sit deep in the cockpit, be sheltered from the winds and spray, motor along and tend the sails to adjust the boat's motion -or maybe a broad-reach?

The more I look at this design - the more impressed I am with the straight-forward, rugged-ness - simplicity and balance.

If you are, however, looking for a lager alternative, then Denis Ganley has a nice motor-sailor 'Woods Island Commuter' - plans from www.fairmetalboats.com: (http://www.fairmetalboats.com:)

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid169/pca61869f228e428137f0568f74d2c8a7/f40c56cd.jpg

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid169/p246a06352cfb290adbeef6efcbac7e22/f40c56ca.jpg

Its designed in steel - LOA - 29' 6" LWL - 23' 7" Beam - 10' 6" Draft - 4' 0" Disp'l 12,320lbs. Sail Area 469sq.ft.

Probably do-able in ply - there are also other ply plans.

It deserves a thread in itself.

[ 05-21-2005, 05:33 PM: Message edited by: MarkC ]

[Jack Heinlen]

Yes, funny how different people find different things attractive. I think this Atkin design looks funny as designed. Like there is something missing, such as a cabin. That's what living in Alberta will do.

The boat is flush decked. A wart of a cabin would be an abomination. Shall we build it out of logs? ;)

I'm glad Marcio sees the beauty of line Atkin drew. I'll be interested, if he builds, to see how he scrambles the interior.

It so much depends on use. An expansive V berth is possible forward, and that would open the aft end of the main cabin for a galley and two comfortable seats. But it wouldn't be a good arrangement if he plans to take the boat offshore a lot.

Billy Atkin put his heart and soul into his drawings, and they reflect much contemplation and wisdom. He was also open to variance. To have the galley aft, where you could at least have the companionway slide open. It would change the entire interior, because you would no longer have room for settees, but, depending on the use, it might be worth looking at.

[George.]

I think if you change the rig from this:

http://www.boat-links.com/Atkinco/Sail/images/Bellerophon-1.gif

To this:
http://fotos.terra.com.br/foto.cgi/l5eQMgipYSr2Y1zj8i-2lB2Kk390Y9xyz0eLsh:vc7J_n/atkinbelleropho.jpg

... you might need a little more mizzen area to balance that jib out on the end of the bowsprit. Of course you could just oversheet the mizzen, but then you'd be stalling it and losing drive.

Maybe a gaff mizzen might look good and balance the boat? The calculations of center of effort are not terribly hard to do yourself, and all you have to do is make sure it stays where it was on the original design.

[JimD]

Am I the only one who thinks piling on a lot of extra sail, especially high up, will almost certainly make her sail far more tenderly and invite knockdown as well? Increasing the sail plan could have far more serious consequences than adding a small house for a few more inches of headroom. I'd proceed cautiously.

[MarkC]

No - I expressed concern:


Marcio - With those sketches you have turned her into a sail-boat! I don't know if it has the means to carry all that sail. I also suggested above that plans and any changes maybe/should be passed by a yacht designer.

.....

I like the idea of a the galley in the aft section with the stove, the ice-box and other stores. It would leave space for a small center table in the main cabin - and leave the cooking smells in the rear.

[ 05-22-2005, 11:55 AM: Message edited by: MarkC ]

[JimD]

Right you are, MarkC.

[MarkC]

Interior ideas....

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid170/p2886163b187666871007c36cd6cda0cd/f3fe8272.jpg

so here is the 25'9 - Lubec Boat by Ted Brewer, Wallstrom & associates - from (40 woodenboats).
There is the two berths with fold-table, the toilet, stove, small sink, ice-box - and storage/hanging space.

Back to Atkin's Beller..

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid170/pa823d53718877dea2bba083cd7168f97/f3fe8273.jpg

Here I have put the galley in the rear section. stove, a big sink with cutting-board over it and storage shelves etc. There is a stool in the middle to sit on and cook and wash (not a lot of head-room there but easy to see from the cockpit). Stove is very near the entrance hatch - so that steam can escape.

I envisage the cockpit being quite deep - inside the cabins that would mean that under the cockpit-space would only be enough space for storage-drawers.

The shaft from the motor is also in this rear section and needs floor access.

The main cabin has the porta-potti with a curtain/partial bulkhead and curtain?, two berths with fold-table and storage drawers under the cockpit (if possible).

A thought - maybe the rear section would make a better toilet/storage area??.

[ 05-24-2005, 02:44 PM: Message edited by: MarkC ]

[Marcio Moreira]

I will don't change the sail plan without a professional revision.
I think it's possible because the relation between inside and outside balast (1600 lb inside X 1420 lb lead outside). A gaff rig on this boat could improve the down sailing performance.
The interior changes are interesting but I feel that it's after cabin is very small. For me it's a good sleeping place.

Thanks

Marcio

[ 05-25-2005, 08:22 AM: Message edited by: Marcio Moreira ]